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Dr. Drew
Bobby Brown Insists His Daughter Is Awake; The Man On Trial For Raping His Own Wife, Says Under Oath, He Did Not Do It But His Fate Is Now With The Jury; The Victim`s On-Again, Off-Again Girlfriend Is Charged With Murder; Cissy Houston Is Speaking Out Very Realistically
Aired April 20, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:07] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" SHOW: Tonight, Bobby Brown insists his daughter is awake. Bobbi Kristina has
been in a coma now for 80 days. Cissy houston just left the hospital and we will hear from her. Something perhaps more realistic. And the man on
trial for raping his own wife, says under oath, he did not do it but his fate is now with the jury.
Let us get started with "WTF," the story dominating the conversation on Twitter and Facebook. A tumultuous relationship becomes a deadly
phenomenon. The victim`s on-again, off-again is girlfriend charged with murder. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE OPERATOR: Campbell County 911.
SHAYNA HUBERS, KILLED HER BOYFRIEND IN SELF-DEFENSE: Ma`am, I killed my boyfriend in self-defense.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE OPERATOR: What did you kill him with?
HUBERS: A gun. A loaded gun in the house.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(POLICE INTERROGATION)
HUBERS: I shot him once and did not shoot again for a while, but I was watching him die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE OPERATOR: Where are you?
HUBERS: I am standing about 3 feet from his dead body.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE OPERATOR: OK. Are you sure that he is dead?
HUBERS: Yes, he is dead, ma`am. He is completely dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(POLICE INTERROGATION)
HUBERS: And, it is so painful to watch him die, and to know that I had done that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE OPERATOR: OK. What is your name?
HUBERS: My name is Shayna Michelle Hubers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(POLICE INTERROGATION)
HUBERS: But I just walked around the table and shot him where I knew he would die immediately -- and fast.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It was so painful watching him die, I had to kill him because I had to be done with my pain that I have caused by shooting him in the
first place. This man`s father testified that his son had planned a date with Miss Ohio USA 2012, that very night he was killed. Here is a photo of
her.
Jay Poston told the jury his son was concerned he would not make that date because quote, "Shayna was always around." Joining us, Judy Ho,
Clinical Psychologist, professor at Pepperdine University; Vanessa Barnett, HipHollywood.com and Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re
Perfect And Other Lies Parents Tell."
Vanessa, I guess it is an easy conclusion. But you think that the fact that he was going to date Miss Ohio that night sent Shayna just over
the edge?
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely. I mean that girl, she was beyond hot. Miss Ohio, she make the average woman jealous, but
this crazy chick could not handle the fact that, one, he wanted to break up wither her and two, that he was moving on to someone hotter. It sent her
over the edge.
PINSKY: Hold on. So, you are saying, I as not being female -- and Judy, I will get into what is going on with these ladies` personality,
which seems very, very disturbed. But you say a female would have such a rage because of that woman in that bathing suit, that would induce rage? --
BARNETT: No. Not the --
PINSKY: -- a murderous range?
BARNETT: Not the normal female.
PINSKY: OK.
BARNETT: I am poking a little fun at this.
PINSKY: OK.
BARNETT: But, I think beyond the fact that she was just obsessive over this guy and she did not want to end this relationship --
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: -- and he was moving on. It was a trifecta. It is a perfect storm.
PINSKY: And, Judy, would not you say that really what this is, is not so much that she is diminished by that woman but that woman means absolute
closure. And somebody with a personality disorder, probably borderline in this case is so obsessed with issues of going and coming and clinging and
abandonment that, that closure of the relationship representing that girl was enough to bring on the borderline rage?
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That is right, Dr. Drew. One of the key symptoms of borderline personality disorder as you said is that
fear of abandonment. People who have severe borderline do anything they can to avoid it. Not all of them resort to this.
PINSKY: No, no. Let us be clear.
HO: Then this is all be seen in a very extreme situation.
PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait. It is not fair to people with borderline disorder to even equate them with this girl.
HO: Right. It is not.
PINSKY: This is like equating them with Jodi Arias, who also has some borderline features.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: This is sort of something beyond the ordinary, way beyond of it.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Lots of people with borderline disorder can be productive, even loving partners, even.
HO: That is right.
PINSKY: They are the ones that suffer. They do not bring it necessarily in other people, but it can be associated with extreme rages.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: And if this woman also has a little bit of empathic failure beyond the usual, you heard her say --
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: "Outside is where it is happening. He is suffering, that makes me feel bad. So, I got to put an end to his suffering."
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: "Because he is going to die, so I do not hurt."
HO: Well, I am glad you brought that up, Dr. Drew, because she has these traits of narcissism, right?
PINSKY: Profound.
HO: That is all about herself ultimately.
PINSKY: Profound. Profound.
HO: Ultimately. It is always about herself. How she is going to cover the story. Even when we are now learning all of the facts of what
actually happened, he was sitting at a table. There was no aggression that was noted.
PINSKY: All right. Hold on.
HO: In terms of the observation.
PINSKY: All right. Hold on. Hold on. Did you guys have the pictures of the crime scene? We do not have them yet. Nancy just showed
them. Loni, I do not know if you saw those pictures.
But what you see is a chair with a guy slumped on the side of the chair. His feet is still under the table and the table top and the chair
covered with blood. This guy was not going anywhere. He was just shot while he sat in the chair.
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes. He was totally defenseless in the position he was in. I mean he was slid under the table, sitting like
you would sit at a kitchen table. He could not get at her. He was not a threat to her. He was not being aggressive or throwing her around in any
way. He was sitting at the kitchen table.
And, she came up to him, according to expert, the first shot was to the head and then she advanced closer and closer to him as she kept
shooting. He then went to the ground and she finished him off when he was laying there totally helpless, totally defenseless. Just to make sure, you
know, that his suffering did not bother her anymore.
PINSKY: Right. More of the interrogation tapes. Here we go. The interrogation tapes first.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUBERS: I do not know if anyone will ever want to marry me. If they heard that I killed my boyfriend in self-defense.
(LAUGHING)
It is not funny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HO: Wow.
PINSKY: Judy -- yes. Judy seems to wow. The narcissism is so incredible.
HO: My goodness. Yes.
PINSKY: "No one would want to marry me because I killed my boyfriend. I mean in self-defense."
HO: Right. Yes. You know -- "No one will ever want to marry me because I am right now possibly going on trial for murder and that is the
first thing I am thinking about, am I going to have a boyfriend or fiance at one point."
PINSKY: It is unbelievable. Let us see those crime scene photos. You guys have them now. Apparently, we do have them. I am just going to
show you what Loni and I were talking about.
There is the chair. You see the blood all over the table. I do not know if you can see the top -- the back -- Oh, this is him slumped over.
Let us see how I can make sense of this. There is the chair, the chair and table. Then him slumped over on the side to the right -- to left of that
table. He goes under the table. You can see his legs there. That is his arm, sort of flesh colored stretched forward there.
Now, these poor parents of this young man who was a -- you know, he was a -- I mean somebody you would admire. He is an attorney. He was an
up-and-coming young professional. His parents, God knows what they had to suffer through. They say their son was never violent. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LISA CARTER, RYAN POSTON`S MOTHER: He did not like people being bullied. He did not like people being treated unfairly. He always
defended the defenseless. From the time he was 6, he wanted to be an attorney.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAY POSTON, RYAN POSTON`S FATHER: People that asked me about my child, I would not say that he was beautiful even though he was or he was
brilliant, even though he was. I would say my son has a kind heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Can you imagine what those parents are suffering. While all the while this chick, Shayna Hubers, is claiming this young man was violent
domestically. He kept, quote, "Loaded guns in the house." Loni, is there any doubt about who the jury is going to believe?
COOBS: Not in my mind. But I am sure the defense is going to, you know, mount a vigorous defense that it was self-defense, try and build up -
-
PINSKY: What is going to happen to this girl?
COOMBS: Well, I am going to guess that she is going to get convicted; however, remember once we had Jodi Arias, we have to be careful about these
things. Because for a self-defense defense you usually have to put the defendant on the stand to establish why she thought in her head, she needed
to react with deadly force.
So, she is taking the stand. And, that always throws at open, is there going to be a sympathetic juror? Is there going to be someone who
says, "Oh, that is my poor little daughter. She is scared or oh, she is attractive, we do not want to convict her."
Or they may even say let us find her guilty of a lesser charge, not the murder charge. Once it goes to the jury and the defendant is on the
stand, you never know what a jury or even when juror might think.
PINSKY: Well, next up. I got Shayna`s mom, the woman that gave birth to this lovely young lady, she took the stand today. And, look at her
right after the event. Is not that lovely?
She says there was, quote, "Fear in her daughter`s voice." It reminds me of Jodi Arias` mom, hearing Jodi freaking out and wondering what the
hell she could do about it.
And, later, Bobbi Kristina Brown will have a quote, "Long life." I will tell you who said that and what that means. Tonight, her grandmother
is speaking out very realistically. I will have that after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUBERS: He was screaming at me. He had his hand on the table, and he was not completely standing up. He was like this. He was sitting. He was
like this, literally. That is when I knew he was dead, or close to it -- the twitching and that is it. I could not -- I love him -- I still, even
though it hurt, (INAUDIBLE) me loves him but I could not stand to watch him twitch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUBERS: He is very vain. And, one of the last conversations that we had that was good was that he wants to have that surgery and wants to get a
nose job. And, I shot him right here. I gave him his nose job. He wanted it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUBERS: He said, "You are just a hillbilly from Kentucky." And, I am. I guess the hillbilly came out in me, and I took up for myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Judy, Vanessa, and Loni. A 24-year-old Shayna Hubers is on trial for murder. Police say she talked to them for over two
hours without them asking a single follow-up question. Loni, she is making it very hard for her defense, is she not?
COOMBS: Oh, boy, is she ever. You know, she did ask for an attorney but then she kept talking. And, I am sure her defense attorney is trying
to argue that none of that should come in, but apparently the judge said it was OK.
But, I will tell you, Dr. Drew, what is really fascinating is when you look at her 911 tapes and the conversation that she had, this two-hour
conversation with the police and her texts, the hundreds and hundreds of texts that she was sending to him --
PINSKY: Tens of thousands.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: Tens of thousands, ultimately.
COOMBS: 75 in one hour to this poor guy and then to her friends talking about this guy. You know, it is so clear. The narcissism is so
clear and her lack of understanding of responsibility of what she did like that she is worried about having a boyfriend instead of worrying that she
might be going to prison for, you know, the rest of her life.
PINSKY: Yes, it is crazy. Well, it makes me -- I want to switch to Judy on this. Is she delusional? Could she have been manic? Because the
way she is thinking is really -- it is distorted. It is not particularly connected to reality.
BARNETT: No, no.
HO: Right. It is distorted, but it is -- It is distorted in a way that is not like the normal psychotic illness. It is more about
interpersonal relationships and certain fantasies about certain things in her control.
PINSKY: But you do not think this flood of -- she certainly does not have pressured speech.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: But this flood of talk could have been a little bit of a bipolar thing, maybe?
HO: Maybe a bipolar thing; but you know I think more than anything, the bipolar, if it is there, I think it is in the background here.
PINSKY: Yes, of course. Of course.
HO: I think that her personality issues are at the forefront.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: That is why she is such a great free association candidate. And, every other word begins with I.
PINSKY: Me, me, me. Me, me, me.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Vanessa, I know you are disgusted. We are just trying to make sense of it. We are not trying to ban her, we think it is disgusting.
We are with you.
BARNETT: No. I think it is very obvious this girl is entitled. She is obnoxious. She is a liar. She is jealous of Miss Ohio USA. She is mad
that her boyfriend did not want her anymore.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: And, if they put her on the stand, she is going to shoot herself in the foot just like she did during the two-hour interview, just
like she did when she called the police.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: And, even the dispatcher said --
PINSKY: There is Miss Ohio, here.
BARNETT: -- "Oh, you shot him again, you did not call the police first?" And, she is like, "What? Why would I do that?" She thinks she is
going to get off, because she is a pretty girl, too. Do not get it twisted. And, she is probably gotten a lot in her life and she wanted this
man. He did not want her. He wanted to move on to someone else and she could not take it.
PINSKY: And, to be fair, you know, Judy, sometimes when somebody with this kind of personality disorder, somebody who does not understand what
they are dealing with can get very frustrated and very sort of aggressive- appearing out of their frustration.
So, it is not as though what she is saying is a complete lie. You can imagine dealing with this girl with the 10,000 texts. He might be going,
"Can you get out of here?" You know, you can imagine the intensity of what -- and she interprets that in however she interprets it and then uses it as
a defense.
HO: That is right. I mean there was a family member who testified that he had told her, "Oh, my goodness, help me control this woman. She
sent me 75 texts in an hour."
PINSKY: Imagine how frustrated he would get.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: That frustration would come out as anger, naturally.
BARNETT: Right.
PINSKY: Now, the mother of Shayna testified today that the daughter and Ryan Poston had some sort of argument the night before she killed him.
Sharon, the mom said she received a call from the daughter in the middle of the night. Sounds familiar, everybody? Remember Jodi calling her mom?
The mom then got in her car and drove merely two hours to be with her. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHARON HUBERS, SHAYNA HUBERS` MOM: She was sick. She was in pain. There was fear in her voice. I was frightened for Shayna. This man is
almost 30 years old. She is 19. His behavior, he was either doped up --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE ATTORNEY: Objection, your honor.
JUDGE FRED A. STINE, CAPBELL CHIEF CIRCUIT JUDGE: Sustained.
HUBERS: OK. What?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Loni, where was that woman trying to go with this? What is this mom doing? She is doing anything to save her daughter, saying this
guy who is an attorney is doped up. What the hell.
COOMBS: Yes. Maybe she is trying to cast aspersions on the victim in any way she cannot. What really bothers me is that night, the night
before, they had gone to dinner with his mother and father, stepfather. And, they, you know -- and he had said to them, look, I got this great date
tomorrow night.
I need to, you know -- but my only concern is I got to end it with her. I have been trying to end it with her and she will not stop. And,
the stepfather said, just do it in a kind, gentle way. You know, that is all I ask of you. So, sure they went home that night and he said, "Look,
you know, I care about you but this is over. I am moving on." And, that is when she flips out, and she calls her mom.
And, her mom, you know, comes to the rescue, drives two hours through the night to be there, to hold her daughter`s hand, you know, and build up
in these fake issues in fear of this -- and what was the man doing? He was actually in his bedroom this whole time doing nothing.
And, she said I tried to get her to leave and she would not. Now, if she is really in fear for her life, why did not she just leave with her mom
at that point? And, she did not. Instead, she comes back that night when he is supposed to be going on a date, literally within minutes of when he
is supposed to be leaving on that date and she ends up killing him instead.
PINSKY: Vanessa, would you say anything to save your child from a murder charge?
BARNETT: Absolutely, but my child would never commit murder.
PINSKY: Of course not. Of course not, never ever, ever, ever.
(LAUGHING)
BARNETT: I would never raise a child anything like this. But, what I will say as a mother, if I felt my daughter was in danger, there is nothing
that would allow me to leave that house and leave her there. She would have been flung over my shoulder.
I would have dragged her to the car. If I thought this 30-year-old man was so scary and I could not leave my daughter with her, there is no
way I would have left without her.
PINSKY: And Judy, the attorney -- the defense attorney floated a PTSD theory. He said, quote, "Something happened in the relationship that she
could legitimately say that she had a post-traumatic stress disorder. She felt like if she did not kill him in that moment that she would be harmed
or killed herself.
And, look, she is not a combat veteran who sprung into action with a weapon. I mean this is somebody, she might have been -- her startled
response might have been excessive because they fought in the past. But to blame that on a murderous rage, forget it. Forget it. Would you agree?
HO: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. This makes me so angry because there are legitimately people who are battered out there.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: People who actually have PTSD from serving our country or being in some other kind of disaster.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: And, she is just jumping on the bandwagon and hoping that somebody is going to be sympathetic. And, you know what, Dr. Drew?
Somebody might, because guess who they are seeing day after day on the stand hanging out in the courtroom --
PINSKY: This girl.
HO: It is her. Nobody gets to see Poston anymore because he is dead.
PINSKY: Right. Listen, from my standpoint, my thoughts on this, this is a very, very, very sad story. And, it is a reminder that you can never
be sure what is going on in another person`s mind. You cannot be sure that other people`s minds work like yours do.
And, if you see somebody unraveling, it is not a trivial issue. Again, I am preaching this all the time, which is if you feel yourself
unraveling, if you are using substances, if you are having violent feelings, get help with that before you hurt yourself or somebody else. If
you have impulses to engage in behaviors that really could end up in a bad place for you or someone else, that is the time to reach out for help.
Admit it. It is all right.
Do not let it get to this point. This is inexcusable. Now, unfortunately, this girl is so narcissistic, that I am not sure to her
world, the world exists for her. It is her oyster. It is all for her. And, so, I am not sure that she would know enough to have the objectivity
to even care about reaching out to another person. We will see where this goes.
Next up, the dementia sex trial, the husband -- I hate this one. The husband is accused of raping his own wife. This poor man breaks down on
the stand multiple times. You see him there.
Later, Bobby Brown says to the world his daughter is, quote, "Watching him." We are going to call that out. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOEL YUNEK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You loved her.
HENRY RAYHONS, CONVICTED OF SEX ABUSE TO HIS WIFE: I loved her very much.
YUNEK: You are still smitten with her.
RAYHONS: I am still --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDNETIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: She was by all accounts happily married to her second husband, a local politician and farmer. But now 78-year-old
Donna Rayhons, who suffered from dementia and later died is considered a rape victim at least by prosecutors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, the attorney gets a great idea, "I am going to prosecute the husband for rape because he had sex with his wife."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We have a technical efforts description for this. It is bonkers. And, I am ready to say it is bonkers on
steroids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Do I think he should have been having sex with her when he was specifically told not to by the medical
staff? No, I do not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE PROSECUTOR: My question is, she did not have the capacity to consent to that, correct?
RAYHONS: I do not know if she had the capacity or not. I always assumed if somebody asked for something they had the capacity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This is ridiculous. I do not want a 70-year-old man spending his days out in jail. That is cruel and unusual.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And a waste of our money, our tax dollars. I am back with Judy, Vanessa and Loni, a segment we call "Seriously?" Henry Rayhons, the
man you saw in that tape, his fate is now in the hands of the jury. I trust the jury will come to their senses.
He is accused of third-degree sexual assault with his own wife because she had dementia and was assessed by a physician who never made an
assessment like this before who was asked by the daughters and the staff could she render consent for sex?
And, he said, "I have never been asked that, but I do not think so." No one said, do not get near this woman, you will be considered a criminal
if you do. Loni, do you think criminal charges should have been even filed in the first place?
COOMBS: Absolutely not.
PINSKY: Thank you.
COOMBS: I think his is ridiculous .
PINSKY: Thank you.
COOMBS: I think it is such an abuse of the system; however, Dr. Drew, I think it is a very important case and I will tell you --
PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait, Loni. We will get into why it is important for a second. I just felt a rush of anger when I said that. And, this
man, Rayhons, has no recourse when these excessive prosecutors are pushed aside when the jury finds him not guilty be.
He has no recourse. He cannot come back and go, "Hey, I would like to sue you guys for screwing with my reputation, for putting me through this,
for charging me, for costing me a fortune. Can he do that?
COOMBS: Well, in some states you can bring claims of malicious prosecution; however, Dr. Drew, you know, in this case it is a first case.
It is essentially unprecedented. But it is a situation that is coming up more and more.
As we know is there are more of our society in this same situation. More people having dementia, more people in nursing homes, more people
wondering can they consent, can they not? You have children deciding what the parents` sex life is going to be like.
PINSKY: But, Loni. Loni, let the medical system mill through their criteria and figure out how to do this. We will have medical ethicist look
at this. We will have neurologist assess it.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: They should have been determined in a courtroom.
COOMBS: That is right, but Dr. Drew, perhaps this is the push everybody needs to say, "Look, we cannot be handling it this way. We need
the medical profession to get involved.
PINSKY: Yes.
COOMBS: We need the nursing homes to begin up with protocol.
PINSKY: OK.
COOMBS: We need families to be figuring out, and how we need to sit down and talk about this before somebody and something --
PINSKY: Well, that is part of my concern is that this was a second marriage for both these people involved here.
COOMBS: Right.
PINSKY: The children of the woman were maybe upset. Maybe that is why there was a trial. Judy, what do you think?
HO: Well, Dr. Drew, I think you bring up some really important points here that there are these family dynamics that we do not fully understand.
And, there is often negative feelings when there is a second marriage on some level. Not every family but these some families it is tough about who
should be the person who can be closest to the person who is ill. Who is the person who should be rendering the decision making.
And, what you said about the physician who actually kind of handed this down without any prior experience and saying this offhand, this is
exactly the type of problem that I see all the time in my practice where somebody gets a kind of diagnosis from somebody who is not even experienced
to evaluate it and now that is on their record. Now, they have to deal with it. It is impacting their life, their livelihood.
PINSKY: But, this is even worse than that, Judy. There is no criteria that any of us have for this.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: Vanessa, I hear you - I see you shaking your head there. Why are you shaking your head?
BARNETT: I feel so bad for this man.
PINSKY: Of course.
BARNETT: He is literally breaking down on the stand. He never got to fully grieve his wife. They have him in this ridiculous trial. Those
daughters are little "B" words. I tried not to curse. But, they are awful human beings. These are not little toddlers or preteen girls who are mad
that their mommy got married. These are adult women who are ruining this man`s life.
I do not even understand how it got this far. And, what is he supposed to do afterwards? He does not get his wife back. He has to have
this blemish on his record. What do you do at 70 years old, if you have been accused of rape?
PINSKY: He is a politician, too.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: It almost made me wonder if there was some weird sinister motivation to bringing this all out. Now, investigators interviewed
Rayhons, this gentleman you are seeing there, shortly after the incident. And, apparently, these were secret recordings, I guess. I do not know how
they get away with that, but here they are.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAYHONS: I do not even remember that -- that night --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AGENT: Henry, I know that took place and I know that you do remember.
RAYHONS: I would guess that if I did, indeed, have sex that night, that she asked for it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AGENT: OK. And, how did she ask for it? What did she say?
RAYHONS: She says, "Shall we play a little game?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Loni, secret tapes, do people are allowed to record people in a conversation? What the heck is that?
COOMBS: Each states has different laws about whether, you know, you have to have both party`s consent to the recording. But, I will tell you,
Dr. Drew, I listened to this. I am in so much pain for this man. I mean here is somebody asking him about his sex life.
PINSKY: Yes.
COOMBS: With this woman who from all accounts, he treated her like a queen with great dignity.
PINSKY: Yes.
COOMBS: And, even all of the health care providers, they said she was always so happy to see him.
PINSKY: Yes.
COOMBS: She lit up. It was not like she was being abused or she was afraid of him or she was saying anything that she, you know, was going on.
She loved this man. You know, and they based this on the testimony of a person who was sharing the room with this woman who said she thought she
heard sex sounds but now she has changed it to whispering.
PINSKY: And, by the way, Loni, they did a forensic examination. Nice to have to put this old woman through that by the way. Fantastic! And,
found no semen in the vaginal vault. Fantastic. Thank you for putting this woman through that. That is far worse than any fondling or kissing by
her husband. Next up, more on this story and how it could affect all of us.
And, later, 80 days now for Bobbi Kristina. She has been in a coma. She has been in a coma that long. We will hear from her father, Bobby
Brown, and more realistically from her grandmother, Cissy Houston, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: And there is the surveillance video you have seen walking in, escorting his wife into
her room.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A roommate reported to the staff that the defendant entered the room, and pulled the curtains closed. She then
heard noises indicating to her that the defendant was having sex with the patient.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATTY. YUNEK: Were any of the noises that you heard consistent with sex?
POLLY SCHONEMAN, DONNA RAYHONS` ROOMATE: I cannot answer that. I do not know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE PROSECTOR: That night when you were talking to the nurses, you were talking about sexual noises, were not you?
SCHONEMAN: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Judy, Vanessa, Loni. Vanessa, you are throwing your hands up, so am I. I mean come on now. You are taking these people
in their twilight years and you are dragging them through something completely unnecessary.
BARNETT: Exactly. And, I am sure this lady is in that facility for a reason, too.
PINSKY: Absolutely.
HO: Right.
BARNETT: I mean how can you trust her testimony.
PINSKY: Absolutely.
BARNETT: But, how can we trust her.
PINSKY: Judy.
HO: Dr. Drew, I mean listen to the way she even posed the question. The way she posed that question was confirmatory. You heard sexual noises,
did not you? If somebody`s mental capacities are even slightly impaired, you are going to be more susceptible. They are like children in that way.
PINSKY: Absolutely. Of course, we are talking about a 78-year-old man on trial for raping his own wife because she had dementia. Case is now
with the jury. I spoke now -- now, listen, I want to frame this next little piece.
This is something we all need to get with here, which is that -- this population is aging in our country. Dementia is exceedingly common. Tens
of millions of us will have this thing. We need to maybe become explicit in our directives to physicians about what it is we want.
Bobbi Kristina brings up a whole other set of issues. We need to get explicit early in life, so we do not end up with family members keeping us
in a vegetative state if we do not want that.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: And, the same thing is true of this. If we want to be able to maintain a quality of life that includes us making choices, if we have
dementia, about what we eat for dinner, whether we have relations with our spouse. We need to specify that because of cases like this.
I think it is kind of unnecessary. The nursing homes are beginning to deal with this. And, I spoke to a gentleman who runs a nursing home in New
York, who has been dealing with this and is coming up with criteria. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL REINGOLD, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE HEBREW HOME AT RIVERDALE: And, the philosophy encourages intimacy. It encourages the
ability to touch, because it is one of the last pleasures in life that we give up. We ask people with dementia to make decisions every day and they
may be very oriented into the moment even if they do not remember what they had for breakfast that day.
And, that includes the ability to consent. Why would a family member want to deny the opportunity for a family member to do something that is
pleasurable? Especially while living in a long-term care facility where we give up so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Control room, I want you to give me the name of that facility that gentleman works for. I so appreciate. Hebrew Home for the Age in
Riverdale. That is the chief administrator there.
But, Loni, this is my point. So, here is a guy that is working with this issues. He is coming to solutions. He could set the standards. We
could begin as a medical system, begin to adopt some of the standards. Do we have to ruin people`s lives by putting them in the courtroom?
COMMBS: Well, you know, that is a good question, because Dr. Drew, that man, himself, says, "I have been working on these issues for 20
years."
PINSKY: It is what it takes.
COOMBS: And, nobody is listening to me.
PINSKY: Nobody listens, but it takes time for standards to develop.
COOMBS: Right.
PINSKY: They do not happen overnight. By the way, when they do happen overnight, they are always no good. Because they have to be sort of
tried on for size and worked through. Judy, I see you react to that. You agree with me on this, right?
HO: Absolutely, Dr. Drew, and you are right. We do not have one set of standards, but lots of people have been working on developing standards.
PINSKY: Of course.
HO: And, guess what? One of the most common things that everybody says who are developing these standards, whether it is researchers or
clinicians, is that one part of this decision-making has to be consistent with the values of the person who is ill.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: So, whatever you knew their prior values are. So, back to this case.
COOMBS: Yes.
HO: This wife and his husband obviously had in their value system, sex and intimate touching.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: So, why are we taking that away?
PINSKY: Loni.
COOMBS: But, that is what I want to understand, Dr. Drew, is why when that medical doctor checked the boxes that said she could no longer
consent. Why did not they never ask her, personally?
HO: Right.
COOMBS: Do you want to still have sex? Do you still enjoy it? Do you still know who your husband is? Do you still love him? I mean if I
get told, I have dementia, can someone then come in and say you are no longer allowed to be touched by anyone anymore.
I mean talking about a nightmare to be living in if you have dementia? Somebody comes in and takes the toll control away from you about what type
of physical contact you can have with your loved ones.
PINSKY: I think you are closing in on something that is why we need to specify these things early, because it becomes unclear when somebody can
process or understand when you talked to them, when they have fluctuating cognition. They may have felt in that moment that they could not go to her
with that kind of a question.
And, yet, her intimate partner, husband could say, hey, let me show you, how she interacts with me and maybe not in this moment, but there are
times when se does and I feel as though, this is something that we have done and that she wants. And, it is not up to a guy in an office, just
going, "No, she will be unable to do so. The prosecutor said in her closing argument -- Vanessa, I want you to comment about this. This really
makes me anger.
This is what she said. The prosecutor, the one who is dragging everybody through this. If you believe the defense, then should it just be
open season on Alzheimer`s patients? Yes, Vanessa, that is what we are suggesting here is that we should all rape people with dementia. It is a
slippery slope, everybody. That is what we are saying. Of course, that has nothing to do with what is going on here. It is ridiculous.
BARNETT: It is insulting to the court.
PINSKY: It is insulting to all of us.
BARNETT: That is just ridiculous. Look, people are not trying to go in and take advantage of these patients. These patients -- this man loved
his wife. That is all that we need to know. He loved his wife. He cared for this woman and he did nothing wrong. We are not trying to assault all
Alzheimer`s patients. That is disgusting to even suggest that.
PINSKY: I think that we are all in agreement about our thoughts on this case, that it is unfortunate. I had crystal in here the other day who
was telling me that she thought this man was sick and a rapist. I do not think she can be further off the mark on that.
I think this poor man is being dragged through something unnecessary. But the fact that it is happening brings this thing to the fore. It is
something we need to deal with. It is a serious medical phenomenon, medical priority that we all need to get on top of and not allow this to
happen to someone we love, our parents, our self.
And, if we do not, again, it is at our peril because we are biological. We will age. We will have these sorts of problems and be
dealing with them in the future. Let us get on it, everybody. This is a warning shot across the bow.
Next up, big developments in Bobbi Kristina Brown`s condition. Is she or is she not awake as her father insists? Please follow us on Facebook
for more on this story and others and of course our Aftershow. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: When people say they want to give it up to God, I am all for that.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Bobby Brown is just ignoring his decision. He does not want to make it.
BARNETT: He is not going to take her off the machine. He is not going to fight to keep her off the machines. He is literally going to
letting go, let God.
PINSKY: We are not letting God, because God will let her go. We are very active, Vanessa, in keeping her alive. That is not letting God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Judy, Vanessa, Loni and the story you are tweeting about most tonight. Now, according to some of her relatives, Bobby Brown
is, quote, "Awake." Let me play it for you what Bobby Brown told the crowd at his recent concert. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOBBY BROWN, BOBBI KRISTINA`S FATHER: I can say today, my baby is awake. She is watching me. So, do not believe what you read. No life
support, nothing. She is breathing on her own. She is living on her own.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, the Houston family disagrees very strongly with what he was telling that audience. On the phone, I have Legal Analyst Sunny
Hostin. She is close to the family and your sources what are they saying, Sunny?
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, what I was told, Dr. Drew, just today is that Bobbi Kristina is no longer in a coma and is no longer
sedated; however, she does still have a trach in her throat and her neurological condition has not changed over the past 12 weeks -- a little
over 12 weeks. She is in exactly the same neurological condition that she has been in.
PINSKY: So, listen, let us define -- people can be in a coma with their eyes open. They can be in a coma -- awake coma. They can have eyes
open and be moving and still have no relation of meaning with the outside world. That is what I am hearing you say. Is that about a right
description?
HOSTIN: That is about right. What I was also told was that while she will open up her eyes in the room, she does not follow loved ones and
family members around the room with her eyes. She does not respond to stimuli. She does not speak. She does not span respond to touch.
She simply is in the same exact neurological condition that she has been in for the past few months. And, Dr. Drew, this is what you have been
saying all along, that brain function just does not appear to be there. It appears to be very, very limited.
PINSKY: Yes. Thank you, sunny. I appreciate that update very much. Now, I got a bunch of Facebook posts. Angelina says, "What nasty thing do
you have to say about that Dr. Drew? You should never spew negatives and squelch hope. I believe in miracles she cannot overcome."
Shawn`s Facebook says, "See, Dr. Drew, you are wrong. God is who you should have on your panel." I am not wrong. I want to bring you, a quote
from Bobbie Kristina`s grandmother, Cissy Houston, who is the giving the clearest picture of all. Sunny has helped us out. Here is the grandma.
This is this girl `s grandmother.
Quote," I have just returned from visiting my grandmother, Bobbi Kristina in the hospital. And, while she is no longer on a medically-
induced coma, she has a tracheostomy, a hole that she breathes from in her neck and according to the doctor, she has global irreversible brain damage
and remains unresponsive.
Meeting with the doctors, understanding that she can live in this condition for a lifetime, truly saddens me. And, Bobby Brown`s lawyer
further goes on to clarify what Bobby said on stage, quote, "Bobbi Kristina`s condition has changed. There has been improvement. Yes, she
opens her eyes. She is not seizing anymore.
Doctors have indicated that she will have a long life in this state. However, Bobbi Kristina is presently embarking on rehabilitation. The
quality of her life will not be known for years to come.
Judy, the quality of her life but her condition is very predictable. She will be in a vegetative state. That is highly predictable. The best
that can be hoped for is maybe some meaningful reaching or an ability to track with her eyes, but that is a very primitive level of functioning that
people just do not seem to understand. I would not want that. That is not living.
HO: That is right, Dr. Drew. As you described, tracking, maybe a meaningful reach, those may be the top limits of whatever we are looking
at, even through a rehabilitation process. Of course, dr. Drew, it is hard for people when their own family members and loved ones are involved. And,
they want to believe that something is going to come and solve their problems and all of a sudden she is going to have a miracle.
PINSKY: No. It just does not --
HO: I mean Dr. Dr. Drew, you have probably been through this with your family members. It is hard to be the clinician and physician that you
are and still know that and have those feelings and attachments.
PINSKY: I have been through this with family members. Vanessa, Do you have a comment too. I will tell you my story after the break.
Vanessa?
BARNETT: Well, yes, I understand what you say, as a clinician we have done this for multiple days. I get that. But, can you not be a doctor
right now and can you be a dad? Can you see this from Bobby Brown`s point, a view and and understands where he is coming from as a father.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: Not as a doctor.
PINSKY: Yes. I will do it as a son after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: In Bobbi Kristina`s case, there is almost no brain function, things like breathing and swallowing all out and out for good.
ALICE BENJAMIN, REGISTERED NURSE: They look comfortable. They look peaceful but actually there is nothing peaceful about being on life
support.
PINSKY: That is right.
BENJAMIN: There is so many things going on.
PINSKY: That is right.
BENJAMIN: And, actually, the patient could be in a lot of pain and could be suffering.
(END VIDEO CLIP0
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is how we play God, not by withdrawing care but by keeping people in suspended animation for extended periods of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Judy, Vanessa and Loni. Of course, we are talking about Bobbi Kristina Brown, who is now off of the medically-induced coma.
So, she opens her eyes but she has no meaningful relationship with the outside world.
She still breathes through a tracheostomy because she cannot swallow and do those sorts of basic functions that are out for good, as I said.
And, Vanessa, before the break, you asked me to stay off my stethoscope and try to imagine being a father in this situation, right?
BARNETT: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, I was a son in this kind of situation. My father had a massive brain injury and I looked at his C.A.T. scan, I thought, "Oh,
my God, I know what this means." He and I had discussed things like this. And, I knew if people went in and rescued him it would be exactly what he
would never want.
It would not be a meaningful existence, even if he survived it. And, so, I literally was pacing the hall, Vanessa in the hospital, thinking oh,
my God, some cowboy is going to come in and try to evacuate this bleed or do something.
This is a horrible. This is a fatal disastrous situation but somebody could make some crazy attempt to keep him alive because it is not specific
in his directive to physicians, another warning for us all. Keep these directives very clear what physicians are supposed to do if you get into
situations where somebody might keep you alive in a state you do not want to be in.
I was the only representative there. I was anguished, but for the grace of God, a neurosurgeon came in and he looked at my entire family and
he said, look, there are neurological catastrophes and there are fatal. There are severe events, catastrophic events and fatal events. And this is
a fatal event. We do not want to do anything here.
And, I was relieved in some way. I mean, it is a horrible thing to go through. But I was relieved that we did not get into a situation like what
Bobbi Kristina is in. It is horrible to be a family member when somebody is left like this and the family never grieves. They just stay in this
suspended state of near grief and longing to salvage them and get them back.
And, it is just -- it is just the most painful thing in the world. It is why I am so passionate about this. Judy, I will give you a few sections
here to support me on this. I know you have seen people go through this. It is because we do not give people the experience of what this all means,
what they are looking at, what the reality is of situations like this.
HO: That is right, Dr. Drew. And, as you mentioned, the grief process does not start until you let them go. And, that is the most
important thing for this family, is to start that grieving process.
PINSKY: But, now, she is going to survive. She is going to live in this state. Vanessa, any thoughts on what I just said? I got about 15
seconds.
BARNETT: I just think maybe -- first of all, I am sympathetic to your situation. We experienced something very similar with my father, but I
think when you are a dad in that situation --
PINSKY: It is tough.
BARNETT: You expect the parents to go first.
PINSKY: I get it. "Forensic Files" begins now.
END
