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Video of U.S. Marshall Snatching Woman's Cell Phone; Is It Lawful for Law Enforcement to Take Cell Phone; Investigations Into, Protests Against Freddie Gray Death; Nazi Oskar Groening on Trial in Germany. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired April 22, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:30:44] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The U.S. Marshall Service the latest law enforcement agency embroiled in this incident of unnecessary roughness. This is all because of this pretty shocking piece of video. We'll play it for you. You be the judge here. He's got this woman. Shows this deputy, marshall, snatching this woman's cell phone right out of her hands. This is in the Los Angeles area. Then you see him smash it to bits on the ground. The woman was recording police activity. Here you go. Grabs it, tosses it down.

I've got CNN national correspondent, Kyung Lah, live in L.A.

You talked to this woman in the video. Why was she rolling on this in the first place?

KYUNG LAH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you think about today's use of cell phones. Beatriz Paez is a special needs teacher at an elementary school. She has two younger children. She's always got her cell phone with her. Several houses away, she sees some incredible police activity. She says it was a large number of police officers with automatic rifles. It was her instinct to start recording. She was also mindful of everything we've been talking about here on CNN, about citizen video and it making a difference when it involves the police. She was so far away, she was surprised when one of the large officers came up to her, snatched the phone, threw it on the ground, and then stomped on it.

Here's what she told us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEATRIZ PAEZ, SPECIAL NEEDS TEACHER: I thought he was going to do something to me, to harm me. I didn't -- I mean, I automatically protected myself, like trying to move away from him, but as I saw him approach me, because he's huge -- I'm only 5'2" -- I thought he's going to beat me up at the least.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LAH: She does still have the cell phone in her hand, but she hasn't been able to retrieve the video on it. What the U.S. marshall who was involved in that altercation with her didn't see is the neighbor across the street who recorded the entire thing -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: Does the woman you spoke with who we see here in the video, does she have any plans of file anything kind of suit?

LAH: She and a civil rights lawyer -- she did hire a civil rights lawyer. They've already gone to the Southgate Police Department. They filed a complaint. They are asking that the police investigate this. But we spoke to the local authorities. They say they're not exactly sure how to proceed at this point because you're talking about a federal agency, they're local police, even though it's in their turf. Do they then investigate the U.S. Marshalls? They're still trying to sort all of that. And she is also thinking about filing a civil lawsuit.

BALDWIN: What are the U.S. Marshalls saying?

The U.S. Marshalls are saying, yes, they will confirm one of their deputy, U.S. Marshall was involved in this. He is seen on the video, and they are investigating this -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right. Kyung Lah, thank you so much.

Danny Cevallos, I'll bring you in, criminal defense attorney, CNN legal analyst.

You were watching the video. You've seen it probably a few times. I guess my first question would be, under what circumstance would it ever be lawful for police to do this, to snatch a cell phone from someone?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It wasn't too long ago that police were routinely arresting people for shooting cell phone videos or detaining them or -- and the law is relatively new in this area because in the past, it was viewed as interfering with police activity. The law is quickly settling in the favor of citizen photographers. As long as you're in a public place, you're free to videotape the police. Police are often told, hey, be aware, you're probably going to be videotaped in this modern age.

BALDWIN: Given that, when you hear they're considering a civil rights suit, on what grounds would they have there?

CEVALLOS: Well, there are a number of different -- I mean, the seizure under the Fourth Amendment. The possible touching. The possible assault. There are a number of different options but would have to wait and see what exactly the government's excuse is.

And I have to say this. One of the interesting things about the U.S. Marshalls is they have a very different mission than the police. You can suddenly feel the police distancing themselves from the federal authorities in this case. Federal marshalls are not exposed to the public as frequently as a general beat cop is. Their mission is apprehending fugitives, things like that.

(CROSSTALK)

[14:35:04] BALDWIN: So they're not used to seeing people with cell phones.

CEVALLOS: Not only are they not used to people videotaping their activities, their activities like this one here are high adrenaline activities. They are possibly worried about someone coming out and shooting in a situation like this. So not to make any excuses for them, but it's interesting to think about the different mission of the U.S. Marshalls and how this sort of training might have just gone through the cracks.

BALDWIN: Danny, thank you.

CEVALLOS: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Next, to this with protesters demanding answers in the city of Baltimore, focus is now turning to the police transport van in which Freddie Gray was placed before he died. What happened after those van doors closed? We'll take you live inside the back of a similar police van just get a better understanding of protocol, what may have happened, what it looks like. A lot of questions here. Stay with me.

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[14:40:12] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Searching for answers and for justice in Baltimore right now after this 25-year-old black man died in police custody. Protesters are set to take to the streets again a couple hours from now. We also know the Department of Justice is investigating how Freddie Gray suffered a severed spinal cord after police took him into custody on April 12th. Some of the incident was caught, as you can see here, on cell phone video. But what still remains a mystery is what happened before this video starts rolling and after he's placed in this prisoner transport van.

We just wanted to get a closer look inside one of these police vans, just to give us all a little perspective.

Captain Steve Fore, from DeKalb County police in Georgia is here to show us his police vans.

Just to be crystal clear, this isn't the same van. It's similar.

Captain, thank you so much.

Let's begin with why would, if you're an officer and you're rolling up on a situation and you have someone you want to take into custody, why use one of these vans versus a patrol car?

CAPT. STEVE FORE, DEKALB COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: We typically use one of these vans in situations where we believe we'll have more than one arrest or multiple arrests. That way we can take multiple prisoners to the jail without having to tie up officers for an extended period of time.

BALDWIN: Got it. So you're anticipating multiple arrests. Would you please -- do you mind just showing me the inside, opening those doors for me?

FORE: Sure. Inside the prisoner transport van, we're able to transport ten prisoners total, five on each side. The dimensions of the van is 10 feet deep by five feet wide with a metal partition down the middle. The height is approximately four feet.

(CROSSTALK)

FORE: I'm sorry. Go ahead.

BALDWIN: No, I'm just noticing -- so there's one half of the van, which you're about to half into, and there's another half. That's a metal partition down the middle.

FORE: Correct. That way we have the capability of separating prisoners if we need to. And once the transporting officer takes a prisoner inside the van, the van is equipped with ten seat belts all the way down. So typically a prisoner would be handcuffed behind their back. The transporting officer would then seat belt the prisoner into the van for safety. Our public safety director, Dr. Cedric Alexander, as well as all of us, are always very concerned with the safety of the prisoners we're transporting. The van is equipped with air-conditioning and heat as well as interior lighting. Interior lighting is so that the transporting officers can view what's taking place inside the van through the partition.

BALDWIN: Are there cameras inside at all?

FORE: No, there's not any cameras inside the transport van.

BALDWIN: If you were to be a suspect on one side of the van -- let's say you have two people in there. I know in another instance we're referring to, there were multiple suspects. Could one person on one side of the metal partition hear what's happening on the other side?

FORE: It is possible to hear audio sound on the other side. It's not a soundproof wall at all.

BALDWIN: OK. So total, you were saying, maybe ten suspects could pile into this van. Maybe five and five. And there are seat belts.

FORE: Yes, each one is equipped with a seat belt. As the prisoner would be entered into the van, the very first prisoner would be moved all the way to the end. They would be lined in one at a time on each side like that. Maximum of five on each side.

BALDWIN: Do you ever worry about altercations among any of the suspects on either side, or is that not an issue since they're likely handcuffed and strapped in?

FORE: That's typically not an issue because they are secured as well as strapped into the position on the bench.

BALDWIN: OK. I'm going to stay with your picture, Captain.

Thank you so much for just walking me through this. This helps us, understanding what it would look like when a suspect is placed in one of these prisoner transport vans.

Let me now bring in another officer. Steven Rogers is a retired police lieutenant from Nutley, New Jersey, Police Department.

BALDWIN: Lieutenant, and let's take another look inside that van, and as we walk through, you know, you've driven?

STEVEN ROGERS, RETIRED POLICE NEW JERSEY POLICE OFFICER: I haven't driven it, but I've been in transports like that. The officer explained it well, but you brought up a good point, Brooke. If there was a camera in there, we would not be here today discussing this. And one of the objectives of a transport is to make sure that not only is the prisoner secure, but the prisoner is safe. We don't know what went on in there. We don't know if the seat belts were fastened. We don't know if at some point in time the driver of the van had to stop short and the fellow fell and got hurt. There's a lot of questions that need to be answered, and the only people who are going to be able to answer them are the driver and the other officer.

[14:45:04] BALDWIN: And I'm wondering, too, because when you look at the tick tock, the timeline from that morning, you have Freddie Gray taken into custody at 8:40 a.m. 8:42, requested prisoner transportation wagon. That arrives. At another point, a prisoner was placed -- or I shouldn't say prisoner -- a suspect was placed inside the van. That's why I was asking. I'm wondering if that other suspect, even if he was on the other side, could be a witness.

ROGERS: That's a great question. I know that the officers did say they're handcuffed and almost very secure. I've arrested prisoners and put them in police cars and somehow they wiggle their way out. It's good that they have a petition, but, yes, that other prisoner could have possibly heard something.

BALDWIN: That's one question I have. The second question is, we also saw in some of this recent video that after they were in the prisoner transport van, they stopped because they placed leg restraints on Freddie Gray. Here you see him. He's being dragged. I can't quite tell if he's able to stand whatsoever or not. They place him in the back of the van. Sometime later, they stop and place these leg restraints. Let me ask you, why would you place leg restraints on someone?

ROGERS: You would place leg restrain restraints on them if they're out of control. He's face down, pushed into the van. The fellow should have been taken to hospital immediately. He's being placed down in the van. Is he rolling around the van? Is he trying to get up?

BALDWIN: You're making an interesting point. Are there cases in which you would not sit a suspect up, arms behind, and strapped in? Would you ever place someone face down in the van? I ask that because depending on how the van is driven, it could further exacerbate an injury.

ROGERS: You'd make a great detective. Absolutely right. Here's a guy that's probably in a lot of pain because of the injuries. You can't sit him down because of the pain. So you have him prostrate on the ground. You're going to make him as secure as you could. How are you going to do that? The leg restraints. That's possibly what happened. The police officers need to come forward and say, look, this is what happened. No malice intent. We did the best we could with the tools we had. They've got to actually tell us what happened.

BALDWIN: So there would be officers in the front of the van. We saw the holes, for lack of a better term, from where the driving position to the back. They obviously would have seen and heard what was happening. They then would know what he was doing and why he needed the leg room.

ROGERS: If he's rolling around -- and look, we're only making assumptions based on little information we have. If he's prostrate on that floor, they're making turns, he's rolling around back and forth, and if he had an injury prior to that, that was only exacerbating the injury. You get the leg restraints because that's all you have left to secure him. And that's what they tried to do.

BALDWIN: And that's what the family wants to know, what happened while Freddie Gray was in police custody.

Lieutenant Steven Rogers --

(CROSSTALK)

ROGERS: It goes back to training.

BALDWIN: That's what everybody keeps bringing up.

ROGERS: It goes back to training.

Thank you so much.

ROGERS: You're welcome.

BALDWIN: I really appreciate it.

ROGERS: You're welcome.

BALDWIN: Next here, at 93 years of age, this man is on trial for being an accessory to the murder of at least 300,000 Jews at an Auschwitz Concentration Camp. He has admitted he's morally guilty but will he be sentenced to prison? We'll talk about that next.

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[14:52:23] BALDWIN: A 93-year-old ex-Nazi, called the Accountant of Auschwitz, is now standing trial for his role in the Holocaust. Oskar Groening told a German court, while he's morally guilty, he took no active part in the killings that left 300,000 people dead. Instead, the former record keeper would tear through the luggage and belongings of death camp victims, confiscating money and their jewels before they were sent to the gas chambers. Prosecutors argue Groening was an accessory to these mass murders he observed, including one chilling detail he offered in court. Groening said he saw fellow S.S. agents slam a little baby against a truck just to stop the baby's cries, killing this little child.

David Marwell is director and CEO of the Museum of Jewish Heritage here in New York joins me now.

David, a pleasure having you on.

For people who don't know these record keepers, these S.S. gatekeepers, who were they? What were they doing then?

DAVID MARWELL, DIRECTOR & CEO, MUSEUM OF JEWISH HERITAGE: There were about 6,000 guards, if you count all of the people who ever served at Auschwitz. Auschwitz was a massive complex. There were three main camps and some 40 sub-camps. The guards were there to keep the prisoners controlled, to accompany them to labor details, to keep track of them, to register them, to discipline them. There's a whole range of duties that the guards were assigned.

BALDWIN: He's 93. Why is he on trial now?

MARWELL: Well, it's a complicated story and a complicated question. 20 years ago we'd never see this trial. The German justice officials and authority have reinterpreted the approach to these kinds of cases. In the past, they had to prove an actual crime with witnesses, documents, and eyewitnesses. We saw in your last segment how difficult it is to determine what happened last week in Baltimore.

BALDWIN: Right.

MARWELL: Here we have a case that took place, you know, more than 70 years ago. How do you put together a criminal case under German criminal law that can meet the standards? So it was a very difficult standard. Now the standard is whether you were a participant in a system of persecution, if you could prove you were a guard at the camp, then you could be accused of accomplice, being an accessory to murder.

BALDWIN: So what has he been doing these last many decades?

MARWELL: I'm not entirely familiar with all of his activities, but we know he's been rather outspoken about his activities.

BALDWIN: Speaking about his role.

MARWELL: Yeah, so reportedly he had heard someone deny that the Holocaust had ever occurred. He said, no, I did, I actually participated and this was my role. So unusual --

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[14:55:05] BALDWIN: What do you make of the fact he's come out and for years been very outspoken, saying, I did this?

MARWELL: I think it's partially an indication of how little he feared prosecution. As I said before, it was very unlikely that he would ever have been prosecuted before this change of the interpretation in the law. So he felt that he had some moral responsibilities, he said in court today, that he bores moral guilt. Legal guilt was a question of the court. From his own point of view, there was very little likelihood he would have been prosecuted in the past.

BALDWIN: Now because of this change in laws, that could change.

MARWELL: Change in the interpretation of the law.

BALDWIN: I know you don't know all the difficult names or who may be in this courtroom, but what I've read, family members, there have been gasps in court. It's been an incredibly emotional process.

MARWELL: You can imagine the family members of victims of the Holocaust witnessing someone who participated either directly or indirectly in the deaths of their loved ones. You can imagine the highly charged situation and the level of emotion. So sure, as any victim would respond to a person that was associated with the murder of their loved ones, it's a rather human reaction, I think.

BALDWIN: I cannot imagine actually. I can't even begin to imagine what those people must be feeling and going through.

David Marwell, CEO and director of the Museum of Jewish Heritage, thank you so much for coming in. I really appreciate it.

MARWELL: Pleasure. Thanks.

BALDWIN: Next here, more on this developing story here, this midair emergency today. This flight has to divert, making this emergency landing in Buffalo, New York, after at least one passenger loses consciousness. We're learning more about what exactly happened.

Also, more on the investigation here into the death of this 25-year- old man in Baltimore whose spine was severed, went into a coma and ultimately died a couple days ago after this encounter with Baltimore police. We'll speak with a reporter from "The Baltimore Sun," coming up.

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[14:49:45] BALDWIN: Top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

We have more details just coming into us on this midair emergency over New York State. It was this United Express plane operated by Sky West. Had to make this emergency landing in Buffalo, New York, after leaving from Chicago after what the FAA is calling pressurization problem. This plane plummeted 28,000 feet in a mere three-minutes' time. And we now know at least one passenger lost consciousness.