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Dr. Drew
Verdict in Dementia Sex Trial: Not Guilty; Shayna Hubers Sent Over the Edge Due to Jealousy of Miss Ohio; A Secret About Shayna Hubers; Details About The Naked Twister Mom`s Case. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 22, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:07] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" SHOW: Breaking news. We have a verdict in the dementia sex trial. Not guilty. The
nightmare finally over for 78-year-old Henry Rayhons. He was accused of sexually abusing his wife because she had dementia and could not render
consent. We are going to hear here from his son exclusively in just a minute. But, first, I want you to look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOEL YUNEK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Did you have any sexual intimacy at all the evening of May 23rd in the new room with Donna?
HENRY RAYHONS, CHARGED WITH THIRD-DEGREE SEXUAL ABUSE TO HER WIFE: No. She was not in any mood to have anything at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: And, there is the surveillance video. You see him walking in, escorting his wife into her
room.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A roommate reported to the staff that the defendant had entered the room and pulled the curtains closed. She then
heard noises indicating to her that the defendant was having sex with the patient.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: One doctor told Mr. Rayhons, I do not believe her to be capable of consent, so you may not have sex with her?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Do I think he should have been having sex with her in there when he was specifically told not to by the
medical staff? No, I do not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WRIGHT: This guy, I think is sick.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is ridiculous. I do not want a 70-year-old man spending his days out in jail. Let us stop it, everybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We the jury find the defendant, Henry Rayhons, not guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me to discuss Anneelise Goetz, attorney; Judy Ho, Cinical Psychologist and professor at Pepperdine University; Crystal Wright,
political commentator at Conservativeblackchick.com. Crystal, I know you have been hard on this guy. So, my question out to you first, did the jury
get this right?
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I do not think the jury got this right, but I know you are probably pleased, Dr. Drew. And, I know -- we
know Mr. Rayhons is pleased, because it looks to me we have a rapist who got off for violating his wife.
And, I think what is interesting is, that poor Donna Rayhons is not here to testify. Right? She is dead. And, even if she was here, she had no
cognitive ability to tell us what happened.
PINSKY: Right.
WRIGHT: But you know, it is what it is, Dr. Drew. I think this is a bad day for dementia patients in my opinion. And I think as a society, we need
to value intimacy more than sexual activity.
PINSKY: I am not sure that that is not been made a clear statement, because intimacy was obviously a part of this relationship and there was a
sexual component and that was what was at issue. Well, after the verdict was read, Mr. Rayhons spoke briefly to the reporters. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INTERVIEWER: What was their support like throughout the trial? The stress of what this was like for you.
RAYHONS: It was awesome. They were by my side all the time. It was awesome.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INTERVIEWER: What were your thoughts when the verdict was read? What were your immediate thoughts?
RAYHONS: The truth finally came out.
DALE RAYHONS, SON OF HENRY RAYHONS: Let us go home, dad.
RAYHONS: Yes, let us go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Crystal, I got to get back to you. You are under my skin now a little bit. You have no sympathy for this guy? The discussion is being
had now. Now, people are going to talk about whether or not they should be clarifying these issues between parents, between spouses.
Let us go work this thing out. This poor man, does he have to be the sacrificial lamb and spend your taxpayer dollars for ten years in jail?
This looks like a dangerous guy to you?
WRIGHT: I do not know if he is a sacrificial lamb. I will agree with you, there is a grey area in this case. And, watching that video of Mr.
Rayhons` breaking down, I do believe that he loved his wife.
But, you are right, it is starting a discussion, Dr. Drew, because my mom is having a discussion with me about this very thing. Thanks to your show.
And interestingly enough, she said, Crystal, if I lose it -- if I lose my cognitive ability, I do not necessarily want your dad kind of doing that,
you know, hanky-panky with me.
PINSKY: Good. Great. Fantastic.
WRIGHT: And, I think this is good. But, also, the Alzheimer`s association, interestingly enough, Dr. Drew, has not weighed in at all on
this case. They will not take a side on this case. Which tells us that I think part of what you are saying and part of what I am saying is true,
right? Neither one of us are right. You know, I think it is worth a conversation.
PINSKY: What is right is your mom for having this conversation. What is right is you for being a caring, loving daughter and executing this.
WRIGHT: Yes.
PINSKY: And, talking to your dad and putting -- memorializing this and putting this down. Anneelise --
WRIGHT: I do not know. Wait a minute.
PINSKY: What?
WRIGHT: I do not know if I talked to dad about it. I have talked to mom about it. I mean not to be flippant about it, but I think -- look, we can
all agree. If somebody -- I think we all know what consent is, Dr. Drew. There is different ways to give consent. I am still not convinced that
Donna Rayhons had any ability to give consent even with her hands.
PINSKY: OK. Well, that Anneelise, that is a separate issue. What is consent in somebody that has a chronic medical condition. We have asked
many of the spouses of some of our guests here and the male spouses were like, "OK, I give you consent now. That is fine. Whatever it is, do not
worry about it."
In fact, Sam`s husband -- I have had her tell the story a couple times. He said, "Wait a minute. You mean, I will not recognize you and you will be
just some hot chick I do not know. Sign me up. I am fine. This is fine. I will be OK with it, I am sure, provided I do not look like I am
resisting."
So, Anneelise, what do people need to do to document or understand whether someone with dementia is actually consenting?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: You know, we are going into new ground here, right, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: But, the best thing that you can do is -- I feel like the society for whatever reason is always hesitant to do, is write it down and address
it before it becomes a problem. You know, people do not want to enter into prenups before they get married because they think they are going to get a
divorce. They do not want to enter into a new kind of health care power directives, because they think they do not want to foresee themselves in
that situation.
PINSKY: Right. No one believes it is going to happen to them.
GOETZ: This is the time to do it.
PINSKY: Absolutely, Anneelise. Judy, I saw you shaking your head at crystal. What were you thinking?
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Dr. Drew, this issue of consent in somebody who is medically ill like this woman here is very
complicated.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: We talked about it a lot. There are not really great guidelines. However --
PINSKY: Really, there are none, really.
HO: There really are not.
PINSKY: This physician -- I mean there might be various institutions might tried to set up some guidelines, but there is no standard. There is really
no standard for this yet.
HO: That is right. And, because dementia is a progressive illness, somebody can have fluctuating cognition.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: So, one day, they might be able to render consent verbally. The next day they might not.
PINSKY: Yes, what if somebody like Sam`s husband renders consent when he is, you know, 60. And then at 85, he is demented and feels irritable one
day and OK the next, but you cannot really read that irritability. This is going to be an ongoing conversation.
HO: Exactly. But, one of the things that I think is most important is we have to respect whatever value system that individual had prior to their
deterioration. So, people who have known that individual, even the doctors if they saw them earlier in the illness.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: So, if this was a part of their relationship, the intimacy via sex, they should be allowed to continue that even if she cannot verbally say, "I
want you to have sex with me in that manner."
PINSKY: I am just thinking my friend Crystal. Crystal, I cannot stop thinking about this. Help me out here. This kind of --
WRIGHT: I do not understand --
PINSKY: You do not understand what? Go ahead.
WRIGHT: Well, I do not understand why you cannot understand my perspective.
PINSKY: No, I can. No, no, I can. That is why I am struggling here.
WRIGHT: OK. But, wait a minute.
PINSKY: Which is -- because I do not want there to be open -- here is what it is.
WRIGHT: Right.
PINSKY: I do not want open season on people that cannot render consent or cannot defend themselves. Are you kidding? Nor do I want people doing
things, to use your word that are disgusting or yucky. I do not want that. I do not want this to be sort of a standard that is just OK. I agree with
you.
Intimacy per se is the priority here. But, you of all people, this is why it is under my skin. You want our government getting in the middle of
this. You want our taxpayer dollars being spent on this time? Is this really the way our government should be spending it`s time and energy? Do
not you want the medical system, the professionals kind to work this out?
WRIGHT: Well, two things. I want people to do what we all have spoken about, which is sign your medical directives now --
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: -- while we are all healthy.
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: None of us want to think about the end of life, right?
PINSKY: Well, we should be.
WRIGHT: We should have wills set up --
PINSKY: Listen. That should be --
WRIGHT: -- we should, right.
PINSKY: It should be as beautiful as the rest of our lives.
WRIGHT: But, that is because -- Right. But, society is overly is focused on youth. OK? So, that is good. We need to be having this, putting it
down in writing. But, I think when it comes to sex in dementia patients, here is how I look at it. So, if we are saying that Mr. Rayhons was in his
right because Donna and he had sex before she got sick.
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: Then I guess if Donna was in a coma, you guys would be cool with him having sex with her then. To me it is the same idea.
HO: It is not the same idea.
WRIGHT: And, I do not think -- I think people can consent -- people can consent.
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: They have ups and downs in Alzheimer`s, but they can consent.
PINSKY: Listen. Of course that is not what I am saying. I am not saying that. Are you sure you did not go to law school, Crystal? It is a
slippery slope argument. I only hear that from my attorney friends.
WRIGHT: Well, but --
PINSKY: But, I got to go to break. I got to go to break. I am not saying that, obviously. I am not saying unconscious patients should be having sex
with their spouse. I am saying, people that can decide if they want ice cream or cookies, or French fries or a lean meal, you know, they should
make a consent of other experiences other than their cognitive expressions. That is all.
Next, we will hear from the son, himself. The son of Mr. Rayhon is here exclusively.
And later, Shayna Huber. This case is getting a lot of attention. Was she sent over the edge because she was jealous of Miss Ohio whom you see on
your right? What motivated the murder?
And, you are going to find out something about Shayna. A secret about Shayna that shocked even me. There are couple things that shocked me
tonight. You will hear all of it after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We the jury find the defendant, Henry Rayhons, not guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INTERVIEWER: What was their support like throughout the trial? The stress of what this was like for you.
RAYHONS: It was awesome. They were by my side all the time. It was awesome.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Anneelise, Judy and Crystal. We are talking about Henry Rayhons, who is found not guilty today of having sexually abuse his wife
because she could not consent as a result of her dementia. Joining me on the phone is exclusively is Dale Rayhons. Henry is dale`s father. Henry
Rayhons` son here with us. Dale, how is your father doing tonight?
DALE RAYHONS, HENRY RAYHONS` SON: A lot better than he has in the last eight, nine months. He is relaxing at home tonight, going to probably get
a good first night sleep he has had in a long time.
PINSKY: Dale, what do you think this was all about? Just bottom line?
DALE RAYHONS: To sort it all out, it is difficult to figure out, you know, if it is a mixed marriage, if it is the Alzheimer`s; if it is, you know, a
conflict with the nursing home, if it is with the state. I am not exactly sure. All I know is it culminated into something huge that just wore, you
know, having to get picked on bad. And, it was just horrible. It is horrible.
PINSKY: What was your reaction when they read the verdict?
DALE RAYHONS: It was like you had been holding your breath until you are ready to pass out and you were able to breathe. It just dropped the -- it
was like the adrenaline was running 90 miles an hour through your system. And, it is just a different feeling. It just takes your breath away.
PINSKY: I want to play a bit of the prosecutor`s closing argument for everybody. Have a look.
DALE RAYHONS: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN KRISKO, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: I bet somebody says, "Oh, but I feel sorry for him. He is 78. You know, he got up there and he loved
her." OK. Why does that mean he is not responsible for his own actions?
I certainly hope there are not too many other elderly people out there being victimized because if you follow Mr. Yunek`s logic, you have just
said, "It is open season."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dale, how do you think the prosecution handled the case?
DALE RAYHONS: Throughout the whole thing or just at the end?
PINSKY: Well, I will give you a chance to answer both.
DALE RAYHONS: For one thing, I do not think the case ever should have been brought up. When the report, the allegation was made, our local police
department in Garner and the sheriff`s department -- it is kind of like Joel said.
They did not get evidence from dad. They did not go right to his place, collect underwear evidence. To him, that made him feel that even the local
police did not feel there was a crime that had been committed.
PINSKY: I want to go to -- hang on a second, Dale. I want to go to my panel. Anneelise, to you, the same question. Do you think there were
issues here? That logic at the end, I could not follow that closing argument very well. He loved her, therefore, but it did not go anywhere.
GOETZ: Dr. Drew, that closing argument was pathetic first of all.
PINSKY: OK.
GOETZ: What the logic that she went after was essentially to say, `If you do not convict this guy, then people with dementia are at risk.` No! All
it means is that you did not do a good job of proving your case. That is like saying to have a murder victim go free, a potential murderer that now
it is ok to murder people.
PINSKY: Right.
GOETZ: The law is still on the book. And, if there actually was a case that met the facts that you needed, where someone was taking advantage of
someone, someone did not have the ability to consent and you could actually prove it -- I mean, she could not even prove that they had sex that night.
PINSKY: Right.
GOETZ: She could not even meet the first test.
PINSKY: Right.
GOETZ: It is a horrible lack of evidence. To watch this woman go through it, it was a sad state after fairs.
PINSKY: And, Dale, I want to put your seatbelt on. I am going to have my friend crystal Wright ask some questions.
(LAUGHING)
DALE RAYHONS: OK.
PINSKY: if she has any. She felt this was not as -- she was not as sympathetic to your dad as perhaps I was. Go ahead, Crystal.
WRIGHT: Dale, my question is, why when your father -- and you can correct me if I am wrong, but I understand there was a meeting with the nursing
home staff, your father and Donna Rayhons` daughters, and they said that they told your father that she was not capable of having sex.
So, why would your father -- did that register and why would he continue to have sex with her when the doctors said, you know, "We just do not think
she knows what is going on with respect to that aspect of her life." That is my question.
DALE RAYHONS: OK. To play it back and per testimony in the court, the care center made up that statement after they had concerns raised by the
power of attorney or Donna`s daughter. So, it is the care center that actually got all those things put together on the care conference.
And, the one daughter had made a secret recording, which we listened to, we just kind of, you know, briefed over it but then probably about a week and
a half ago I sat down and listened to the whole thing because it was secretly recorded. And, to me that terms is there is a little bit of
intent behind it, why it was secretly recorded.
But, to go down through the whole care center conference and they get down to the question, can Donna consent to sex? And, they get to that statement
and dad interjects and says, "I think I know what you are going to talk about. It is not a problem." They moved on and never talked about it.
They never discussed it. They never told him what that meant.
PINSKY: OK. Go ahead, Crystal.
WRIGHT: Yes. No, I just going to follow up and say, but the doctor -- I do not know if it was made up. I mean even your father from what I saw
when he testified, your father said, he was not quite sure -- he was not really sure of donna is ability to have, you know, to consent is what I
thought your father said on the witness stand. Right?
So, your father was even unsure about her cognitive ability to agree to sexual activity. And, I guess, my question is, again, you know, the
doctor`s testimony in the nursing home, I thought there was a doctor who testified who said that, "Hey! She cannot -- she does not have cognitive
ability to agree to sex." So, it just seem like, why pursue it?
PINSKY: OK. Guys, we are not going to retry the case right here.
WRIGHT: Yes.
PINSKY: So, here is what I want to do. I want to the put a stop to this conversation for the moment. I want to release Dale. And, Dale, I want
you to at least take back to your dad this thought, will you?
DALE RAYHONS: Yes.
PINSKY: Thank him from all of us for going through something very unpleasant that will elevate this conversation. He is done a service to a
lot of people. Crystal herself had a conversation with her mom about this very issue. This is now a conversation that people will have and he has
moved this forward to allow us to help protect people who do not want this.
DALE RAYHONS: I totally agree.
PINSKY: And, help us deal with people to have more quality of their life should they want to do this sort of thing. Got it?
DALE RAYHONS: I totally agree. I just wish it would not have been him.
PINSKY: Well, listen. It was what it was and we thank him. OK.
DALE RAYHONS: I appreciate that. Thank you.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you very much.
Next up, how this trial impacts you, what I am talking about here and everybody in the country.
And, later, the naked twister mom`s case. Her husband has a response. And, we are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Do you could think criminal charges should have been filed in the first place?
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Absolutely not.
PINSKY: I felt a rush of anger when I said that. And, this man, Rayhons, has no recourse when these excessive prosecutors are pushed aside, when the
jury finds him not guilty, he has no recourse. He cannot go back and go, "Hey! I would like to sue you guys for screwing with my reputation, for
putting me through this, for charging me, for costing me a fortune.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Anneelise, Judy and Crystal. And, we are talking about Henry Rayhons found now not guilty, as I predicted, for having
allegedly sexually raped his wife. Anneelise, does he have recourse?
GOETZ: No, he does not have recourse, Dr. Drew. And, I love that intro, you kind of recommending that he use the legal system. Because usually Dr.
Drew, I feel like you are attacking the lawyers. You are saying do not use the legal system. And, if being abused --
PINSKY: No. I --
GOETZ: So, I love that you want to --
PINSKY: I hate lawyers until you need one, then you love them.
(LAUGHING)
GOETZ: I know. So, I like that shout out. But, no, unfortunately he does not. What, we have is a prosecutor that was, you know, abuse their
prosecutorial discretion and took a case, where there was not any evidence to take it.
PINSKY: It breaks my heart when you say that, because this man -- it is literally like a -- I know Crystal, you disagree. I understand. But, when
people do that with the legal system, it is destroying people. It is destructive to them.
I would rather have somebody. I have heard this from people who have been drug through cases like this, they would have rather be physically
assaulted. It would rather have somebody with a machete come after them than have to be dragged through this for months or years, Crystal.
WRIGHT: Well, is it interesting that you are equating the violation of a dementia patient, you know, in the lawsuit and the charges that were
brought against her husband.
PINSKY: Not guilty.
WRIGHT: Wait. Wait.
PINSKY: Not guilty.
WRIGHT: -- with the frivolous lawsuit. This is not a frivolous lawsuit. But, let us go back to basics what troubles me a little bit is throughout
the course of the discussion about this case, I feel like more people are taking the side of Henry Rayhons, who had 100 percent of his mental
faculties, right?
But, yet nobody seems to be questioning -- taking the side of Donna Rayhons who was severely cognitively impaired. Alzheimer`s patients, we do not
know what is going on in their head. So, I do not think it is cool to have sex with them unless we get a verbal, "Yes, I want sex."
HO: No. That is not the way --
WRIGHT: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: Judy, go ahead. Judy, go ahead.
HO: I am sorry. That is not the way that we actually render consent and evaluate consent, Crystal. Mental health professionals are actually
supposed to do a comprehensive evaluation of how dementia patients render consent for a variety of different decisions.
PINSKY: How about medical tests.
HO: Some of them are medical.
PINSKY: Medical procedures.
HO: That is right. Medical procedures. What they are going to do in terms of how they execute their will.
CRYSTAL. They are --
HO: No. Crystal, I am not finished. I am going to tell you that there are, actually, other types of consent that you render like what you are
going to eat for breakfast, whether or not you want to be touched, whether it is a hug or sex, and we do not have one standard way of doing that.
But with somebody who has dementia, they can absolutely render consent for other activities without having to speak that sentence in that order. I
want to have sex. That is absolutely not true. And, this is an important case, but I feel like you have some of the facts wrong.
We do not know that Henry has 100 percent of his cognitive faculties. We do not know how far that she was demented at that point, because nobody
gave her an evaluation.
WRIGHT: But you are assuming --
PINSKY: Crystal. Crystal.
WRIGHT: Right. But, let make an important point. You just said we do not know if Henry has 100 percent of his faculties.
HO: Nobody evaluated him either.
WRIGHT: OK. Right.
HO: So, nobody evaluated either of them.
WRIGHT: But you are assuming -- wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let us go back. But, you are assuming we do have an evaluation of Donna Rayhons.
She was at the end --
HO: That is not what I said. I said that nobody evaluated either of them.
WRIGHT: Well, let me quick play -- she was evaluated. But, I do not want to go back to debating that. But, listen, she was evaluated --
HO: She was not fully evaluated.
WRIGHT: You are saying that --
HO: Somebody said that she was evaluated. Crystal please.
WRIGHT: But, you are saying that --
HO: This is what we do as mental health professionals.
WRIGHT: I think what is interesting --
PINSKY: What is interesting?
WRIGHT: She was evaluated by a doctor and people testified in court --
HO: But, they did not actually fully evaluate her, Crystal.
WRIGHT: OK. I understand that.
PINSKY: Crystal. Crystal. Crystal.
WRIGHT: Can I finish something really quick, because you -- OK. So, you are saying that it was OK that Henry -- we do not know if he is been
evaluated and we do not even know if Donna has been evaluated. Even though she was diagnosed with Alzheimer`s, but it was Alzheimer`s. Look, there
are verbal cues that people say.
PINSKY: Hang on.
WRIGHT: But I just think that you are taking the side -- you cannot have one argument and have it apply one way to Henry and another way to Donna.
Donna was not --
HO: That is not what we are doing.
WRIGHT: That is kind of what you said.
Ho: No.
WRIGHT: You said, "We do not know about Henry`s cognitive ability," but it was OK for him to screw Donna.
PINSKY: OK.
HO: No, Crystal.
PINSKY: Hang on. Hang on. Hang on.
HO: I am sorry. That is not the facts.
PINSKY: Hang on. I got to give you my thoughts first then we have to arap this conservation up. Henry Rayhons is not guilty. OK. Let us just start
with that. The man is not guilty. The man has been through a lot. And, we all have elevated this conversation. Let us stay with what is positive
here. There is no doubt about that.
Please, people you love, go talk about their directive to physicians,which is something each and every one of us should have. God forbid, should we
end up like Bobbi Kristina or should we end up like Henry Rayhons` wife, our wishes are clear and in writing. And, by the way, revisit it every so
often, because your feelings may change with time. Please everybody.
Include it in that now if you wish, how you could like to be touched, how you could like to have your physical well-being. Let us say you are
severely cognitively impaired, and how your sensory experiences should be honor. How your quality of life should be maintained and honored. It is
what we really strive for.
The physician here was not a mental health professional. He was a probably an internist working in a nursing home. Was asked a question he had never
been asked before, can somebody in these conditions render consent for sex? I do not what I would have said in that condition. I would have said, "I
do not have criteria for this."
I would have consulted with a mental health professional like Judy. I predict she probably could not do it, really. She would improvise because
we do not have standards and we need them. It is up to us, the medical professionals to come up with these standards.
Now, this conversation needs to keep being had. Thank you, Mr. Rayhons, the Rayhons family for elevating this conversation, because now we are all
talking about it. I honor also what Crystal is saying. We need to protect the people that are the most helpless amongst us. There is no doubt about
that.
Do not pretend that he everybody magically would want to be in the position of maintaining their physical intimacy with their spouse necessarily. If
they cannot render consent, they cannot. Let us agree with that.
Next up, a woman who police say did not shed a tear after admitting to killing her boyfriend. This lady, we got a lot of different information
now on her, we are going to -- Judy and I cannot wait to tell you about this. But, when she shot him allegedly in self-defense and then he seemed
to be suffering, she had to make sure she killed him all the way. It got to me.
And, later, twister mom. We got the more on that scandal tonight. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHAYNA HUBERS, KILLED RYAN POSTON IN SELF-DEFENSE: But I just walked around the table and shot him where I knew he would die immediately -- and
fast.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPIRIT CLANTON, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: She talks about this man like he is a dog or a horse that she is putting out of his misery.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 OPERATOR: Do you need an ambulance? Have you been injured?
SHAYNA HUBERS: I am not injured, ma`am. I was thrown into the side of the couch.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 OPERATOR: So, he slammed you into the couch, but you do not have any injuries?
SHAYNA HUBERS: I do not have any injuries. I was just very frightened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEDAGHATFAR: That 911 operator, I do not think it was being very professional. It seemed as though, she was cross-examining this woman.
The victim was taking medications and those medications caused anger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It turns out it was Adderall and a short acting benzodiazepine. Even the adderall made him agitated. The xanax would bring him down a bit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Anneelise, Judy and Crystal and "WTF." The story that is dominating the conversation on Twitter and Facebook. Shayna Hubers
charged with murder for shooting her boyfriend six times. The defense team rested today but not before calling a forensic psychologist and a neighbor.
Anneelise, why the neighbor?
GOETZ: Well, the neighbor was their trump card, right? She did not take the stand and argue her self-defense. So, instead they call the neighbor.
And, the neighbor said, they heard an argument. They heard scuffling and then they heard what was the gunshots.
And, so, this is the first time that we are really seeing that true self- defense claim or self-defense evidence I should say. Because it is going to verify or confirm what Shayna has been saying this whole time.
PINSKY: Did it?
GOETZ: So, this was their big moment.
PINSKY: Did it? Was it effective?
GOETZ: I think that it was it was not effective as merely putting her on the stand. It was good. It was not a home run, but it is always good as
the defendant to be able to have someone come in and confirm your credibility, confirm your story.
PINSKY: All right. Police say that Shayna was emotionless during her interrogation, she never shed a tear. To sort of contradict that, the team
put on a cell mate and a couple mental health experts. Here is one of these mental health experts, the defense`s own psychologist. And, Judy, I
want to get into this with you. This is pretty telling. Go ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ED CONNER, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: She was very distraught. She was depressed. She would vacillate between being emotional and tearful and
then she would become very subdued and almost flat.
What she reported there was some sexual trauma in her childhood. She had a history of alcohol abuse and was in remission because she was incarcerated
for prescription medication abuse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Judy, this guy, he is a defense mental health professional and he sits down and he lists everything you and I have been speculating about
this woman. The sexual abuse, which puts her at risk for borderline personality. Then he goes on to say she has narcissistic and historionic
features, a.k.a. borderline.
There were psychotic process, meaning at times she would really disconnect from reality. The flipping and flopping in her mood that she was manic. I
mean this girl is severely, severely ill from a psychiatric standpoint.
HO: That is right, Dr. Drew. And, kudos to the psychologist, you know. It does not matter who is paying him he is going to tell the truth.
PINSKY: Wow!
HO: And, obviously, he is uncovered lots of gems for us here.
PINSKY: What I wonder, Anneelise is, if the defense, A. Knew what they had done and if, B. The prosecution was able to run with it. Because this
tells you everything you need to know.
GOETZ: I know. I mean, if I am the prosecution, I am sitting back in my chair and laughing all the way out of the courthouse, right? Because this
is -- this hardly ever happens that you have the other side`s expert bolster your case. But that is essentially what this guy did.
He sat down and said, "You know, this is the woman that really cannot be trusted." You know, do not -- because right now, all the defense is trying
to do is make the jury believe her. Believe her story, believe her mindset and this guy comes in and says she is narcissistic. She is, you know,
potentially bipolar. Why would they believe her? It was horrible for the defense.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes. And, Crystal, I have not really heard your thoughts on this case yet. I mean none of those diagnoses make somebody a killer. They do
not. But, they do explain how someone can claim self-defense.
And then, you know, with a perfectly straight face then say, "Yes, and it was upsetting to me to see him writhing there. So, I had to make sure he
was dead. I had to really then kill him.
As opposed to, if it was self-defense, shooting him, stopping the threat, calling 911 to get some help. No. "He is unpleasantly, uncomfortably
suffering here. I did it. I got to kill him like a horse that is broken its leg.
WRIGHT: Look. No doubt this doctor gives a lot of help to the young woman and I think when you look at the fact that from what I read, she said he
was twitching after she shot him -- what? In the chest and in the face, so she had to stick it to him one more time.
I think her demeanor when she called 911 gives credence to the fact that she is crazy. Right? But, we also know, Dr. Drew, that we can find
medical -- I do not think she -- has she been examined by this doctor.
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: It is unclear to me -- OK.
PINSKY: No, that was for the defense.
WRIGHT: So, she was examined by the doctor. OK.
HO: Right.
WRIGHT: But at the same time, people who are calculating, she could also be playing a little game here. I mean I have seen the crazy defense
before. We all have seen crazy defense fall apart.
PINSKY: They are not making that. They are not making that, though. But, I understand. They put this guy up there to make the case she was
suffering so much.
WRIGHT: I understand that, but he is saying that -- Right. But, he is now, he is interjecting a potential new line for the defense that she is
crazy.
PINSKY: But they rested. The defense rested. Well, I do not know that, that is --
WRIGHT: Well -- but it puts the poison in the minds of the jurors is what I a saying, right? So, now they are saying, "Well, maybe she really was
unstable, even though the defense has rested its case." But, what I am saying is she could be also putting on a really good act.
PINSKY: She is getting so close to Jodi right now, Judy.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: It is so interesting.
WRIGHT: Right. Exactly.
PINSKY: I got to go to break real quick. But, she is coming close to Jodi Arias. And, I want to give you an example. Judy and I -- you and I talked
about before the show, which was this psychotic thinking. This is how she could also say, I gave him a nose job. I just did.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: I shot him in the face, gave him a nose job. That is crazy thinking, that psychotic process.
HO: Yes. As you were mentioning before, it is not so much a narcissistic thing maybe. It is more of a psychotic concrete process. He asked for a
nose job, so I shot him in the nose.
PINSKY: So, I gave him a nose job. Next, the victim apparently taking prescription medication. The victim. We will talk to you about what that
could mean and whether or not that might help Shayna`s case. Please follow us on Facebook for more on this story and others as well as our after show.
We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID MEJIA, SHAYNA HUBERS` DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You have no idea whether or not she is guilty or not, do you?
CECILY MILLER, SHAYNA HUBERS` JAIL MATE: I know what she told me.
MEJIA: OK. And, so, from that you decided that she had no remorse and that is why she is guilty. Am I right or am I wrong?
MILLER: Yes, if somebody tells you they pulled the trigger to somebody`s face, they are guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE PROSECUTOR: Does she ever at times laugh about certain parts of the incident that happened on October 12, 2012?
MILLER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE PROSECUTOR: Which parts did she laugh about?
MILLER: She laughed about shooting him in the face and giving him a nose job he always wanted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AUDREY BOLTE, MISS OHIO USA 2012: We reconnected through Facebook and then we started texting back and forth. And then planned a date to meet up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Anneelise, Judy and Crystal. Friends, family, jail mates and Miss Ohio, all testified in the Shayna Hubers`murder trial. The
case could go to the jury soon. Miss Ohio 2012, Crystal, Audrey Bolte is seen here in video from NBC.
My question, Judy, is that -- well, let me just ask this. Apparently, we have some texts. This is who he was going to see that night. And, so, we
all started thinking maybe that put her over the top. Can you guys show me the texts, so I can read those? Here it comes. Here are the series of
texts from Shayna to her friend. Look at this.
"My love for Ryan turned to hate." And, then there are two messages about another guy who she was secretly dating. "It is going to be hard for me to
choose one day between him and Ryan. One means a future and one means being with someone I love who does not love me so much." She, the whole
time -- that this guy was just trying to have one date with Miss Ohio, she was hooking up with somebody else. Judy, does that surprise you.
HO: No, it does not. Because, we have discussed before that she has an extreme fear of abandonment.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: So severe that she rather reject the person before they rejected her. So, she already had her plan "B" in place. And, then when she realized
that he was about to move on, really move on with another woman, then really basically everything got taken off her, her impulses took control.
And, said, "I would rather get rid of this person and let no one have him." And, this is kind of a psychotic process, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes. Right. Another psychotic.
HO: There is some mania there.
PINSKY: Right. Some weird, weird, hard to understand process. But Crystal, we are not defending her. We are not saying this is a defense,
Judy and I are just trying to understand the human experience. How could somebody think this way? It is so bizarre.
Now, as far as he is concerned, a toxicologist testified that he had both Xanax and Adderall in his system, which is an unusual combination. They
are saying that the Adderall might have made him aggressive. Some people get aggressive on Xanax, so that is very unusual.
And, I will tell you, I do not want to in any way attack the victim here, but Crystal, Adderall and Xanax are what my addict patients go after. Has
anyone brought up that he might have been using something? Would that make a difference anyway?
WRIGHT: I do not think it makes a difference the way she savagely -- you know, she is claiming, "Oh, you know, I shot him six times in self-defense.
I really wanted to make sure that those last couple bullets stopped him from twitching, because he was dying to slowly for me."
PINSKY: God, this bothers me.
WRIGHT: You know, I do not think she is -- well, it bothers me because it sounds like we are talking about a made for T.V. movie. I think this woman
is very calculating. I do not think -- look, a lot of women have been put over the edge when they find their boyfriend going after somebody else,
even though she did not really want him. She was kind of ambivalent whether she wanted him.
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: But Miss Ohio wanted him. Miss Ohio started to want him, right? Maybe. And, that is when I think she -- I am not buying into she is a
psycho excuse. Right? I think she knew exactly what she wanted to do because she told one of her girlfriends, "What do you think if we are at a
gun range," apparently -- what? Ten days before she killed him --
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: -- in self-defense or whatever. She was at a gun range with him. She texted her friend and said, "You know what, I could probably stage, I
think, that I killed him, but ha, ha, I was really joking." I mean nobody -- I do not joke like that about guys that I dated.
PINSKY: No, you do not. But you are not psychotic and you are not borderline and is not crazy like that.
WRIGHT: Right.
PINSKY: And, that is just how she is.
WRIGHT: But, I mean are we making --
PINSKY: What? No excuse.
WRIGHT: No. No. But I mean I kind of feel like today we are making a lot of excuses for people who behave really, really badly and want to get out
of it.
PINSKY: No excuse. No excuse. There is no excuse for whatsoever. Anneelise, how is this going to play out?
GOETZ: You know, I think what is interesting, we are talking about these text messages. We have also seen that there was another guy in her life,
Patrick, that she has identified as -- was it Patricia?
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: I think in her phone. And, I think the defense is taking this to try and bolster their self-defense argument, to try and bolster, "OK, this
is how Shayna seed him -- how she saw Ryan. She saw Ryan as the kind of guy that was going to look through her phone and be possessive and freak
out, if he thought she was dating someone else.
PINSKY: Therefore he needs to be killed. Forget it. Stop it, everybody. That is no good. No good. Twister mom up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The incident report reads Lenhardt felt asleep and woke up at 3:30 in the morning to find her daughter`s 16-year-
old boyfriend having sex with her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANETTE: Now, if this had been the dad and he had awakened having sex with a 16-year-old girl, we could be talking about something different.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I bet you, if we look back into her history, she probably grew up in a lot of trauma.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANETTE: I am so sick of this. I am so sick of these irresponsible, stupid parents that screw up the lives of not only their own kids but all
these other kids that their kids have interactions with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Anneelise, Judy and Crystal in a segment we call, "Seriously?" It is a mother of five arrested for having a partying with
teenagers at her home using pot, alcohol, having sex with and around these kids. And, a surprising number of viewers say -- these are our viewers
say, the party was not the problem.
Crystal, I will let you have at this. Benjamin on Facebook says, "I used to party with moms like that. Cool moms who hosted parties but stayed
sober enough to take every kid`s keys away and not let nonsense like this happen." Oh, my god.
WRIGHT: And, you know, my response is what Danine said. Sick, sick, sick. I am sick of this crap. Adults should have to go through licensing
procedures before they have children, in my opinion. I mean she was showing teenagers how to use sex toys.
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: I do not know how she was raised, but this is irresponsible. And, I am so over these excuses that we allow adults to have for being
irresponsible. Something happened in her childhood, blah blah this and blah blah that.
PINSKY: Not an excuse. Not an excuse. But, how about the idea that there are people out there that say, "She let it out of control. She should have
sat back and let them use and have sex among themselves. Then she would have been a good mom." That is just crazy.
WRIGHT: Well, look, when I was growing up I went to plenty of parties where parents were sitting up stairs in the den and the kids had a Kegger
in the backyard. And, we were kicking back, drinking -- I was not drinking but my friends were drinking. This is in high school. Under age. So,
now, 20 years later we have escalated, parents are kicking it up with the kids.
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: Watching them have sex parties, right?
PINSKY: Yes, yes.
WRIGHT: Look. That is the problem. Benjamin is the problem, whoever tweeted that. It is a problem.
PINSKY: And not only is it a problem for the kids, Anneelise, those parents are on the line for anything that happens during that party. They
are contributing to the delinquency. They are civilly and criminally responsible, are they not? And, the fact is, they are the ones that should
be the most concerned that none of that is going on.
GOETZ: Right. Because it is their pocketbook that is going to be on the line, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: And, I mean at this point in time, I am concerned parents watching the story and thinking, "Oh, I have kids over but it is nothing like that,
you know? They have some drinks. It is no big deal. It is not naked twister mom.
PINSKY: Listen, but taking the kids --
GOETZ: They are just as liable.
PINSKY: Right. Taking the keys is not your only responsibility. Every single -- Judy, correct me if I am wrong -- unwanted outcome for adolescent
whether it is a pregnancy, and unwanted sexual content, an STD, a fight, an accident, you find alcohol.
HO: That is right. That is a social lubricant. And, it leads to a bunch of other negative outcomes as you were talking about, Dr. Drew. This is
not an excuse for parents to relive their teen years. You do not get to do your own high school over with your own high school children. No, no, no.
PINSKY: No. Listen. My thoughts are very clear on this. If it were good for kids, we could encourage you to do this. It is bad for kids. It is
bad for you. Do not let it happen in your house. You are taking a massive risk with those kids and with your own pocket booth as Anneelise said.
"Forensic Files" begins now.
END
