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E.U.'s Plan to Help Migrants; The Life of a Human Smuggler; Turkey Denies Armenian Slaughter was Genocide; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired April 23, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: saving lives with their values and credibility on the line, will E.U. --

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POPE FRANCIS (through translator): In the past century, our human family has lived through three massive and unprecedented tragedies. The first,

which is widely considered the first genocide of the 20th century, struck your own Armenian people.

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AMANPOUR: Controversial. My interview --

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Under pressure to find a convincing way to stop the epidemic of drownings in the Mediterranean, European leaders are in Brussels for an emergency

meeting and they should shortly have a summit agenda to tell us about.

Despite his country being blamed for putting an end to Italy's search and rescue program, the British prime minister seems to be making a U-turn now.

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DAVID CAMERON, PRIME MINISTER, GREAT BRITAIN: What we're dealing with here is a real tragedy in the Mediterranean and today's meeting is going to be

about saving lives.

Now of course saving lives means rescuing these poor people, but it also means smashing the gangs and stabilizing the region.

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AMANPOUR: Away from Brussels, boatloads of people are still being plucked from the sea and brought ashore in Italy, while in Malta a funeral service

was held for the dead; 24 people whose names and whose histories we don't know; all, though, were looking for a better life.

Europe is being urged to fulfill its moral obligation to save lives in the very first instance. And with me now to cut through the politics is

Alexander Betts. He's the director of the Refugee Study Center at Oxford University.

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AMANPOUR: Professor, welcome to the program.

ALEXANDER BETTS, OXFORD UNIVERSITY: Thank you very much.

AMANPOUR: We shortly should hear what Europe has decided.

But what can they do and what should they do?

BETTS: Well, they've been having a meeting in Brussels today that builds on an earlier meeting this week in Luxembourg. And really the focus of

that meeting seems to in very much on smashing the gangs of smugglers and traffickers.

The problem is I see that as a missed diagnosis of the problem. It's quite a misunderstanding. Yes, smugglers are involved. But smugglers don't

cause migration; they respond to an underlying demand.

And so I think people need to recognize the larger context of this.

AMANPOUR: So the larger context, as many people say, is you've got to fix the point of origin, fix the conditions that force these people out of

their countries.

But what about saving lives? I mean, the only reason that politicians are in Brussels today having turned back the very successful search and rescue

mission is because of boatloads drowning.

What must they do right now? Reinstate search and rescue?

BETTS: They need to immediately reinstate search and rescue along the lines of the scheme under Mare Nostrum that was in place until November

2014. They saved over 100,000 lives last year. And the problem is what they're proposing today in Brussels is to reinforce the existing scheme,

Operation Triton, but the head of the European border security agency, Frontex, has himself come out and said Frontex doesn't have a mandate to do

this, and Operation Triton doesn't have the capacity to do search and rescue at that level.

AMANPOUR: Yes, because Triton is just a border control operation.

Let me play for you what David Cameron said about what they want to do and let's not forget that British politics, maybe other European politics, are

being pushed and pulled by anti-immigrant sentiment.

This is what he said after saying that he's going to send a warship and a couple of other parts of military hardware to the Mediterranean.

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CAMERON: Of course, under the right conditions -- and that must include the people that we pick up and people we deal with -- are taken to the

nearest safe country, most likely Italy and don't have immediate recourse to claim asylum in the U.K.

When these tragedies happen Britain is always there and this time will be no exception.

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AMANPOUR: So Professor, it's another case of not in my back yard. Yes, we'll try to help but for goodness sake, we won't bring them here.

The U.N. special rapporteur on human rights has said actually all the rich European countries should take in a lot of people.

What must Europe do?

What can it do?

BETTS: The solution has to be found in international cooperation, protecting refugees and many of these people are refugees from countries

like Syria, Eritrea, Somalia, they're fleeing vulnerability, the persecution.

What we need is to recognize a shared responsibility. At the moment, no one in Europe wants to increase the number of refugees they take. But

there are 3 million Syrian refugees in the world. Most of them are in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan. We have to resettle more to Europe. The

number resettled to the U.K. is dismally low.

AMANPOUR: What would happen if they came here? As you see this very populist sort of anti-immigrant sentiment in quite a lot of countries, it's

ugly. Some people call it xenophobic but others say actually we might be able to have a need, these migrants. They could actually be contributing

to the strength of our economy rather than the opposite.

BETTS: We need courageous political leadership to articulate to the public the difference between refugees and other categories of migrant. Refugees

need and deserve our protection and they contribute often to the economy.

In research we've done in Oxford based in Africa, we've been able to show that refugees under the right conditions can contribute to the economy.

They're often entrepreneurs; they often have skills, talents and aspirations. But the policy framework enables or constrains that as a

possibility.

AMANPOUR: What about this other thing? You heard what Prime Minister Cameron says and others are saying it now, let's smash the smugglers. So

first and foremost, destroy the boats. On the Libyan shores maybe. But the Libyan authorities, who are in charge of those shores, say, no, not

without our permission.

Is that a good idea, smashing the boats?

BETTS: It's a very militarized approach to the problem. And I think we need to realize that it won't address the underlying causes.

AMANPOUR: But it might stop some of these smugglers using those boats again.

BETTS: What it will do is prevent them using those boats. But it won't destroy the industry. It'll mean poorer quality boats come onto the

market; the prices will rise. More people will be exploited and probably more people's lives will be jeopardized. So I think, yes, we can take

action against smugglers. But we've got to recognize that, like a war on drugs, you might tinker with the conditions of demand and supply and the

price. But you won't get rid of it unless you address the underlying demand conditions.

AMANPOUR: Well, again, how to attack this epidemic of crime really. The piracy epidemic off the Horn of Africa was dealt with with a joint task

force, the head of IOM, the International Organization for Migration, said that kind of operation needs to be put in place to stop these traffickers.

Is that possible even?

BETTS: I think the piracy initiative in the Gulf of Aden in response to Somalis, was very effective. But it was a different context. It was about

criminality. It was about piracy. This is quite different. This is about an underlying displacement crisis around the world, where refugees and

desperate people are coming. And even if we take a militaristic response, it won't make the smugglers go away because the demand conditions will

still be there and people will continue to try to come because they have very little alternative.

AMANPOUR: All right. Professor Betts, stand by, because we're going to turn to the Italian journalist, who has really done so much work to get

into the heads of these people smugglers. He has spent a huge amount of time, many years, investigating this story and he's written a book. It's

called, "Confessions of a People Smuggler," and he joins me from Milan.

Giampaolo, welcome to the program. You have talked to about 12 of these people.

What is it that they say to you about their trade?

GIAMPAOLO MUSUMECI, AUTHOR: They consider themselves as a business man. They are very smart and clear a business man. They can be of serve to

Europe. They have served the behavior of the European Union. They sundalose (ph). They sunda (ph) vulnerabilities of the borders and of the

laws (ph).

But their work is based on the fact that there is a big absence here, the absence of Europe. Europe doesn't give the answer to the migrants and to

the asylum seekers. Europe doesn't -- does not provide the service which is provided by the smugglers.

MUSUMECI: Eritreans, Somalis, Syrians, they pay $10,000 to make this journey and to ask for political asylum. So that the absence of the

Europe, the absence of the answer was feeding this criminal business.

AMANPOUR: Giampaolo, what do they say when they now see, after all these years of taking these thousands of dollars from these migrants and then

watch them drowning offshore?

Do they have any conscience or is it just about money for them?

MUSUMECI: Well, it depends on the smuggler. We met a smuggler in a legit (ph) called al-Douri, the international, al-Douri is working with the

Libyan colleagues, with the Libyan smuggling network. He told us, you know, if I bring you to one village in Egypt, I'd be an hero. They're

going to celebrate me.

If I took -- if it bring you to another village, they're going to kill me, me and you, because sometimes my client die, die in the sea. That's why,

he told us, I work on the reputation. I try to minimize the risk. But let me underline that they are criminals. They work behind the lines and the

target of European Union is just the boat drivers, is around the target.

The people beyond the lines who organize the trip, they are very clever and very organized business men.

Well, at the same time, when they spoke to journalists, they try to neutralize (ph) their sense of guilty because they are criminals and they

say, "I take care of my clients."

AMANPOUR: Right. You have called it, you know, you've called it the biggest illegal and presumably deadly travel agency in the world, this

criminal human trafficking. How does a trip work? You've said the boat drivers are just the face and just the drivers but the leaders are sitting behind the scenes and

directing all of this.

MUSUMECI: Exactly. I mean, the real target, if you want to fight this matter, is in Tripoli, they are in Khartoum, in Asmara, in Mogadishu, in

Islamabad. That's the main point. I don't understand why European Union and our prime minister, the Italian prime minister, is focusing on the boat

drivers, which is the last ring of the chain.

The big smuggler, the boss like with the one we met, is able to organize many, many actors, many, many factors. He need people who collaborate.

They're someone who can take the boats, someone has to provide food and water. Someone else is going to corrupt the police or asking help for the

militia.

So, many, many people, the main talent of these guys is to establish trust, confidence, make relation, make network. And the paradox is they have

exactly the -- all the abilities, European Union doesn't show now.

AMANPOUR: And Giampaolo, one of the ways they get their clients is through social media, isn't it?

MUSUMECI: Yes, it is. Well, we have a huge variety of searching clients, of marketing strategy. Recently in Turkey we got the caracole (ph). We

assisted a very huge user of social network in Facebook. But it depends on the country, depends on the smuggler. The smugglers we met, for example,

going back to that example of the Egyptian one, he had a huge network of agents, marketing agents, who collect the need and the will of the people,

the Egyptian wants to get Europe and then, you know, it's like a flyer of the talent agency. They get the client and that they send him to this guy,

who is going to organize the trip (INAUDIBLE) Spain, Italy and so on.

So the organization is very fluid, is very quick. They change very, very quickly all the strategies in order to get into Europe. I will say they

spend day and night, 24 hours, thinking how to get into Europe.

AMANPOUR: It is an incredible, incredible thing. Giampaolo Musumeci, thank you so much for joining us.

And of course you mentioned the prime minister, Renzi has called these human traffickers the 21st century version of the slave traders.

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AMANPOUR: And anyone sailing into the New York harbor will see the famous Statue of Liberty welcoming millions of European migrants over the century

with these powerful words in the Emma Lazarus poem at the statue's base:

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddles masses yearning to breathe free."

Important to remember, during this human tragedy in the seas and within sight of harbors in the old country.

And after a break, 100 years later, a different European horror still haunts the continent. I speak to Armenia's ambassador to London on the

power and the meaning of one word -- next.

AMANPOUR:

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

This week marks 100 years since more than a million Armenians were slaughtered under the Ottoman Empire. And for nearly that long, there's

been an argument over to what to call what happened.

So what does genocide mean?

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): (INAUDIBLE) what happened at the Nazi death camps, genocide. But back then the word did not exist. It was created by Raphael

Lemkin, a Polish Jew who had lost everything he had and everyone he loved.

In 1944, he wrote a book about the Nazis. In it, he combined the Greek word genos, for race, with the Latin word cide, for killing.

As a teenager, Lemkin learned through news accounts that the Turkish government was slaughtering its Christian Armenian citizens. The

government claimed it was putting down an Armenian revolt. And over eight years, it killed a million Armenian men, women and children in massacres

and forced marches.

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AMANPOUR: So to this day, the Turkish government denies that what happened there was a genocide.

Joining me now here in the studio is the Armenian ambassador to the U.K., Armen Sarkissian.

Welcome to the program.

ARMEN SARKISSIAN, ARMENIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.K.: Well, thank you very much indeed.

AMANPOUR: This is an ongoing struggle way after what actually happened on the ground.

Does it matter what it's called?

SARKISSIAN: Well, it does, Christiane, because in our life, words are not just words. In many cases, words have a very, very deep meaning like the

word "honor," "pain," "love," "humanity," "genocide."

In the case of our meanings, the word genocide means 100 years injustice, 100 years of pain, denial and just remembrance of all what wrong happened.

AMANPOUR: President and former Prime Minister Erdogan has done more than many Turkish prime ministers to move towards that pain and injustice that

the Armenians suffered, still not calling it a genocide but has done more to acknowledge what happened.

How do you react to that?

SARKISSIAN: Well, I would say that as a general move, I react positively. But I would consider personally not as an ambassador or a politician, as an

Armenian, as a fellow Armenian, something like this one step forward then two steps backwards.

So why? Because at the end of the day, saying the words but the truth, but not the whole truth, doesn't help.

AMANPOUR: And yet, Ambassador, it's not just the Turkish government historically; it's here in Britain. It's the United States. They also

don't use the word.

Let me just also show you -- we're going to talk about it in a second, but I want to show you what the Turkish foreign minister said to you, our Jake

Tapper, earlier this week.

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MEVLUT CAVUSOGLU, TURKISH FOREIGN MINISTER: We are not denying that so many people died but we cannot characterize what happened as genocide and

it is not up to the doors parliament and the politicians to decide whether it was a genocide or not.

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AMANPOUR: So arguing over a technicality, it seems.

SARKISSIAN: Well, it's not a technicality at the end of the day. Let me give you a couple of reasons what it's important.

AMANPOUR: I mean in terms of the word; obviously not in terms of --

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SARKISSIAN: -- in terms of the word.

First of all, that word exactly shows the truth and truth matters because it was organized by the Turkish government, extermination of Armenians in

the Eastern Anatolia and that the whole Turkish Ottoman Empire with a reason just to eliminate the whole nation.

So there is no other words. And it doesn't matter is it 1.5 million, a million or even 20,000 that we saw recently in Europe in the southeastern

or western Eastern Europe that 20,000 people killed for a specific reason of hate and belonging is clarified as a genocide.

And I would like to remind that, Christiane, that you said about Britain has not recognized yet but there are 30 countries, including big countries,

that have basically recognized this terrible act as a genocide, the European parliament, parliamentary assembly of the council of Europe today,

the Austrian government, and it's going to go more and more.

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AMANPOUR: What are your relations with Turkey when you meet with their officials, when you have meetings?

SARKISSIAN: Well, I am one of the rarer means that travels to Turkey. I know politicians. I have friends there. I have a lot of friends from

(INAUDIBLE).

Let me tell you why the word genocide is important, both for Armenians and Turks as well.

First of all, as I told with the truth and directing basically representing the truth, the second it's important for Armenians. It's important for

Armenians to remember who you are. It's inside not in your genes, but in your blood when you are born. I am --

AMANPOUR: Do you think the young generation feels that? It seems quite a lot of writings about how there's a need to move forward.

SARKISSIAN: No, there is a mood to be (INAUDIBLE). But the way forward goes through truth. If we deny, if we do not say the truth, if we do not

say the truth, are there small irregularities in the financial sector, we end up with a financial crisis. Ah, what we call is not so dangerous. We

end up with a huge crisis in environment, food and water.

We say, ah, Armenians just have did it happen, was it just or not? We end up a German leader telling his troops that who remembers Armenians today at

alleged though and do the same or the worse to the 6 million of Jews.

AMANPOUR: So let me ask you then, you say more and more countries are beginning to come on your side on this particular issue. The Turkish

government, the Turkish nation is commemorating Gallipoli, the battle of Gallipoli of the World War I, just this week. In fact on the anniversary.

And top leaders, including Prince Charles, Prince of Wales from here and others from around the world are going.

What is your reaction to that?

SARKISSIAN: Well, it's not my role to interpret what His Royal Highness is going there, first of all, he's the heir to the throne that he represents

also the commonwealth and that they lost.

The question is not that Gallipoli, why the commemoration of Gallipoli, this year was moved for the usual date to the 24th of April and that the --

I think the answer is very simple. I would call it a small politics, small in the sense that at the end of the day, there are several ways of leaving

people. You can play the politics. You can manipulate but you can also lead with truth.

And this is what exactly we all want. Both Armenians and the Turks. Let me just say a very important things, I think we, Armenians, I said, it's in

the blood of ours. We are sort of also not only victims but also a hostage of the genocide. And we remember that we will -- we have never to allow

this to happen. And that's why Armenians fought in nagordna kalapov (ph), not only because they were right but also because they didn't want to allow

another genocide to happen. But the other hostage are the Turks. They are hostage of denial.

AMANPOUR: Very, very difficult history. Ambassador Sarkissian, thank you very much indeed for being with us on this 100th anniversary this week of

that terrible situation.

After a break, imagine a world where nature offers a panacea to all this tragedy. Spring is in the air, much needed -- next.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where all the ugliness of daily live and global politics can, for a few welcome moments, be held at

bay by something as simply beautiful as cherry blossoms.

They've exploded into their soft beauty across the Northern Hemisphere as they always do this season. They're known as sakura in their native Japan.

And this year, record numbers of tourists and local residents are flocking to witness the pinkness and the white that spreads far into the island

nation's history and culture.

In Europe, a combination of recent warm days and cool nights has turned the view here in Britain and in Germany particularly pink this year, while

cherry blossoms are also brightening Washington, D.C., and its annual sightseeing pilgrimage close to the Jefferson Memorial, the monument to one

of democracy's fiercest founders.

And just before we go tonight, as the U.K. gears up for one of the closest elections (INAUDIBLE), two weeks from now, join me and Max Foster for an

hour-long special edition of the show on Friday as we host a panel of politicians and an interactive studio audience to debate the big issues.

That's 7:00 pm in London, 8:00 percent Central European Time.

And earlier in the day, I'll be answering your key questions about the key issues and players. Log on to facebook.com/cnni to join the conversation.

And that is it for tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thanks for

(INAUDIBLE).

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