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Baltimore Protests; ISIS Threat; Statue of Liberty Evacuated. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired April 24, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:01]

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: Did the United States underestimate the strength of ISIS?

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hmm.

ZAKARIA: Does the United States know what is going on in Syria? Did the United States realize that the Iraqi army was going to collapse? Why did we not know about -- did they have enough early warning about al Qaeda?

You know, those are the big intelligence failures that I worry about. This one, as I say, you can't do counterterrorism and expect that it's going to be 100 percent. This is the fog of war, the fog of counterintelligence.

BALDWIN: OK. You bring up ISIS. Let's talk about ISIS. I know you have this entire piece that's rolling out, I believe, Monday night.

And before I ask you about it, just for our viewers' sake, there was a poll that just came out today. And so people were asked, you know, what entity, be it North Korea, Iran, ISIS, et cetera, we will show -- we will throw this up on the screen -- ISIS turned out to be at the top of the list as Americans perceive as the greatest threat to national security; 87 percent of Americans say it's a serious threat.

You're doing an entire special on how ISIS really blindsided the world.

ZAKARIA: I think it is -- that poll is a fascinating one because it shows that ISIS has won in one of its most important realms, which is the publicity campaign, the P.R. front. They want you to think they are the scariest, baddest terrorist organization in the world.

BALDWIN: It's working, though, apparently, Fareed.

ZAKARIA: Well, they have killed a handful of Americans. Right? And yet, they have managed to scare the hell out of everyone. And that is partly -- you know, that's largely a product of a very sophisticated media operation, public relations operation, social media operation, and we get into that in the special.

But, look, the reality of ISIS and the ability of it to portray itself in this way are two slightly different things. BALDWIN: Let me move off ISIS just momentarily, because I think also

hearing the president bring up Iran, and Iran was the second most serious threat, according to Americans. And here you have as recent as this week the United States sitting around the table with Iranians in Vienna, discussing the whole nuclear situation. The deadline is end of June. Yet, you also have -- the world has been watching for a potential showdown in the waters just off of Yemen, given how they have been supporting the rebel group, the Houthis, there.

So, I'm wondering, from your perspective, do you think what's happening in Yemen, is that at all bleeding into or affecting the talks in Switzerland?

ZAKARIA: It doesn't seem to be, because what is happening in Yemen is, in a way, a sideshow. Yemen is collapsing as a state. Yemen has really been in civil war, honestly, since about 1962. They were once two countries. They fought each other then. Then they unified and now they have had several civil wars.

And what's happened is that Saudi Arabia and Iran are in a sense jostling for influence in Yemen. Yemen is really just a battlefield where the Iranians support one group, the Saudis support another. They switched. The Saudis used to support the dictator, Saleh. Now they are bombing him because he's supporting the Houthis. So it's very complicated regional dynamics.

The big picture is that the Iranians are trying to make a -- integrate back into the world, if they can do it on their terms. That deal, I think, is much more important to them than anything that's going on in Yemen. Again, for us, I think we're not going to get sidelined by what's going on in Yemen. The big deal is the nuclear deal by far.

BALDWIN: OK. Fareed, as always, you're back on Sundays, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" Sunday at 10:00 a.m. Eastern. But, as we were just talking about, this special, do not miss it Fareed's special. This is Monday night, 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, "Blindsided: How ISIS Shook the World."

Fareed Zakaria, thank you very much.

And now an update for you on this evacuation that's been happening today over the course of the last few hours there at the Statue of Liberty. You can see just the hordes of people trying to get out of there on these ferries. They were forced to leave after earlier this morning someone called in a bomb threat and a sniffer dog raised the alarm outside of a locker.

I have Deborah Feyerick. She's working this.

And, Deborah, what do you have?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there were a couple of scary moments for the people who were there visiting the Statue of Liberty this morning. About 11:30 in the morning, the National Park Police receive an alert that someone had called in saying there was a bomb, that they planned to blow up the Statue of Liberty.

Obviously the Park Police evacuated the island. Ferries simply stopped running for a couple of hours. It is now all clear. It was a hoax, obviously investigators trying to track back to see exactly where that phone call came from. But, again, NYPD, they came, they checked some of the lockers because one of the dogs, as you mentioned, did react at the base of the statue there.

Not only did they open one locker, but then they had to hope a lot of the lockers there because you can't take any of the bags up into the main part of the Statue of Liberty. All of that was done according to protocol. The FDNY sent EMS personnel there just in case, just protectively. But now we're learning it's all clear and we expect ferries to begin running within the hour -- Brooke.

[15:05:11]

BALDWIN: OK. All clear. We hear you. Deborah Feyerick, thank you so much for that update. I know a lot of people have been worried about what was going on.

Also, we are learning more about this major international anti- terrorism operation, police arresting 18 suspected Islamic extremists, these bomb-makers and possibly even several of Osama bin Laden's former bodyguards. What were they up to?

Well, these raids taking place across Italy, as it's been revealed that this terror cell had a list of targets, among them, the home of the pope and the heart of the Catholic Church. You see it here, the Vatican. This whole bust a result of years of wiretaps and other intelligence gathering on these men here, some of whom had already been involved in bombings overseas that killed hundreds of people.

John Allen is our CNN senior Vatican analyst.

And, John Allen, you have been covering the Vatican for a long time. I'm just wondering if you know of the fact that has the Vatican ever been a target quite like this before?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN SENIOR VATICAN ANALYST: Well, Brooke, sure, of course, we all remember that fateful day in 1981 when Mehmet Ali Agca took a shot at John Paul II, but almost killed him, ended up hospitalizing him in Rome's Gemelli Hospital for almost two months.

There have been plots against popes, both when they're on the road. There actually was an al Qaeda-affiliated group in the Philippines that apparently had a plot in place to try to strike at John Paul when he visited Manila in 1995. Vatican security services say that, over the years, they are aware of a handful -- by a handful, I mean, three, four, five -- serious terrorist threats to strike the Vatican that were aborted at one stage or another in the process.

So while this is rare, Brooke, it is by no means unprecedented. The Vatican, as you know, is one of the most evocative, symbolic spaces on the face of the planet. To many Islamic radicals and radicals of other stripes, it symbolizes sort of the headquarters of Western civilization and Christianity. So it is, unfortunately, it's sad to say, something of an inviting target.

BALDWIN: Which brings up my real next question, which is, what about security? Because, for example, when you think of the White House, right, it's supposed to be the most secure place in all the United States. But when you look at security incident after security incident after security incident, I'm just wondering how is security around the Vatican? What's the vetting like for papal security?

ALLEN: Well, I mean, listen, I have covered popes and prime ministers and presidents. And I will tell you that in general, the security membrane around a pope is much thinner and more permeable than for other world leaders. And that is in part by design. Popes generally and this pope in particular...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Wants to shake hands and say hello.

ALLEN: Yes. They don't want to be separated from ordinary people. It just kind of doesn't do for a pope, who is supposed to be a shepherd of souls, a pastor, to be surrounded by armored cars and guys toting AK-47s.

And so, in general, I think popes try to take reasonable security precautions, but it just isn't as thick. And I think the same thing extends to the Vatican. Listen, Brooke, compared to getting into the White House, getting into the Vatican is like going to the 7/Eleven for a quart of milk. It's a walk in the park.

BALDWIN: Right.

ALLEN: They did install -- post-9/11, they installed metal detectors. And so you do have to pass through a metal detector to get in to, say, Saint Peter's Basilica.

But the kind of scrutiny you're subjected to just isn't the same. I think, in some ways, having covered the Vatican for the better part of 20 years, my surprise is not that there are occasional threats against it. My surprise is that, to be honest with you, that it doesn't happen more often.

BALDWIN: Knocking on this desk that it won't at all. John Allen, thank you.

ALLEN: You're welcome.

BALDWIN: Just in, we have some breaking word that the Tulsa deputy who pulled a gun instead of a Taser did, indeed, get special treatment and his training violated rules.

Plus, more news just in from the mayor of Baltimore, as the tensions are growing over the police custody death of 25-year-old Freddie Gray. The mayor just revealed when that full report will be sent in to the state's attorney's office.

Also, just in a stunning interview, one of the oldest Holocaust survivors joins us today to talk about the trial under way in Auschwitz. It's a trial of a former Nazi guard, 93 years of age. Do not miss this.

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[15:13:59]

BALDWIN: In little less than an hour, we may be getting some new information as far as what happened to Freddie Gray. Baltimore police promised an update in a news conference that is happening about 45 minutes from now.

And this is all happening just after we heard from the mayor there, Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake. She spoke last hour on the 25-year- old man who died in police custody. His spinal cord, according to his family's attorney, had been severed.

Now, the mayor says the result of the police investigation will be turned over to the state's attorney's office one week from today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE (D), MAYOR OF BALTIMORE, MARYLAND: I still want to know why the policies and the procedures for transport were not followed. I still want to know why none of the officers called for immediate medical assistance, despite Mr. Gray's apparent pleas. The one thing we all know is that, because of this incident, a mother has to bury her child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: As we have seen in at least four other cases, video is playing a vital role in telling these stories. It doesn't show -- these particular videos there in Baltimore not showing exactly how or when Freddie Gray was critically injured, but it shows officers not reacting to his wails of pain.

[15:15:10]

BALDWIN: And while these videos have helped incite this movement against police brutality, calling for justice, my next guest fears the footage may actually be numbing society to the -- quote -- "spectacle of black death."

He's Jamil Smith. He's behind this piece, this "New Republic" piece on precisely that subject. He's a senior editor there. Also joining me from Baltimore Catherine Rentz. She is an investigative reporter for "The Baltimore Sun."

Welcome to both of you.

JAMIL SMITH, "NEW REPUBLIC": Thank you.

BALDWIN: Catherine, you're there, so let me just begin with you and to your piece you have written talking about video. You spoke with one of the young men in this community, in this neighborhood, who took one of those pieces of cell phone that's been everywhere. And he told you police are denying the fact that Gray was OK before they got to him.

Here's what I want to know. What did this witness tell you that wasn't in the videotape?

CATHERINE RENTZ, "THE BALTIMORE SUN": Well, he said he heard a Taser go off before he arrived.

And that is something that police have denied. They said that a police officer took a Taser out, but did not Tase Mr. Gray. So that's one inconsistency. The other thing is -- I don't think police have denied this, but he said that one officer had his knee jammed in Mr. Gray's neck, and another officer was bending his legs so that his heels were in the back of his were in the back of -- embedded in his back, and that's why he was screaming so hard.

Now, I have learned since then that this is a police tactic to immobilize the suspect. However, if done wrong, it can really cause some harm.

BALDWIN: Yes, I have talked to a lot of police officers who say it doesn't appear to be excessive, but I remember reading your piece, and that gentleman referred to it as looking like origami.

So, Jamil, let me just go to you, as we're talking about this video, and your article evidence of these incidents contributes to -- and I'm quoting you -- "the numbness of the spectacle of black death."

Let me just read part of your piece -- quote -- "Rather than being influenced by the shock of the video here, we collectively have sided with the cops' version of our story. Desensitization of police violence, at least among communities who aren't suffering from it, is required so that the consuming public may be better entertained by it."

But what about the flip side? Without the video, the police version is the only version. Without the video, communities are ignorant to the suffering. Where do you draw the line?

SMITH: Well, I don't draw the line necessarily in people stopping filming. I want people to film. I want people to have the courage to take their cell phone out and use the available technology to record these kinds of incidents.

What I'm trying to express in the column was that the -- I would say the effect of the shock of the videos is not resulting in the policy that we need to stop more of these incidents from happening. What we need is for politicians, for policy-makers to see these videos as a call to action. They need to see them as an increased urgency, I would say, for police and any kind of law enforcement to be put in check, I would say.

The fact is, is that you have a situation with Freddie Gray and in Tamir Rice's case and in any number of cases that have been filmed where America has been shocked and, you know, briefly horrified by these videos. But what we need to do is have some lasting change come from that. We don't need to just simply have the next video pop up on to the news or the Internet and have people say, well, this is horrible, I'm going to move on and have my dinner.

BALDWIN: Right. Your point is we can't move on. Right?

SMITH: Exactly.

BALDWIN: This needs to be addressed. There needs to be policy change.

And I was just talking to -- we really enjoyed talking to Charles Blow with "The New York Times." He's a columnist. I was quoting your piece to him. He was responding to the article. He said, you know, there could come to this point of diminishing returns, right, where people become callous to the idea of these deaths. But if these videos don't move the needle, then, and don't create, what would, was his question?

SMITH: I would also add that if they don't create change, you're not going to see people having the courage to film. You see -- you have cases of alleged retaliation against people who film these videos.

And someone is going to have seen something like this going on, they're going to think twice about pulling out their cell phone and recording it and sending it to the news or to a newspaper, because they're going to realize that, well, look, there's not really going to be much influence that's going to be brought on by this video. There's not going to be any, so why am I going to bother?

[15:20:13]

So I hope we never get to that point. I hope we get to the point where politicians understand the importance and the urgency of this. It seems like Mayor Rawlings-Blake seems to at least grasp that at least on a surface level. We need more politicians to go into the legislative branch and go and say, well, we need to make laws, need new policies so we can change not only how the police do their job, but also, you know, the overall culture, and so that these kinds of instances, we don't have to worry about whether or not these they are caught on film.

BALDWIN: Jamil Smith, thank you, sir. Catherine Rentz, keep asking those tough questions for "The Baltimore Sun." Thank you both very much.

Coming up next, here's another story. This is a man now paralyzed, he's suing police in Florida, after they shot him four times. He was on his bike, only had his cell phone. We have some of the video next. Also, CNN has obtained records about the Oklahoma reserve deputy charged with manslaughter after shooting a man when he grabbed his gun instead of his taser. Those records show the deputy was given special treatment. We have that news just in next.

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[15:25:40]

BALDWIN: Yet another officer-involved shooting of an unarmed African- American man is caught on video. It's an incident from a police dash cam that involved the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Department. It shows an unarmed suspect on a bike, man on a bike being chased by officers. You see him get off. And then you hear the deputy firing four shots at him. You hear that? So, then he goes to the ground. Now the man is paralyzed.

CNN's Alina Machado is in West Palm Beach with more on the video, the reaction to the video.

Alina, what are you hearing from authorities, first of all?

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, authorities here in Palm Beach County, specifically the sheriff's department, is not commenting on the dash cam video because, they say, there is a pending civil lawsuit.

But early on, when this incident first happened back in 2013, the sheriff himself came out and defended the actions of his deputy, of Deputy Adam Lin. Deputy Lin himself told investigators that essentially he feared for his life, that he thought that he had seen Dontrell Stephens in those moments before he fired those shots reaching for what he thought was a small gun and that everything happened very, very quickly.

You get a sense of just how quickly this situation escalated just from watching that video. It's just a matter of seconds from the time you see the squad car stop to the moment that you hear those gunshots. What you don't see in the video is that interaction between Stephens and Deputy Lin. What happened in those moments, we don't know.

But you can hear the gunshots and the aftermath. Now, the state attorney here in Palm Beach County did do a review of the shooting, and they decided that there wasn't enough evidence for any charges. They said that Deputy Lin's actions were justified, Brooke.

BALDWIN: So what's the status of this deputy?

MACHADO: So he was placed on administrative leave early on when this first happened. He was on leave for a few days and then he was reinstated. He's still on the job. He's still a deputy here at Palm Beach County.

BALDWIN: OK. Alina Machado, thank you.

Next to Oklahoma, new information coming in on that volunteer Oklahoma deputy who admits he accidentally killed a man when he confused his gun for his taser. Documents that CNN has just obtained show that Robert Bates did increased receive favored treatment at the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office.

Bates, you know the story, he's facing that second-degree murder charge, manslaughter -- let me correct myself -- in the death of the 44-year-old father Eric Harris, who allegedly took off away from police during an undercover operation back on April 2.

Nick Valencia has details on these.

And so what exactly do these documents say?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Brooke.

The documents are related to a 2009 internal affairs investigation, which essentially shows that Robert Bates was not shown favor during the selection process of becoming a reserve deputy, but he was shown preferential treatment, especially when it came to things like training.

Now, this report hinges on the so-called intimidating actions by some of the supervisors there in the Tulsa County sheriff's office. And a handful of employees were interviewed for this report. One employee said, Brooke, that she didn't feel intimidated until -- quote -- "Chief Albin instructed me to make a certificate for driver training for Reserve Deputy Bates. Fiddler," that employee, "stated that she did not believe that Bates completed the training."

Now, in another interview, a corporal says that he also felt pressured to complete Bates' training by a certain timetable, something that wasn't required of him and any of other officers that he was training. That corporal said at one point, a chief approached him with a memorandum that that corporal had allegedly written. He had not written that. But he said he felt forced to sign these memorandums -- quote -- "because he was afraid of trouble like a transfer if he did not."

This report goes on to conclude, Brooke, that Robert Bates, that man you were just looking at there, lacked some of the basic functions of training. It also calls into question some of his actions, including outfitting his personal vehicle with police lights and using that personal vehicle during traffic stops, something that, of course, is against department policy.

Now, we should note that we have reached out to the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office. They have not called us back yet -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Nick Valencia, wow, thank you.

Coming up: this 93-year-old Nazi guard on trial for being an accessory to the murder of more than 300,000 Jews during the Holocaust -- next, a powerful conversation with this man here who survived the Holocaust, what he thinks the outcome of this trial should be and his own personal experiences during that horrific time.

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