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Did Mayor's Comment Help Spark Violence?; Pastors Unite to Reclaim Streets. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired April 28, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

[09:32:55] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I am Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. I am live in Baltimore this morning.

It was a day that was supposed to honor the life of Freddie Gray. Instead, the streets of Baltimore, home to peaceful demonstrations just a week ago, erupted in violence. Gray's family expressing their anger and calling for an end to the unrest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD SHIPLEY, STEP-FATHER OF FREDDIE GRAY: We had a beautiful service. And to see it turned into all this violence and destruction, I am really appalled. Family, I love you. And we are supposed to be in this for justice, but is it just us?

GLORIA DARDEN, MOTHER OF FREDDIE GRAY: I want to get justice for my son, but don't it like this here. Don't tear up the whole city, man, just for him. That's wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: William "Billy" Murphy is an attorney that represents the Gray family.

Thank you for stopping by. I appreciate it.

We just had a couple disturbing updates from the mayor's office, 15 structure fires and a senior city burnt to the ground, and so many people were about to depend on, right, on senior housing. It was arson. The ATF has now been called in to investigate. As I tell you that, what goes through your mind?

WILLIAM "BILLY" MURPHY, ATTORNEY FOR FREDDIE GRAY FAMILY: It's senseless violence. But people are fed up. This is an eruption, as it were. It was not anything that was planned. This city has been dealing with police brutality for a long time, and to have a graphic example like Freddie Gray really hurts. That doesn't mean that the violence is justifiable. It's not. It's never. We have a system, and the problem is that the people who were involved in the violence don't believe that our system works for them. COSTELLO: You know, when violent protests broke out at Ferguson, a

lot of people said it was because the community wasn't represented in the city government there or in the police department. You can't really say that about the city of Baltimore. So what is the problem here?

[09:35:03] MURPHY: Well, we had many things that happened in the city that have aggravated an already bad police brutality situation. For example, during the administration of Martin O'Malley, there were 27,000 black people arrested every year, according to the grand jury report, that were never charged with a crime, and he had a street- sweeping operation in violation of the Constitution, and people did not appreciate that. You don't have to tell somebody it's wrong to arrest somebody for nothing. They already know that. So this was a real wound in the city.

And then we had Sheila Dixon, who improved things somewhat, because she was the first mayor who actually spoke out against the brutality incident and called it what it was. We had never had seen that before. Now how unresponsive is that? We have a system in place in Baltimore that doesn't work to compensate victims of police brutality. They will pay off little cases but when the serious injuries come along, they make you fight it tooth and nail all the way through the courts of appeal.

COSTELLO: I understand why young adults might understand that. But at the mall yesterday, it appeared there were protesters throwing stones at police that were 14 and 15 years old.

MURPHY: That shows you the level of alienation that exists, because their judgment was not only horrible -- and what do you expect from most 15-year-olders -- but when you don't hook them into the society in which we live and show them they have career options and they can make a good living and get a great education, what do you expect?

Again, that doesn't justify it, but it explains it. And I think it's much more important to ask why in these circumstances than to merely say what.

COSTELLO: One of the saddest things that is happening out of this, everybody is talking about the riots and nobody is talking about what happened to Freddie Gray.

MURPHY: Part of that sadness comes from you guys. Not you, in particular, necessarily. But the media jumped on the violence like raw meat.

COSTELLO: Well, it was terrible. There were like 15 structure fires, 144 vehicles set on fire. Do you want us to ignore it?

MURPHY: No, we don't want you to ignore it. But we also want you to be balanced in your coverage, and sometimes you're not. Because, look, you go to what is newsworthy, and that's what the problem sometimes.

COSTELLO: We have also covered many of the peaceful protests and we have been mindful to say that the majority of the protesters are peaceful people. In fact, some of the protesters put themselves in between police and the rioters to try and stop the violence. We are very much aware of that.

MURPHY: Your coverage is probably, overall, has been among the best for this incident, for these incidents and for this problem. We appreciate that. But when everybody races to the violence, it kind of over did it. I think we probably have seen the end of it. And I certainly hope so. I hope it's not wishful thinking on my part.

COSTELLO: I hope now because we continue to hear the rumors that there will be protests in the malls of the city. But who knows if they are true or not.

MURPHY: Let's take the rumor of the Crips and the Bloods. It freaked everybody out. Office buildings all over downtown closed at 3:00 to get away from what the police said were the imminence of the Crips and Bloods on Baltimore streets. It didn't happen. I understand we have to be warned about stuff, but you have to do that with great care unless you are part of the problem.

COSTELLO: But that came straight from the police department.

MURPHY: Yes, it did. And I'm not talking about your role in this. And when I say "you," I mean the media's role.

COSTELLO: I understand.

MURPHY: No, the media had to report that, but it turned out to be complete B.S.

COSTELLO: But where do we go from here? Where does Baltimore go from here?

MURPHY: Baltimore is a great city. We will get beyond this. You can trust me on that. All of us are working hard in a partnership that we're -- to make this city better. And usually, we are adversary about a lot of stuff. But not on this. I mean, we want the same outcome. We want to end police brutality, we want to deliver services to the inner city that enable people to become a part of the overarching way that our society works. And if we exclude these young kids by ignoring them or by inefficiently attending to their real needs -- because, look, it's not their fault that their parents are dysfunctional. It's not their fault that they are in a terrible education system. It's not their fault that we're cutting their recreation budget enormously. So when we get past the blame game about their parents and we focus on these kids -- I mean, they're just kids -- then we will make some real progress. But as long as we argue about whose fault it is, we are not going to go anywhere.

COSTELLO: Billy Murphy, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

MURPHY: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Sure.

I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:42:30] COSTELLO: Good morning. I am Carol Costello, live in Baltimore city.

And the question everybody is asking this morning here, were Baltimore police ready for all of what went down last night? The city's mayor is under scrutiny for the comments she made on Saturday, some suggesting she gave her mission for the violence by giving these people space to protest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE, MAYOR OF BALTIMORE: It's a very delicate balancing act, because while we try to make sure that they were protected from the cars and the other things that were going on, we also gave those who wished to destroy space to do that as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: As the city burned last night, Mayor Rawlings-Blake mayor defended her comments. Here is what she told CNN's Don Lemon.

All right, the mayor defended her comments to Don Lemon saying people construed her remarks. She just wanted to give the peaceful protesters space in which to protest. She was not giving permission for anybody to commit violence on police. But, of course, others differ.

I want to bring in a former Maryland State police officer, Neil Franklin. He spent 23 years with the Maryland police before being recruited to Baltimore to reorganize the city's training and education.

Welcome, sir.

NEIL FRANKLIN, FORMER MARYLAND STATE POLICE OFFICER: Thanks for having me.

COSTELLO: I'm glad you are here.

You heard what the Baltimore mayor said. Did she give permission for people to commit violence?

FRANKLIN: I don't think she did from the heart. I really don't. Only she can speak to whether or not she misspoke or not.

COSTELLO: She said she did, but it doesn't matter if she misspoke or not. It's how people heard her comments.

FRANKLIN: Let me say something here. I am -- and people know that I am one to criticize the mayor when it's due. I am one who will criticize the police department wrong doing when it's due. But I have watched the mayor try to work through this scenario, this -- what we are dealing with here, and I know where her heart is. Managing what needs to be managed is another story. She has never been through this before. She is learning.

COSTELLO: But we depend on our city leaders to handle it --

FRANKLIN: Yes, we do.

COSTELLO: -- whether they have been through it or not.

FRANKLIN: Absolutely. And today, as you can see WITH who is here to help us, other police departments from around the state, as far as Wicomico County, where I met with Sheriff Lewis. Didn't expect that. But we have the National Guard, we have other leaders who have backgrounds for dealing with this type of -- these circumstances that we have.

[09:45:05] COSTELLO: Well, a lot of people are wondering why the National Guard

wasn't called in earlier because, you know, Saturday there were -- there was violence in the city of Baltimore, too. Everyone says outside agitators, nothing to worry about, but that wasn't the case at all.

FRANKLIN: Right. And no mayor wants to have to call in the National Guard. It is truly a last resort. And that's where we are now. I was out there yesterday when it started at Mondawmin Mall and watching what was going on, watching the deployment of the officers as they were trying to, you know, deploy more officers on the scene there, but one thing that people don't understand about this city, geographically, it is not set up like Ferguson and so many other cities.

We have pockets of plight and poverty and unrest and anger all across the city, east side, west side, northwest, south, southwest, there is not one or two areas where the police can concentrate their efforts. They're literally running all over the city trying to --

COSTELLO: Well, I have to agree with you there because, you know, I lived in the city of Baltimore for seven years. I still have a house here. So I know how the city is set up, and unlike other city who have a really great neighborhood and right beside then you have a really bad neighborhood. You never quite know when you go in there, right?

FRANKLIN: Right.

COSTELLO: So -- and the other factor is Baltimore is, what, 650,000 people, Ferguson is a tiny little place.

FRANKLIN: So let me ask you a question.

COSTELLO: Yes.

FRANKLIN: OK. Throughout the past few decades in cities across this country, we've had unrest like this, can you give me one example where things went really fairly right -- I mean, where you can say --

COSTELLO: Well, I thought -- I thought -- FRANKLIN: Wow, they've really controlled that well?

COSTELLO: I thought the way they handled in North Charleston was a good example of how, if you say the right things, you can calm people down. In that city I thought that things went well. That's the only example -- recent example I can think of.

FRANKLIN: And North Charleston is nothing compared to Baltimore city.

COSTELLO: You're right. It's tiny.

FRANKLIN: And the decades those problems -- right, it's the size and the decades and the history of problems in the city, so the dynamics are different. We are talking about things that are fluid that change at the drop of a dime. Yes.

COSTELLO: Let's go back to Mondawmin Mall because you said you were there, right?

FRANKLIN: Right.

COSTELLO: So why didn't the police arrest some of these juveniles who were throwing things at them?

FRANKLIN: OK. So initially they had a couple hundred officers on the scene, and they thought that would be enough, OK? But when I watched the students, the police officers have to stay in a unit to be effective in doing what they're doing to move the crowd in a particular direction, to split the crowd and send them in different directions. They have to stay unified. The crowd can disperse. One group can become five just like that.

The police cannot. And they need the proper number of boots on the ground for arrest teams. They didn't have that right away. And as they brought additional police officers in to form those arrests teams, that's what they eventually did. And even then as they started moving the crowd south to North Avenue and west, some of the people circled back around to fill in where the police had been and started looting the mall.

You know, we can second guess, you know, the deployment, the strategies, the tactics all we want, but because it's so fluid, it's very unpredictable. Things are going to happen. You know.

(CROSSTALK)

FRANKLIN: Here's what's key. Here's what's key. Here's what's key. The intelligence that they had. I don't know what that is. Now if we come to find out that they had intelligence that would give them information saying, oh, my god, there is going to be 1,000 kids there, OK, now if you underestimated your deployment, a different story. But no one knows what that intelligence is.

And that's what you have to rely on because you can't just arbitrarily deploy people around the city. And then something happens somewhere else, and then people, well, why didn't you have folks there? (CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: No. And I can see what you mean.

FRANKLIN: OK. So if the intelligence is key --

COSTELLO: Because last night there were looters in Harbor East, Fells Point, in West Baltimore, or in East Baltimore.

FRANKLIN: Right. And I didn't hear anything about intelligence in those particular areas. That doesn't mean it was not available or they didn't have it, but I'm trying to stay in touch with folks to see what's going on but as I said before, Baltimore is very unique and you're going to have things popping up here and there. I think we have the --

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: And we always talk about when these terrible things happen, we're all going to learn these big lessons and it's never going to happen again. So what's the big takeaway from this?

FRANKLIN: The big takeaway on these systemic issues and problems that we have that cause these things. Not just in Baltimore but around the country. And it's about police reform, it's about overall criminal justice reform. It's about the systematic racism that people just don't want to talk about, but whether it's intentional or not, it does exist.

Folks, you've got to realize it. You're going to have to address it. You know, part of that system are our failed drug policies in this country and the disparity issues that come with that. Decades of that history. We have to dig down deep, and now is the time to do that but I'm so afraid that once things quiet down here, the conversation that is really needed and the work that is needed will not get done. They will be topical in nature and we'll never dig deep enough to root it out.

[09:50:14] COSTELLO: Thank you, sir, for being with me this morning. I appreciate it.

FRANKLIN: Thanks, Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Still to come in the NEWSROOM, riots weren't the only thing -- riots were not the only thing going on in Baltimore last night.

It's important to bring this up, too. Hundreds of pastors and locals were marching, pleading for peace. One of those pastors will join me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Brianna Keilar in Washington, D.C. We'll get right back to Carol Costello in Baltimore. But for now, in the middle of the chaos and the violence erupting there in Baltimore, hundreds of pastors and local residents united marching through the streets calling for peace.

Take a listen.

Let's go back now to Baltimore and Carol Costello.

Carol, you have the pastor who posted that video on Facebook.

COSTELLO: I do, Brianna. When you look at that picture, I mean, it almost put tears in my eyes because it was touching and I think it's very important that we bring our viewers that part of the story.

Pastor Antoine Burton joins me now.

Come on closer. Thank you so much for joining me this morning.

ANTOINE BURTON, PASTOR, CHANGING LIVES MINISTRIES: Thanks for having us.

COSTELLO: So tell me what you guys did last night.

BURTON: We had a clarion call, a call went out for clergy to come together. We met at Shiloh. It took a while for us to get there because everything happened so fast. But we had clergy all over the city, some were coming from the (INAUDIBLE) ground. And yesterday we have some coming from their churches, some coming from picking their kids up. So we received the call. We all tried to, you know, get to the church as quick as we could. It was a little difficult because of the traffic and the barricades that were up. But when we got there, we met. We prayed.

We prepared and we actually went out to the streets to just kind of bring some peace to our city. This is our town. And we wanted to walk through the community which were being looted and we want to -- let the people know we're here for you. We're here to support you. We love our city. We must stop this. And we must stop this now.

COSTELLO: So who started the song?

BURTON: Bishop -- actually it was Walter Thomas, from the Psalmist Baptist Church. He and another pastor on the front line started it. All of the clergy members from behind, and we picked it up and a lot of us can't sing. We can preach but we can't sing but, you know, it was all for the cause of trying to bring peace to the city.

[09:55:14] COSTELLO: You knew that there was -- there were riots going on in the city of Baltimore when you guys were singing and marching down the street. What if you had run into violence?

BURTON: Well, you know what, Carol, when we went out it was so amazing because the community actually embraced us. It was people that were crying on the corners. And actually the one thing that really touched me and pulled at my heart to see the gang members. They were part of this march. They got in. They joined us. Some of them cried. We prayed with them. They said to us we don't know why they're putting this out on us. We didn't, you know, put any notes or paperwork out there saying we

want to take out Baltimore city police but we wanted to help bring peace to our city. They were part of that march. And they did a phenomenal job in representing our city. We came together as one --

COSTELLO: These gang members did?

BURTON: The gang members. They were -- I mean --

COSTELLO: These people are going to hear you say that, and say come on.

BURTON: No. Listen, I salute the gang members because they came and they were part of the clergy. They marched with us, they prayed with us. They were part of the meeting that we had on last night to see what type of solutions we can find to help the healing process to begin in our city because Baltimore is our town. We love our city. And the young people that were part of what happened last night is part of a bigger problem. And unless we get to the root of it, we won't be able to fix the problem.

COSTELLO: What do you suppose will happen tonight?

BURTON: I think that the powers that be are awoke now, they are alarmed now. We have several meetings around the city. I know we have one. Reverend Jamal Brown who was doing a phenomenal job of spearheading, he's opening up his church doors, several church leaders in there. The congregation will be meeting at the Empowerment Temple tonight. We have other churches -- we canceled our bible study for tonight.

Several other pastors have canceled their bible study. We're going out to the streets and praying and talking with the young people. So, you know, we are prepared to really help the process of healing to begin.

COSTELLO: Thank you so much for joining me, Pastor. I appreciate it.

BURTON: Thanks for having us. Appreciate you.

COSTELLO: Members of the NAACP expected to talk in Baltimore at the top of the hour. Of course we'll bring that to you live when it happens.

The next hour of NEWSROOM after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

COSTELLO: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you for joining me.

[10:00:00] I'm live in Baltimore this morning. And after a very intense night things have calmed down this morning. We have CNN crews fanned out across the city and across this developing story.