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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Curfew Will Be Implemented on Baltimore Streets; Baltimore Mother Goes Viral; Protests in Baltimore Continue. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired April 29, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:11] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Erin, thanks very much. Good evening, everyone from Baltimore. We are on the air for two hours tonight because there is a lot going on here in the city.
We just heard from the Baltimore police commissioner Anthony Batts reporting that his officers made 18 arrests today, reminding people the curfew is still very much in effect, and that that curfew will be enforced at 10:00, saying he anticipates no major issues. Those were his words.
There are a lot of demonstrations on the streets. You're seeing one right there. A large crowd moving peacefully through the streets. I actually encountered that crowd in traffic just a short time ago, and I can tell you, they are actually directing traffic themselves. The protesters are out in front of that protest. I didn't actually see any police at the front of the protest. And they were actually stopping cars, directing traffic. It was a very orderly protest, thousands of people, multiracial, peaceful, marching through the streets, accompanied by major police and National Guard presence. A major protest, as well, in New York. This is what the crowds look like tonight in and around in union square, where police have been making a number of arrests.
In addition, we have just talked to a person with intimate knowledge of the arrest of Freddie Gray. We're going to have that interview a little bit later on. This is the first time we have heard the account from one of the police officers about what that police officer believes may have happened to Freddie Gray, or at least when whatever happened actually happened.
We're also going to talk tonight to the mom you see right there. To that mom, who dragged her son out of a protest in order to make sure that he did not throw rocks at police. We'll talk to her. And we'll talk to the son about that, as well.
But I want to check in with our Brian Todd right now who is standing by.
Brian, explain where you are, what you're seeing.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, we're at Penn station in downtown Baltimore. The starting point and the finishing point for a massive march through downtown Baltimore. Hundreds if not more than 1,000 people, many of them high school and college age students marched through the streets for the last couple hours. This was a larger and more dynamic and actually more organized protest than those we have seen in recent days.
It just ended here. And it went from kind of a demonstration of civil disobedience to a celebration of civil disobedience. We just had some music playing here, people milling around, it just kind of starting to break up now. And what the organizers told us was that they really wanted to take the message back to the Freddie Gray case. They really wanted to put the focus back on the Freddie Gray case here in Baltimore.
The street message they want, to stay on that particular case, and not on the violation that has occurred. Not on the arrests, on the car burnings and on the lootings that have occurred. They want to put it squarely back on the message, calling attention to the Freddie Gray case. And that's what they believe they have done tonight.
I just talked to one of the organizers of the march here. They said they are going to honor the curfew, and one of them actually just warned some of these people, you've got to get home, you've got to get into a safe place, because we don't want anything to happen to you, we don't want the police to converge on you, Anderson.
COOPER: Brian, I want to check in with you later on. I also want to check in now with Alexandra Field in New York city with a protest there.
Alexandra, where is the protest right now and what have you been seeing?
ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson where we are now is hemmed in right outside of union square. You can see where the NYPD has come through with mesh fences to keep the crowd off the street. Just a few minutes ago, we saw a number of people being arrested right in this intersection outside of union square park. It was a very swift response from the NYPD to a somewhat spontaneous decision from the protesters to march. They had gathered here for about an hour, Anderson, in a very peaceful demonstration, holding signs, chanting, speaking to one another. And then they decided to hit the streets.
They got a half block outside the park heading west on 17th street and that's when they were intercepted by officers who forced them back, telling them to get back on the sidewalk. Those who would not listen to police, those who would not clear out of the street and get on the sidewalk, we saw them put in hand ties and taken away.
This might be surprising to some people who have seen a number of protests in this city over the last couple months, most remarkably back over the winter months when we saw hundreds if not thousands of people taking to the streets to protest after the death of Eric Garner.
You may remember, we did see some arrests at that time. But we didn't see them instantly. It seems the tactic the NYPD was employing at that time was to allow people the space to get into the streets if they chose to, to express the passions they had decided to express at the time.
The tactics tonight, ANDERSON, different. And they came with warning. The NYPD knew about the protest that was going to be happening in Union Square. They got down here this afternoon, even before the demonstrators got here. They set up loud speakers, warning people that if they obstructed the sidewalks or if they walked in the streets, that they could be arrested for disorderly conduct. And as soon as this crowd of at least hundreds of people started to make their way across 17th street, the police responded immediately, Anderson, and that's when we saw them taking some people into arrest.
One person left here in an ambulance. No word on what kind of injuries there might be in that case. At this point, what we're seeing at this very moment, though, are NYPD officers standing shoulder to shoulder, out here, downtown Manhattan, the middle of 17th street, trying to keep this crowd out of the street.
The crowd is somewhat thinning. We heard some demonstrators say they'll march in other places, they'll head south from here. And it seems the police are actually moving at this point. We don't know what's prompted it. We can't see down there. But we do see that a large crowd of NYPD officers now making their way west of 17th street. A lot of people still out here, being held behind these mesh fences, waiting for what's next, Anderson.
[20:01:05] COOPER: And Alexandra, we're showing our viewers on the left-hand side of the screen your shot, your live shot. But also now on the right-hand side of your screen, a shot from earlier. And you really get a sense, Alexandra, of the large numbers of people who did turn out for that demonstration. Do you have -- I know you rarely do the police put out numbers. But is there any kind of authoritative number?
FIELD: There is not an authoritative number of how large this crowd was. And you're right, the NYPD rarely gives out crowd numbers. We know on social media more than 5,000 people RSVPed saying they were going to come to this. We were surprised to see that, you know, within a few minutes of the scheduled start time, which was 6:00, there were hundreds and hundreds of people will be able to go back later and take a look at the aerials. You can get a better assessment of just how many people are out here.
But, Anderson, I was in the middle of Union Square Park, and we were really shoulder to shoulder with people, a very thick crowd. They came out early. They wanted to be here. They said they were here to express solidarity with people in Baltimore. They said they were here to demand justice for Freddie Gray. We asked them explicitly, do you have plans to march across the city the way we saw them do so many times over the winter, and they said they had not organized any official march but they weren't going to try to hem people in or stop them from doing what felt right.
Here again, I don't know if you can hear in the background, Anderson, but again, you got the NYPD over these loud speakers telling people they need to stay on the sidewalks, they need to stay out of the streets, and warning them that arrests will continue to be made if people are obstructing the streets, according to the officers out here. We are still standing on this corner on 17th street, behind this mesh fence, which is being held up by NYPD officers.
We did see officers come in here, flooding in on 17th street when the crowds advanced forward. They were wearing helmets. We haven't seen them dressed in anything beyond helmets. No tactical gear out here, Anderson.
COOPER: Alexandra Field, I appreciate the reporting. We will continue to check in with you to see how those protests either dissipate or continue.
Again tonight, a lot to talk about. We're also getting word now of protests in Washington, D.C., we're just getting these pictures now. These are live pictures here in Washington, D.C. You see a crowd marching on the streets.
And to reiterate what Brian Todd said, what Brian Todd said earlier, I think a lot of the protests, when you talk to them today, a lot of them repeated they wanted to get the focus back on Freddie Gray and what happened to Freddie Gray. And what they want to see is justice for what happened to Freddie Gray.
Still, so many unanswered questions. There had been a big expectation among some people, and I talked to one of the pastors who was in schools today, trying to tamp down young people's expectations for what's going to happen on Friday. Because a lot of the young people he was talking to were saying to him they were thinking charges might be brought on Friday or at least some kind of resolution or answer would be given from authorities about what happened to Freddie Gray.
The message, the pastor was getting out, the message the Gray family attorney was trying to get out to a crowd here last night when we were on the air is that we're -- the public is not going to learn Friday, probably not going to learn anymore details about what happened to Freddie Gray, and to try to tamp down expectations. So there's not high expectations and a lot of disappointment.
I want to bring in our legal analyst, Sunny Hostin, who has worked here, friends with the Baltimore mayor, as we often point out. Also former NYPD detective, Harry Houck and retire general Russell Honoree who led the militant response, of course, after hurricane Katrina.
Sunny, what we are seeing so far, you know, I've seen a lot of more number -- bigger numbers of people on the streets today protesting. And I think seeing that tonight even larger numbers of people around here in this area.
And I wonder if that has to do with the fact that because now there is this sense, these are peaceful protests, people from different parts of Baltimore feel, you know what, it's OK to come down, it's OK to take part in these protests.
[20:10:03] SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think that is certainly part of it. I think another part of it is social media, quite frankly. I've been looking at social media. And the word is getting out. That -- I think people also want answers. I think people are focusing on Friday, and so I think that's also why we're seeing more of a ground swell in terms of protesters. So I think there is a real momentum moving towards Friday, because we know that that is the day when the investigators -- at least the police investigators, are going to hand this over to the prosecutors. I think we do, Anderson, need to manage expectations, not only for our viewers, but just for the public in general. Because I don't think that they're going to get the answers they're seeking by Friday.
COOPER: Right. Unless something leaks out. But again, there's not going to be charges brought as far as we know. There is nothing new indictments, anything like this. This is preliminary investigation by the Baltimore police department, handed over to the attorney.
HOSTIN: I think that's right. And I think now -- right then and there will be the prosecutor's game. It will be the prosecutor's decision, and prosecutors do, of course, get that information from the police department. But then they have to conduct their own evaluation, their own investigation. And my understanding is, they don't have the autopsy report. In a case like this, that is so vital, so necessary for any decision to be made.
COOPER: You know, Harry, it's really interesting, just to be talking with protesters today, and we saw this again yesterday. You and I talked about this on the broadcast last night. The extent to which these protesters are policing themselves. You know, I was with a group just a short time ago marching down a street. There were individuals ahead of them, stopping traffic, redirecting traffic. It wasn't police officers doing that. It was march organizers it was just people who had taken on that responsibility. And that's something I think we have really seen, and I think has made a big difference over the last 24, 36 hours.
HARRY HOUCK, FORMER NEW YORK POLICE DETECTIVE: Yes, without a doubt, Anderson. You know, I'm really happy to see that the community leaders are getting involved in this. And that the police officers don't have to take much action.
If we see this every day and if they keep remaining involved, we shouldn't have that much violence. Although we had a couple arrests last night after the curfew at 10:00, and we probably will also tonight after 10:00. But I think these people stay involved, alright? Stay on top of these people that are trying to stay at the 10:00. Probably will have a really good night.
And also the fact that -- I don't know what's going to happen Friday, because the word is out there that nothing is really going to come out on Friday. So I'm really interested to see what's going to happen around Friday 10:00 at night when the curfew goes into effect.
COOPER: General Honoree, it's interesting, again, just the make of protesters -- I just, I mean, I don't have conclusive evidence on this, but just from talking to people today, being out and seeing a lot of different protest groups, it seems like if people from a lot of different parts of the city, much more multiracial. And I'm wondering where you think that change has come from. Is it the stronger police presence, is it the sense that a corner has been turned, to use the phrase, that the governor used, and that the protests are peaceful and therefore people feel more emboldened to take part in them?
LT. GEN. RUSSELL HONOREE, (RET.) U.S. ARMY: Yes, I think the observation is spot-on, Anderson, that the events that occurred on Monday that were violent, they had bad optics for the nation, they had bad optics for the state and for the city, that people are trying to move on in the collective community in Baltimore, which takes great pride in its city. Now focusing on going from law and order to strive to move the politicians to talk more about justice.
And I think because of the police presence, people should have that confidence that the police will do a dual role. They'll control the protests, but they will also protect the people. And I think that's a confidence builder.
But Anderson, I think they're swinging behind the ball in that we need to get that mayor and the governor, as well as the federal government, to start developing the narrative to find the exit strategy to get people off the street and get them back to work. This has been going on almost a week now, and it's time now to try and lay out a strategy and bring those community leaders that did such a great job yesterday at keeping peace, and what is the path forward to go from law and order focus to justice focus to address the concerns of the people, Anderson.
COOPER: That's a good point, general. Thank you, Harry Houck and Sunny Hostin. We'll check in with all of you over the next two hours.
We want to take a quick break. When we come back, though, my conversation tonight. My conversation with Toya Graham, who became famous for this show of tough love when her son was about to throw a rock at police officers. She went up to him, she found him at the demonstration, and you see what she did right there. Tonight she speaks out and I speak to her son Michael as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:15:05] COOPER: When you saw your mom --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
COOPER: When you first made eye contact, what went through your mind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just like -- oh, man.
COOPER: Like, oh, man!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My mother. What is my mother doing down here? Why would she be down here?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, he quickly found out why she was down there. She was down there to get him out of trouble. We'll talk to both of them ahead. I want to show as we go to break, a live shot in Washington, D.C. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You should be as united as Democrats as you are the tea party!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:18:56] COOPER: You're looking a demonstration tonight in Washington, D.C. Another one took place in New York, still under way. And, of course, big demonstrations here throughout the day and this evening. We will continue to monitor them throughout this hour and the next hour, as well that we're live on the air from Baltimore. But now, you're probably familiar with video of a mom on Monday in the very worst of moments. She confronted her son and dragged him home from the violence.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)
COOPER: Those pictures are Today Graham and her son, Michael, quickly went viral. So the judgment about, who he is, who she is, the reality is far more complex and more interesting. I spoke with her and him, with Toya and with Michael. But first, my interview with Toya.
COOPER: When did you realize that what Michael was up to?
TOYA GRAHAM, MOTHER WHO GRABBED HIS SON FOR THROWING: Well, Michael had told me the night before this wasn't supposed to go on. And he frequents Mondawmin mall when he is coming from school.
COOPER: That's the mall.
[20:15:00] T. GRAHAM: That's the mall. So I expressed to him that night. And first thing that morning before he left, not to go to Mondawmin mall because of what he was saying it was going to go on.
COOPER: Did he tell you he was going to go?
T. GRAHAM: He said he wasn't. He said he wasn't going to go.
COOPER: And but did you kind of have a sense maybe he would?
T. GRAHAM: When we started getting a phone call they had actually closed the schools down early, and they had closed Mondawmin, I knew I had to get to Mondawmin.
COOPER: You decide just to go right over there?
T. GRAHAM: I just went right over there.
COOPER: So what happened when you got there?
T. GRAHAM: I had to find out if I could see my boy at that point. And I didn't see him. And then I started focusing on these bricks that were being thrown at the police officers, and I turned around, and he was coming across the street.
T. GRAHAM: Michael.
COOPER: But he wasn't -- he was wearing a mask.
T. GRAHAM: He was wearing a mask. He had the hood on. And he also had a brick in his hand.
COOPER: How did you know it was him?
T. GRAHAM: I -- I noticed the sweatpants that he had on, and then he gave me eye contact.
COOPER: You actually made eye contact.
T. GRAHAM: I made eye contact with him. And at that point, I told him to throw that brick down -- put the brick down. Put it down. And I just lost it at that point. I was so angry with him that he had made a decision to do some harm, to the police officers.
COOPER: It's not something you approve of, obviously.
T. GRAHAM: Not at all.
COOPER: So you saw Michael with the rock in his hand. And you say you just lost it.
T. GRAHAM: I did. And, you know, once he threw that rock down, I was like, you know, you wasn't brought up like this.
COOPER: Did you -- did you worry about embarrassing him?
T. GRAHAM: Not at all.
COOPER: Not at all.
T. GRAHAM: Not at all. He was actually embarrassing himself by wearing that mask and that hoodie and doing what he was doing. And at some point, I told him to take the mask off. Because why are you hiding behind a mask? If you want to be bold enough to do this, then show your face.
COOPER: If this is something you really believe in.
T. GRAHAM: Yes. Why hide your face?
COOPER: So did he go home then?
T. GRAHAM: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, he went home with me. COOPER: I had no doubt about that.
T. GRAHAM: Yes, yes. He went home with me and his sister.
COOPER: I would have gone home with you in a second.
T. GRAHAM: Yes.
COOPER: Did you realize somebody had recorded?
T. GRAHAM: I hadn't. I know at one point that I had turned around, and I saw one of the camera crews going down. At that point, I didn't think that nobody had reported me. I wasn't there to be recorded. I was there to get my child.
COOPER: That's the kind of mom you are.
T. GRAHAM: Yes. Yes. And he knows -- he knows what he did was wrong. Do I think he wouldn't be in another situation or is he the perfect child? No. He's not. But as long as I have breath in my body, I will always try to do right by Michael and show him that what's going on out in society doesn't have to be you.
COOPER: Ms. Graham has five daughters. Michael is her only son. Michael, the one you saw in the ski mask who now you're going to hear from him now for the very first time.
COOPER: Why did you go down there?
MICHAEL GRAHAM, GRABBED BY HIS MOTHER AT THE PROTEST: It was just like I felt as though my friends were down there. A couple of my friends had been beaten by the police, killed by the police. So I felt as though I needed to go down there, show my respect.
COOPER: So when you -- when you saw your mom --
M. GRAHAM: Right.
COOPER: When you first made eye contact, what went through your mind?
M. GRAHAM: I was just like -- oh, man. Like --
COOPER: You were like, oh, man!
M. GRAHAM: My mother. What is my mother doing down here? Why would she be down here?
COOPER: Did you know instantly she recognized you?
M. GRAHAM: When I saw her, I didn't, like, really see her. But when I heard, put that brick down! I was like, oh, that's my mother.
COOPER: So when you think when you heard that voice?
M. GRAHAM: I was like, oh, yes, I know that's my mother. I know it's my mother. Nobody else talks like that but my mother. So --
COOPER: And then what happened?
M. GRAHAM: It was just world war III from there.
COOPER: World war III?
M. GRAHAM: Yes. It was just like --
COOPER: What did you think? Were you embarrassed?
M. GRAHAM: Yes, I was embarrassed a little bit, until she just started talking to me when we got home. Just telling me she did it because she cared about me. And it wasn't to embarrass me, but because she cared.
COOPER: She was worried about you.
M. GRAHAM: Right. She didn't want me getting in trouble by the law. And she didn't want me to be another Freddie Gray or anybody else that got killed by the police.
COOPER: Do you regret wanting to throw rocks, or do you think -- can you explain it?
M. GRAHAM: At first I was just like -- I don't care. Like -- I don't care about the law. Like, police. But when my mother talked to me about it, she was just like, what did they do to you? Did they ever hurt you? I'm like no, they didn't hurt me, but some of my friends are not here because of what they did.
COOPER: Do you regret it?
[20:25:00] M. GRAHAM: A little bit.
COOPER: A little bit.
M. GRAHAM: Yes, a little bit, I regret it.
COOPER: What do you regret?
M. GRAHAM: I regret me that like for me going down there and getting into this situation when I was supposed to be home.
COOPER: Do you worry about Michael a lot?
T. GRAHAM: Yes.
COOPER: What do you worry about?
T. GRAHAM: I worry about him walking out my front door. I do. It's just the life that we live around here, you don't know if you walk out the door if you're going to walk back in the door or not. COOPER: Do you think if riots broke out again, do you think you would
go down there?
M. GRAHAM: No. I don't think I would go down there.
COOPER: Are you saying that just because she is standing here?
M. GRAHAM: No. I'm not saying that -- I just see my mother care about me. Why would I want to put myself back in a predicament. But if I ever do go back down there, I'm going to do it in a positive way.
COOPER: She cares a lot about you.
M. GRAHAM: Right.
COOPER: Well, thank you, Michael. Appreciate it. Wish you the best. Thank you.
T. GRAHAM: You're welcome. Thank you.
COOPER: Should point out a couple things. Ms. Graham, by the way, who has gotten a lot of attention obviously, in the last couple days, she is unemployed right now. She lost her job. She has been working as a health care attendant, home health care aide, a job she loves. Hopefully something good will come out of this. Hopefully maybe somebody will see this in the Baltimore area, be able to offer her a job, because she could really use one.
The other thing that I found interesting, one of her daughters is actually applying right now to be a Baltimore city police officer. And I talked to that daughter. She is very passionate about wanting to be a police officer in the city of Baltimore. And she is a fine young lady. And we wish her the best in getting that job.
Just ahead tonight, my interview with a person close to one of the police officers involved in the arrest of Freddie Gray. Someone who has heard the officer's side of the story of what happened during the arrest, and where Mr. Gray sustained his fatal injuries.
As we go to break, a look at New York, where people have been rallying all evening, and police have been making arrests.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)
[20:30:00] COOPER: Welcome back. We are live in Baltimore. Protests now going on in three major cities tonight. New York, Washington, D.C., also obviously here in Baltimore. We have seen quite a number of people arrested in New York. These have been peaceful in all three places, though, it's important to point that out. About 18 arrests throughout the day here in Baltimore. A small number, when you consider the huge numbers of people who have been out on the streets. Tonight we're hearing the account of one of the officers involved in the arrest of Freddie Gray. Now, we're not hearing the account directly from this officer. But rather from a person who has a close relationship with the officer. This person who asked us not to use their name or show their face came to us and wanted to share what the officer has told them about what happened. And this person says the officer did not request that they approach us, but they did so because this person believes it's the right thing to do. We do know the identity of this person who you're about to see, and we know their relationship to the officer. But we agreed not to disclose that. We talked a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: You were very close to one of the officers who was involved in the arrest of Freddie Gray. What has that officer told you about what that officer believes happened to Freddie Gray? Does that officer believe that Freddie Gray was injured inside the paddy wagon, or before?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He believes that Freddie Gray was injured outside the paddy wagon, before.
COOPER: While Freddie Gray was being arrested.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
COOPER: And did this officer see any indication that Freddie Gray had been injured?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. He did not.
COOPER: There are a lot of questions about what happened to Freddie Gray once he was in the paddy wagon. The attorney for the police, for a number of officers, has come forward and says he believes whatever occurred, occurred inside that paddy wagon. There's a lot of questions about whether there was a so-called rough ride. Does the officer that you are close to believe that there was any kind of a rough ride for Freddie Gray intentionally driving erratically to cause some injury?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. No, he doesn't. He believes that injuries were sustained outside the paddy wagon, that if they go back and they look at the GPS and everything that occurred as they were driving, they can see how fast the driver was going. They can see where the driver was and what route the driver took.
COOPER: It is known that the vehicle did pull over and that once it left the scene and Freddie Gray was later shackled. Do you know -- does this officer have any idea why that was done?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Freddie Gray was shackled because he was irate. He was irate, he was angry. He was moving around in the wagon. So they were asked -- the arresting officers were asked to leg shackle him. And that's when the wagon pulled over.
COOPER: Does this officer know why Freddie Gray was not seat belted into the paddy wagon?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. He was not seat belted because once they put the leg shackles on, because he was irate when they put the shackles on in the first place, they didn't want to reach over him. You are in a tight space in a paddy wagon. He's already irate. He still has his teeth and he still has his saliva. So in order to seatbelt somebody, you have to get in their personal space. They're not going to get in his personal space if he's already irate. Most people in the paddy wagon are seat belted. They are just now starting to seatbelt as a result of this case. And you -- everyone can go back to the other cases for paddy wagons and for people being seat belted in, and they can see that a lot of people aren't seat belted in the paddy wagon at all.
COOPER: Even if it's a rule, it's just not a rule that's necessarily followed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
COOPER: The officer who you are in contact with, you're saying he believes that whatever injuries were sustained by Mr. Gray were sustained during the course of the arrest, but he doesn't have any direct knowledge or does he have any direct knowledge of how those injuries were sustained?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. He just believes that, you know, several of the officers never touched him. You know. So the arresting officers are the ones that chased him. For that mile. And they're the ones that arrested him. The other officers didn't touch him.
COOPER: The officer you're in touch with, does he feel that the city -- that the mayor has responded appropriately?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. He feels that the city has let all the officers down. That they have left them out there to fry for this, and that the mayor and the commissioner -- not just the mayor, the commissioner, who is on top of them, should have stood by them. And they should have gotten due process by law. And that's not what happened here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I want to point out again, this is somebody who has a close relationship with one of the officers who was involved in the arrest. We actually have more of this interview, we're trying to get it together, because we have altered the voice. We obviously were going to bring that to you as soon as we are able to.
Joining us now, Sunny Hostin, who as we said is a former resident of Baltimore, also friends with Baltimore's mayor, also CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Jeffrey Toobin.
Sunny, one of the things that's so interesting about, what this officer is claiming in what - or at least what this friend of this officer is claiming the officer has said, is that the injuries occurred before the Freddie Gray was put in the paddy wagon.
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think that is very significant. Because we do have video, and we have all seen it now, of Freddie Gray screaming in what appeared to be agony as he was dragged sort of like a rag doll to the police van. Now, a lot of people are saying, well, he was standing on the police van, on top of the police van when he was entering, which means that he must have been OK, and ...
COOPER: Standing on a bumper.
HOSTIN: Standing on a bumper, so he must have been OK, because the injuries must have been then sustained inside. I didn't see that. I saw someone that may have been standing on one foot while assisted by other officers, still in agony, still in pain. So what we're hearing now from this person, in my mind, Anderson, really supports what my eyes saw all along, from that video that has gone viral, really.
COOPER: Jeff Toobin, what do you make of what you heard? Because again, this officer through this person - or this person saying this officer is claiming who -- the officers who put Mr. Gray into the vehicle did not seatbelt him in, because they didn't essentially want to get close enough to him, because he was in -- I don't know, what words they would use to categorize him. But they didn't want to get too close to him.
JEFF TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: You know, I think this just underlines the difficulty and the complexity of this investigation. Let's just assume, and I don't think it's a crazy assumption, that this officer and the other officers in the -- who were in the vehicle say, you know, look, he walked in -- I mean, he was in bad shape when he came in. The arresting officer said, look, he was standing up. He was basically OK when we put him in there. What do prosecutors do in a circumstance like that? I mean you're going to be in a situation here, it seems entirely possible, where you have conflicting accounts of what happened. And you're going to have medical evidence that may or may not point to one group of officers or the other. I mean, obviously, the medical examiner's report, which is not yet completed, is going to be extremely important. But medical examiner's reports don't say who did what. And so I just think, you know, we are in for a complex and lengthy investigation that may wind up being inconclusive.
COOPER: My understanding is that there's only one police officer who was in the paddy wagon, the driver of the paddy wagon. There is another prisoner or somebody else who was arrested for a time inside that paddy wagon, as well. My understanding is that person has given a statement to police. We don't know what's in that statement. But you would think that person would also have some indication of what sort of condition Freddie Gray was in.
HOSTIN: Not only that, whether or not that person felt that he was participating in a rough ride. And so I think that person's account is going to be ...
COOPER: Because Freddie Gray was injured in a rough ride while there was another prisoner in the vehicle, why isn't that prisoner injured ...
HOSTIN: Injured as well and reporting that sort of rough ride. But I've got to disagree with my friend Jeff Toobin on this. I mean I understand that we don't have the medical examiner's report yet. I actually don't understand why we don't have the medical examiner's report. Toxicology reports, yes, sometimes take a long time. But the fact that this happened almost three weeks ago and the suggestion somehow that -- and the body was released to the family. The suggestion somehow that the medical examiner's report is incomplete is very strange to me. And I don't think that it is a complex situation. Yes, you're going to have officers obviously giving, you know, different accounts.
HOSTIN: But the medical examiner's report should be the focus of this inquiry.
COOPER: Well, it's also interesting, and just very briefly, Jeff. I mean clearly, this person says that this officer, who was one of the six who took part in -- you know, one of the six, is clearly putting the focus on the arresting officers who had the interaction with Mr. Gray out on the street as opposed to anything that happened in the vehicle. Again, this officer does not specify seeing any injuries in Freddie Gray or any knowledge of what happened to him during that arrest. But that clearly seems to be where this officer is putting the focus.
TOOBIN: No question. And just about the medical examiner's report. Apparently, the custom in Maryland is 30 to 45 days for an autopsy report. That may be too slow. It sounds too slow to me. But that's how they do things there. I hope they accelerate it. But there are a lot of people whose testimony you're going to need to get. And if you want to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, if you have conflicting testimony, it's going to be very difficult.
COOPER: Yeah. Jeff Toobin, thank you. Sunny Hostin, as well. Just ahead, what happened to this man? Joseph Kent after his arrest on live television last night. It's a question that's spreading across social media. Details, ahead.
COOPER: Protests tonight here in Washington, D.C., in New York, as well. There have been a number of arrests tonight in New York. Just 18 today, all day today in Baltimore, which is amazing, considering there's huge numbers of people who have been peacefully demonstrating out on the street all day and this evening. You're looking at a demonstration there in Washington, D.C. Right now. Baltimore's police commissioner said that 101 people who were arrested Monday are now being released, but could still face charges at a later date. Baltimore police also said they made ten arrests last night, seven for alleged curfew violations. Joseph Kent, a local activist, was among those taken into custody last night. The arrest was broadcast on live television on CNN. He walked in front of the phalanx of police after the 10:00 p.m. curfew had started. Social media has been buzzing about, a lot of people asking where Mr. Kent is and what happened to him after his arrest because he simply seemed to kind of disappear, blocked by a vehicle he was then taken away.
Chris Cuomo is by the CBS, Chris, you were there last night. You were on the air when Mr. Kent was arrested last night. Can you just walk us through what happened?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, NEW DAY: Absolutely, Anderson. So this is basically catty corner to where we were last night. The police phalanx was right here. This was clogged with people who didn't want to go home, right? And a lot of media. And what happened was, down from this street, the young man that we're talking about came up with his hands up. The police believe that he was part, apparently, of a group that have been agitating and throwing things at them. So they actually fired pepper balls at him. He raised his hands, he retreated and then came back again with his hands up, and they allowed him to pass along here in front of their phalanx, over to where we were, the media, on that corner. There was only media there at this point. The young man walked back and forth in front of us, saying, can I have your attention, do you all hear me. Do you all hear me? And people were kind of paying attention, kind of not paying attention. Because there was a lot of other activity. And he then said, "You all need to leave. You all need to leave." And then he backed up and walked very close over toward the phalanx and started to move back across the street. A humvee was coming up the street at that time. As it passed him, did not hit him, as it passed him and stopped in front of the phalanx, the line opened, and an arrest squad came out, grabbed him, put him on the ground and then we watched him -- Jay, the photo journalist and I watched him be put in a holding van and that's where he stayed until they drove away.
COOPER: And do we know where he is now? What he may be held for? Has he been charged?
CUOMO: Reportedly, and according to those reports, information coming from an attorney that went to check on him, he's in central booking. I believe there has been no arraignment yet, there's been no appearance yet. But he is being held, and the allegation is that he's being held on violation of curfew, which by definition is what he was doing.
COOPER: All right. Chris, I appreciate the update. Great coverage from you last night. It was incredible to watch. We're going to continue to check in with you throughout the night.
Just ahead, the president said it, the mayor said it as well. But is it OK to call the rioters -- those people who cause violation thugs? I talked to Ms. Graham about it today. She said my child Michael is not a thug. We'll get into that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Among the many debates that have been sparked by the events here in Baltimore over the past few days, one is over the use of a word that's been used to describe some of those causing violence. Baltimore City Councilman Carl Stokes said on CNN, it's wrong to use the word thug to describe children who have been set aside and marginalized, but that's the word that some officials including the mayor of Baltimore and even the president of the United States have used.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: My understanding is, as you've got some of the same organizers now going back into these communities to try to clean up in the aftermath of a handful of protest - a handful of criminals and thugs who tore up the place.
MAYOR STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE, BALTIMORE: What we see tonight that is going on in our city is very disturbing. It is very clear, there is a difference between what we saw over the past week with the peaceful protests, those who wish to seek justice, those who wish to be heard and want answers. And the difference between those protests and the thugs who only want to incite violence and destroy our city.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake has since gone on Twitter to say that those causing violence were misguided young people who also need support and wrote that when you speak out of frustration, anger, one can say things in a way that you don't mean, essentially saying she regrets using the word. Again, CNN legal analyst, former federal prosecutor Sunny Hostin who, again, used to live in Baltimore and is friends with the mayor. Also Baltimore City councilman Brandon Scott and Pastor Jamal Bryant of the Empowerment Temple Church. Councilman, do you believe that's a word that should not be used?
BRANDON SCOTT, BALTIMORE CITY COUNCIL: Well, I think that we have to look at the situation, and we know that's a word that the president uses all the time. It's not a new thing for me. And I think that what we're doing is we over-sensationalizing something. What we really should be worried about all these young people and their well- being and what we're going to do to help them heal moving forward. Yes, they were committing acts that by a definition would make - by definition would make them thugs, but to me, what's more important that, we know they're hurting and they have been hurting. How we are going to help them repair their lives, and let's stop focusing on that. Let's focus on how we're going to move these young people forward.
COOPER: And to that point, you spent today a lot of today in schools, talking to young people. I'm curious to know what you heard from them and what your message to them was.
SCOTT: My message to them is the message, actually, when this incident started, I'm in schools as almost every day anyway. I wanted to talk specifically about this incident. My message is today was to just remember, these are your neighborhoods, this is your city, this is your town, these are your family and friends. You have to protect your own and also respect yourself and your neighborhood and your city around you. But the young people were saying they're mad, they're upset about what happened. Not just to Freddie Gray. Something that we -- has gone missed in all this, when folks are talking about riots. In the midst of that, we have had 12 people in Baltimore shot and murdered and they're upset about that, as well. They want people to be upset like I am every time someone in our city loses their life.
SCOTT: And they think that this is overshadowing Freddie Gray, this is overshadowing people that are dying every day, because people are calling them names. And they're saying, look, they don't like what's going on. They think it's stupid, they think that this is going to hurt them more than anyone else and they're right.
COOPER: And pastor, I know, one of the things you were trying to do in the schools today was kind of tamp down expectations for what may happen on Friday. Can you explain that?
REV. JAMAL BRYANT, PASTOR, EMPOWERMENT TEMPLE CHURCH: Friday somehow or another, there's been the misnomer that's gone around that a verdict is going to be rendered. And in anticipation of that, people are already pre-prepared to be upset. Not knowing that nothing is going to happen. So really, just trying to quell that raging emotion, and to give information to say this is not the process. I think one of the dangerous things that our police commissioner did was even in releasing a day. He should not have done it, because he gave a false expectation. And so here we are on the eve of Christmas Eve, almost on the brink of doom's day, not sure which one is going to come.
COOPER: And Sunny, it's important to point out, Friday, I mean it's a preliminary report by the police department going over to the attorney's office. But again, unless it leaks out, there is no charges being brought as far as we know. I mean it's early days here. This is a long process.
HOSTIN: That is true. It is a long process. And what generally happens, Anderson, is when you get, as a prosecutor, when you receive the package -- we usually call it a package. When you receive the package from the police department, you then have to make your own evaluation about the evidence. Oftentimes, prosecutors want to speak to additional people, oftentimes prosecutors want to speak to them again. Oftentimes prosecutors want experts to review the evidence. So, you know, to sort of claim that Friday is the day is definitely a mistake. I just also want to mention, and while I understand your point, councilman, about using the word "thug," I think that words have real meaning. And I think that words have real power. And thug, that term, has been used over and over again recently to describe African-American young men. And so I think that because it has been racialized, not -- it's not a racist term, but because it has been racialized, I think people in power leadership has to be very careful with the use of that term.
COOPER: Pastor, thank you very much. Councilman, I appreciate you being on. Sunny, as well. There is a lot happening in this hour. Also, we're on all through the next hour, as well. Our live coverage continues with Baltimore's citywide curfew now just about an hour away. Earlier the streets were filled with protestors. There was a huge turnout. Protesters turning out in cities -- in other cities tonight, as well. Live pictures there of Washington, D.C. We'll take a short break. We'll be right back.