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Nancy Grace
Mystery Stops of Gray`s Police Van. Aired 8-8:30p ET
Aired April 30, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:00] NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live. Baltimore explodes, Baltimore exploding after 10,000 cops and National Guard on the
ready to take to the streets after the unexplained and brutal death of a 25-year-old man, Freddie Gray, his spine severed in police custody.
Bombshell tonight. We now learn the transport van carrying Mr. Gray makes two mystery stops, strangely missing, left out of the police reports.
Reports another passenger reveals he hears Gray banging in the back of that wagon, claims now emerging Freddie Gray injures himself while in legirons,
that he severs his own spine?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This does not mean that the investigation is over.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New information suggests Freddie Gray may have intentionally tried to hurt himself while in police custody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if he was injured in the wagon, then why wasn`t the other gentleman injured, as well?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say that prisoner told investigators he could hear Gray, quote, "banging against the walls."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, big screen and TV superstar Sofia Vergara shoots to fame on the hit TV series "Modern Family," now starring in her latest
movie, "Hot Pursuit" with Reese Witherspoon. But tonight, Sofia Vergara locked in a bitter battle with former flame Nick Loeb (ph), who is suing
Vergara over frozen embryos he fertilizes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sofia, you`re right! You`re beautiful!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sofia Vergara, starring in one of America`s favorite sitcoms and a Hollywood sensation, may find herself in court very soon.
Former fiance Nick Loeb is reportedly suing the Colombian-born actress over two frozen embryos they created.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sofia (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sofia (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. We now learn the transport van carrying Freddie Gray makes two mystery stops, strangely missing, left out of police reports, as
reports another passenger in that transport van reveals he hears Gray banging in the back of the wagon. Claims tonight emerging Gray injures
himself? What, while he`s in legirons? Did he sever his own spine?
Straight out to the field, standing by, Joe Johns, CNN senior correspondent joining us from Baltimore. Joe, what can you tell us about these two
mystery stops that were -- only came to light because of somebody`s videocamera?
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. That did come to light from somebody`s videocamera. Now we have four total stops that this transport
van made before it ended up at the Baltimore western district station, where Freddie Gray was found to be pretty much not responsive, having a
difficult time breathing, not able to talk.
We don`t know what happened in that fourth stop that the authorities just disclosed today. We do know one of those stops, they put legirons on him.
One of those stops was to deal with him, whatever that means, not sure yet.
So there`s an air of mystery that surrounds all the stops that this van made. And the authorities are not telling us much because they have turned
over the results of their investigation to state`s attorney Marilyn Mosby. It`s in her hands, and she has to decide what the next step is, Nancy.
GRACE: OK, wa-wa-wa-wait! With me there on the scene is Joe Johns, CNN senior correspondent. Let me understand this. We`ve got two -- not one,
but two additional stops of that transport van, commonly known as a paddy wagon. You transport people you arrest to jail in it. If you can`t fit
them in the back of the cruiser, you put them in one of these vans.
Now we find out there`s two additional stops. One was to, quote, "deal with" Freddie Gray. Well, hello? He`s already been arrested. He`s in the
back of the van. What more do you need to do to deal with him?
JOHNS: Right. Well, it`s pretty clear he was thrashing around back there. It`s pretty clear he had asked for medical help of some sort more than
once, including asking for an inhaler. Apparently, he was asthmatic.
[20:05:02]There were also concerns about him thrashing around back there -- so the one question and probably the biggest question that has actually
been raised by the authorities is why he wasn`t seatbelted into the van.
If you talk to police officers, they say there`s a problem with transporting and seatbelting some unruly passengers because you have to
kind of get into their personal space, and then you open up the possibility that an officer can be bitten in the process, can be spit on in the
process. So there`s some concerns about that.
But the official policy in Baltimore is to seatbelt those prisoners when they`re being transported. That didn`t happen, and that apparently is part
of the reason he was thrashing around, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, one thing is this, Joe Johns. Number one, it`s just like when you seatbelt your child into a child seat, all right? You have to
lean over them. You`re right in their face. You`ve got to lean over and buckle them in. That`s what you`re talking about. It`s very simple. But
he`s not buckled in.
JOHNS: Right.
GRACE: Then how come the other passenger in that transport van -- how come they don`t have a severed spine?
JOHNS: Right. Well, now, this is another interesting story that came out today, apparently reported by "The Washington Post," a suggestion that
there`s a document, an application in support of a search warrant in this case, in which that other passenger in the van essentially said that he
thought Freddie Gray was thrashing around, trying to injure himself.
Now, that account, of course, has been disputed already...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!
JOHNS: ... by the lawyers for the family of Freddie Gray.
GRACE: Joe -- Joe, I wish you could see our monitor. Can you please put that picture back up that you were just showing the viewers? Because the
inside of these transport vans has a big -- there`s an even better picture, Justin, which -- yes, that`s a good one. Yes, there you go.
See, you put prisoners, arrestees, on either side. So that guy, that single guy, he couldn`t see what Freddie Gray was doing.
JOHNS: Right.
GRACE: All he could do was hear.
JOHNS: That`s absolutely right.
GRACE: Go ahead, Joe.
JOHNS: Absolutely. That`s correct. And while this adds to the doubt about what happened, it also sort of adds to the doubt of the account of
the prisoner who was in the van. He couldn`t see. All he could do is hear. So how could he know whatever motivation Freddie Gray might have had
for thrashing around back there?
GRACE: And another thing -- "thrashing around." You got to do a lot more than thrash around to sever your spinal cord, Joe.
Joe Johns, I`m not arguing with you, all right? I`m on your side. I`m just trying to find out the facts, like you are, but they don`t make sense
to me. What I`m hearing doesn`t make sense.
And I can tell you this. If this were my son or my brother or my father in the back of that transport van and somebody said, Oh, they`re trying --
they were trying to hurt themselves? BS, all right? That`s a technical legal term, Joe Johns, BS.
Now, another thing. What do we know about whether the injury happened during the arrest as opposed to in the transport van?
JOHNS: Well, again, the authorities have speculated that whatever happened to Freddie Gray happened inside the transport van.
There are accounts that dispute that. A woman who apparently is affiliated with one of the officers who was on the ground outside the van said it was
her belief that Freddie Gray`s injury more likely occurred outside the van.
Nonetheless, the mayor herself has gone on the record and said whatever happened to Freddie Gray happened in the van. And she certainly has access
to more information than we do at this stage...
GRACE: OK.
JOHNS: ... because the results of the police investigation, which has been turned over, are confidential.
GRACE: OK. Joe Johns, let me just point out the obvious. Bystanders said that when Gray was arrested, he was in the shape of a pretzel, all right?
They referred to him as looking like origami -- you know, when you fold up paper in unusual shapes.
So am I supposed to believe, by this mayor, that it`s more likely that he rammed his own head into the side of the transport van, versus being
injured when he looked like a pretzel?
And Joe Johns, another question. That application for a search warrant, which I`m going to bet you was granted -- there had to be a search warrant
-- - is it true that there`s application for search warrant for the arresting officer`s uniform, for his shirt, his pants and his boots, his
police boots, to see if Gray`s DNA, i.e. blood, is on there?
[20:10:04]JOHNS: Right. I can`t tell you because, honestly, I have not seen the application for a search warrant. This was all reported by "The
Washington Post." So that is still privileged information, and it hasn`t been made public. So your guess is as good as mine as to sort of the
veracity of those claims.
GRACE: Let me ask you this. What else did that prisoner say, the arrestee, that claims he heard Freddie Gray thrashing around and, quote,
"trying to hurt himself"? What is he, a mind reader? And another thing. I`d like to know what that arrestee is charged with. Is he facing hard
jail time? And did somebody offer him a deal in exchange for that statement?
JOHNS: It`s not clear. My understanding from the article, at least, is that this had to do with some type of a violation of a stay away order, or
something along those lines.
But to be perfectly clear with you, the name of the arrestee who has made these claims was kept private, apparently as a part of an agreement with
the newspaper in order to sort of publish the information. They said they would not release his name for his own personal safety or whatever.
GRACE: With me is CNN senior correspondent Joe Johns on the scene in Baltimore. Joe, does anybody have any idea why police who are usually very
meticulous in their police reports -- they are taught not to leave anything out that they observe because at trial, if there ever is a trial, it could
become critical, one little detail.
So why would they leave out two stops, two stops of that transport van?
JOHNS: It`s fascinating that this last stop would turn up and the authorities didn`t know about it, at least didn`t disclose it to the public
until now, because what happened in those stops is critical at least in the timeline for how this man ended up in the position he was in when they
finally got to the western district police station. So I would call that inexplicable and very mysterious at this stage, Nancy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:16:28]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police escort him into the back of a police van. The answer to what kills Gray lies in what happens next.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The second prisoner that was picked up said he heard Freddie thrashing about.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New reports suggesting Gray may have intentionally tried to hurt himself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was cursing, he was yelling and he was kicking. That`s what was heard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Gray was taken out of the van less than an hour after he got in, he couldn`t breathe or talk. He lapsed into a coma.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were two people in the back. If he was injured in the wagon, why wasn`t the other gentleman injured, as well?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, we learn about mystery stops, stops of that transport van commonly known as a paddy wagon with Mr. Gray inside.
Now, if you look at Gray, he seems to be stepping into the van. According to the other guy that had just been arrested, he was thrashing around. So
if he could thrash around, if he could step into that van, that would mean to me that at that time, he did not have a severed spine -- his spine 80
percent severed, ultimately ending in his death.
And with me, in addition to Joe Johns, CNN senior correspondent, Deborah Simmons from "The Washington Times" and two very close friends of Mr. Gray,
Quentin Reed (ph) and Angela Gardner.
Back to you, Joe Johns. Where are we getting the explanations? And what does the mayor have to say about this mystery stop?
JOHNS: You know, honestly, I don`t remember what the mayor may have said about the mystery stop. She`s raised a lot of questions, a lot of very
pointed questions about the lack of medical care, even though the man asked for it, why he wasn`t seatbelted, for example, into the van.
And she has, you know, pushed hard to get answers. The police department has responded. They put 30 officers on this. And as far as they`re
concerned, their preliminary review of this case, now turned over, was comprehensive, and so they`re finished with it even a day before they said
was their deadline. Their deadline was Friday...
GRACE: OK, hold on.
JOHNS: ... they finished and turned it over to the state`s attorney a day before.
GRACE: Joe, I wish you could see what I`m showing the viewers right now. Justin, rack it back. I want to address something we`re seeing. Look,
he`s standing right there, or it looks like he`s standing, and then he steps up on the back bumper and he`s standing there. He`s grimacing. Gray
is grimacing. It was a still shot, Justin. He was grimacing, but he was standing, it looks, like on the bumper.
Now, what that says to me, Joe Johns, is that -- right there -- that his spine was not severed. Joe, do not move.
With me is Dr. Michelle Dupre, Dr. Dupre joining us from Columbia. Dr. Dupre, if you`ve an 80 percent severed spine, can you stand up?
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Nancy, that seems like that would be pretty difficult. I tending to agree with you on that. He does
appear to be standing at this point.
GRACE: OK, so back to you, Joe Johns. Joe, what I`m trying to figure out is this. If he was still standing, if he had the capacity to stand when he
got into that transport van, what happened in those stops? I know on the police reports, one stop is to, quote, "deal with" Mr. Gray. What does
that mean? I mean, the man`s already arrested. What else are they going to do to him?
[20:20:10]JOHNS: That is something we`re told is under investigation, and we have not been given any clear guidance on what "dealing with" Mr. Gray
means, other than in the view of someone, he was thrashing about. He was being unruly. There were reports he was cursing, and they had to deal with
him. What that means is a matter of interpretation.
GRACE: Joe Johns, listen, I worked the streets...
JOHNS: And the only people who can interpret that are the ones who have the report.
GRACE: Joe! Joe! Joe Johns, I worked the streets for over 10 years with the police shoulder to shoulder. I heard every word in the book, all
right? So who cares if he was cursing? Why, Joe, did they have to get out and, quote, "deal with" Mr. Gray? What does that mean?
And also, why is there another stop of that transport van you`re looking at right there that they didn`t tell me about, that I had to find out about
because it`s videoed on somebody else`s security camera? Why was that not in the police report? That`s what I want to know, Joe.
JOHNS: Well, it sounds like they had to investigate it and find video, apparently, from somebody`s cell phone of that fourth stop. That`s what it
sounds like.
You know, they have cameras all over this city and the cameras picked up a couple of the stops, but not four. So this last one apparently was a
private citizen`s camera.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:32]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Many protesters refused to leave when the 10:00 PM curfew went into effect, causing a few minor clashes with police.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We promised that we would be off the streets at 10:00 o`clock, so please let`s go home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a big (INAUDIBLE) that we`ve got to deal with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, we learn about a so-called mystery stop the police transport van makes. Now, don`t get me wrong. All the looting, the
burning, the attacking police officers -- absolutely crimes, and those people need to go to jail. I disagree with the Baltimore mayor saying that
you should give people space to destroy. No! Those people need to go to jail, all right?
But what I`m talking about right now is what happened to Mr. Gray. That`s what I`m talking about.
Joining me right now, in addition to Deborah Simmons from "The Washington Times," is Angela Gardner, who was living with Mr. Gray, and Quentin Reed,
a dear friend of Mr. Gray`s.
First to you, Ms. Gardner. Thank you for being with us. The first thing I want to say is that I`m sorry that you are going through this kind of pain.
It`s bad enough when you lose someone that you love, but then to lose them in this manner, it`s even worse. It`s so much more for you to have to get
over and to process.
I`d like to ask you this, Ms. Gardner. Why would Freddie Gray have run from police?
ANGELA GARDNER, FRIEND OF FREDDIE GRAY (via telephone): In the neighborhood that we`re from, the police don`t mean us no -- you know, they
don`t mean us no peace. So like they said in the -- I guess in the paper, that the neighborhood we`re from, it`s a lot of violence and drugs in that
neighborhood.
So if the police is looking at you, they looking at you for something. They want to do something to you, so you want to run. You`re not just
going to sit there and let them do whatever they want to you. You want to run.
GRACE: Do you believe that he had a switchblade?
GARDNER: Can you say that again?
GRACE: Do you believe that Freddie Gray had a switchblade on him?
GARDNER: No.
GRACE: Why?
GARDNER: Because the (INAUDIBLE) a switchblade -- if people know what a switchblade actually is, he didn`t carry no switchblade.
GRACE: Let me ask you this, Ms. Gardner. Everyone...
GARDNER: He wasn`t a violent person. What would he need one for?
GRACE: I noticed in his history, he does not have any convictions that are violent crimes. He`s got some drug issues, but he does not have any
violent crimes.
Let me ask you this -- with me is Angela Gardner, who was living with Mr. Gray. What do you make of the arrestee also in that transport van that
said Freddie Gray was trying to hurt himself?
GARDNER: I feel like whatever he got locked up for, they giving him something. They got to tell him, Oh, we`re going to throw that away, in
order for him to say that because that don`t even make no sense. That don`t make no sense.
GRACE: Tell me about the night before Freddie Gray was arrested.
GARDNER: I can tell you about that morning. Friday morning, he left my house probably, like, 11:00 o`clock in the morning. (INAUDIBLE) came up to
the house and (INAUDIBLE) and he went outside. And I talked to Freddie -- I went outside and I seen him probably, like, 3:00 o`clock that afternoon.
He was outside after (INAUDIBLE)
And then probably amount (INAUDIBLE) about 9:00 o`clock, I`m asking him, like, you know, What you doing? You coming up here tonight? And he, like
-- he stay -- he`s outside, like he`s waiting for his ride. So I think it was about 1:00 o`clock. And he texted me, he like, You still waiting for a
ride? So I`m, like, you know, If I`m still up, you know, call me and see if I`m still up, you can come up here. But he never called me.
So when I go outside that Sunday morning, I didn`t get no text, no nothing. So I`m, like, I`m going to go outside later on and see where he at. When I
walk by, everybody tell me (INAUDIBLE) they call him Pepper. I`m, like, No, what happened? They, like, The police beat him up. He now in shock
trauma.
And the first thing I can think of is, like, What you mean they beat him up? Like, how -- I don`t understand. Like, they -- I`m telling you, these
police here, they don`t mean us no well (ph), no peace at all, at all.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
