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Marchers Gather for Rally in Baltimore; Six Baltimore Officers Charged, Released on Bond; WJLA: Head Injury On Gray Matches Bolt In Van; Freddie Gray's Death Ruled A Homicide; Restoring Police Relations With The Public. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired May 02, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:59:51] FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, for days, there have been many people marching throughout the city but peacefully. Yes, there have been some arrests, but mostly for violation of curfews. That in stark contrast to what you saw Monday, when there were fires and there was looting. Overnight -- something like 50 arrests.

(VIDEO CLIP OF RIOTS IN BALTIMORE)

WHITFIELD: This was the scene last night when many of those protesters converged right here in this plaza in front of city hall. There seem to have been a concerted effort that they wanted to defy the curfew last night. It was 10:08 roughly when these people who were gathered together peacefully were taken down by these police officers and cuffed. It didn't appear as though anyone resisted arrest. In all, 15 people were taken into custody.

And that came just hours after six police officers involved in Freddie Gray's arrest were arrested -- all of them surrendering voluntarily -- and they have been charged with his death. All six officers today are out on bond -- their whereabouts unknown.

Freddie Gray's family and city leaders are urging for calm during today's marches. Rallies are planned across the country today, in fact from Los Angeles, and to the East Coast, in support of what is taking place here in Baltimore. CNN's Rene Marsh is also here in Baltimore. And so Rene, it is unclear of course where many of the officers are. We do know that they did surrender without incident facing their charges. Many of them have posted bond that was anywhere between $200,000 and $300,000. What do we know now about their potential whereabouts or even their next moves?

RENE MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fred, so -- of course we're at the intersection where there is a police presence but nothing like what we saw in the past few days.

As far as the officers go, as you know, this is a make up of five men and one woman. We know that not only did they post bond, but the mayor called for their suspension. So the next court date is May 27th and that will be a preliminary hearing.

But just yesterday, we all heard the state attorney come out and say that the reason why she was filing charges, number one, Freddie Gray was illegally arrested. She also said that she believed that these officers, based on the evidence that she's seen, caused Freddie Gray's death by not seat belting him in the back of that police van. And also, for the fact that he asked for medical attention multiple times and they failed to provide him with that medical attention.

So after her -- her very swift and surprising announcement for many, she is facing some criticism. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARILYN MOSBY, BALTIMORE CITY STATE'S ATTORNEY: The findings of our comprehensive, thorough and independent investigation coupled with the medical examiner's determination, that Mr. Gray's death was a homicide, which we receive today has led us to believe that we have probable cause to file criminal charges.

MICHAEL DAVEY, ATTORNEY, FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: In my 20 years career as law enforcement officer, and 16 years as an attorney, I have never seen such a hurried rush to file criminal charges, which I believe are driven by forces which are separate and apart from the application of law and the facts of this case as we know them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARSH: All right. So you heard there the attorney for the police union saying this appeared to him to be a rush to judgment. But when you talk to people out here in the community, many of them saying they trust this state attorney, after all they did elect her. But there have been calls for her to recuse herself because as you know, her husband is a councilman in that very district where this incident happened.

She says she is not going anywhere. She plans to stay with this case -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: And so Rene, when you look behind you, it looks like there is a return to some normalcy in terms of Saturday business. Here it is a beautiful weekend day. The sun is out. It's expected that many people will be out. Turn-out would be high. That's the expectation for the demonstration. But what are you seeing in terms of people who are just trying to go about their business where you are?

MARSH: Yes, you know, this looks like a regular Saturday morning compared to yesterday. If you can see here, this is the check-cashing place that we saw the images of. They were looting. It's now kind of been turned into kind of a police headquarters for officers.

But the police presence is drastically drawn back from what I saw yesterday. Traffic is moving relatively well -- if you just kind of scan over, you can show them traffic. Remember yesterday, traffic was kind of backed up because you had all of these people in the middle of this intersection -- Pennsylvania and West North Avenue, just celebrating with their signs. And so it was kind of a bit of gridlock here.

[11:05:09] But you don't see any of that, it kind of looks like a normal Saturday morning.

We do know that we expect some activity here, in the way of some rallies that I know you'll talk about later. But things look good and in talking to people here, many of them say they're happy about the news. But on the other hand, they say they know this is not over. There still is a trial that has to take place.

WHITFIELD: All right. Rene Marsh, thank you so much. We'll check back with you.

So, much -- many of the demonstrators will be gathering roughly about three or four miles away. Not very far from where you saw Rene Marsh and they're going to be making their way across the city here before they end up here right outside of city hall.

Our Nick Valencia is also going to be out there. We'll check back with him momentarily.

And when you look behind me -- if we can get just a sense of what will happen likely when many of the demonstrators come here this is what they'll be met with. Yes, this is a beautiful day which means many people will be out on this lovely day. They'll also be met at the city hall though by a flank of police and National Guard. You're seeing some chairs that are set up there for a number of people who will be speaking and taking to a microphone later on when the demonstrators make their way here. Again it's about a three or four- mile trek.

And there will also be music. So if you're going to be with us throughout the day. You're going to hear the volume is going to change. You see one of the musicians actually setting up right here getting ready for that mixer board.

So yes as Rene said, it is celebratory in a way but at the same time while there's some relief there's also some reserve.

Let's talk more about the charges that these six officers have faced. With me now Joey Jackson; he is HLN's legal analyst and criminal defense attorney. Also with me here in Baltimore, criminal defense attorney Mark O'Mara, who represented George Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin case. He's joining us from Orlando in fact. And also here in Baltimore with me is Cheryl Dorsey. She's a retired Los Angeles police sergeant and a member of the National Coalition of Law Enforcement Officers for Justice. Good to see all of you.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Good to see you Fredricka.

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good to see you Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. So Joey, let me begin with you first, because I mentioned there is both relief as well as there is some reserve.

JACKSON: Right.

WHITFIELD: There are many people that we heard from the city who are excited about the idea that there have been charges brought. But there's reserve because anything can happen between now and potential trial.

JACKSON: Of course.

WHITFIELD: What do you see as the road ahead, as it pertains to these charges?

JACKSON: Sure, Fredricka. Just breaking it down, remember it's an indictment. What an indictment is, is an accusation. That says two things: one, there's probable cause to believe that a crime was committed; and B, that these officers committed it. Now, with it being an accusation, it's part of due process. What does due process mean? Notice and an opportunity to be heard and at some point, the officers will be heard through their defense counsel in terms of what their defenses are.

I think we're going to learn a lot as we move forward, Fredricka, about police regulations, about police rules and about issues we call negligence and recklessness -- I'm just breaking it down.

I think what they'll talk about is they'll talk about what generally you should do if you're an officer. If someone needs medical assistance, how you would tend to them. What duties you would have to provide for the appropriate care prisoners that you transport. I think that will be a pretty significant issue here because they're not talking about when you look and analyze the charges that there's real intent to kill him.

But if you look at the highest charge, the driver for example, there's a charge of second-degree murder. And many people Fredricka are questioning why that's the case. Well it's the case because the assertion is that he acted with such depravity of human life. Someone is screaming, I need medical assistance, I need help what does he do? The prosecutor will say that he picked up another prisoner as opposed to tending to him.

And so I think we'll learn about depravity. We'll learn about what we call criminal negligence which is carelessness, the failure to act when you have a duty to act and finally we'll hear about recklessness. And that's the conscious disregard of life when you know a life is at issue.

WHITFIELD: Ok. So Mark O'Mara, let me bring you to the equation here because we heard the prosecutor say the reason why she came out the way she did, and presented these charges, is for the sake of transparency. And at the same time she also said I hear you. I hear the voices of frustration. I hear people who want justice. Why do you see these as potential conflicts?

O'MARA: Well, Miss Mosby took a very aggressive and quick decision to make these charges. And she was in part responding to the enormous amount of pressure that was on her and on the system, with these officers and with the death in having to hold somebody responsible. So I know that she's going to get some criticism for having rushed to judgment -- people will say that; for having made a decision that was more attending to the social pressures than the true rule of law -- so that's on one side. That's what she's going to have to look at and defend. But she's the elected prosecutor who has made a quick decision after about ten days worth of review where she said she's taken the time that she feels necessary to deal with these charges.

[11:10:08] And these are the charges that she's come up with. Now why has she done it? The aggressiveness of her charges I think is to make sure she has an opportunity to clearly negotiate with at least a couple of them, the lower ones, particularly the two who were charged with misdemeanors.

She knows she's got to break any code of silence that exists between these six officers and the way to do that is to negotiate with at least a couple of them. She needs an insight as to what happened, how it happened and why it happened. And if she can turn one or two of those right now co-defendants to testify against the other more culpable ones --

WHITFIELD: Do you see that likely happening.

O'MARA: -- that's going to help.

Well, it's going to -- yes, I do. And here's why.

WHITFIELD: Do you think that's likely to happen?

O'MARA: Yes, I do and here's why, it almost has to. I think it's going to happen because one, that's the traditional prosecutorial role and it has to happen in a case were we don't have a videotape inside that van as to what happened. So she's going to want to have coming from the voice of one of those cops' mouths exactly how it happened, why it happened and why everybody didn't do what they're supposed to, do as police officers offering aid to Mr. Gray. So I see it happening.

WHITFIELD: Ok. So Cheryl you know, these officers surrendered, they've all posted bond. Talk to me about the complications that come with police officers booking their own? These officers had to face some of their colleagues when they were, when they were arrested or when they surrendered and when they were booked for charges. Give me an idea what that is like?

CHERYL DORSEY: Well, I'm sure it was very embarrassing for the police officers. Because normally they're on other side of the desk, right? I'm sure it was very hard for their peers. These are people that they work with. These are people that they lunch with. These are people that they may very well socialize with.

WHITFIELD: Do you believe this is enough to cause fissures or even divisions within the police department?

DORSEY: I would like to think that those that are there to do the right thing will want the right thing to have been done in their name. I think they will not appreciate those that tarnish that badge that they all wear. And so while it may hurt them to have to book a colleague, I don't think that it will outweigh the notion that they don't want their profession tarnished because of bad doing. WHITFIELD: And Joey, you know, we heard the prosecutor say she comes

from a long line of police officers -- five generations. Mother, father --

JACKSON: Mom, father, grandfather -- sure.

WHITFIELD: Right. And So she says, prosecutors have to work with police officers in order to prosecute crimes, fight crime. Does this create a new problem, particularly for Baltimore?

JACKSON: You know, it could Fredricka. I think the prosecutor was also pretty clear in saying look, you honor and you salute police and this is not an indictment on the entirety of the Baltimore Police Department. Or police throughout the country who do a fine job protecting, serving, keeping us safe with professionalism and respect for all.

WHITFIELD: Are you convinced of that because particularly with a string of alleged brutality. Now there is an association that's being made with each case. There is a connection. And there are people who have already expressed that these charges or what happened here, the investigation here is symbolic of a string of alleged brutality.

JACKSON: And that could be. And that's a great point -- Fredricka. And that could very well b but I think you look at the charges here the prosecutor was very specific as to what their office feels they can prove as to each and every officer. For example, the officers who are involved in the arresting of Freddie Gray, there's a false imprisonment charge, why? Because of a feeling by the prosecutor that there was not even probable cause to arrest or chase or anything else.

So her chart is a very specific. You know look, there's large dynamic, this is a broader question, we could talk about the use of force nationally. But I think what this prosecutor did is found, at least to this point that this is what we're pursuing. The officers certainly will have their day in court where they say no, this is why I'm not guilty.

WHITFIELD: And real quick, Mark O'Mara if I could also ask you, you know, as it pertains to these officers. It seems we're talking about the van driver who is facing the most serious charge. But if that medical examiner's report is challenged and if it is determined that perhaps the injury came before he got into the van, as opposed to the injury, the fatal injury happening in the van, what will that do to his potential case?

O'MARA: Well, specific to that question, certainly if the injury that led to his death occurred outside the van, then the driver can't be held liable for that death. I think we're going to find out that what the medical examiner's report is going to show is that the injury, the spinal injury happened because he was bouncing around the back of that van like a pinball. So I think that's probably what's going to happen.

We don't know very much about this case yet. I think it's very, very unique, however, that this prosecutor decided to charge six out of six. I don't know how it's not going to be looked at as an indictment of law enforcement when each and every one of the cops involved were charged with at least one crime. And I think that's something we're going to have to deal with more societally than just this case.

[11:15:02] And we have to realize that if every one of those officers are now facing criminal charges and it was or wasn't a conspiracy that we have a concern with the entire police department in Baltimore and probably throughout the country. Not to indict them but we're going to hold them to that, that standard. We're going to have to train them better. We're going to have to pay them better and we're going to have to have a more professional police department everywhere, if this is the standard we're going to hold them to.

WHITFIELD: All right.

JACKSON: Fredricka -- briefly.

WHITFIELD: Ok.

JACKSON: Look, innocent until proven guilty.

WHITFIELD: Yes.

JACKSON: But I think it's important to be very clear here that as to each charge, there were specific conduct alleged as to what they did or didn't do. So it was just not a brush of charges because you were there. There were specific allegations. Again they'll have a trial and assert that they didn't do it. I think that's why the indictment came down.

WHITFIELD: All right. We do indeed have time to talk about that further.

Thanks so much. We're going to be with you all at home four hours today here from Baltimore. Mark O'Mara, Joey Jackson, Cheryl Dorsey -- thanks so much. I'll see the two of you a bit later as well. All right -- appreciate it. We'll have much more from the NEWSROOM right here in Baltimore, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back to Baltimore. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. You're in the NEWSROOM.

And you're hearing a lot of music because the stage is being set literally for demonstrators that will make their way here to the front of city hall. Many people are gathering, about roughly three or four miles away from here. They'll walk on this sunny day through the streets of Baltimore before they converge here at this plaza in front of city hall. And right to my right over here, you've got music, you've got chairs set up and microphones all poised for the activity later on today.

[11:20:02] For now, let's talk about the "what's next" now that six Baltimore police officers have been charged in the death of Freddie Gray earlier in April. Here with me right now, Reverend Allan Gwynn with Leadenhall Baptist Church. He served 23 years on the Baltimore police force. You're in a very unique position because you have been among many who have tried to encourage people, yes, demonstrate, gather, but keep it peaceful at the same time you have your connection with the Baltimore police department.

Is there a conflict for you? Or do you feel like your message is resounding, is clear. And is being appreciated?

ALVIN GWYNN, LADENHALL BAPTIST CHURCH: Well I don't, it's not a conflict for me, it puts me in a very unique position, because I understand the cultures that exist in the Baltimore City Police Department. And being a native of Baltimore, I understand the communities that we are engaging in, in terms of doing our job. And so it puts me in a unique position to be able to speak with the community with an understanding of how things work operationally within the Baltimore city police department. It doesn't conflict the message at all.

W1; When you hear the mayor say she wants to see reform, in fact she invited the Justice Department to look at collaborative reform, your experience with the Baltimore police department, what would be your recommendations on reform to help address what many in the community, we have seen over the past two weeks or so of demonstrations express. There's a frustration about the mistrust of Baltimore police.

GWYNN: Well, there's a federal task force on 21st century policing. But I think something like that needs to be experienced on the local level. I would kind of recommend that they have something as a detailed commission on police, in which you bring in law enforcement officials, city government officials and community --

WHITFIELD: Why is that not happening? Community policing is something that seems ingrained particularly in large cities. It would seem that Baltimore, Maryland would be incorporating community policing. It hasn't?

GWYNN: Well there's been a lot of policy shift in with regard to how we police the city of Baltimore. And I think there's where some of the problem lies. I remember at one particular point in my career, it seems as though people were the reason for our work. And then there was a shift when people became the object of our work.

So when you have these shifts that kind of take place, we shift away from the soft engagement of community policing and engaging in the communities and we become very numbers-driven because we want to be able to quantify in some way the work that we're doing. And so because of that, a lot of the officers are caught in a very difficult conflict. In terms of how they police because their performance is directly related to having the arrest that they're making and the impact of those arrests.

WHITFIELD: What's your gut reaction to the charges of these police officers? GWYNN: Well, I believe that the state's attorney's office did their

job. I think they were presented with the information and the evidence in the case and she moved with deliberate speed in terms of presenting an indictment. But let's be clear, this is just the beginning of the process. It's going to be a long process, they'll have their day in court and the state will have an opportunity to present the full case.

WHITFIELD: You hear from a number of people throughout Baltimore who say they're relieved that there are charges. At the same time there's lot of reserve. Because just as you just underscored this is just a step in a process.

How concerned are you that these charges as serious as they are, involving six police officers only adds to a mistrust that people in the community would have of police?

GWYNN: Well I think the good thing in all of this is that state's attorney Marilyn Mosby is a new state's attorney in the city of Baltimore. A lot of what we're going to be looking for is to see how she's going to respond to this. Clearly if we had a history with regards to how she performs, we would be basing it on the history. Right now we're only basing it on the history of the past performance of other state's attorneys. She has the opportunity at this particular time to kind of move the confidence in the state's attorney's office in a positive direction. I think she's already done that.

WHITFIELD: She is new, she is young. And she made some very strong statements about these charges. And that she hears people when they say that they want justice for Freddie Gray. Do you see that of those critics who say there's a conflict of interest, that there's an argument there.

GWYNN: I don't particularly see a conflict of interest. The reality of it is that when you represent the people who elected you, and you have a responsibility to execute the duties of your office, you do that. And I believe that that's exactly what she did. She was presented the case.

I've taken cases to grand juries and gotten indictments with similar amounts of evidence. So I don't really see where there's a conflict in her statements and the actions that she performed. She did her job and she did it with great expediency.

WHITFIELD: All right. Reverend Alvin Gwynn. Thank you so much. We're going to see you again a little bit later.

GWYNN: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right. Appreciate it. We're going be right back. We'll talk more about the gathering of people roughly four miles from here, getting ready to walk through the streets of Baltimore on a beautiful sunny day, they will eventually make their way right here at city hall.

[11:25:05] We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. Today in Baltimore it's sunny and expectations are high that thousands of people will turn out to march through the streets of Baltimore and end up here outside city hall -- all demonstrating in solidarity for Freddie Gray who was killed while in police custody in April. We heard charges of six officers, all being held responsible for his death yesterday.

The hope is that the demonstrations will be peaceful. As they have been all week long. Except for that night on Monday. Everyone recalls the looting and the fires that erupted, but there has been a sense of calm during the demonstrations, ever since.

The majority of the arrests have been as a result of curfews that have been violated -- that 10:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m. curfew. So right outside of what is still that blackened, gutted-out CVS at North and Pennsylvania Avenue there are people who are gathering for a day of demonstrations and among them, our Nick Valencia. He is there. You'll be there with the many demonstrators who will be making their way throughout Baltimore.

What is happening today, what is usually a day Saturday, a families getting together, a beautiful day like this people getting out -- enjoying the city of Baltimore. But I'm hearing hammering behind you. It sounds like they're still picking up and cleaning up, five days after Monday.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Just a little while ago. Just a little while ago, Fred we saw exactly that. We saw a handful of people cleaning up still what remains, the pieces that remain here of this burned-out CVS. What was as you mentioned the flashpoint of the violence -- the flash point of the violence and the looting and looting here on North Avenue and Pennsylvania. It's a stark contrast to what we're seeing today.

Those images juxtaposed now with the very peaceful gatherings here, residents. Having conversations about healing and rebuilding Aaron Cooke 22 years old, a young man in Baltimore, you're one of those that's come out here to talk about your city, why?

AARON COOK, BALTIMORE RESIDENT: It's my city, it's my city. It's our city. It's the people. We live here. People put hard work and money here. They work lard to build this, putting in taxes for this, the people that do work, if you got a job, if you got an income coming in.

VALENCIA: When you look at this, you know, you've been standing here, staring at this boarded-up CVS, the only pharmacy I'm told in this neighborhood. What goes through your mind when you look at this?

COOK: It's sad that it had to come with this for real. It's sad it had to come to this. To get justice, that's not right.

VALENCIA: What is justice to you, I mean, what do you measure that by? COOK: It was right. We got all of this evidence, you're seeing it. There's nothing else to prove. If you see this on camera, you witnessed it. You know what happened.

VALENCIA: What's next for your city? You've been here all your life. You're very frustrated obviously looking at this. What the community did to a business here. You don't like it. You don't approve it? What's next for your city?

COOK: I mean, hopefully we get answers, that's what we want. We get results from this. Start treating us like we matter. Like we decide, we all decide, you, me, him. We all bleed, we all work.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much, Aaron, for your words and you know, obviously, very emotional residents here. They don't like what happened to their city. They don't like that it came to this point.

But today the demonstrations will continue. People will start at the Gilmore homes, three blocks down here where Freddie Gray was arrested and march towards city hall, Fredricka, at about 12:00 p.m., we expect a rally to start with the Black National Lawyers Association.

Rallies planned all across the United States from Lexington, Kentucky, Baton Rouge, Los Angeles and Atlanta. We're expecting another day of demonstrations, by and large, police I've spoken to here say they expect it to be peaceful.

I'm told by crews, who have been here, the first day we've not seen police on this corner in riot gear -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Nick, indeed protests will be taking place across the country as we saw that map there at the same time of the demonstrations today. It's expected that many people will be coming from out of town.

Yesterday, I was at the press conference involving the Gray family representation and Richard Shipley, who is the stepfather said if you come to Baltimore, you must come with peace. He said Freddie wouldn't want this.

He wouldn't want more jobs lost. We're going to bring you more from the press conference later on. Also next, we'll take you inside a police transport van just like the one where the state attorney says Freddie Gray, that his neck was broken. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:36:49]

WHITFIELD: Hello, everyone. I'm Fredricka Witfield, in the CNN NEWSROOM. Welcome back to Baltimore where we are live.

You are hearing a lot of music in the background because some people here in the city are distinguishing this day as a celebratory one after six Baltimore police officers have been charged with the death of 25-year-old Freddie Gray. I want to give you an idea of what demonstrators will see when they come to city hall today because the expectation is the numbers will be in the thousands. When they get here, they're still going to see a flank of police officers and National Guard right outside city hall here.

They're also going to see this stage set. We're hearing the music, you have mixing board here. You see chairs, because people will be filling those chairs and there will be speakers who will take to the podium.

They're all digesting the information of the six charges, the charges that were imposed on the police officers, the Baltimore state's attorney, Marilyn Mosby says the injury that led to Freddie Gray's death happened inside the police transport van. Gray was not seat belted in that van.

CNN's Gary Tuchman shows us what it's like inside a police transport van and what possibly could have happened during Gray's ride.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: If you are handcuffed, if your legs are shackled, you're not seat-belted, you're very vulnerable. This is a police van, Dekalb County, Georgia police van. The lieutenant is with us. We are going to open it up.

The normal protocol when you put someone in this van, you handcuff them, right, behind their back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, they do.

TUCHMAN: We go out and play the prisoner. You go in, silt here, and you put on the belt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, that is true.

TUCHMAN: I have the cuffs, you put on the belt. That's the protocol. You always put on the seat belt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Always.

TUCHMAN: Always put on the seat belt. This case we know the seat belt wasn't put on. What we know from the state's attorney's statement is after the first stop they brought Gray outside the police van again.

They handcuffed him, and they re-handcuffed him for some reason apparently behind his back. Not in front, behind his back. They shackled his legs and then threw him on his stomach, face-first inside this van.

If you're face-first like this, lying on your stomach with your hands behind your back and your legs shackled, there's no way for you to get up. Lieutenant, is there any way to get up if you're like this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's incredibly hard.

TUCHMAN: OK, have you ever seen anyone do that before?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's almost impossible.

TUCHMAN: It's almost impossible. So if there's a rough ride in this van. This is theoretically what could have happened, he could be trying to get up, and if it's bouncing up and down, your head hits the metal. Up and down, your head hits the metal.

That doesn't hurt. I'm just trying to give you an indication of how hard he could have it. We've heard a lot about a bolt. He had a bolt injury enter his head.

There is a bolt right down here. So if he's lying down here, that's where the bolt is. Regarding the communication, you heard the prisoner on the other side, to separate the genders and put dangerous criminals on one side, non-dangerous criminals on the other side.

If he was yelling and screaming, someone should have heard him. Even if you're shackled, you can do that, you can yell, go inside here for a second, Lieutenant, can you hear me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I can.

TUCHMAN: Even if the engine is running, you'll be able to hear me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

TUCHMAN: What if you're up front?

[11:40:08] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can still hear you talk.

TUCHMAN: Are you always listening for people back here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we are.

TUCHMAN: All right, so we don't know exactly what happened. But we know that the state's attorney said he was lying on his stomach. It's very narrow here. There would have been no way for him to get up. If it was a rough ride, he could have been bouncing back and forth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right, so that's the assessment all based on the medical examiner's report. You heard the prosecutor, the state's attorney who said that the injury, the fatal injury of Freddie Gray was sustained inside that van.

We're going to talk to a medical examiner right after the break to find out if she agrees with that assessment right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:45:18] WHITFIELD: Welcome back. We're live in Baltimore. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Baltimore's medical examiner has ruled Freddie Gray's death a homicide by the hands allegedly of six police officers faced with charges yesterday.

The prosecutor concluding that Freddie Gray's death occurred in the transport vehicle as he was unbelted. Dr. Judy Melinek is with us from San Francisco. She is a board-certified forensic pathologist and author of the book "Working Stiff."

So Dr. Melinek, do you agree with the assessment that his injuries, the fatal injuries of a snapped or broken spinal cord would have taken place inside the transport vehicle?

DR. JUDY MELINEK, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I think it's premature to come to that conclusion because the medical examiner's report was released to the attorneys general, but it hasn't been made public yet.

What we do know about the injuries, from what the family was told in the hospital, was that he had fractured cervical vertebrae, broken bones, as well as damage to his larynx, the voice box.

And as you can see, I have a skull here, the vertebrae are most susceptible. They are thinnest actually in the back not in the front. In the front, they are very solid.

And the voice box is in the front. So you can have a fracture that occurs, for example, during the takedown before he gets into the van. But it won't necessarily have sliced the cord. It would just still be an alignment.

But the nerves that run in the middle are still in place. Then the rough ride in the van without being restrained could have exacerbated it and then cut through the cord so all of the injury may not have occurred just in the van.

It could have also occurred during the takedown or when he was lifted and brought into the van. One thing you have to keep in mind is that in the video, it looks like he's not really using his legs going into the van and it's not clear if that's the beginning of paralysis or if he's just not cooperating with being placed in the van.

WHITFIELD: And we're showing that video because in that video you also see in addition to the observation you just made about the legs, you see that his head seems like it is turned to the side.

Would that also be indicative of the kind of injuries you just explained, that possibly an injury could have taken place here at the voice box and in the back of the neck prior to getting into the van and then that injury being exacerbated?

MELINEK: That's the thing that is important is that the autopsy report only shows you the end point and it can't distinguish between injuries that occur close in proximity to each other.

There could have been injury that caused damage during the takedown. But that wasn't immediately threatening and then that injury was exacerbated by further events that happened in the van subsequently.

So you can't just say, everything occurred in the van just because he stopped breathing in the van. You have to look at the whole process.

WHITFIELD: So then, Doctor, quickly under 30 seconds, is it possible at this juncture, to ever determine a timeline of that kind of injury, if indeed an injury were to take place in the -- on the takedown. How could that timeline be narrowed?

MELINEK: That timeline can be narrowed based on the investigative aspect. So for example, what did witnesses see during the takedown? Did an officer have a knee for instance on his neck?

Did he fall a certain way, and how did he fall when he got down to the ground. How was he lifted? Was he moving his legs at all during the process or was there evidence that he was somewhat injured or paralyzed?

His yelling during the video indicates that there's possibly some pain involved. So that can also help elucidate what exactly happened. But we're not going to figure this out until we have the whole investigation, not just the autopsy.

WHITFIELD: OK, so who would make that determination? Would it be an issue of the medical examiner modifying that report based on that kind of information if the same kind of discoveries were made or would that mean another, another party that would have to be involved to come do that conclusion?

MELINEK: Well, the medical examiner's report wasn't made public, what we heard was third-hand from the state's attorney how they interpreted the findings. And ultimately a report just documents the findings.

It's up to a forensic expert to interpret that in a court setting, based on the hypotheticals that they're given. So the medical examiners, when they testify, are given the witness statements.

And then they say, it's consistent with or not consistent with the physical findings, we don't have that information yet. That has not been released.

[11:50:02] WHITFIELD: All right, Dr. Judy Melinek, thanks so much. We'll talk again. When we do, I would love for you to further examine the videotape of Freddie Gray. And we'll be right back.

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[11:53:56]

WHITFIELD: All right, welcome back to Baltimore. So what now for the Baltimore Police Department? How does the department restore faith with the public after the arrest of six of its own in the death of 25- year-old Freddie Gray?

Cheryl Dorsey is a retired LAPD police sergeant member and National Coalition of Law Enforcement Officers for Justice, and in Atlanta, Cedric Alexander is the president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives and a public safety director in DeKalb County, Georgia. Thanks to both of you.

All right, Cheryl to you first, if I may, is there a mixed message here between police when you have Commissioner Batts, who said more than a week ago that things were done incorrectly and he cited specifically that Freddie Gray should have been buckled and administered medical care.

But then you hear the Fraternal Order of Police and other Baltimore police representatives who say, this is unjust, it was a rush to judgment. So, does this bring about real consternation or perhaps more problems within the police department? Does it create new fractures?

CHERYL DORSEY, RETIRED LAPD POLICE SERGEANT: Well, you have to understand that each has a role to play, right, and so the Fraternal Order's attorney, his job is to protect officers by any means necessary.

[11:55:12] So that's his story and he's sticking to it.

WHITFIELD: Is the commissioner would be in that position too?

DORSEY: Well, listen, the commissioner wants to tell the truth and he understands that things that we saw were pretty egregious and on this one, he's going to wash his hand of the officers and be honest about what we know was inappropriate behavior.

You don't get to say I don't want to reach over somebody and seat belt them in, but later you will reach down and put shackles on their feet. You don't get to transport someone in the back of a van, who is seemingly relatively healthy and moments later find out now they're not breathing.

You don't get to forget to put down all of the stops that you made because understand, those officers know exactly how many stops that they made and but for this video now showing that additional stop that wasn't reported, they've got some explaining to do.

So Chief Batts has to be honest and forth right about his role in this. I applaud him for that. I'm hopeful that, going forward, we will continue to have that kind of transparency and openness.

WHITFIELD: Cedric, do you see that potentially this causes more divisions or is it -- is it possible that Baltimore police would become more unified as a result?

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR, DEKALB COUNTY, GEORGIA: Well, I think at the end of the day, once it runs its process, that department is going to be a much better department going over. They have a great commissioner there with Commissioner Batts.

And it's without question, we've seen this, there are parts of the communities that feel very much disenfranchised and I'm certain that that police department will move past this. They are going to do things they need to do to build trust and legitimacy within the community and it's going to --

WHITFIELD: How do you do that?

ALEXANDER: The way you do it --

WHITFIELD: It's not as simple as that.

ALEXANDER: It's not as simple as that at all. The way you do it, quite frankly, Fredricka, is this, we got to get out into those communities, particularly communities where we have young people, particularly those communities where people feel disenfranchised. We have to merge those relationships.

We have to insert ourselves in there. Not just as police officers but as guardians of that community, of that community. Once we do that, we're going to begin gradually, over time, and not overnight thing but overtime, you begin to see relationship change. But that is basic fundamentally what has to happen first.

WHITFIELD: All right. We'll have to leave it right there. Cedric Alexander, Cheryl Dorsey, thanks so much to both of you. All right, we're going to have much more straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

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