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Fifteen People Arrested Overnight in Baltimore; Protests Planned Across the Country Today; Man Who Videotaped Gray's Arrest Talks to CNN; Who is State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby?; Six Baltimore Officers Charged, Released On Bond. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired May 02, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Hello again, everyone. Thanks for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield, live in Baltimore. It's very noisy because this will be the scene of a massive rally later this afternoon.

We are right now two hours away from that rally here in Baltimore. A crowd is gathering just a few miles from here. I'm at the steps of city hall.

It is supposed to be a youth rally, a peaceful youth rally in support of 25-year-old Freddie Gray, the man who died in police custody in April.

There is a feeling of jubilation in the crowd among many, and then reserve, unclear about what may transpire now that six Baltimore police officers have been charged with death of Freddie Gray.

It has been a week of protests, of demonstrations, mostly peaceful. There have been some arrests, but mostly because of the curfew from 10:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m. curfews that have been broken.

A stark contrast to what the nation witnessed here in Baltimore Monday evening. On Monday evening there were fires, there was looting, and indeed, there were a number of arrests.

But the video that you just saw were the arrests from last night again, these arrests were mostly people who were defying the curfew. It was 10:08 when those police officers in their riot gear moved in here at this park outside city hall and made the arrests using though plastic cuffs, 15 people in all, as we understand, were arrested.

Those demonstrators said they were here in solidarity for Freddie Gray. Six Baltimore police officers have been charged in his death. All officers today are out on bond posting bond between $200,000 and $300,000, their whereabouts today, unknown.

Freddie Gray's family and city leaders are indeed urging for calm for today's marches. In fact, the stepfather of Freddie Gray said yesterday, if you come to Baltimore, come with peace. Freddie Gray wouldn't want people to lose their jobs and that family doesn't want to see any unrest here. Rallies, indeed, are planned all across the country, as far west as Los Angeles. You see on the map, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, Richmond, Virginia, Boston, and even Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, all in support of Baltimore and Freddie Gray.

CNN's Rene Marsh is at North Avenue in Pennsylvania, that's where marchers are gathering today, and that's where we've seen the bulk of demonstrations throughout the week.

So Rene, I understand you actually just spoke with the man who shot that video, everyone now has witnessed Freddie Gray's takedown, his arrest, because of this cell phone video. What was that conversation like? What did he reveal?

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION AND GOVERNMENT REGULATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fred, his name's Kevin Moore, and you may or may not know his name, but you certainly know that video that we've come so -- come to know so well.

This is the first time that he's done a television interview since state attorney announced charges will be filed against those six officers. Here's what he had to say just moments ago about the moment that he heard that charges will be filed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARSH: So how did you feel knowing, right after, that you played a hand in this when the state prosecutor made that announcement? Just knowing that connection that you had a hand in this, what was your thought about what you did?

KEVIN MOORE, VIDEOTAPED FREDDIE GRAY'S ARREST: I cried. My natural instinct was to cry. I couldn't believe. It was -- it was surreal.

MARSH: Why did you cry?

MOORE: Because -- it's a shame, right, it took so many people to come together and unify because my friend Freddie died.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARSH: Well, you know, being here on the street, in this intersection, I witnessed so many people coming up to this man and saying, thank you, because so many people believed that, had it not been for that video, this movement surrounding Freddie Gray just wouldn't have been as big and as national as it has become -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: Now, what is his life been like since that video was made public?

MARSH: Well, you know, he's a part of this group called cop watch where their goal is to go around and videotape situations in which they feel the police perhaps may be using force that is not adequate or not necessary for that particular situation.

So they're continuing to do that, but he told me, he was locked up yesterday. He was arrested yesterday.

[12:05:08] We don't know at this point because we just spoke to him what the reason from the police standpoint is for that rest, but he told me that he wasn't charged with anything.

Of course, we haven't been down to the booking center to find out if any charges were filed. But again, he said he was simply out here, he's protesting and then the next thing he knew he was under arrest.

So he feels that perhaps because of his work he may at some point become a target, but he says that that is not going stop his cause. He's going to continue to walk the streets of Baltimore.

And if he witnesses a situation that he feels police officers are not acting appropriately, he is walking around with a video camera, he has it all the time. He says in his words, it's always locked and loaded and he's ready to capture any other events like this -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Rene Marsh, thank you so much again. You're at a location where many will be gathering before they walk through the streets of Baltimore and make their way here to the steps of city hall.

So, Kevin Moore, certainly brought the world's attention by way of his videotape there of Freddie Gray. But what happened along the way? There were lots of gaps in this investigation until we heard from state's attorney, who then filled in some of the blanks. Here now is CNN's Miguel Marquez.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is where it all started, say prosecutors, on Sunday, April 12th, Freddie Gray walked out of this shop with a cup of coffee and looked police officers directly in the eye.

Gray ran, the store is just down there he went to these narrow alleyways here, zigzagging, trying to get away from police. That's where the original arrest was made and then police moved him to this location right here, putting him in a painful leg lace hole.

The police reported that he had a switch blade on him. In reality, it was something more like this, a knife perfectly legal here. The state's attorney saying, there is no reason for the arrest.

MARILYN MOSBY, BALTIMORE STATE ATTORNEY: Lieutenant Rice, Officer Miller, and Officer Nero illegally arrested Mr. Gray.

MARQUEZ: It was here, the state's attorney, says Gray said he was having trouble breathing and asked for an inhaler. His request, denied, he was placed in the transport van and not buckled in.

This is Baker Street, the first place the transport vehicle carrying Mr. Gray stopped. In the little video we have, we can see him, hanging half in, half out of the van. This is where the state's attorney says that he was shackled by the legs, his arms behind his back and placed in the van head-first on his stomach. She says it was that treatment that led to his death.

MOSBY: Following transport from Baker Street, Mr. Gray suffered a severe and critical neck injury.

MARQUEZ: This was the second stop for Mr. Gray, captured on the surveillance cameras of that store there. Despite it being a condition check, the driver of the truck checked him out, did nothing for him, and drove on for a third time without buckling him in.

This is the third stop for Mr. Gray in the transport vehicle, two times says the state's attorney he asked for medical assistance here. Two times he was denied. The only thing, she says, officers did for him at that location was picking him off the floor, put him on the seat, and still not buckled in.

The fourth stop for Mr. Gray, the exact same corner where all of this started. The state's attorney saying that the only female officer, Alicia White, checked on him, speaking to the back of his head, he was unresponsive.

And for a fifth time, they failed to buckle him in. This was the final stop for Mr. Gray, the Western District Police Station, now under heavy guard.

Despite the fact it's only a few blocks where he was arrested, it took nearly an hour to get him here. Once here, they first turn their attention to the other prisoner in the transport vehicle, then Mr. Gray. By then, he had stopped breathing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Extraordinary detail now. Perhaps many people wondering, so for weeks now, the gaps, what happened in between those stops? Some of what we know now, based on the state's attorney general who provided that information.

So I'm joined now by Joey Jackson. He's HLN's legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, and Cheryl Dorsey, formerly of the Los Angeles Police Department as a sergeant. Thanks to both of you joining me.

I know it's very noisy here. This is going to be a place of many demonstrators so hopefully we can get through the music right now. People can still hear us.

So that time line certainly filled in a lot of blanks. What transpired likely before or even after the videotape that the world saw about how he was detained.

When you saw the sequence of events, Cheryl, to you first, when it really does highlight how some potential suspects are arrested and how they are transported, what strikes you about that time line? CHERYL DORSEY, RETIRED LAPD POLICE SERGEANT: Listen, this is what I understood all along is that what happened to Freddie Gray was about punishment, right? I understand that those officers probably have a history with him because he lives in that area and they work in that area.

WHITFIELD: You have a word for that. I know you've used before --

DORSEY: Contemptive cop. Absolutely --

WHITFIELD: What does that mean exactly?

DORSEY: What that means is that if you don't do what I tell you to do as a police officer, there's a price to pay. If you run, if you don't come here, if you don't comply if you don't stop resisting, there's a price to pay, and we've seen what that price is, it's death, right, in the case of Eric Garner, Tameer Rice, Ezel Ford in Los Angeles.

And so now we have Freddie Gray, who makes eye contact and runs. Listen, suspect's running is inherent to police work. We understand if a suspect runs, it's my duty as an officer to get some exercise. You don't get to kill him.

And so what went on in that van is absolutely what I suspected, it was punishment. They made those stops because, I believe, someone got in the back of that van.

And I believe they dealt with him as they said in their report, and then when they realized that they had really hurt him, now they're trying to figure out how do we explain this.

WHITFIELD: So early on, Joey, before we heard from the state's attorney yesterday, the prosecutor, there was an understanding that at certain high crime areas the police are allowed to pursue a suspect.

And that invitation apparently was used in this case, because the suspect or this person was running, because he was running, they had licensed to pursue him.

But when we heard from the prosecutor yesterday, it seems as though that permission was denied. She says there was no probable cause and there was no reason and he had not been unlawful, the knife that he had was within regulation.

So, does this mean that that, I guess, federal allowance is not used in a city like Baltimore?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Let's break it down. When the federal government speaks, Fredricka, and the Supreme Court in particular speak, they speak for the country.

The Supreme Court has said to be fair, if you're in a high crime area, Supreme Court case, it's not indicative of criminality, but it could be suggestive of it, so says the Supreme Court.

So that gives, and let's talk about two things that gives reasonable suspicion in order to approach and potentially frisk somebody it done give probable cause for arrest. That could escalate later depending upon the encounter.

There are various encounters when you engage with someone in terms of escalating, you know, the type of force that you could use or the type of attention. That's going to be very important. Defense attorneys will argue that, they made eye contact, he engaged in nervous movements, he ran.

And the prosecution will say so what? That's not indicative of any criminality. That's not suggestive of a crime. Let's not do anything wrong. The defense attorneys, Fredricka, will point to the Supreme Court case and they'll say, there's a case that says we can chase them. We can detain them. We can search them.

But very briefly, in terms of the time line and the gaps, what the prosecutors are going to use that for is to show they checked on him, they had knowledge that he was in distress.

And they willfully failed to provide aid, and that goes to the issue of criminality. So that's how prosecutors are going to use that to buttress their case against the officers.

WHITFIELD: OK, all right, thanks so much, Joey Jackson, Cheryl Dorsey. We'll talk with you again. Later on this afternoon, we're going to have much more from the NEWSROOM right here in Baltimore right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:16:49]

WHITFIELD: All right, welcome back. I'm Fredricka Whitfield live here in Baltimore in the NEWSROOM. What you're hearing seems to be a very festive atmosphere, but let me explain. This will be the destination for thousands people who will be marching through Baltimore.

And they will eventually make their way right here to the city hall and I say there is some sort of celebration because there have been many people who have expressed some relief, now that the state's attorney has imposed charges against six police officers.

But at the same time, there is some restraint, because anything can happen between now and any potential trial. I want you to kind of get an idea of what it looks like here downtown in Baltimore right outside city hall.

Just to my right, over here, you are seeing a number of people who are already starting to gather here at War Memorial Plaza. Even though the thousands of people are roughly four miles away in which they'll begin their walk through the city and converge here, many people have already collected here at this plaza.

You see the deejay, who is also playing music, you see seats that are in position for many people, who will be speaking and taking to the podium, and you also see a very significant presence of Baltimore police as well as the national guard in place here, outside city hall, and quite frankly, throughout downtown Baltimore.

As a result of those charges that have been imposed on the six police officers, this is the kind of sentiment that we are seeing throughout the city.

My colleague, Don Lemon, had an opportunity to talk with Marilyn Mosby shortly after she made her announcement of those charges and he asked her about the investigation overall.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Let's talk about the -- what's happening now, what you just did. You just completed your investigation has left you with no doubt that these six officers are responsible for Freddie Gray's death?

MARILYN MOSBY, BALTIMORE STATE ATTORNEY: I can't really get into the specifics of the case, but as a prosecutor, you should not bring charges if you don't believe that you have probable cause that these individuals are responsible for the charges.

I understand the time, commitment, sacrifice that these police officers make time away from their families on a day-to-day basis, you know, risking their lives for the betterment of our communities.

But, at the same time, recognizing that these officers are making those sacrifices and I'm not saying in particularly with this case, those officers that usurp their authority you have to be able to hold them accountable because it does a disservice to the hard-working police officers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So who exactly is this young prosecutor, 35-year-old Marilyn Mosby? CNN's Nick Valencia takes a closer look at the woman, who stepped directly into the glare of the international spotlight.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Shortly after being elected, the chief prosecutor, Baltimore's city state attorney, Marilyn Mosby said that prosecutors have, quote, "The toughest job in America." But the world's attention on her on Friday, she made an unexpected announcement.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[12:20:06] VALENCIA (voice-over): Dressed in pearls and a black jacket, Baltimore state attorney stands tall, she chooses her next words carefully.

MOSBY: The findings of our comprehensive, thorough, and independent investigation coupled with the medical examiner's determination that Mr. Gray's death was a homicide which we received today has led us to believe that we have probable cause to file criminal charges. (voice-over): I learned very early that life isn't always fair. That tomorrow is uncertain, and the environment you grow up in will either build you or break you.

VALENCIA: A self-described product of adversity and triumph, Marilyn Mosby is the youngest chief prosecutor of any major city. Elected in January, the 35-year-old campaigned with passion, personality, and made her case for the people's trust.

MOSBY: What's happening in the state of the city right now a rash of violence has everything to do with the state's attorney who is completely out of touch with various communities throughout Baltimore City.

VALENCIA: Mosby's views on crime and punishment were shaped while she was young, her mother, father, grandfather, and four uncles, all wore a badge. Born in Boston's inner city, Mosby would choose to go her own way, beaming with optimism, her life was ripped apart after her cousin's death, mistaken by another teen for a drug dealer. He was killed on her front doorsteps.

MOSBY: Having to go to court and see my neighbor who had the courage and audacity to cooperate with the police, testify in court and the way in which the District Attorney's Office dealt with my family, I knew I wanted to be an attorney. It was a matter of what type of attorney I wanted to be.

VALENCIA: At Tuskegee University, she was the first in her family to go to college. It's where she met her husband, current Baltimore City Councilman Nick Mosby.

NICK MOSBY, BALTIMORE CITY COUNCILMAN: She's a strong woman. You know she was built for this.

VALENCIA: With her words on Friday morning, it is Mosby now who may have single-handedly restored the faith among the people of Baltimore at a time when they needed it the most.

MOSBY: Accountability.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How are we going to get there?

MOSBY: You're getting it today.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VALENCIA: All six officers involved in Freddie Gray's death have been charged. But still yet to be determined is if they will be found guilty. Nick Valencia, CNN, Atlanta.

WHITFIELD: Well, let's talk more about the road ahead for Marilyn Mosby and the rest of Baltimore. Joining me right now by Skype is Kurt Schmoke. He became Baltimore's first African-American mayor between 1983 and 1987. He also was a state attorney and is now the president of the University of Baltimore. Good to see you, Mr. Mayor.

KURT SCHMOKE, FORMER AFRICAN-AMERICAN MAYOR, BALTIMORE CITY: Thank you very much. Good to see you, too.

WHITFIELD: Or Mr. President. You have so many incredible titles. You take your pick. Which one do you want?

SCHMOKE: I ask people at the university to just call me Kurt and that satisfies everybody. One quick correction --

WHITFIELD: I dare not to do that.

SCHMOKE: I was president from '99.

WHITFIELD: OK, I'll call you Mr. Mayor and president. How about that? So some are considering the charges a relief and then there are those who say we have to be careful. They have to have some reserve. How do you see it?

SCHMOKE: It's both. It's both. For the many who live in Freddie Gray's area of the city and some of the other lower economic level areas of the city, I think was a big relief but I know from my experience as a state's attorney that it's very difficult to convict police officers of criminal acts, so those people who are saying take a wait and see attitude are actually reasonable in their reserve.

WHITFIELD: And you've heard the Fraternal Order of Police, the attorney, Mr. Davey, who said this was a rush to judgment, that this -- these charges come too fast. Do you agree with that?

SCHMOKE: That, I don't agree with because I believe that what Miss Mosby did was start an independent investigation that was going kind of parallel to the police investigation. So she has independent investigator. She can also call upon other investigator sources.

I think, particularly in listening to her lay out the time line, that she was pretty thorough and that there was a basis for those charges.

Now, whether, you know, the problem for the state's attorney is that she has to prove these things beyond a reasonable doubt, which is a very high standard.

[12:25:06] If we were just talking about a lawsuit for wrongful death, the kind of case that the Gray family will probably bring against the city, that has a much lower standard.

That's a civil law standard and the police have already admitted negligence so the Gray family's likely to win a wrongful death suit again the city.

But whether the state's attorney can prove beyond a reasonable doubt all of these charges, that's a high hurdle that she will have to climb over.

WHITFIELD: There have been some legal analysts whose say, because of the hosts of charges, second-degree, manslaughter, to assault, that it is likely that among these six police officers someone might flip, someone may try to rat out the other in which to get the charges against them dropped.

And that this might be strategy of a prosecutor. Is that something, in your view, that is common practice or even a reasonable explanation or analysis?

SCHMOKE: Right. That is a common practice to try to find, after you do your investigation, try to find the least culpable person in that group, person with knowledge of what went on and try to, you know, enter into some kind of agreement that the punishment would be much less for that person.

That's always done in these multiple defendant cases. So, I have no idea exactly what Miss Mosby's strategy is. I think it speaks well of her that we were all surprised that she came out with these charges.

That means she wasn't consulting with a lot of politicians, politics weren't in play here. She was doing it the way you're supposed to, which is kind of in secret, just do your investigation, get the facts, apply them to the law.

So she -- I think she's doing it with integrity. Whether she can win all of those charges, we'll have to see later on.

WHITFIELD: All right. Kurt Schmoke, before I let you go, quickly, when you were mayor, and over a great amount of time here in Baltimore, it's been known about the disparities -- I grew up in the Maryland, Washington, D.C., area and I grew up knowing about the hardships in Baltimore, but is this a different Baltimore today than when you were in office between '83 and '87?

SCHMOKE: Well, you know, the interesting thing about it, I used to say to people that Baltimore was something of a tale of two cities. If you go into our inner harbor area, you see some of the best in urban America.

You go ten blocks west or east then you can see some of the really challenging and difficult areas. But the area that Freddie Gray lived in is one that we poured a lot of resources, new housing, and all kinds of investment up until the time that I left office in 1999.

The question that I'm pondering is what happened between 1999 and 2015 that the unemployment levels, urban distress levels seemed to be just as great as when we made investment in them, in the 1990s.

That's something that we'll all have to figure out as a community so that we can come up with better strategies to improve the quality of life for people in those neighborhoods.

WHITFIELD: All right. Mr. Mayor, Kurt Schmoke, and currently the president of University of Baltimore, thank you so much for your time and perspective. Appreciate it.

SCHMOKE: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: We'll have much more live from Baltimore right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:32:05]

WHITFIELD: Welcome back. I'm Fredricka Whitfield, live in Baltimore. After six Baltimore police officers were charged in the death of Freddie Gray, what do the protesters in the community want to do next?

We know that a number of people are gathering today. They'll be walking through the city on this very sunny day and converge here where all of the music is, stage is set for a big youth rally here at Baltimore City Hall.

Joining me now, someone who perhaps knows Baltimore better than anybody else, former NAACP president and CEO, and also former congressman, former Baltimore city councilman, you name it. All right, good to see you.

I like the word "seasoned" I never use the word old. Good to see you. So you know this city very well, in and out. You're a native son and you became an elected official on the local and the national scale.

So when you look at the climate of this city right now, and all that has transpired including the six -- the charges of six police officers, what's your assessment?

KWEISI MFUME, FORMER PRESIDENT/CEO OF NAACP: My assessment is that finally, people are starting to see externally what many of us have seen internally for many years, great deal of poverty, despair, distrust, disbelief, too oftentimes, and the police department and a sense of deprivation where so many people who are American citizens, feel like they don't matter and people aren't listening.

So the fact that this has a taken place the way it has, I think calls further attention. This is not the end. I think you're going to hear that message over and over from protesters today.

It's a process but it's a process to try to find I way to sensitize our nation to the fact that these communities are all over the country, they could explode at any time and the issue of justice and fairness and opportunity, creating jobs and a way for people to take care of themselves are very, very important.

Freddie Gray, we are all come to know Freddie Gray tragically this way. But, in your view, is he and his case symbolic of so many other Freddie Grays in the city and perhaps even across country?

I know you've been an advocate for this very cause, particularly in the black community and the disparities and the disenfranchisement and the targeting of black males as it pertains to crimes and incarcerations. What do you see this as being a symbolic case as well?

MFUME: It's symbolic in the sense that a crime was committed, that people have got tonight the point that prepared to do whatever they have to do to speak out. Some of it has been through civil disobedience. The thing that makes it not so symbolic however is the fact that this state's attorney after conducting her own parallel investigation decided that she had enough evidence and the state had enough evidence to find probable cause.

Rarely do you see that in some of the other instances. So I think that's the one thing that separates this. But you know, I've got to tell you, we're talking about what happens to African-American men.

[12:35:07] This same sort of thing too often, unfortunately, happens by bad officers, not the good ones obviously, but the bad officers against poor whites, Latinos who are poor in urban areas and it's a mind-set and culture that's got to be changed, mind-set and culture that's got to be revolutionized because at the end of the day we want the same thing.

We want a better life for our children, communities that are safe, to know when we die the next generation will begin to live in a way that we could not.

WHITFIELD: You don't have to know Freddie Gray for this to be an emotional experience. We heard from the young man, Kevin Moore, who videotaped the arrest of Freddie Gray and he said it brought tears to his eyes when he heard the state's prosecutor, the state's attorney. What did this do to you emotionally?

MFUME: Well, you know, maybe I've been around too long, I don't know, but I was always told you always see everything twice in life. So for me, this was harkening back to April 4, 1968 when Dr. King was assassinated and how this city exploded out of anger because they thought there was no justice. So maybe there's a parallel there. That's for me. That took me back to that moment. And it took me back to his words --

WHITFIELD: This is an emotional journey for you, too.

MFUME: It is, it is. You know, Dr. King would be crying out from his grave to remind us that the arc of the universe is long, but that it always bends towards justice. We believe that will be the case here ultimately and eventually.

WHITFIELD: All right, Kweisi Mfume, good to see you. Appreciate it.

MFUME: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Thank you very much. We'll have much more from Baltimore right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:40:52]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREW ZIMMERN, CHEF/TV HOST: I moved from New York City to the twin cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul and when I'm on the east side of the river in St. Paul I hit up the bowling alley. I start coming here in '55. People have been coming here, coming here forever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It hasn't hardly changed.

ZIMMERN: I have yet to find traveling around the United States anything quite like it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

ZIMMERN: Eight lanes in a basement, old Timmy bar, everybody knows each other. Right up there is a lot of money.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

ZIMMERN: We had a local regular like overseas for a couple of years and said when I come back. I want to have a dollar to buy a drink when I come in next.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

MIKE RUNYON, CO-OWNER, RAN-HAM BOWLING LANES: It started there and people caught on to the whole thing. Now it's our retirement fund, someday if they never come back. I bring people from out of town here just to sit down, have a beer, a hamburger, and I say this is what St. Paul is all about.

ZIMMERN: Nice, close community around here. Embarrassing yourself on television by showing the world what a crappy bowler you are is something you have to have really big shoulders to handle. Some of the best fries you'll ever taste, gorgeous traditional bowling alley griddle burger, heaven.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eighty four.

ZIMMERN: Somehow I just got cheated out of a lot of points. Let's see how we did, shall we, 122. They say you should be able to bowl your weight. With my, that's not happening.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Welcome back. I'm Fredricka Whitfield in Baltimore. At a city hall where just hours from now there will be a youth rally here in solidarity for 25-year-old Freddie Gray. One of the attorneys for the Gray family said, just yesterday, that the charges make sense.

Talking about the six Baltimore police officers that have been charged as it relates to death of Freddie Gray and that, according to Billy Murphy, justice can be had in Baltimore.

This is a very painful process for the family then are indeed very fragile now, still trying to recover and cope with the death of the 25-year-old man.

Joining me right now is Jason Downs, an attorney for the family of Freddie Gray. Good to see you. So, your colleague, Billy Murphy said, charges make sense. Why, in your view, are you convinced these are the right charges for these police officers? JASON DOWNS, ATTORNEY FOR THE GRAY FAMILY: With the information that we have right now, and again, that is limited information, because we are not privy to all of the information that the state's attorney's office possesses. But with that information, the charges in this case do make sense at this point.

WHITFIELD: Do the state's attorney reach out to you or let you know she would be revealing these charges, that she had come to an assessment?

DOWNS: No. We learned about the charges at the same time that everyone else learned about the charges.

WHITFIELD: And there has been some criticism from many in the legal community who say, you know, perhaps she may have overcharged and that could jeopardize this case.

DOWNS: Well, anyone that's saying that, if they don't have access to the information that the state's attorney office has, they're saying that in the dark.

In other words, they don't have all of the information with which to make an accurate assessment of this case as it relates to a criminal case. So they -- no one should speculate as to the accuracy, the exact accuracy of the charges unless they have all of the information.

The only people that are all of that information are the state's attorneys here in Baltimore City.

WHITFIELD: Is the family convinced that Freddie Gray, his fatal injuries, came in the van or that perhaps these injuries came when he was taken down?

DOWNS: At this point, because we don't have all of the medical records, because we don't have a physical copy of the autopsy report, we can't make that independent determination. We need to see all of the records before making our independent determination as to where the fatal injury occurred, but it's clear this injury occurred while in police custody.

WHITFIELD: So is there any worry or even concern that if after more evaluation it is determined that his fatal injury didn't happen in the van, perhaps it happened during the arrest.

[12:45:05] It would be difficult for this state -- for this prosecutor to alter or change the charges imposed on these officers. Because right now it appears based on the second-degree manslaughter it would be the driver most culpable.

But if the fatal injury took place before that point that might create a problem, would it not? There at this point we need to see all of the evidence.

But we have to keep in mind that the officers in this case have been charged via criminal information then have not been indicted at this point. It's up to a grand jury to determine whether there's probable cause to issue an indictment on any particular charge. We have to kind in mind that that hasn't even occurred at this juncture.

WHITFIELD: Tell me how the family's doing. How are they coping and managing with not only the death of their loved one, but that it is in the national/international spotlight and all of this attention is descending upon them?

DOWNS: Well, the family appreciates the support that they're receiving from the Baltimore community and, frankly, the community at large, the American community, international opportunity, they appreciate their support.

Again, they don't want violence, but they do appreciate the support. They are obviously grief stricken, dealing with the death of their loved one, extremely saddened, but right now they have hope that justice will be served.

WHITFIELD: Are they able or do they feel like they can manage the notion that the outcome or how this investigation is handled, particularly the outcome of the case as it relates to Freddie Gray, will possibly be either precedent setting or at least leave a mark or make some kind of impression, if not just in Baltimore, but even nationally, within the justice system?

DOWNS: Sure. The family of Freddie Gray, they are hoping that the legacy of Freddie Gray is of peace. They want it to be a peaceful legacy. They don't want this to happen to anyone else's son, brother. They're hoping police brutality stops. Not only in the black and brown communities, but in communities across the country, that's what they're trying for.

WHITFIELD: They are trying really hard -- we heard from the stepfather yesterday who said, look, if you're going to come, those out of towners, if you come here, come with peace.

DOWNS: Yes.

WHITFIELD: And that Freddie wouldn't want people to lose jobs.

DOWNS: Right.

WHITFIELD: So he's speaking to a couple of things. Unrest, he's talking about the disparities, the unemployment, and the lack of opportunities. It is a very big message.

DOWNS: It certainly is. And what he's getting is, we don't want our community to be burned down. Mr. Shipley's saying that he would not -- Freddie Gray would not want to see the community that he loved burned down to the ground. That hurts everyone.

It doesn't help the Freddie Gray cause. It doesn't help the cause for Baltimore. It doesn't help the cause in America. It helps no one at all. He would not want to see the community burned down.

WHITFIELD: All right, Jason Downs, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

All right, we'll have much more from downtown Baltimore right outside city hall where in just a matter of hours people who are right now gathering about four miles from here for a very sizable demonstration that's expected throughout the day.

They will converge right here, you see them making a move already through the streets, walking peacefully, they will eventually come right here to this war memorial plaza outside city hall. That's why you hear music here.

Right now a festive environment but, at the same time, people know that they are reserving some of their enthusiasm because much more could happen in between the charges and any potential trial involving these six police officers. We'll be right back after this.

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[12:51:51]

WHITFIELD: The Freddie Gray case is moving to courts now with six Baltimore police officers charged in his death. Let's bring in our legal guy, Avery Friedman, a civil rights attorney and law professor in Cleveland, and Richard Herman in New York, criminal defense attorney and law professor joining us from Las Vegas.

All right, good to see you both of you. Sorry, you're not here with me in a very noisy Baltimore where a big youth rally is taking place in hours. Hopefully we can hear each other.

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: You're fine.

WHITFIELD: How about if I call upon -- good -- call upon you first, Avery. Was that press conference, in your view, unethical involving the prosecutor laying out the charges?

FRIEDMAN: I thought the press conference was absolutely wonderful and while the -- Miss Mosby got a little carried away with no justice, no peace, that's a community organization cradle, it's not what a prosecutor does. Identifying it, clear, crisp, she did exactly what she was supposed to do.

WHITFIELD: All right, so Richard, now what? Try to I guess paint a picture where this case goes because I just spoke with the attorney for the family, he's underscoring while these may be charges, they haven't been indicted yet, it's up to the grand jury. Explain how this recommendation from the prosecutor might play a role in that.

RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Fred, we have miles to go before we sleep on a criminal conviction in this case. Procedurally, what will happen is the prosecutor has 30 days to evaluate the case, determine whether they want to go forward.

Do they want to conduct a preliminary hearing at which time there will be evidence introduced, criminal defense attorneys will have a field day getting information they normally wouldn't not get. I don't believe that's going to take place.

I believe they're going to a grand jury despite what happened with Michael Brown. They're fearful, try to get a grand jury conviction, a true bill, indictment here, and go to trial.

You have several issues, Fred, was there reasonable suspicion to stop him, was flight in a high crime area reasonable suspicion? Yes. Is there a probable cause to arrest? Based on the flight there was.

Do we have a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt? The jury will determine that. We don't know any evidence right now. We know nothing, nothing. Nothing has been tested in court before a jury subject to cross-examination. This is a long way to go here, Fred, before you got a criminal conviction.

WHITFIELD: So, Avery, in your view, were there charges missing because we heard the state's attorney say no probable cause, no violation, he was carrying, Freddie Gray, was carrying a pocketknife, that is not unlawful.

But I've hear the language of some legal analysts who say, kidnapping, he was essentially kidnapped. Is that ridiculous or reasonable?

HERMAN: Ridiculous.

FRIEDMAN: It's a fair thing to say. It's a fair characterization. Look, they chase him, that's legal. Supreme Court says it's legal. Once they realized there was no crime, they charged him with a switch blade, Fredricka. The guy had a pocketknife.

[12:55:03] At that point, everything really gets out of control. So I think it's a fair characterization. Again, there's no kidnapping charge per se. The prosecutor will be moving forward on the elements of the 28 charges that she has leveled against them.

Where I agree is that we've got a long way to go. I think there will be a waiver of a preliminary hearing and see an indictment after Thursday.

HERMAN: Fred, there will be absolutely be no waiver.

WHITFIELD: You're seeing demonstrators I want to let people know what you're seeing. But go ahead, Richard, with your point.

HERMAN: Yes, Fred, there will absolutely be no waiver of a preliminary hearing. Defense attorneys want that hearing. They want to get information and evidence. I think you might get a grand jury may indictment before the criminal preliminary hearing takes place.

That's what we could see here. But I'll tell you one thing, Fred, I disagree with Avery, I'll tell you, a civil wrongful death case, I think, at this juncture, is a slam dunk for the family and that's going to be a multimillion dollar word for the family, civilly.

WHITFIELD: All right. All right, Richard Herman, Avery Friedman, thank you so much for your insight. Appreciate it. More from Baltimore and it all starts right after this.

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