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Curfew Lifted In Baltimore; Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 03, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:20] FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. And thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredericka Whitfield live in Baltimore.

The city-wide curfew in Baltimore has been lifted. Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake said she did not want to keep it place at single day longer than necessary. The governor also just announced National Guard troops are pulling out from Baltimore, but in phases.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. LARRY HOGAN (R), BALTIMORE: We have already started withdraw the guards. Trucks are pulling out this morning. It's going to take a little bit while. You know, we brought in 4,000 people this week to keep the city safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: This comes as the city prepares for a faith-based march and rally right here at city hall plaza. That starts the next hour.

Meantime, CNN's Rene Marsh and Nick Valencia are here in Baltimore. Let's start with Renee who is outside the just-reopened Mandowman mall. That was the mall that was looted by a number of people Monday afternoon into the evening.

Rene, what happened there today when the mayor showed up?

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION AND GOVERNMENT REGULATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you, Fred, this, as you said this was ground zero for where all that looting and violence started. I just took a swing through. Not every single business has reopened. I did also see of the businesses that were open, many of the business owners were assessing the loss because they just weren't clear at this point how much they lost.

I also saw the National Guard inside, essentially doing walking patrols to make sure everything is on the up and up. But as you mentioned, not long ago, the mayor was standing right outside of the mall, not only to announce it was reopening, but also to reiterate that the curfew that the city had been under had been lifted. I did get a chance to ask her what was the difference from yesterday to today. What changed to make her decide to lift that curfew? Here is what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MAYOR STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE, BALTIMORE: And so yesterday we had some of the same outside protesters we had on Saturday. When the peaceful protests turned into destruction, and we were very cautious that we were able to get through that night without having it turn into what happened last Saturday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARSH: Well, she went on to say that she is very confident in the state of affairs at this point. She says much of the unrest has calmed down, but she says that doesn't mean that there isn't more work to be done.

But let's be clear. She has faced criticism from her own constituents, business owners who said that they really, their bottom line has been hit. They thought this curfew should have and could have been lifted a lot sooner. But she said this was all in the interest of public safety. In her own words, she felt confident about the current state of affairs -- Fred?

WHITFIELD: All right, Rene Marsh, we'll check back with you. Thank you so much.

All right, let's talk more now about the National Guard drawdown. Nick Valencia is on that part of the story.

Nick, what more is the governor saying about this drawdown of National Guard troops?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We heard from him in the last hour, Fredricka, talk about the presence of thousands, upwards of about 5,000 National Guard troops, majority of which will continue to stay. It's going to be a slow unwind according to both the mayor and the governor. This isn't going to be something that happens immediately overnight. That imagery will continue to stay here. Those National Guard troops will continue to have a sort of presence here within the city and other areas outside of downtown. He spoke about it more in detail at a press conference a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOGAN: It's been a very hard week, but we kept everybody safe. Since Monday night, we haven't had any serious problems. I just thank everybody in the community for their help and keeping the calm, keeping the peace. We couldn't have done it without them. It's going to take a while for us to get totally back to normal. But I think lifting the curfew is a good idea. It's been a rough week. But let's get back to normal in the city and get people back to work and school and get people back into the city to visit the shops that were really devastated this week and the small mom and pop stores and restaurants, they need your help. We want to encourage everybody to come back to the city. It's safe. We've got calm and peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: To that point of normalcy that the governor was making, I spoke to some demonstrators just a short time ago. And they say there are concerns the potential could continue of more demonstrations, clashes perhaps with police because so long as that presence is here, things will not feel normal, Fredricka.

What I saw yesterday in marches with some of the demonstrators was not so much protests against what they perceive injustices against Freddie Gray as people upset the curfew was still in place. They feel that should have been lifted a long time ago. Now that that has been lifted, others say the conversations of healing can truly begin.

[14:05:31] WHITFIELD: All right, Nick Valencia, thank you so much.

Let's talk more about the curfew being lifted immediately. And we also know that National Guard having this drawdown but in a gradual manner.

CNN's law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes is with me now.

So, as we mentioned this happens in phases. You heard the mayor say immediate curfew for the benefit, largely, of the citizens here. National Guard will be drawn down according to the governor. All of this comes at what risk?

THOMAS FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, one thing, Fredricka, as I talked to dozens of members of the National Guard over the last couple of days. And one was from Annapolis and every other one was from Baltimore. So, if something happens, they are only a short call, you know, to come back if a call is made. And I think their question was, call should have been made Monday and it wasn't because the unrest that unfolded and eventually turned into serious property damage, bringing them in, that started earlier in the day. Their feeling is that backup police and possibly the guard should have been called out and could have been here before the main violence started. Nobody was called up until after it was all over.

WHITFIELD: But it sounds like at this point the message being sent from the governor and mayor is that mission accomplished perhaps temporarily. Those are not their words, but my words. But the message being sent to the public says that the reinforcements in place were effective. It maintained some peace, although there were people arrested for the violation of curfew, but the looting ended, the fires ended, and so they did their job.

FUENTES: It's hard to argue against that. That's what occurred. When they weren't here and when the state police weren't here and all the surrounding counties weren't here on Monday, they had 200 businesses burn, dozens of police cars burn. Police officers going to the hospital with serious injuries. Firefighters being pelted with rocks. Fire hoses being cut. People fleeing their apartment buildings clutching their babies because smoke is coming in, and fearing the building might burn down with them it in. It's hard to argue that once the guard came, the police came, the backups came, the counties came, it stopped. People complained, you had curfew violations, but nothing like what happened Monday.

WHITFIELD: And perhaps a prelude to the changes that we are hearing from the governor and mayor today may have come last night. They were people who were arrested because they violated the 10:00 p.m. curfew. And our Ryan Young was there when he witnessed the arrest of many who had violated the curfew. And it appeared as though and his assessment was that some of the people were being treated more gently. Although, there was the image of one man who was dragged after being cuffed and pepper sprayed, but he also described, I think we have the clip now. He also described how there was the use of video cameras, and that most likely may be a new tactic (INAUDIBLE).

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There is the gentleman there with a white hat on. Looks like from here. And he has a small hand camera. And every time the officers get ready to load someone in the back of this van, he takes a video picture looks like of their face that you right there as he backing up. And He takes a full body shot. And they are basically cataloging each person as they are being put in the van.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Do you believe this is temporary or is this likely going to be a tactic used, a tool used, the use of cameras?

FUENTES: It may be. It shows on the part of police they get concerned of being falsely accused of brutality in cases where it doesn't happen so if they can have dash cams, body cams and hand-held independent cams to show, you know, how they are treating people, the better.

You know, police hate curfew violations. These hate them. I know, you know, I stood in front of the Nazis in Illinois in the '70s as a cop having to guard that protest. And you know, the people start throwing things and everything. And none of them were major league baseball players so it landed on us instead of the Nazis.

But you know, when you are out there, to go arrest somebody for disorderly conduct means you are going to put your hands on them and bad things happen. They can fall down.

WHITFIELD: In this case, during the week after Monday, when we saw these arrests taking place from the curfews, we didn't see that. We didn't see the same thing you may have seen.

FUENTES: No. You don't see that, but that bad things could still happen. So if you touch somebody with your two hands as a police officer, they trip and break their neck, big problem. You pepper spray somebody not knowing they have congestive heart failure, and asthma, other ailments and they drop dead.

(CROSSTALK)

[14:10:03] FUENTES: So that is way they don't want to deal with minor charges.

WHITFIELD: And so, you are also supporting why we did see Baltimore police when they did earlier in the week descend on some of those violating the curfew. They had their riot gear. They pounced on those who were violating the curfew before arresting them.

FUENTES: They didn't pounce on all of them. They gave them hours.

WHITFIELD: I saw it right here on the lawn.

FUENTES: So they did give them time to try to give it up, you know, after 10:00.

WHITFIELD: But it's not sort of arrest. It is not a passive arrest where as last night we saw some passive arrest comparatively.

FUENTES: Soon as they know. But you know, early on, you know, you still had the disturbances and the police being attacked not too long ago. You know, as the week progressed and didn't happen again, it gave the police more confidence. OK, we'll try to be kinder and gentler and try to do the best we can to not injure people and not let them injure themselves.

WHITFIELD: So now what looking forward? If National Guard or once they move out completely, curfew has been lifted, Baltimore police are back to primarily being the major and the only force here, how does this police force brace itself for any other potential given that the process is very long? There still has to be a grand jury ruling. There still has to be trial. There still has to be an end result from that trial. So this police department braces itself for what and in what way?

FUENTES: Well, if news breaks that's going to be unpopular with the community, I think you are going to see a shorter time frame of assessment on the part of the mayor, on the part of the governor and part of the commissioner police for the deployment of necessary resources to protect both property and people and not have to choose one or the other. I just think that the response time will be quicker next time. I think that it is lesson learned, hopefully.

WHITFIELD: Tom Fuentes, thank you so much. We will check back with you a little bit later on.

We'll have much more from Baltimore live right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:20] WHITFIELD: Welcome back. I'm Fredricka Whitfield in Baltimore.

Well, six days now after the looting and fires here in Baltimore, and a curfew went into effect and National Guards started rolling in, now today the mayor said an immediate lifting of the curfew, and the governor of Maryland says that the drawdown of National Guard troops will begin here in Baltimore.

Let's talk about the legal road ahead as it pertains to the business leaders here in the community, residents and the police officers who are now facing charges in the death of 25-year-old Freddie Gray. CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos is with me now.

So let's talk first about the lifting of the curfew. National Guard troops on their way out. We heard from a number of business people here in Baltimore who said we have lost so much money as a result of the curfews. I went to a restaurant last night and they were closing down early. They wanted to make sure they got all their employees out in order to meet the curfew. And they all justified the amount of money lost. Will these businesses be able to ask or demand some compensation as a result of the curfew that went into place?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Constitutionally, Fred, under the takings clause there is precedent in the concept if the government wants to put a highway through your house, they can absolutely take it. The only requirement is that they pay you just compensation. Now, what that is has been the source of litigation over the years. But it raises an interesting question. If they don't necessarily put a highway through your old store but demand or force you to close, does a citizen have any right to request any just compensation for the reasonable foreseeable losses he suffered in the form of sales? The problem is when it comes to things like sales and services, those aren't always very easy to calculate or at least the government is going to say, well, they are going to err on the low end of the blue book. And of course, the citizen who lost the sales on a sad beautiful Saturday afternoon is going to say I might have sold more of these widgets than I would have all year.

So we do have constitutional provisions whenever the government takes your property. Whether the government says you must close early, if you have a claim against them. The government is notoriously difficult to sue.

WHITFIELD: Yes. It's an uphill battle then.

All right, if you are representing any number of the six police officers now facing very serious charges as it relates to the death of Freddie Gray, what are you doing this week in preparation for what's next?

CEVALLOS: First, you are busy conducting your own investigation with your own investigators. And second, you are interviewing your client much more extensively than anyone else could have because you have that attorney/client privilege. Your client can tell you much more or will be willing to volunteer much more information than he or she might have when they gave a statement. Not that they weren't being truthful, but you have an access to your client the government simply does not have. So you are starting to look at different differences. I believe going forward, this case will center on that knife.

WHITFIELD: Why?

CEVALLOS: Here is why. First, we are going to need to know what kind of knife it is because the original probable cause was based on the idea that this knife was illegal. Now, citizens may be surprise to find -- WHITFIELD: But that was only the probable cause after he was chased.

There was no probable cause, at least, according to the prosecutor, right, established in order to pursue him.

CEVALLOS: Well, the prosecutor says there is no probable cause, but it seems to me in my review of similar cases, and I have actually found some cases in other jurisdictions that dealt with a wrong or incorrect arrest made on the belief that someone had a switchblade or an illegal knife. And in those cases, the question is not ultimately whether or not the knife was legal or not. It's whether or not the facts available to that officer, whether or not he reasonably could have concluded based on his observations that knife violated the applicable switchblade law.

WHITFIELD: So they will try to argue that they saw the knife in his waist band and that's why pursued him, but then they made the discovery, saw the knife, they called it a switchblade even though it turns out to be a lawful small knife.

CEVALLOS: We say switchblade, but spring loaded knife -- some laws criminalize more than just the traditional idea of that switchblade that pops out like stiletto. Some of these are just spring or even knives that can be opened quickly with the flick of a wrist. You've seen different martial arts knives that could be potentially illegal. And with all these different kinds of knives, you could imagine it might be difficult to figure out which ones are illegal.

So the question really properly is more looking at a knife. If it's a plastic lunch knife that you get with your lunch, that take-out lunch, no one reasonably could believe that is an illegal knife. So that is just a silly example of the assessment. It's not going to be whether a knife was ultimately illegal. It is whether a reasonable person would have believed that knife warranted probable cause for an arrest.

[14:20:13] WHITFIELD: All right. You are going to be back, Danny, because we are going to talk more about the charges overall and how their attorneys might be preparing for their defense.

Thanks so much, Danny Cevallos. Appreciate that.

We will have much more live from Baltimore right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:24:06] SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We'll head back to Baltimore in just a moment. But first, a student from New York University is being held in North Korea. State media is reporting that Won Moon Joo (ph), originally from South Korea, illegally crossed over the border from China. This comes as two other South Koreans are detained in North Korea for allegedly spying.

Our Will Ripley got an exclusive interview with the accused spies from inside Pyongyang. WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Shortly after landing here in

Pyongyang, it quickly became clear to us that the North Korean government it keen to display the South Koreans that they have arrested and are accusing of being spies for the South Korean government, a claim that South Korea denies. We spoke with two of the accused spies and we were also informed by government officials about a third arrest, a 21-year-old New York University student, a South Korean citizen who is a permanent resident of the United States that, the DPRK claims tried to cross into North Korea illegally. We have requested to interview that student. We have not been told if we will have access to Wan Moon Joo (ph), but we will continue to work our sources on the ground.

The two South Koreans who we did speak to, (INAUDIBLE), a businessman, 56 years old and also (INAUDIBLE), 61-year-old, a former missionary, both of them South Koreans who were living and working in China, a part of China right on the border with Korea where north and south Koreans are often intermix. And this is where these two men say the South Korean government recruited them and offered them money to spy, to sell the secrets of North Korea for the benefit of the South Korean government. Listen to what one of them had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Before coming over to this part, I believed in getting myself involved in intelligence work and spy work and working for the government. I felt that was part of my duty and the quickest way to international unification, but now things have changed since I came over to this part.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RIPLEY: Both men had remarkably similar talking points saying they were raised to hate North Korea and they felt that he spice was the right thing to do. And now they say after being detained here, they have a completely different perspective. They say North Korea, they do not believe, violates the human rights of prisoners and others. But of course, keep in mind these two men are in a very precarious situation. Their lives and freedom hang on every word they say. They know the North Korean government is listening when they spoke to CNN, even though we had no preconditions set on our interview.

We are working to put together a more full version of what they said and will bring that to you here on CNN.

Will Ripley, CNN, Pyongyang, North Korea.

SERFATY: Will Ripley with that exclusive report from Pyongyang. Thank you.

Next, we'll head back to Baltimore for the latest of the mayor lifting the curfew.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)