Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Protesters Gather Near City Hall as Curfew Lifted; Interfaith Rally to Begin Soon; Interview with Maryland State Sen. Catherine Pugh; Freddie Gray Family Still Mourning; "The Wire" Actress Speaks Out; No Justice for Eric Garner?; Protests in Tel Aviv. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired May 03, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:53] FREDERICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello again. And thanks so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield live in Baltimore. People are already starting to gather here right near city hall. An interfaith rally is about to get under way right outside the plaza here. This, just hours after the mayor lifts the citywide curfew and the governor announces National Guard troops are starting to draw down.

Nick Valencia and Athena Jones are here in Baltimore with me.

Lets begin with you, Nick, the governor says he is drawing down the National Guard. Are you seeing any signs of a pullback from the National Guard?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Not here where we are. Not within eyesight. We still see that National Guard presence.

But what we were told earlier, at a press conference about two hours ago from the governor, is that that withdrawal or that wind down will continue to happen. It might not happen as fast as some people here in this community would like it to.

Many here expected to be a part of this 3:00 p.m. faith-based coalition of community leaders or organizers here outside of city hall, another demonstration to continue this conversation surrounding the death of Freddie Gray.

A couple of those people that are in attendance here, Russ Sharpe, Shawn Harrison, vice president and president of Maryland chapter of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives.

Thank you so much for taking the time.

Now, you have a unique perspective that you could talk to. So much criticism has been put forth on the Baltimore Police Department. Your perspective on that: Do you understand that criticism? If so, why and why not?

RUSS SHARPE, NOBLE: I understand the criticism. I don't agree with most of it, simply because you're talking about human beings doing their job under serious and difficult circumstances most of the time when you're working in some of the city's neighborhoods, not getting the kind of cooperation you need to solve cases, serious cases. Not being felt like you're appreciated by the folks that you're trying to help.

Most people take this job simply because they want to help people. And they get out to a neighborhood and people don't allow them to do that.

I remember the first time I got on the street and tried to talk to some -- a young man about what he was doing. And the first thing he wanted to do was push me away because I was the police, as opposed to seeing me as a human being that wanted to help him.

VALENCIA: Shawn Harrison, you also have an extensive law enforcement history background. You understand the pressures that the police department are under here in Baltimore. The decision to lift the curfew. Was it made appropriately? What's your take on this?

SHAWN HARRISON, NOBLE: I think it was made appropriately. I think it's time to let our city heal, and heal without any interpretation that, you know, we can only protest peacefully at a certain time. I think we are free now to walk our streets again and enjoy the city the way we know it.

Having -- both of us having been in law enforcement for many, many years, together I guess we have about 70 years of law enforcement experience, we've seen a lot of things in our cities.

As a chapter president in NOBLE and also a current police chief, I think that we have to get better at our jobs. There should not be a disconnect between our communities and law enforcement.

Many of us took the oath, we all took one solemn oath to protect and to serve our communities, and this is what we're here to do. Do we do it well all the time? No, but we got to get better at it.

VALENCIA: Hopefully, they will continue to get better. That conversation needs to happen. And those conversations are happening here.

You see a very diverse group out to attend this rally here today, which was expected to start about 3:00 p.m. Running a little late, Fred, but we'll continue to keep an eye on it. Back to you.

WHITFIELD: Right. All right. Thanks so much. Skies are sunny. It's a nice, very warm day. It's actually close to 80 degrees. But this is a day when people definitely want to come outside, and we're starting to see them trickle in. They've got their kids, they've got their dogs. They're making a day of it.

All right, thanks so much, Nick Valencia.

So, a mall on the city's west side, we're talking just roughly four to six miles from here, damaged in Monday's riots, just reopened today. CNN's Athena Jones is at the Mondawmin Mall.

So, Athena, along with the opening of the mall, the mayor was there and that's when she also made the announcement of this curfew being lifted immediately.

[15:05:03] ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Fred. The curfew has been lifted immediately. You know, a lot of businesses were being affected by that 10:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m. curfew, so that's going to be good news for them.

But this mall's reopening is an important symbol on the road -- an important step, I should say, along the road to normalcy for this city.

As you mentioned, this is where the unrest began on Monday afternoon. We were here. This is the mall that was looted. Now, it's reopening. Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake was here a little earlier. Let's listen to what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE (D), BALTIMORE: This is just a great day for this community to have the mall reopen, just a wonderful day. I was proud to support the investments that I think it was the Baltimore Development Corporation made into this mall to do the major renovations. And to see it bounce back so quickly just gives me a lot of optimism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JONES: So, there you have it, a lot of optimism, she said.

Now, we were inside. There are signs of damage. There were store windows that were broken that are now boarded up. We saw a jewelry store where the display cases had been destroyed. But we also saw people beginning to get back to normal.

There are a couple of National Guards troops we saw in there. A handful of folks still on the scene. But, otherwise, people were going along with their usual Sunday business. So, one more step along the road back to getting things back to normal here, Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Athena. And, of course, Athena, I know you remember just like everyone does, it was outside that Mondawmin Mall when many of the kids were coming out, and you saw a very powerful mother, let's call her Mama Toya now, everyone knows her by her first name, she rounded up her son.

Well, guess what? She was only responding to a call that one Maryland state senator made that mothers, fathers, you need to go get your babies from the streets and get them back home. That was Catherine Pugh. She's with me now.

Good to see you.

MARYLAND STATE SENATOR CATHERINE PUGH: Good to see you.

WHITFIELD: So, you were trying to encourage some peace there by asking parents to get involved. And you have been doing so consistently ever since. Now the curfew is being lifted. You were out here yesterday conveying peace. Last night, yesterday.

PUGH: Every day.

WHITFIELD: This is the result that you were looking for?

PUGH: Sure.

WHITFIELD: A lifting of the curfew?

PUGH: Well, the lifting of the curfew is important. It's important to the economic development of our city. It's important to the business community. It certainly is important to the neighbors in the community who have to access services and the retail operations and all of the entities that are in our city.

Economic development is the key to our growth and development. So, yes, it was essential that we lift the curfew.

WHITFIELD: And that's the key to development. And we're hearing from so many people who perhaps were not familiar with the plight of Baltimore, that there aren't enough jobs, particularly that are accessible, particularly in that neighborhood. Very little employment. We know the employment levels or the unemployment levels are very high.

PUGH: Very high.

WHITFIELD: So, what -- with the position you're in, I spoke with Congressman Cummings, and even local leadership, what kind of position are you in to be able to recruit or get investors to say we got to begin somewhere? Someone has to take a chance and invest by building businesses that provide jobs so that people have options?

(CROSSTALK)

WHITFIELD: So there is no, like, bus system that's even getting people in and out of that community one time.

PUGH: Well, we've got subway; we've got buses. Let me just say, Baltimore is a microcosm of America, you know. And that's why it's unfortunate for Mr. Gray that he actually becomes a symbol not only of the criminal justice that needs -- reform that needs to take place, but the race relations conversation that needs to take place, the diversity of our wealth that needs to take place.

There is a disparity. And you can look around the city, there are various pockets that we've done a great job in terms of developing, but when you look into the neighborhoods and some of the neighborhoods, and especially over there in west Baltimore, where I live, a lot more development needs to take place. And it is indicative of urban environments all across the country, when you think about the disparities that have occurred, the changes that have not been made since the 1960s.

And so, that conversation around race relations, economic development, the sharing of wealth, those are the conversations that need to take place. But this can't happen...

(CROSSTALK)

PUGH: ... let me just say this.

WHITFIELD: There is momentum.

PUGH: Yeah, there is momentum. But this is not something that just city government, state government. This is about private/public partnership, the federal government. Everybody has to get engaged and recognize that our urban environments need jobs, manufacturing needs to come back to our neighborhoods and job creation.

But also remember that the African-American community is not monolithic.

WHITFIELD: Right.

PUGH: We have the very rich and the very poor. And people who have the capacity...

WHITFIELD: But elected leadership can help bring some leverage to some of those private investors.

PUGH: Well, actually, we do. Every year, we do. But it's not enough.

WHITFIELD: Yeah.

PUGH: You need public and private partnerships. Also, if you can do downtown, you can do uptown as well.

WHITFIELD: And I wonder now. This city is in the spotlight, your role is in the spotlight. The mayor's role is very much in the spotlight. There were a few missteps. Even the mayor will admit to that. In particular, she was on "Meet the Press" earlier today and she was asked specifically by Chuck Todd, asking her the question, do you regret using the phrase, "space to destroy"?

[15:10:03] And this is what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAWLINGS-BLAKE: I certainly think that it was taken out of context. But let me say this. I'm from Baltimore. My parents are from here. I'm raising my daughter here. I'm a public defender.

As a city council person, as mayor, I've always worked to strengthen my city. We fought to get those stores in our communities. I would never condone rioting. I don't -- just period. I would never condone it.

CHUCK TODD, NBC HOST, "MEET THE PRESS": So you wish you didn't use that phrase?

RAWLINGS-BLAKE: I certainly used the wrong phrase to talk about what was clear, that there were people who took advantage of the peaceful demonstrators' First Amendment rights, and they used it to destroy our city.

And I don't condone it. And we'll make sure that those individuals will be held accountable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Do you worry that her words, whether it be last week or even today or along the way, will be that leverage that some of those investors use to say we don't want to invest, especially if there is this message initially that it's okay to destroy property?

PUGH: I don't think that's the message. And, let me just be real clear. I'm not a Monday morning quarterback, but here's what I do know, that, you know, there were some misguided people, some folks who took advantage of the situation.

And, you know, I think we got that under control. Monday was not indicative of Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday in terms of what happened in the city.

And even when outsiders came in to protest with us, you know, I think that what you saw were people saying, we don't want to return to normal. We really want to move the criminal justice system forward. We want economic development changes in our communities and our neighborhoods.

Again, this is not just Baltimore. This is urban America. And that's why this conversation around race relations and what do you mean when you talk about criminal justice reform. And part of what I'm talking about is psychological evaluations for police officers who stay on the job over a period of time. That needs to be an ongoing thing going on in our police department.

WHITFIELD: I really hope that kicks in.

PUGH: Well, that's gonna be...

(CROSSTALK)

PUGH: That kind of legislation is gonna go forward in this session upcoming in January.

WHITFIELD: So it takes time.

PUGH: It takes time...

WHITFIELD All right.

PUGH: ... but it can happen.

WHITFIELD: All right, State Senator Catherine Pugh, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it.

PUGH: Appreciate... (CROSSTALK)

WHITFIELD: Something tells me you're gonna be right there, and right up there at the microphone as part of this (inaudible) rally.

PUGH: Well, you know, that's the not goal. I think what I want to do is listen to what the people are saying.

WHITFIELD: OK. Very good. All right, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

PUGH: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right, coming up, more conversations about the road ahead, especially the legal road ahead. The family of Freddie Gray, they are at the edge of their seat. Of course, they are relieved. We heard from one of the family attorneys over the past couple of days, saying, yes, these charges are the right thing to do.

But, now what? I talked with Billy Murphy coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:17] WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back. We're live in Baltimore. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Right now, you're looking at a overall view, dozens of people have turned out for this interfaith rally here at the plaza right in front of city hall. Many of them bowing their heads, praying.

It's all in solidarity for the 25-year-old Freddie Gray who died while this police custody. And now the focus is what next -- what next for this city?

The citywide curfew has been lifted. The National Guard is being phased out. Six police officers are now being charged as it relates to Freddie Gray's death.

And, last night, it was a quieter night, although there were some arrests. But the mayor of this city says it's time to return to some normalcy, allow the businesses to get back into place. And that's why she said the curfew needs to be lifted.

Let's talk more now, however, about the road ahead, especially for Freddie Gray's family. Lead attorney, Billy Murphy, with me now.

I heard you a couple of days ago when you said, you know, these charges are justified. This is the right thing to do.

But, for this family, which is very fragile right now, they're still grieving the loss of 25-year-old Freddie. what do they do? Who supports them? How do you help them in this space between charges and a grand jury, which has yet to indict?

BILLY MURPHY, LEAD ATTORNEY FOR FREDDIE GRAY'S FAMILY: They are very gratified by the love that this community has shown to them and for the empathy in this situation. That's what they need. And they need to be left alone. Because, you know, there are a whole bunch of people who want to put microphones in their mouths and hear what they have to say for their own news networks. Every day, I ask everybody to show forbearance about that in the days ahead.

There will be a time when they have healed enough to withstand that.

WHITFIELD: So, the six officers after being charged, they surrendered without incident, arrested, booked, but they've all been released on bond. Their whereabouts unknown.

Is it the case of Freddie Gray's family where they have to be uprooted? Do they have to live and work elsewhere because of the kind of attention that you mentioned is being descended upon them?

MURPHY: It hasn't really been that bad. And I don't want to say yet, because I don't want to encourage anybody to make this situation worse. But they're doing fine under the circumstances.

WHITFIELD: There have been some questions about a potential conflict of interest, whether it pertains to the prosecutor not sharing with, you know, the city that she was going to make this announcement, the fact the prosecutor is married to a city councilman. There have been conflicts that have been brought up as it pertains to you knowing her, working with her.

How do you respond to that? And do you think that in any way jeopardizes the path to justice?

MURPHY: You mean when the police union gives $3,500 to her campaign, that that ought to be something worth talking about? No. When my son gives $5,000 to the campaign or whatever he gave, should that be worth talking about? No.

What ought to be worth talking about is the quality of what we do, and not the appearance that somebody who is a partisan puts on that quality. And I'm satisfied that she is a quality person, Marilyn Mosby. That I married a quality person. And that everybody else in the process is of high quality. That's all we need to worry about.

WHITFIELD: Do you feel like this is just the beginning of what could be many distractions as the case moves forward?

MURPHY: Well, yes. Anything that causes this much attention is gonna to be under the microscope, as it were. And so, yes.

[15:20:00] Everybody's got to be on their best behavior, probably better than we ordinarily act in our day-to-day lives.

WHITFIELD: And, what are your worries or maybe even concerns, just about the city overall? Yes, it's in the spotlight. This is a high profile case, of course. And for many years to come, Freddie Gray's plight will still remain a symbol for this city, whether it be the way in which this city handled it, it symbolizes the Baltimore Police Department, there are so many ways in which it leaves a very big impact. MURPHY: Well, I want his legacy to be that we saw the problem. We

approached it as a total community. We know the evils that we have to stop, and we stopped them. We did it by rational legislation. We did it by rational changes of policy aimed at getting different results from the community. And we can walk away saying that he didn't die in vain. That's the objective.

WHITFIELD: All right, Billy Murphy, thank you so much. Thanks for coming by. Appreciate it.

MURPHY: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Appreciate it.

MURPHY: Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

WHITFIELD: Thank you. It's a pleasure.

All right, we'll have much more from the interfaith rally that's just now under way here at the plaza at city hall in Baltimore.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Welcome back. Live in Baltimore.

[15:25:00] You're hearing some music behind me as they sing there in this interfaith rally.

In the meantime, there are a lot of people contributing to the conversation about Baltimore's challenges, including an actress who is probably best known for her role as Detective Kima Greggs on the TV show "The Wire."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SONJA SOHN, ACTRESS, as DETECTIVE KIMA GREGGS, "THE WIRE": Slug from autopsy matches two more I pulled from that smoke-down's backyard.

Welcome to the sad alley (ph) from (inaudible) hell.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A guy's dead from a stray.

SOHN as DETECTIVE KIMA GREGGS: Because he was shooting at 40s in Clorox bottles blocks away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So, when filming the show and when it ended in Baltimore, actress Sonja Sohn kept her heart in this city. The issues the show tackled and the reality that she saw on the streets inspired her to actually start an outreach program for at-risk youth called "Rewired for Change."

Actress Sonja Sohn joins me now live from Los Angeles.

Glad you could be with us. Sorry you're not here in Baltimore, because you could really show us around.

SOHN: I'm sorry I can't be there, too, to celebrate with the people and to get them ready for the long road ahead.

WHITFIELD: And, in fact, that is the word many people are using here, that it's a celebration of the life of this 25-year-old, Freddie Gray. At the same time, a celebration that the wheels are in motion toward justice after six police officers were charged.

Your experience here in Baltimore, how eye-opening was it for you in terms of yes, you were acting, you were doing a show that very much represented reality here in Baltimore, but how much of real Baltimore or perhaps more particularly west Baltimore life were you exposed to?

SOHN: I was face-to-face with it. You know, as, you know, you can read in my New York Times op-ed today, you'll get a glimpse how close I was to it and the cast was to it. We shot in the middle of the McCulloh Homes, which is right there in west Baltimore and all over those -- the streets of that neighborhood.

And it was incredibly painful for many of the cast, not just simply myself, to see, you know, the level of, I would say, you know, I could say apathy, and I have to say apathy and despair, you know, really.

But, you know, while at the same time, seeing the day-to-day life in west Baltimore, you know, people caring for their communities and their children, but in the -- in the midst of urban blight and neglect. That was really, really painful for us.

WHITFIELD: Yeah, and when you say "apathy," you have expressed that you have felt and your experience with the leadership is toxic, but at the same time, this is a place, despite all the hardships, where you also learned hope. What do you mean by all of that?

SOHN: Well, I believe in the people of Baltimore. When I was working on the ground with the people of Baltimore, including homeless men, single working mothers, who wanted to improve their communities. When they were given the chance, with a very small budget of $250, what they could do to improve their communities was astounding.

And the fact that, you know -- you know, I feel that city leadership has not provided the kinds of resources to those communities that would allow them to take charge of their own communities so that they could improve their communities, you know, is a part of the problem. You know, in addition to, of course, you know, the unemployment and the incarceration rate and the brutality of the police force.

WHITFIELD: All right. Actress and activist Sonja Sohn in Los Angeles, very powerful words in the New York Times, and of course your work over the years has been very powerful as well. Thanks so much.

SOHN: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: And we'll be right back from Baltimore after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [15:32:27] WHITFIELD: Hello, again, everyone. And thanks so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield reporting live in Baltimore. And in the background, you can hear the singing. It's almost like going to church here right outside City Hall, because there is an interfaith rally taking place right now.

So that citywide curfew in Baltimore has been lifted. And as a result, Maryland's governor has started the process of pulling national guard troops out of Baltimore. And moments ago, I spoke with Maryland State Senator Catherine Pugh, who reported back to us and let us know that she has seen that Pennsylvania troops have been removed from their posts and are on their way back home.

All of this coming as a faith-based rally has just gotten under way right here at City Hall Plaza. Quite the contrast from yesterday where there was a jubilant, kind of celebratory environment here, right here at the plaza outside City Hall. You had a D.J. playing music. You had thousands of people who had converged with their children, people of all walks holding signs in solidarity for Freddie Gray.

And today, they are also hear in solidarity. They are here by the dozens. But of course, this is a more spiritual tone today on this Sunday.

Nick Valencia is in the crowd. Nick, what are people saying to you?

VALENCIA: Well, certainly a spiritual tone here. You can hear the hymns happening behind me. A very peaceful crowd has shown up here. Eddie is one of them. Eddie, what happens after the cameras leave? What happens when the media is all out of here?

EDDIE, RESIDENT: I believe agreement is the key to unlocking the power of the people. After the cameras leave, we're going to have to have an organized leadership, organized leadership in that faith-based community. I'm speaking from the Christian perspective.

Honestly, there may not be a lot of people sticking together. However, those who do stick together, if they lie in agreement and keep Jesus at the center, I believe we have a powerful movement. The movement won't be static.

VALENCIA: Thank you, Eddie, for sharing your words with CNN. If you just want to walk with me through the crowd here, you'll see, you know, all walks of life represented.

How are you, sir?

MALE: Hi. How are you?

VALENCIA: Good to see you. All walks of life here, represented, both young and old people that are residents here -- long-time residents of Baltimore, members of intercoalition of faith groups. And if you want to take a look at that stage, you see a very powerful message happens right now on what is turning out to be just a gorgeous Sunday in the city of Baltimore, Fredricka. [15:35:03] WHITFIELD: And so Nick, I know there are no real

expectations of how many people will turn out. But we saw people starting to trickle in around 2:30. This has been scheduled to start at 3 o'clock. And I look around and I still see large groups starting to come in.

Have there been any expressed expectations of crowd sizes? We heard yesterday's turnout there were at least 1,000 people here, by some estimations, right here at the plaza.

Well, it is a noticeably thinner crowd here. A lot of the demonstrations that we saw yesterday. It's not quite that size of the crowd. And then also it's a different message. There were a lot of aggressive undertones, some would say, in some of the speakers that spoke yesterday at Saturday's rally. There were different messages. But this really is focused on faith.

It's focused on trying to build communities together, continue that conversation of healing. We've spoken to people from the law enforcement community who came out here to show their support. People from all walks of life and faiths. And I think that's the crowd that you're seeing here today. It is, we should say, not the size of the crowd that we saw yesterday, but certainly hundreds have turned out here on the lawn of City Hall steps.

WHITFIELD: All right. Nick Valencia, thank so much. Appreciate it. Check back with you.

All right. More live coverage from Baltimore after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:45:21] ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: If you're sinking in medical debt, you are not alone. One in three Americans has difficulty paying medical bills. In fact, medical debt is one of the leading causes of bankruptcy filings. Well, there's a new study out that says the medical debt isn't just bad for your wallet, it's bad for your health.

What the study found is that 60 percent of the time when people are in medical debt, they skip getting medical care which, of course, can be very dangerous. Forty percent skip getting prescription drugs.

Now don't despair, if your medical bills are piling up. We have some tips to help you. First and most importantly, ask the doctor or the hospital you owe money to to negotiate a payment plan. Many times they're happy to do so.

Also be careful about paying off those bills with credit cards. if you are not going to pay right away, you can face steep fees. Also ask a pharmacist for help. Pharmacists know that sometimes doctors, without realizing it, prescribe expensive drugs when there are less expensive drugs that would work just as well. So ask your pharmacist if there are alternatives for what you're taking. Now if there aren't and you have to take an expensive drug, look online for a prescription assistance plan. WHITFIELD: Well, welcome back. I'm Fredricka Whitfield live in

Baltimore. The Baltimore police officers involved with Freddie Gray's arrest are facing serious charges. But the family of Eric Garner, the New York man who died after being put in a police choke hold say they never got justice.

CNN's Sara Ganim compares the two cases.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): The arrest of six Baltimore police officers in Freddie Gray's death has renewed calls for justice for Eric Garner, the 43-year-old father who died after being placed in an apparent choke hold by an NYPD officer last year.

ERIC GARNER, KILLED BY CHOKEHOLD: I can't breathe. I can't breathe.

GANIM: Garner repeated the phrase 11 times during his arrest. Now we learned that the 25-year-old Gray also indicated to police officers that he, too, could not breathe. Esaw Garner spoke about the similarities between her husband's last moments and Grays.

ESAW GARNER, WIDOW OF ERIC GARNER: The same way the man was screaming for medical attention and they refused to get it or delayed getting it was the same way that my husband was screaming, "I can't breathe" and they did not let the EMS workers do what they needed to do for my husband to survive that incident.

GANIM: The grand jury's decision not to indict the officers involved sparked huge demonstrations in New York and reignited a national conversation on police brutality that continues. In both cases, paramedics were called too late, but Law Enforcement Analyst and former FBI Assistant Director Tom Fuentes says it's hard to criticize officers for not immediately calling for help.

FUENTES: Well, the problem is -- and having made many, many arrests when I was a street cop myself, before joining the FBI -- is that that's kind of common that you hear people being arrested, that are resisting in any way, say they can't breathe or they can't walk or, you know, claiming ailments that they don't really have.

GANIM: In Garner's case, the Department of Justice is currently investigating civil rights violations. His family called for justice in a press conference on Saturday.

FEMALE: People in Baltimore, South Carolina, their prosecutor, they did the right thing. And that's what we need. We need someone to step up and do the right thing.

ESAW GARNER: So it's been ten months and there has been nothing done to these police officers in regards to Eric Garner. And I'm happy for the other families that they are getting justice, but we need justice here in New York for Eric Garner.

GANIM: But the difference between the two cases make it hard to draw comparisons. FUENTES: Well, in the Garner case, Garner is resisting a lawful

arrest. If he would have complied, he'd still be alive today and bad things wouldn't have happened from the wrestling match they they end up having on the sidewalk.

In the Gray case, it turns out that even the arrest itself was completely unlawful and then everything bad happens to him afterward. But he shouldn't have been in police custody for anything else bad to half.

GANIM: Regardless of the outcome of Garner's case, protesters here believe his death added to the national conversation of police brutality, even though justice for Freddie Gray may not mean justice for Eric Garner.

Sara Ganim, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right. Let's talk more about these comparisons. Legal analyst Joey Jackson and Danny Cevallos are with me here. So in your eyes, Joey, you first.

[15:45:00] Are there parallels? Why charges in one case and not the other?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, there certainly are parallels. Why? Because, a, you see a group of officers who are pursuing -- in Eric Garner's case him -- and he ends up dead. And in this case, the Freddie Gray case, people -- officers pursue him, he's dead. You have both asking for medical assistance -- not provided -- and both are dead.

I think that, you know, there's a difference in political environments. Remember, I'm from New York. Eric Garner occurred in Staten Island. It was presented to a Staten Island grand jury and they opted not to indict. Obviously, the Federal Government, there's certainly remedies there.

WHITFIELD: So there is no option similar to this city where the state's attorney can make recommendations for charges, then a grand jury can indict? You're saying in New York, it's straight to a grand jury, so there is no intermediary?

There are legal complexities, Fredricka. But the reality is is that the local district attorney -- in this case, the Staten Island District Attorney -- made the decision to present the case to the grand jury which is how we do things in New York. And the manner in which a prosecutor presents the case has a lot to do with it.

I say that as a former prosecutor who has presented cases to the grand jury and as a defense attorney who has been in the grand jury for various cases. But unfortunately, for whatever reasons, which outraged the community in New York and across the country, he wasn't indicted. And now you're looking at potentially a federal remedy for the Federal Government to step in and say, you know what, this was a willful -- which is the standard -- deprivation of his civil rights.

Will they do that? remains to be seen.

WHITFIELD: Danny.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: This case is about two different tiers of police citizen encounters. And we're going to be really scrutinizing them. And we should really separate them. One is the initial encounter, that minimal amount of suspicion to make initial contact with a citizen and investigate them. The second one is much higher.

WHITFIELD: Freddie Gray.

CEVALLOS: Yeah, Freddie Gray. And similar with Eric Garner. The second is probable cause to make an arrest, which is a much higher quantum of evidence. One difference that jumps out right away in the Garner case is that police had some belief he was selling loose cigarettes.

Now you and I may say, well, that wasn't enough. But the amount needed to stop and question is so little that police probably got to questioning Garner in a way that -- with Freddie Gray we know from the charging instrument, that the only reason defendant fled unprovoked, upon approach, while that may be constitutional, it is the bare minimum of permissible information before you can make an initial stop.

JACKSON: Here's the bigger problem, though. Regardless of whether there's reasonable suspicion, do you have a basis, do you have credible information, do you not, the issue is how do you handle and how do you deal with members who are civilians when you're in the police department. Whether you have probable cause or not is another issue.

WHITFIELD: Because it would seem -- and it would seem when weighing the alleged offense, that would dictate the approach that a police officer might have for either one of these young men. And if we are talking about in the case of either one of these young men, the probable cause is suspicion, the alleged crime. And come to find out, with Freddie Gray, there was no crime. It was very minimal to have such a forceful type of takedown.

JACKSON: Therein lies the problem.

CEVALLOS: And that's the problem.

WHITFIELD: And that's what's common in some of these cases.

JACKSON: If you have a weapon, if you're -- you know, if you have a weapon, if you're struggling, if you're fighting, if there's something on you, obviously, the police's dander is up and requires force that could be excessive.

But when -- in any instance, when you have someone. WHITFIELD: We heard from one of our former LAPD cops yesterday. She

says, "contempt of cop." It's almost like payback. A police officer, you know getting back or the takedown becomes much more aggressive as a lesson to that person. I don't really want to say suspect, because they may not be a suspect, they are just someone that they may encounter.

CEVALLOS: You know, we talk about excessive force. But we need to have a discussion about the other end of that line, which is what constitutes a good reason to stop a citizen? Because all these excessive force cases began with some form of initial contact. And that may be the broader issue here, maybe arguably more than excessive force is what are we telling or training our police officers is a qualified reason to make that initial stop and detain another citizen?

JACKSON: One other thing, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: So is the door closed for the Eric Garner case, but you did mention that there could be a Justice Department involvement there. But...

JACKSON: Right. It's not closed. A potentially Justice Department does do something. I think a representation of the case for the grand jury is unlikely.

But just very briefly, Fredricka, when you're dealing with people on the streets -- and officers have a difficult job, we know that, we respect that, we get that. There has to be use of force continuum. Do you use interpersonal skills? Stop. Do you escalate it, perhaps, with pepper spray. Do you escalate it them to a baton? Do you use a tazer? Then do you use ...

WHITFIELD: And that where training in government comes in.

JACKSON: ... -- exactly. Do you use a weapon.

WHITFIELD: All right.

JACKSON: And so, discretion is so important when you're policing civilians in the community.

CEVALLOS: Yeah. We'll leave it there. Joey Jackson, Danny Cevallos, thanks so much. I appreciate it. We'll have much more right after this.

[15:49:36]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD MOSSE, PHOTOGRAPHER: In 2009, Kodak announced the discontinuation of a film that they make called Aerocrob. The film itself was invented in World War II in collaboration with the U.S. military who designed it originally for camouflage detection. So they're trying to reveal the enemy hidden in the landscape. And I bought as much as I could. And then I said to myself, where

would I take it? Where does this need to be taken? In what way can this film tell the story better than any other film? And I discovered that, really, there's an ongoing civil war situation in Eastern Congo, Democratic Republic of Congo, which doesn't really get much press. It's very inaccessible. It takes six days to get in and get out; for me it takes months and months and months of footwork. You have to choreograph this whole thing and then you have to get the right camera into that situation, and then you have to wait the right light, and then have to hope that your subject doesn't disappear into the jungle.

The work from Congo has been exhibited widely internationally. (INAUDIBLE) it represented Ireland, my home country, which was a great honor. And then after that the exhibition, the enclave was shown all over the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And we'll head back to our live coverage in Baltimore in just a few minutes. But first, some news out of Israel.

[15:55:00] Peaceful protests have turned violent on the streets of Tel Aviv, this after a video surfaced showing a police officer striking an Ethiopian-Israeli soldier. Police say 20 officers have been injured and one protester arrested.

Joining me live now on the phone from Tel Aviv, CNN's Oren Liebermann. Oren, tell us what happened.

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN REPORTER: It started as a peaceful protest. About seven hours ago in central Tel Aviv, a group of 500 or 600 protesters blocked off traffic and it remained for the next few hours a peaceful protest. Police let them blocked off traffic, tried not to interfere, and protesters held themselves back from confronting police and then it deteriorated very rapid over the last few hours as protesters moved down the road.

They headed for Rabin Square, which is central Tel Aviv, Tel Aviv's central square, which makes it one of the more prevalent squares, one of the more prevalent places to put on a demonstration in Israel. And that's where these became violent clashes. From what we've seen, protesters have destroyed windows of cars, destroyed the cars themselves and it has become violent.

We've seen a number of injuries. The latest number I have is that at least 20 police are injured. At least one person arrested. But we're are getting more information this is a very fluid situation. Police still do not have this under control. There are hundreds of protesters left and we will keep you updated.

HARLOW: And we'll continue to follow that story out of Tel Aviv. Oren Lieberman thanks so much. We have much more ahead in the NEWSROOM, including live coverage of the big rally in Baltimore and it all starts right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)