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Awaiting News Conference Out Of Garland, Texas; Discussion About Pamela Geller; Royal Baby Named Charlotte Elizabeth Diana; Are Rash Of Recent Police Shootings Rooted In Race? Aired 10-10:30a ET.
Aired May 04, 2015 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:00:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. We are awaiting a news conference to begin in less than an hour from Garland, Texas. That's where police and the FBI are expected to release new information on that shooting outside a Mohammed cartoon contest. Just a short time ago, law enforcement source confirming to CNN one of the names of the gunman. He's Elton Simpson from Phoenix. It's believed Simpson sent a tweet prior to the attack signing responsibility reading in part, "May Allah accept us as mujahideen."
Now, this man is no stranger to the FBI. In March of 2011, Simpson was found guilty of lying to agents about discussing travel to Somalia for the purpose of engaging in "violent jihad." Court record show Simpson was put on probation for three years. And just a short time ago in Phoenix, the FBI began searching the apartment he shared with the other gunman.
Now, let me catch you up on what police say happened in that Dallas suburb of Garland last night. Officers say Simpson and his roommate drove up to the Curtis Culwell Center, jumped out of their car and just began shooting. They hit an unarmed security guard before being shot and killed by police. Inside the building, hundreds were attending a Mohammad art exhibit and cartoon contest being held by the American Freedom Defense Initiative.
I want to bring in correspondent Rosa Flores. Now, she's been delving into the past of these gunmen. What more have you found out?
ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, we actually found the court documents of those prior terrorism related arrests, and so, that's what we have. And let me just break this down for you because - so, this came down out of Arizona in of U.S. District Court in 2010 and the actually charge is false statement which in that state is a class D felony and as you said, the judgment is three years' probation.
But here is what the - what the statement says, and this is from the court documents. And it says the defendant falsely stated to special agents of the FBI that he had not discussed traveling to Somalia when in fact the defendant had discussed with others on or about May 29, 2009, and thereafter traveling to Somalia for the purpose of engaging in "violent jihad".
Now, we know that the FBI is investigating, that Phoenix P.D. is also investigated and we also know that the FBI had been monitoring this individual, Elton Simpson, for a while now and we have that tweet which I want to read that to you because it's very very telling. We've also been trying to translate that tweet to make sure that we know exactly what this means.
So, here's the tweet, "The bro with me and myself have given bay-ah to Amirul Mu'mineen." Now, this is what that actually mean, so the bro with me and myself have given pledge of allegiance to the commander of the faithful. "May Allah accept us as mujahideen."
Now, as we mentioned, we don't know the motive behind this. We don't know the religion of this man. We don't know a lot of different things, Carol, but we do know is that the FBI is at that Phoenix apartment scouring through evidence, trying to figure out exactly what makes sense and what doesn't and trying to gather that evidence, take it back and piece the puzzle.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Do we know how the men got to Garland, Texas?
FLORES: You know, we don't. And it's specifically unclear, you know, why they were paying attention to that. But, you know, now we know that they did and we know what transpired after. So now it's about putting the pieces together as to how we got here, Carol.
COSTELLO: OK. So, I'll let you go dig some more, you're throwing up some good stuff. Rosa Flores, thanks so much. The keynote speaker at that conference is considered such an enemy of Islam that al Qaeda has placed him on their hit list. Geert Wilders is a right-wing Dutch politician who has railed against Islam, its followers, even its holy book. He compares the Koran to Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf. He actually wants to ban the Koran. Listen to what he had to say before last night's gathering.
GEERT WILDERS, DUTCH POLITICIAN: It is no coincidence that we are in Garland, Texas, tonight. It is here that three months ago shortly after the Charlie Hebdo massacre, Islamic activists convened to demand that free speech be curtailed. They want to prohibit cartoons, books and films which they found insulting. And our answer is don't mess with Texas.
(APPLAUSE)
COSTELLO: And this morning we also heard from the organizer of the event. She said Islamic Jihadists try to repress freedom of speech in Paris and Copenhagen and now they have turned their sights on U.S. soil.
[10:05:00] PAMELA GELLER, ORGANIZER OF MOHAMMED CARTOON CONTEST: The fact is that we need to have this discussion. Alisyn, there's a problem in Islam. The problem is we can't talk about the problem. We are seeing the wholesale slaughter of Christians in Iraq and in Syria. In Nigeria, in the Congo, Central African Republic, the Jihad is raging and all we can talk about is backlash of phobia. It's nonsense. We have to be able to discuss and - when you say it's anti-Muslim,
excuse me. I'm anti-Jihad. And anyone that says that I'm anti-Muslim is implying that all Muslims support Jihad.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, sure but in --
(CROSSTALK)
GELLER: That sounds Islamophobic to me.
CAMEROTA: There were scores of Muslim leaders who supported your right to have this event, they didn't like it but they supported your right to freedom of speech. Let me read you a quote from one of them, this was a New York City Muslim community leader. She says, "Pamela Geller can draw any damn cartoon she wants and I defend her right to do so. I have always fought for her right to be a bigot and I have the right to counter her bigots through with my own free speech." I mean, this is a Muslim leader saying that you have the right to have an event like that. But again, I mean, the point is that --
GELLER: Yes. This is a Muslim leader who is - this is a Muslim leader who is attacking me and insulting me and (having him attacks), isn't that generous of her? Look, she's not the problem, OK? The problem is that a group, and we don't know how many others were involved, attempted to open fire on a gathering of free speech. That's the problem, Alisyn. You are bringing it up with these silly - these silly distractions. No one is saying that there aren't peaceful Muslims. But there are - there is a problem in Islam as illustrated last night and anyone that addresses it gets attacked.
COSTELLO: OK. So let's talk more about those comments with Dean Obeidallah, he's a columnist for The Daily Beast. Good morning, Dean. Thank you for coming in as well.
DEAN OBEIDALLAH, THE DAILY BEAST COLUMNIST: Good morning, Carol. Sure, thanks for having me.
COSTELLO: Is Ms. Geller right? This just proves there's a segment of the population in the United States who are radical Islamists and are intent to harm?
OBEIDALLAH: I think that having Pamela Geller talk to us about Islam is like Mel Gibson talk to you by Judaism. She has no credibility in this, she has a record of demonizing Muslims to the point where the AVL has criticized her for extremist vilification of Muslims. Certain probably lost in her as demonizer. In America, you can --
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: She would say, "So what? It's a free country. I can say whatever I want."
OBEIDALLAH: And she can, and I defend her right. I wrote an article for Daily Beast interviewing some Muslim ladies. We all universally defend her right to draw the prophet Mohammed, do whatever she wants. She can taunt us. That's her goal. Her dream is to get press. That's what she's about.
And to be honest, in our community, she's not an unknown commodity. She's been attacking since 2010 and is now a punch line to our community. Not one Muslim went to protest this event because Muslim leaders like Alia Salem, who I interviewed from CAIR in Dallas, said, "Ignore her. Don't give her what she wants."
Unfortunately, these one to two men involved in what appears to be some kind of terror attack didn't - have their own agenda and unfortunately committed some attack. And I'm glad everyone was safe in the place. That they got to have their event. No one interrupted it. (Inaudible) You have your right to freedom. As a Muslim, I defend your right to demonize even my group, that's what the country is about. But I have the right to counter it with our own words, and that's what we're about.
COSTELLO: But to see what happened, the shooting that went down in Garland, Texas, will make some believe whatever Pamela Geller says is true about the Muslim community.
OBEIDALLAH: Unfortunately, it will for some. And I hope for those people they will not define Islam by the actions of a small group. I mean, even ISIS is about 30,000 fighters. We're talking 0.02 percent of all Muslims. Yet, they are ones that define Islam in the mind of many Americans.
We're a small group. We're about 1 to 2 percent of the country Muslims, most people don't have a Muslim friend. I tell people I'll be your Muslim friend if you don't have one. Because we need this human counter narrative to make people understand that I'm not the exception. Linda Sarsour, is not the exception. The good Muslims are not the exception, we are mainstream Muslims.
The exceptions are the guy with the gun that went to Garland. The people in ISIS who have an agenda that has nothing to do with our faith but has to do with usually power, a political agenda or perhaps mental illness. We don't know enough about the men - so far, the two people that have been shot.
COSTELLO: OK. So, I feel like we have to talk about this because I believe in free speech passionately.
OBEIDALLAH: She can say what she wants.
COSTELLO: She can say - right, she can say whatever she wants.
OBEIDALLAH: Right.
COSTELLO: But there's a responsibility that also comes with that. And if this contest was set up to deliberately taunt or provoke, is that responsible?
[10:10:00] OBEIDALLAH: I think that's a much harder question. I mean, I'm a former lawyer. I understand the first amendment. I defend it absolutely. I think we have the right to have freedom of speech. There are lines though. If you intentional try to incite hatred, there are limits on that.
In this case, drawing the prophet Mohammed, I think it's offensive absolutely. Is it responsible enough? That's up to you. Her goal was to get a reaction. She craves media attention, that's what she lives by. So, you know, it's going to be for each person to decide whether it's appropriate of not. The reaction of violence, absolutely unequivocally, that's the wrong response.
Words, we have - Muslim groups, like Muslimdraw.net that I wrote about, that a comedic draw your friend Mohammed cartoon hash tag thing so that sort of countering her by saying, "Let's have fun with this. Let's make fun of Pamela Geller. Let's show people how ridiculous she is." And that was a great way to responded, that's how we responded. We responded through words, through humor, through intellect. We're not demonizing anybody in response.
She's spent $100,000 on campaign ads in New York to demonize Muslims. How much do you have to hate Muslims, a minority group, to demonize to spending $100,000. That's what we're up against.
COSTELLO: All right. Dean Obeidallah, thank you for your insight as usual. I always appreciate it.
OBEIDALLAH: Thanks, Carol. I appreciate it, thank you.
COSTELLO: I'm a little discombobulated because I know this is not the most important thing. I know it's not, but we need some light in this dark tunnel. The royal baby has a name. Max Foster is here to spill it. Hi, Max.
MAX FOSTER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi. Yes, we have the name. Much waiting, much anticipation here in the U.K. A huge amount of betting and finally the name came through. It just came through a couple minutes ago. So, the little princess, she's going to be called Charlotte. Her middle names are Elizabeth and Diana.
So many people wanted to see both those names, Elizabeth and Diana, in there. Of course, Elizabeth, the name of the current queen. Diana, the name of William's beloved mother. But Charlotte is going to the name and her title will be Her Royal Highness Princess Charlotte of Cambridge. So, little Charlotte will be heading off to the (Norfolk) countryside home, I'm sure very soon. That was the plan. And we're not going to see her for some time. So, these little pictures we got from Saturday, alas, we're going to see her for some time, but it was a big occasion here and people around the world as you say welcome this little bit of positive news.
COSTELLO: I know. It's such a beautiful baby. And you know, I love my Kate Middleton. I love her. Max Foster, thanks for bringing in smiles to our faces this morning. I appreciate it. We'll be right back.
[10:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COSTELLO: All right. You're looking at a live shot from Garland, Texas. At any moment now, the police public information officer, Joe Harn, will step behind those microphones to give us an update on their investigation. Of course, I'm talking about that shooting of a security guard in Texas at a draw Mohammed cartoon contest.
The security guard is doing OK. He was shot in the ankle. But the two men allegedly responsible for this, Elton Simpson and his roommate, are dead, he was shot dead by police. Again, when the public information officer, Joe Harn, appears before that - in front of those microphones, we'll take you back to Garland, Texas.
In other news, after a week of protests, Baltimore is inching toward normalcy this morning. Things staying quiet overnight after the city lifted its curfew. The National Guard began to pull out. Sometime tomorrow the withdrawal of about 3,000 troops will be complete and the state of emergency can be lifted.
Now, police say they arrested 486 people over the course of the protests, 113 police officers were injured but of course the officers drawing the most attention, those six officers charged in the death of Freddie Gray, the 25 year old who suffered a gruesome spinal cord injury while in police custody.
When those charges were announced in against police in Friday's bombshell news conference, our next guest had a remarkable vantage point. Days earlier, police have given Baltimore Sun reporter, Justin George, exclusive access to the investigation. Justin is joining us now by phone. Good morning, Justin.
JUSTIN GEORGE, BALTIMORE SUN REPORTER: Good morning.
COSTELLO: Good morning. So you're standing with a group of officers who are doing their best to investigate how Freddie Gray died. And the announcement from the state's attorney came out. What was their reaction?
GEORGE: They were certainly stunned. They were very surprised because only the day before they had turned over their investigative file to the state's attorney's office and then just in a matter of hours, you know, she announced that there were charges. They certainly did not expect her to act with such suddenness.
COSTELLO: And just take us through how that investigation was progressing. They went to great lengths to try to find out what happened.
GEORGE: They did. I think police had zeroed in that the injury, the catastrophic injury as they turned it to Freddie Gray had occurred in the police wagon. However, they hadn't ruled out every single other possibility and on Thursday they were actually testing some of the leg braces that Freddie Gray had been put in to see if putting pressure on those leg braces could have caused the spinal injury and other injuries that resulted in his death.
COSTELLO: And they spent a lot of money on special equipment to be brought in? Tell us about that.
GEORGE: They did. They - you know, I don't know if they had it beforehand but it's a fairly new, you know, $250,000 3D imaging scanner from Leica. And what it does is it takes a 360-degree scan of streets and it can reach as far as about 850 feet and it can go down to the terrain of the road and look at even the potholes as well as the sort of other alleyways. And what they were going to do is - and they were in the process of doing, was stitching together 70 different of these scans and pretty much could create a very large and detailed map of west Baltimore. This is like a Google street view map in three dimensions.
COSTELLO: So, how many detectives are involved in the investigation?
GEORGE: There were - there were more than 30 involved on the task force. And, you know, you go into the conference briefings and some days they would swell to like 40 and then some days, you know, there might be 20 because the others were already on assignments and were working.
But they came from all different parts of the department. They pulled people from the crime lab. They got people from homicide detectives who are working the case. They had a lot of different experts and people with different expertise including the automobile crash team which can look at (it can see auto or) accidents that occur and how people get hurt that way.
COSTELLO: So I can hear some people in the community saying right now, "Come on, this can't be a fair investigation. You can't have police investigating police."
GEORGE: You know, absolutely. And I think police thought that as well, which is why they granted us access. They realized that, you know, they had some work to do to regain any credibility and they believed that, you know, believed in their investigation. They wanted it to be so objective that that was one reason we pushed to get in there and they allowed it in order for us to sort of monitor what they were doing. And then definitely I learned a lot by doing that.
[10:20:00] COSTELLO: And my final question to you, when that announcement was made by the state's attorney, I know that she didn't take into account their investigation. She took into account the sheriff's investigation. But these Baltimore police officers, did they think charges were necessary or they couldn't draw any conclusion to their investigation so far?
GEORGE: You know, like I said, during all the - or like I wrote in my story, during all the briefings, I never saw them discuss any specific charges. However, they were certainly zeroing in on Caesar Goodson, the wagon driver, and they were talking about the other officers. You know, to every detective that I spoke with, you know, they considered themselves fact finders and that they were unburdened from any sort of making a decision about their colleagues because they realized they wouldn't have to and it was the state attorney's job.
They felt that they were just gathering every little piece of evidence and we just set up a foot here and they wanted that to be as transparent as possible. They were definitely going to great lengths in order to show the public or at least to try to show the public that they were going to investigate this case as intensely as possible.
COSTELLO: Justin George for the Baltimore Sun, thanks so much for being - for being with me. I appreciate it. Still to come in the Newsroom is poverty and not race, a bigger factor in the unrest in Baltimore? We'll talk about that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:25:00] COSTELLO: A string of African-American men dying at the hands of police has ignited nationwide protests and calls to action but the problem is complicated. In Ferguson, Missouri, for example, critics put some of the blame for Michael Brown's death in the lack of diversity in the government and in the police department.
But in Baltimore, some of the officers facing charges for the death of Freddie Gray are African-American. The city has a black mayor, a black police commissioner and a majority of black city council. So, many are asking whether race really has anything to do with Freddie Gray's death. I want to talk about that this morning.
CNN political commentator Tara Setmayer and Marc Lamont Hill, join me now for more. Good morning, I appreciate your being here. So, Tara, is Freddie Gray's death about race?
TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I would have to say absolutely not in this case. I mean, you - look, you just gave the statistics. Breakdown of the government, the dynamic in Baltimore is very different than it was in Ferguson. And I think that to try to inject race into this is folly. I mean, you - as far as the motivation behind whatever happened, that it was, you know, there's racial disparities and - you can't say that about Baltimore. And I think in a case like this, you have negligence and there's problems, problems within the police department. But in this case, negligence comes in all shapes and colors --
(CROSSTALK)
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm not following you. Just trying to see your logic, if these officers have been all white, would it be reasonable to say that race was involved?
SETMAYER: I - apart from me, I'm not quick to throw the race card like most people. But I think that people would try to insert that narrative and to there are race --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: All right. So - so - so in your case --
SETMAYER: -- that everything is about race. And in this case --
(CROSSTALK) HILL: So, in your case, race is not an issue irrespective of the race of the officers. So, it's not the race of the officers that are making it not about race, you just don't think race is the issue. My --
(CROSSTALK)
SETMAYER: In this case, no I don't think that race --
HILL: OK. So, here's my concern, one, the issue of race isn't exclusive to white people. White people do have a race, but so do black people. If Black people went on a killing spree and said, "I'm only going to kill black people," that would be a racially motivated killing. Just because the officers are black doesn't make it not racial.
And the fact to the matter is, black people die every day at the hands of law enforcement. It doesn't matter what color the officer is. The only color that matters in the officer's side is blue. We see consistent death --
COSTELLO: There would be some who argue that there are white suspects who die at the hands of police as well.
HILL: Absolutely. Again, state violence against citizens is a problem. State violence against poor people is a problem. State --
COSTELLO: But is that too about race? I think that people are really --
(CROSSTALK)
SETMAYER: -- different issue here.
HILL: But it's - no, but it's disproportionate, right? When you look at the number of black people who die at the hands of law enforcement in proportion to their demographic representation, we want to make of 13 percent of the - of the nation's population, we're overrepresented in police killing. That's not coincidence.
COSTELLO: But African-Americans are also overrepresented in poor neighborhoods, right?
HILL: That's absolutely --
(CROSSTALK)
SETMAYER: There's commonality --
COSTELLO: That matters in this case.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: So let's control for poverty. Let's control for all of that, right? If you walk into a middle class neighborhood, black middle class, people more likely to get shot by law enforcement and the white middle class counterparts, wealthy black people are more likely to get shot than the white middle - than their - than their wealthy white counterparts. I mean, race is an issue even when you control for a class. And that one last thing I'm going to go to.
COSTELLO: That's OK, go ahead.
HILL: There's a study - there's a study at Stanford that shows a pretty convincing and compelling study that shows that black teenagers are seen as more guilty than they are - more guilty than the white counterparts and older than white counterparts. So even when you control for race of the officer, they are still viewed as more guilty.
SETMAYER: OK. But that, we're talking about - that's a criminal justice issue and I think that's one that we should definitely have a conversation about. There's clearly a problem. But in this, what's going on and what's happening now, I think we're focusing entirely too much on race and on the - on the - putting onus on the police where are should there be changes? Should there be reforms? I think there is that definitely an argument to be made if there needs to be some changes in policing and things like that. But we cannot leave out the criminality aspect of this culture. You know, 50 years of failed policies in these communities --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: What was the criminality in this case? What did Freddie Gray do that was criminal?
SETMAYER: We don't know yet.
HILL: Yes, we do. He didn't do anything.
COSTELLO: We actually do know that. He was not wanted for anything.
SETMAYER: No.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Even the police themselves don't say (he didn't do criminal.)
SETMAYER: Well, they're saying that it was an illegal arrest. OK. That's why we're having a trial. But we're having --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: But you were - you said - you're raising issue of criminality. You're throwing criminality out there.
SETMAYER: Why?
HILL: It's a (red-here). There is no criminality here.
SETMAYER: In this specific case, no.
HILL: Thank you. SETMAYER: But this case is bringing up bigger issues about what's
going to in Baltimore. We know, but the premise of this conversation was is it racially motivated? Was there race involved? And it --
HILL: Yes, this case.
SETMAYER: Right, but what's happening in - but this case is bringing up a larger issue, peeling back layers of problems in cities like Baltimore. That's going on in --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: But let's get the layers back (follow), is this case racial?
SETMAYER: No, this case is not racial, Marc. You don't have to put - you don't have to put a race card on every single thing. So, we're going to have the same conversation --
HILL: Why are you convinced that this isn't racial?
SETMAYER: Because it's not a racial incident. This whole --
HILL: You're convinced it's not a racial issue because it's not a racial issue?
SETMAYER: That's correct. No, I'm convinced it's not a racial issue because you have a majority of black police department, police commissioner, black mayor, black prosecutor and this --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: So, you're saying it can't be racial if black people are involved?
SETMAYER: I mean, I think that's pushing it in a case like this. I don't think racial is --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Your defense of it - your defense of this not being a race issue --
SETMAYER: -- you can't put a race card on everything. I mean, come on, Marc.
HILL: -- is that there are black people involved.
SETMAYER: Right.
HILL: By that logic, nothing is racial if black people are involved. But --
SETMAYER: I mean, it's tougher to make the argument that --
(CROSSTALK) HILL: Why? Why is it tougher to make an argument that - why is it tougher to make an argument that it's racial if black people are involved?
SETMAYER: So, you're saying --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Are you saying that only - you're in national TV saying only white people can do - can do racial?
SETMAYER: No, but I'm saying that if we're going to have this argument and try to inject (racings) of things, that the logical conclusion is usually it's one race against the other.
HILL: No.
SETMAYER: Are there black races on black race? I guess, that you want have that kind of conversation.
[10:30:00] HILL: That's actually - that's actually - that's actually not the argument. The argument is that there is a structural problem with law enforcement.
SETMAYER: Right.
HILL: And that happens whether the officer is black or the officer is white.
SETMAYER: Right.
HILL: Black people did not march to get beaten by black officers, right?
