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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Texas Shooting; FBI Searches Terrorism Suspect Apartment; Group Defends Stance on Islam; Contest Speaker on al Qaeda "Hit List." Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired May 04, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: LEGAL VIEW with Ashleigh Banfield starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

We begin with this breaking news. The gunmen are dead, their motive is apparent, their only victim is now home from the hospital, but last night's shootout in the Dallas suburb of Garland, Texas, still very much a federal case with ISIS connections. And police and federal agents in Phoenix now joining in. They've spent hours going through this apartment shared by one of the suspects. At least one of these two suspects, a known ISIS sympathizer, convicted in 2011 of lying about his plans to take up jihad in Somalia.

The Texas attacks took place outside of a contest that was sponsored by an anti-Islam group called the American Freedom Defense Initiative. It offered $10,000 for the best cartoon depiction of the Prophet Mohammed, knowing full well that Muslims consider any depiction of the prophet blasphemous and knowing such offenses have, at times, been met with deadly violence. The "Charlie Hebdo" massacre in January in France, for instance.

Police in Garland spoke to reporters just last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE HARN, GARLAND, TEXAS, POLICE SPOKESMAN: We're certainly looking into that. We've not - we have not knocked that out. But, again, we're working with the FBI and we will eventually figure out what that is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to begin our coverage now this hour with my CNN colleagues Ed Lavandera, who joins me live on the phone from Garland, and also Rosa Flores, who is here in New York.

And, Rosa, if I can begin with you. Just the latest that we know about these two now dead gunmen.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, we know the name of one of those gunmen, Ashleigh. The authorities releasing his name. Elton Simpson is his name. Now authorities telling us that he is an ISIS sympathizer, linked to an ISIS member on social media. We've got tweets that we can share with you on that.

Now, the FBI had been keeping close tabs on Mr. Simpson and he was also found guilty in 2011 of making false statements involving international and domestic terrorism. Now I want to start with these tweets, Ashleigh, because Simpson sending out a tweet two hours before this attack and this known ISIS member actually retweeting the tweet.

So from Simpson we have a quick tweet that reads, in part, "may Allah accept this as mujahedeen." Then this ISIS known member retweets that particular tweet and then sends out another tweet. Hear this, quote, "the brothers in Texas may have had no experience in shooting, but they was quick in defending the honor of Prophet Mohammed," end quote. Again, this - this is a man that is known as an ISIS member on social media.

Now, the FBI keeping close tabs. They're already at his apartment. They are searching, scouring through the belongings, looking for evidence. And, Ashleigh, and like I said, now he was also found guilty in 2011, the charge was a false statements. That's a class d felony. And his judgment, three years' probation, paid a $500 fine. And this is an excerpt from the indictment saying that the defendant falsely stated to special agents of the FBI that he had not discussed traveling to Somalia when, in fact, the defendant had discussed with others on or about May 29, 2009, and thereafter traveling to Somalia for the purpose of engaging in violent jihad.

And, of course, Ashleigh, this is still very early in the investigation and we are digging through more of these documents to try to - to just piece this puzzle together.

BANFIELD: All right, Rosa, stand by. I want to go to Ed Lavandera.

Ed, I was just listening in alongside you as well when those police officers gave that very quick press conference in Garland, Texas, and I feel like we learned a few additional things that we might not have known before but you'll have to help me walk through this. The fact that no bombs were found in the car but they were very concerned about that car, going through the trunk meticulously to find out what everything was in that trunk, and the fact that they were also wearing some kind of body protection when they were shot dead, but that officer helming the news conference wasn't sure exactly what that was. What else did we learn?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, we did ask, you know, now that we're learning at least one of the names of the suspects, the Garland authorities say that the - without naming any names, Garland authorities say that there were no specific names or people that they were made aware of as they were preparing the security plan for this event, which they say had been put in place several months ago so that there was no direct intelligence as any specific names or these specific names that they - that they were made aware of, which I thought was worth pointing out.

[12:05:24] But they also said, as you mentioned, no explosives. You know the - the bodies of the two suspect, up until about at least - I've had to leave the scene, but up until about an hour and a half ago, the bodies of the two suspects were still lying on the street next to the car that they drove up to the civic center in, and that is because throughout the overnight hours investigators were fearful that there might have been some sort of explosive device either connected to the bodies or inside the vehicle as well, so they've gone through a long process of detonating various - detonating to make sure that there wasn't any explosive device. In the end authorities, authorities here in Garland say that there were no bombs found at the scene there.

BANFIELD: Right. I recall that, that notion that they were concerned the bodies and the car could be booby-trapped and it really sort of tied things up and made things slower in terms of just getting to the bottom of just how dangerous that scene was. But, Ed, now it looks as though the ATF, the FBI and locals are all working sort of feverishly through the forensics, but at the same time more than likely trying to find some kind of a connection to whom else might have been involved with this, other than these three - these two who almost literally died as soon as they got out of their cars.

LAVANDERA: You know, the description of how it unfolded was really powerful. We were able - you know, CNN had a producer inside the event when everything was unfolding last night and we were able to speak with several witnesses who were outside and heard the gunfire. One witness in particular, the way they described it to us, was that you heard a barrage of assault-style rifle gunshots and then you - and then they - they said they described what they heard as a pop, pop from a pistol.

And then when you listen to the accounts that Garland Police here say that the two men approached the scene, they were stopped just outside of the parking lot of the civic center and that was part of the plan to monitor cars coming in and out. And when the security officer stepped out to approach the car, they say that's when the two - the two gunmen jumped out of their cars, already armed with their assault- style rifles, and began firing. That one security officer who was unarmed was wounded in the lower leg. He's fine. He's been treated and released. It was the second officer that was in that car that fired off the shots that killed both of the suspects. You know, and Garland Police are saying that - that those actions were incredible and saved a lot of lives.

BANFIELD: That's fantastic work as well by traffic officer who, you know, using his handgun was able to hopefully, you know, thwart this from being much, much worse. Ed Lavandera and Rosa Flores, thank you.

I want to move on now to this possible ISIS connection. And joining me now is former CIA operative, now CNN intelligence and security analyst Bob Baer.

So, Bob, take me through where this forensic investigation goes from the actual scene that is still taped off and still marked off to the trail that they're going to have to follow to find out if this went any further than two guys.

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Well, what they're going to look for is any financial support for these two guys, any coordination, serious coordination, in advance of the attack, whether, in fact, it was organized out of Syria or Iraq or wherever. It looks to me - and this is preliminary of course - these guys were, as they've been described, wannabes, lone wolves, who follow a fatwa, that's a religious order online. They swore allegiance to Amir al- Mu'mineen. That's the leader of ISIS. They simply got their instructions off the Internet, went out and bought some rifles.

This kind of crime, the FBI has been predicting this kind of terrorism attack for a long time, just as they're predicting that these things could get more serious.

BANFIELD: And what about this notion that the chief speaker at this event was actually on an al Qaeda hit list? Is that something that needs to be taken far more seriously now or might it actually be proven out, once they get through with the forensics and the social media and everything else they need to do, that these were just lone wolves who just had a mission and that was it?

BAER: Well, I think it was because of the depiction of the prophet. That is a clear red line for jihadist, Muslim radicals to turn to violence. It's very clear. If you get on the Internet, you can see that. If someone depicts the prophet in any form, whether favorably or disfavorably, he is subject to death. And these guys were carrying this out probably on their own. They clearly didn't know what they were doing with automatic weapons. As the attacks been described, that's not the way you use them.

[12:10:11] But let me go back to the fact that you have a lot of Americans fighting in Syria and Iraq going to be back in the country one day, who will understand how to use automatic weapons, and that's what we really should be worrying about.

BANFIELD: Bob Baer live for us, thank you, in Newport Beach, California.

Coming up, as I told you off the top of the show, there is another state now involved in this, and that is Arizona, because at least one of these gunmen - and it is now thought that they were roommates - had an apartment in Phoenix and now there is a huge law enforcement involvement in Phoenix and we're going to take you live to this location to find out what it is they may be finding in that apartment and what clues that may lead to perhaps anyone else, if there is anyone else involved.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Continuing with our breaking news here on CNN. An attack in Texas. Two suspects shot dead. A security officer shot in the leg, treated and released. And now the trail has taken them from this crime scene, where the crime tape is still up, all the way to Phoenix, Arizona, where the suspect hailed from. Police and other investigators now zeroing in on an apartment shared by these two gunmen, at least one of whom now thought to have ties to ISIS.

And joining me now is Javier Soto. He's a reporter with our affiliate KTVK. He's outside of that apartment now.

Javier, can you just give me the scene of exactly what sort of presence is outside of that apartment and if they're saying anything about what they're finding?

[12:15:05] JAVIER SOTO, REPORTER, KTVK: You know, they're keeping it pretty tight lipped at this point as to what they're pulling out of, not only the apartment unit, but also there's a van in the back parking lot where they seem to be targeting this morning. We know that late last night the FBI, with the assistance of Phoenix police, came out here and initially they evacuated several of the units surrounding the particular unit where they were targeting. There were upwards of a dozen, almost two dozen people who were sent packing, told they had to leave this area. That was about 10:00 last night. They weren't allowed back in until 4:00 this morning. But according to some of those neighbors they heard some loud flash bangs. That's when it's believed that the FBI and the Phoenix Police made entry into this particular unit.

Now we've spoke with some FBI officials this morning who said once they made entry, they wanted to make sure nobody was inside at first. Once they were able to determine that, they then sent in a robot to make sure there were no explosives, kind of similar to what we saw yesterday in Dallas before they approached that vehicle. It was that vehicle that the suspects pulled up in where they were able to obtain information that brought them back here to Phoenix.

Now they say once inside, that's when they started gathering evidence. And something inside that - inside this apartment unit here pointed to that van that is in the parking lot. Now, according to neighbors, they say Elton Simpson lived here but they also say that he lived here with a brother. Now we've yet to confirm that and we know they have not identified the second suspect, but the FBI continues to conduct their investigation here in north Phoenix.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Javier, that's great information, especially since that tweet that was sent out before the impending attacks said "my bro," which obviously could be taken two ways, as a friend or a compatriot or an actual brother. So, great information. Thank you. Javier Soto reporting for us live from our affiliate KTVK outsides of the apartment that the two suspects shared.

The American Freedom Defense Initiative may sound innocuous, but the Southern Poverty Law Center says it is a hate group. Its leader is a conservative author and blogger who also heads a group called Stop the Islamization of America. Her name is Pamela Geller. She defended her views to CNN's Alisyn Camerota this morning on "New Day."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA GELLER, PRES., AMERICAN FREEDOM DEFENSE INITIATIVE: There's a problem in Islam. And the problem is, we can't talk about the problem. We are seeing the wholesale slaughter of Christians in Iraq and in Syria. In Nigeria, in the Congo, Central African Republic, the jihad is raging and all we can talk about is backlash-a-phobia. It's nonsense. We have to be able to discuss. And when you say it's - I'm anti-Muslim, excuse me, I'm anti-jihad. And anyone that says that I'm anti-Muslim is implying that all Muslims support jihad.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, ANCHOR, CNN'S "NEW DAY": Well, sure, but I mean the reason -

GELLER: That sounds - that sounds Islam-a-phobic to me. That sounds Islam-a-phobic to me.

CAMEROTA: But the reason -

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I'm joined now by Heidi Beirich of the Southern Poverty Law Center's intelligence product.

Heidi, thanks for being with us.

Can you give me an idea of what it was exactly about this group and that leader in particular that made you feel she needed to make the list of those that are most extremist in this country?

HEIDI BEIRICH, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: Yes. I mean Pamela Geller is one of the most egregious Muslim bashers in the United States. She's been doing this stuff for years. We've had her on our list since at least 2010. She basically has nothing good to say about Muslims and accuses them of being terrorists, of killing Jews and she doesn't make distinctions, right? She doesn't make distinctions between radical factions and all Muslims and that's why she's on our list.

BANFIELD: Do you think that the more attention that is drawn to her events or her points of view, that the more trouble it causes? I know there was a big cry for people to just ignore this event that she was having in Garland, Texas, and, you know, Terry Jones, that pastor down in Florida who burned the Koran, kind of went away.

BEIRICH: Yes, he's serving fries at a restaurant actually down in Florida. Look, this is going to draw attention to Pamela Geller and her extremist views. But the fact of the matter is that people need to confront them. I mean there's two things going on her. She deserves to be designated as the member of a hate group and, at the same time, this violence is horrific and unacceptable. But people need to understand that Pamela Geller is not some innocuous person. The things that she is saying about Muslims are cruel and unfair and it's just really ugly propaganda.

BANFIELD: So you're saying that the - the name that she gives her group, the American Freedom Defense Initiative, is - is inaccurate (ph)? I mean a lot of people would say, you should have every right in this country to draw a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed and have a contest and award money for the one who does it best just to prove a point, that we are free to speak here. It sounds actually like it's - it's not hate speech.

[12:20:07] BEIRICH: No. Look, it can be hate speech and be perfectly legal under the First Amendment. I believe absolutely that she had every right to have these cartoons drawn, publicize the event. That's the American way. We believe in free speech. There's no question.

But there's also the right of others, like myself and the Southern Poverty Law Center, to use our free speech rights to depict what she's doing as accurate, which is anti-Muslim and Muslim bashing in general.

BANFIELD: Well, Heidi Beirich, I appreciate your time. Thank you for speaking with us today. I appreciate it.

BEIRICH: Thanks.

BANFIELD: Coming up, so the keynote speaker at the draw Mohammed contest was on an al Qaeda hit list. Is anyone surprised therefore that violence erupted?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: The keynote speaker at Sunday's Mohammed cartoon drawing contest in Texas was a controversial filmmaker and politician. Here he is. His name is Geert Wilder. He's been a long-time target of Muslim extremists in Europe. Frederik Pleitgen joins me live now from London.

So, Fred, if you could just give me a bit of a feel for who this person is and what kind of controversy surrounds him wherever he goes when he makes these public appearances.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's all about his criticism of Islam and of the Koran. And you're absolutely right, he is someone, Ashleigh, who has been under threat for a very long time. In fact, he's had police protection here in Europe since 2004 because people think that he might be targeted because some of his associates who are also critical of Islam have been targeted and assassinated in the past.

[12:25:08] Now his big thing is, he's very much against the Koran. What he said in the past is he's likened the Koran to Hitler's book (INAUDIBLE). He's trying to get the Koran banned in Holland several times. He's also been in front of a court for allegedly inciting hate speech. He was acquitted of those charges.

But he is certainly someone who's very controversial. There's a lot of people who dislike him. But his party, the Dutch Freedom Party, is one that does resonate with a lot of voters, not just in Holland but in Europe in general. He's in the Dutch parliament right now. He's the fourth strongest faction there. He is also in the European parliament. So he is really a very divisive figure. He is someone who has many Muslims angry to the point where they do threaten violence against him.

He has death threats all the time. That's something that he said at this speech as well. But he's also someone who does have quite a lot of supporters because you do have a good deal of backlash against multiculturalism not just in Holland but in other countries in Europe as well. So, you're right, a very divisive figure, someone who has been very divisive for a long time and someone who's been on al Qaeda's hit list since 2010 when he was mentioned in al Qaeda's "Inspire" magazine, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: So the - the hit list is one thing.

PLEITGEN: Yes.

BANFIELD: But here in America, you know, we have a long history with Salman Rushdie, going on, I think, 26, 27 years now.

PLEITGEN: Yes.

BANFIELD: Where you have a - I hate to say legitimate fatwa, because so many people would say there is no such thing as a legitimate fatwa, but Muslims will say there is. Is he also a subject of a fatwa, which makes him extraordinarily dangerous no matter where he goes in addition to this hit list?

PLEITGEN: Well, he's - yes, I mean, he certainly is - he certainly is very much under threat. I'm not sure if there's a fatwa (ph), but certainly the fact that he's in "Inspire" magazine since 2010 is something that has put him on the hit list in many ways and it's certainly something that's taken very serious here in Europe.

And if you look at the history, especially in Holland, you have a politician whose name was (INAUDIBLE). He was assassinated. He was very much critical of Islam. Then you have the filmmaker Theo Vango (ph). He was assassinated as well by (INAUDIBLE). So it is certainly the case that there have been instances in the past where these people have been threatened, have been killed, and it's certainly something that's taken very seriously with Geert Wilders in particular, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Our Fred Pleitgen reporting live for us from London. Thank you, Fred.

The charges against six Baltimore police officers came very quickly in the death of Freddie Gray, but will convictions be quite so quick and easy? You might be surprised at the uphill battle if these cases even go to trial. We're going to break this all down for you and tell you what's ahead in the days, weeks and years possibly to come.

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