Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Colorado Traffic Stop; NYPD Officers Mourn Slain Comrade; Texas Terror. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired May 05, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:01] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, they have a radio station out of Mosul -- to call both Elton Simpson and Nadir Soofi -- quote -- "soldiers of the caliphate," saying this was the first of many attacks to come on U.S. soil.

So, now we know that, on the day of that attack, Simpson actually tweeted an allegiance to the terror group's leader, Abu Bakr al- Baghdadi. But the question still remains, did this loyalty run both ways prior to the attack? The terror group giving no proof that it ever directed the gunmen to carry out the shooting.

Let's go now to our CNN senior international correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, joining me from Beirut.

And what do we know, Nick, as far as the terror group's role in all of this and any connections, any possibility direct connections or not to these two men?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Very little in the statement by the Al-Bayan official radio broadcasting out of Northern Iraq to suggest any real substantive connection.

There's no detail, intimate knowledge of the planning or foreknowledge of the men's lives in question. That's the key issue here, that, either way, frankly, it is quite chilling for investigators. If there was some sort of connection to ISIS' chain of command, the men they later go on to call brothers, soldiers of the caliphate, in that statement, they barely go into more detail than you could find just scanning across the media.

But, at the same time, too, it is entirely possible that ISIS came out later, after they saw the tweet, after they read reports of the attack and then decided to latch themselves on to it, to accept that pledge of allegiance offered in that one tweet hours before the attack.

Either way, it's chilling. If ISIS do have command and control over men like Elton Simpson, in places like Garland, Texas, that is, of course, troubling for the future of security of the U.S. homeland. But also, too, if those men were simply lone wolves inspired by ideology, by what they'd seen and read online, that's equally chilling, because, frankly, it allows ISIS to extend that branding and ideology with minimal effort on the part of their leadership in Iraq and Syria -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Well, let me say on that, because we have seen other pledges of allegiance, as it were, of others people perhaps who were not in direct contact carrying out attacks in the name of ISIS.

How unusual is it to then have ISIS, ISIS headquarters -- I keep going back to that -- ISIS H.Q. claiming this attack is their own?

WALSH: Well, that is, to a degree, of course, the first time we have seen it in reference to an attack U.S. soil.

But that could simply be opportunism. Now, with Amedy Coulibaly, who was the gunmen who attacked the Paris kosher grocery store after the "Charlie Hebdo" attacks, he left a lengthy video in which he claimed allegiance to ISIS. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but there was no explicit claiming, I believe, of his actions by ISIS after the fact of that.

Forgive me. I think I could be wrong, but the key issue here is simply the fact that we see Al-Bayan after the fact claiming this, and investigators now have to piece together whether or not there was prior communication between ISIS hierarchy and these men in Texas -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK. Nick Paton Walsh, thank you so much.

We also have new information here about the second shooter, his name, Nadir Soofi, the roommate actually of Elton Simpson. So, we have learned the Pakistani-American had a son, an 8-year-old who, sources say, Soofi loved very much. We also knew Soofi's mother was an art teacher. And according to this same source, he was a pretty popular kid, even was in one of his high school musicals, "Bye Bye Birdie."

So, let's talk about all this with Karen Greenberg. She's a director at the Center of National Security at Fordham University Law School.

Karen Greenberg, nice to see you again.

KAREN GREENBERG, CENTER ON NATIONAL SECURITY: Nice to see you.

BALDWIN: Beginning what I just said, when you hear all these details from this source about one of these guys who, again, a lot of these cases, well, he seemed normal. This is what we hear from people anecdotally, that he was in ""Bye Bye Birdie." How much of a challenge is it for counterterrorism officials to -- or even terrifying it is for them to try to figure out who would have nefarious intentions if they seem pretty normal?

GREENBERG: It's very difficult, but they know how to do it.

I mean, this is part of what their job is. And I think they know the difference between -- or they're supposed to know the difference between somebody who is angry and frustrated and somebody who's actually going to pick up a gun.

And whether it's about Islamic extremism or whether it's about some other kind of violence in the United States, that really is what they're -- they're supposed to look at the triggers for this. And it's very, very hard when it comes down to lone players.

BALDWIN: Sure.

GREENBERG: Yes.

BALDWIN: There were, we know, triggers with one of them with regard to, you know, FBI maybe wanting to go to Somalia. He was put on probation. I believe that was 2006. So, then, after the fact, you have to imagine they're monitored. So, what happened?

GREENBERG: So, in this particular case, we're not really talking about a plot that was hatched and directed from above.

We're talking about an incident which these two men responded to and became angry about and decided to target. So, I think -- and which the United States law enforcement authority protected against and others.

[15:05:04]

And I think that's part of it. If you can't do it in a preventive way ahead of time to try to get individuals who are, you know, engaged in a violent act, then what you have to do is prepare to defend those places that might be targets. And this was one of those instances and one of those cases.

And it's another piece of the counterterrorism narrative.

BALDWIN: Does it matter to you? I feel like there is sort of this new counterterrorism narrative with the emergence of ISIS and how they are hip to social media and the ISIS brand and obviously motivating other people. We don't know if there were absolute concrete links, right, any kind of communication between these people who were in Texas and ISIS back over in Syria and Iraq.

Does that matter at this point in time, whether there was a direct communication or simply they tried carrying this out, motivated by them?

GREENBERG: It depends on what you mean, what does it matter for?

What it tells you is that we have seen a number of violent incidents, some related to ISIS, some haven't, in the United States recently, whether they're over gender, whether they're over race, whether they're over religion. And so we're seeing an increasing kind of social unrest.

BALDWIN: Right.

GREENBERG: And now we have this sort of nameless, formless -- or not nameless, but formless, ubiquitous social media presence in ISIS from abroad that is tapping into something very cross-cultural --

BALDWIN: Yes.

GREENBERG: -- among a lot of different individuals. And so it's not so much just about ISIS, because, if you think about it, there have been just under 40 individuals, according to statistics by the Center on National Security, just under 40 individuals who have been arrested in this country for some kind of affiliation with or attempt to join or participate in the fighting of ISIS.

And most of those people wanted to go abroad. This idea of turning it inward, turning into the United States, is new in the indictments, maybe not in the narrative that went on behind the scenes. And so what we really have to look at is, what is that all about, and is there a way to redirect that narrative in some other way, whether to intervene earlier, because many of these individuals are young?

BALDWIN: What -- just listening to what you're saying, what about all of this and especially what's newer about this concerns you the most?

GREENBERG: The thing that concerns me the most about it is how young most of these individuals are. These two shooters in Texas were not -- they were 30, in their 30s.

BALDWIN: Young.

GREENBERG: But most of these individuals are in their early 20s and some of the ones that are alleged to be associated with them are in their teens, teenage years.

So, what concerns me is, there are a lot of very sort of trigger-happy individuals who may -- who see ISIS as a banner they can participate under, ideologically or not. And that is hard for law enforcement to be able to know who, when, where, and why. So, it's a very different kind of challenge that I think is going to involve some constructive interventionist policy, rather than just what we used to do with al Qaeda.

BALDWIN: It's changing.

GREENBERG: Yes.

BALDWIN: Karen Greenberg, always a pleasure having you on. Thank you so much.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Coming up here on CNN: why a traffic stop caught on camera has quickly been seen everywhere. This man says he was unfairly pulled over by police and forcibly removed from his car.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Am I -- am I being placed under arrest?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're not under arrest.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm asking -- I'm asking for a reason why we're being pulled over.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: We have got more of this video and also what happened when the cameras stopped rolling. The man who was speaking there, who recorded this whole thing, he joins me straight ahead.

Also, the case of Freddie Gray's death in Baltimore police custody putting a spotlight on police transport vans. You know, certainly not the first time someone's been hurt badly in the back of one of these vehicles, but how rough can these rides get? CNN investigates. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:12:52]

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Let's talk about this traffic stop in Colorado. It turned ugly and now a lot of people clicking and watching this video. Ryan Brown and his brother Benjamin were pulled over by Colorado Springs police. This is back in March. Ryan was in the passenger seat. He hit record on his cell phone. Here's what happened next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's the reason why pulled us over, officer? I'm recording this. A police officer has pulled us over for no reason. I got this on camera.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have your I.D.?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have my camera. I have my I.D., and I'm recording this, just to let you know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I would like you to pass me your I.D., please. And keep your hands where I can see them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Am I under arrest? You failed to identify yourself. So, I -- I don't know who you are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer -- you know I'm a police officer with the city of Colorado Springs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You failed to identify yourself.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) now cooperate. I just need your I.D. now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You failed to identify yourself. My hands are -- are visible. I have the recorder recording.

My brother is being put in handcuffs. We're pulled over for no reason. He still has not identified why he's pulled us over. Now I'm being perceived as a threat because we're being pulled over for absolutely no reason. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Am I -- am I being placed under arrest?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're not under arrest.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're not cooperating.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm asking -- I'm asking for the reason why we're being pulled over. You have still failed to identify why you have pulled us over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not pulling you --

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are you pulling me out of my car? Sir, take your hands off of me. I have not did nothing. I have not did nothing. I have no weapons. I have no weapons. You have no reason to pull me out of the car.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is assault.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turn around. Turn around. Turn around.

(CROSSTALK)

[15:15:02]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see this? You see this? Excessive force.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And with his face down in the grass, you saw the video end.

The brothers say the officers stopped the recording. They were placed in place cars and served for resisting and interfering with a public official. They ended up being charged with a few other minor offenses. And the man you saw there, Ryan Brown, he now joins me.

He is joined by his attorney, Daniel Recht, former chairman of the ACLU of Colorado. And with me here in New York is Steve Rogers, an expert in community policing and a retired detective lieutenant of Nutley, New Jersey, police.

So, welcome to all of you. And I also have the response here from Colorado Springs' Police Department. So we're going to get to that.

But, first, Ryan, let me just begin with you. We saw some of obviously what happened because of -- you pulled out your cell phone. But my first question is, what happened between when police pulled -- pulled you guys over and to when we see your brother getting handcuffed out of the driver's side of the car?

RYAN BROWN, RECORDED TRAFFIC STOP: Yes. First of all, I wanted to say thank you for having me.

BALDWIN: Sure.

BROWN: The officer, when he pulled us over, he approached the vehicle. He asked my brother -- he asked him for his license.

That was the first thing he asked for. My brother explained to him that, hey, you know, I don't have my license on me right -- we live right here. We're right down the street. We live a couple houses down. He explained that to the officer. I have no problem getting my license for you.

From then, the officer just told my brother to get out of the vehicle and come to the back -- come to his patrol car and so he could identify him. At that point, I told the officer, you know, unless my brother's under arrest, I don't understand why he has to get out of the vehicle.

Apparently, I guess the officer didn't like my response to that. He didn't like that. He opened the door. He pulled out his Taser. He armed his Taser. He pulled my brother from the vehicle, and that's when I told my brother, you know, just get out and comply with his orders. And from that point, that's when I grabbed the -- my camera and started recording.

BALDWIN: So, were the two of you arrested? What happened after the video ended?

BROWN: I was placed in handcuffs, and -- and thrown in the back of the cop car until what seemed like forever, about 30, 40 minutes.

BALDWIN: And then they let you go?

BROWN: Then they let me go. They served me and released me.

BALDWIN: OK.

BROWN: Initially, they were -- oh, I'm sorry.

BALDWIN: No, please go ahead.

BROWN: Initially, they told me that I was going to be placed under arrest.

BALDWIN: OK. OK.

Let me just -- I just want to walk through this step by step by step. And I have a police detective sitting next to me, because I have a couple of questions before I want you to continue, Ryan, with you.

So, Steve, when you look at the police report, it indicated the traffic stop was driving slowly in a high-crime area. Can you just explain that to me first?

STEVE ROGERS, FORMER POLICE DETECTIVE: Brooke, had the -- you know, you and I have talked about how everything boils down to training.

BALDWIN: Right.

ROGERS: Had the officers had reasonable suspicion -- and that's a key word -- that these individuals were armed and dangerous, then what they did was appropriate to protect themselves.

But that was not the case. When they stopped this individual to begin with, they should have told him why they stopped him. Everything went downhill after that.

BALDWIN: Because, Ryan, let me just jump back in. To be crystal clear, you hear your voice asking, why are you pulling me over? Identify yourselves. Did they ever explain to you why they were pulling you over and answer the other questions you were asking?

ROGERS: And he had --

BROWN: Absolutely not.

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Steve.

ROGERS: He had the right to know why he was pulled over. And after you pull someone over, if they fail to comply, then they're obstructing the administration of justice.

But he did ask. I saw the video. He did ask dozens of times, why am I being pulled over? And what puzzled me also was, he was asked if he was being placed under arrest. And they clearly said no, and then he was dragged to the ground and handcuffed. So, it's very puzzling as to how this incident occurred. I think there's a lack of training. And that has to be addressed.

BALDWIN: OK.

Let me go back to the training, but also just to be fair to the Colorado Springs Police Department, here is what I have. It's just a line. The police department was told they cannot comment on the case because it's an active investigation. We reached out, so there's that.

My other question, Ryan, your brother was getting handcuffed. You know, you obviously pull your cell phone out. Did the officers explain to you why your brother was being handcuffed?

BROWN: Absolutely not.

BALDWIN: OK. So, you mentioned --

BROWN: No, they just pulled him -- they just --

BALDWIN: Go ahead. Go ahead.

BROWN: I'm sorry.

[15:20:00]

BROWN: No, they just pulled him from the vehicle, placed him in handcuffs for apparently no apparent reason. At least, we were given none.

DANIEL RECHT, ATTORNEY FOR RYAN BROWN: Hey, Brooke, let's be clear.

Why were they -- why was he put in handcuffs? Because he was a young black man. That's what happened. And it was lucky enough that his brother caught this on video. And in the beginning of the video, you will see outside of the passenger-side window and the passenger, my client, sitting next to me, did nothing wrong, that a gun has already been pulled on him. When he starts the video, there's a gun on his head right from that second forward. And he had done nothing wrong, except be a young black man.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I want you to respond to that accusation.

(CROSSTALK)

ROGERS: I got to tell you --

BALDWIN: Got to jump in.

ROGERS: -- when people throw the race card into every single police incident, it does boil my blood.

These police officers, they have some explaining to do. But to say it was because of race is really -- is really unfair. The police officers -- look, we had an officer die in the city of New York last week.

BALDWIN: We did, 25 years old.

ROGERS: You know why? Because he asked a question. What's in your waistband? And that guy killed him. So, these police officers have to look out for their lives.

I'm not saying what they did procedurally was right. But that's what we're discussing, what they did procedurally wrong, not race, for goodness' sakes.

BALDWIN: Ryan, you want to respond to that? Do you feel like you were targeted?

BROWN: I honestly do.

I feel that I was. When the officer pulled us over and he noticed that he pulled over a couple of brothers, it escalated. To have us pulled out of the vehicle for no apparent reason, to have us thrown to the ground and have my face shoved into the snow for just asking a question, I feel that's excessive.

And I'm hard-pressed to believe, if that was a couple of individuals in a nicer neighborhood, you know, that they would experience the same experience.

BALDWIN: Ryan, lets me just stay with you, because I'm wondering, have you ever had any other personal experiences with police in your lifetime?

BROWN: I have. I have. I have waged a complaint with the Springs Police last year, as a matter of fact. So, it's -- I feel that I possibly could be a target, being targeted.

BALDWIN: Again, I understand this is how you feel. These are your accusations.

Again, we can't get anything from Colorado Springs police because they're saying it's an active police investigation. The fact, though, that pulled out your cell phone to take video, this happened in March, so this would have already been after what happened in Ferguson, after what happened in Staten Island, the non-indictments.

Are -- did that run through your head as a reason for doing what you did, or not at all?

BROWN: Partially.

I'm very conscious of those incidents that happened in Staten Island and Ferguson and Florida, California, Oscar Grant. You know, I'm well aware of those -- those issues, stuff that happened. But the main reason why I did it was because the Springs Police Department, they don't have body cameras. They don't have dash-cams on their vehicles. They don't have these things.

So, it -- it comes down to my word vs. theirs. And just getting from how everything transpired from the beginning, and them pulling my brother out of the vehicle, you know, pulling out the Tasers, I felt I had no choice but to record.

BALDWIN: Do you think, Steve, we will be seeing more of these videos from people? This was supposed to be just a routine traffic stop. Do you think we will see more of these cell phone videos? Do you think that will at all impact an officer's responsibilities or acting?

ROGERS: An officer has to do his job according to the law. And I have trained young police officers about that. Body cameras are great. Cameras in the cars are great.

No police officer doing his job has to fear a camera. What we do fear is when you have other people taking pictures, they could edit it. And I'm not saying this is the case here. This gentleman has a legitimate concern. But they could edit it. We interpret it as race. We interpret it as everything but what it is.

Let due process follow. Give the cops a little bit of a break and let them be allowed to give their explanation before a fair panel. BALDWIN: Important conversation. I'm glad we had it with all three

of you, Ryan Brown, Daniel Recht, and Steve Rogers. Thank you so much.

RECHT: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you, Border Patrol

BALDWIN: All right.

Coming up here, just in to CNN, Baltimore's police commissioner revealing to CNN how and when he was told those -- six of his police officers would be charged criminally in the death of Freddie Gray.

And also, while recent incidents, including Baltimore, may highlight the tension between police and community members, as Steve just mentioned, here in New York City, the loss of a promising young police officer is offering a painful and important reminder about the dangers and risks facing those who bravely wear the badge every day. Please do not miss this interview next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:29:30]

BALDWIN: America's police officers have been front and center in recent days, really recent weeks and months, their roles, their responsibilities, the burdens they carry to protect all of us.

They have also come in for criticism, as we all know. But here in New York, officer Brian Moore reminds of their sacrifices, 25 years old. He died Monday, two days after he was shot in the face at close range. He and his partner had tried to question a man suspected of carrying a handgun. We know he died surrounded by family. His father, an uncle and a cousin are all police officers as well.

Police union chief Patrick Lynch said New York's police will mourn and then go back to work. I have to read this quote for you.