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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Texas Terror Attack; Gunman's Tweets with Recruiter; Feds Investigate Baltimore Police; Knife in Gray Case. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired May 06, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:00:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

I want to begin with the terror attack in Texas as investigators trace the moments, the days, the weeks leading up to that shooting outside a Prophet Mohammed cartoon contest in Garland. The big focus now, the gunman's online ties to terrorists overseas. CNN's Kyung Lah looks at how social media may have played a role in this week's attack.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This morning, investigators on the hunt for any possible accomplices in the Garland, Texas, terror attack. The FBI scrubbing through the two deceased gunman's electronics found in their Phoenix apartment, searching for any clues that may connect Elton Simpson and Nadir Soofi to other terrorists in Phoenix and across the country. But one law enforcement official says investigators did know Simpson was openly communicating online with members of ISIS overseas and even opened a new investigation into both men in recent months.

SETH JONES, DIR., RAND INTL. SECURITY AND DEFENSE POLICY CTR.: I think from an intelligence standpoint, what's difficult is to move that quickly and to arrest him when it's not entirely clear that he's going to do it. And we have a lot of people on social media that are saying these kinds of things.

LAH: Simpson apparently had public exchanges on Twitter with this prominent British born ISIS fighter and a U.S. born al Shabaab fighter in Somalia, Mohammed Abdullahi Hassan (ph). Just a week before the attack, Simpson tweeted in reference to the controversial event, "when will they ever learn." Hassan retweeted his tweet and later wrote, "the brothers from the 'Charlie Hebdo' attack did their part. It's time for the brothers in the U.S. to do their part."

According to U.S. court documents, Hassan traveled to Somalia in 2008 from Minneapolis to join the terrorist group al Shabaab. Court records also suggest Simpson wanted to join the jihad in Somalia around the same time, but it is not known whether Simpson and Hassan knew each other.

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is something that the United States government has been focused on in both of these issues, both in terms of foreign fighters, as well as efforts that are underway by extremists, including those inside ISIL, to use social media to try to radicalize individuals and inspire them to carry out acts of violence.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAH: According to a law enforcement official, their apartment here in Phoenix was relatively baron, but the FBI did manage to retrieve a hard drive and that is currently being analyzed.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: CNN's Kyung Lah, thank you for that.

I want to bring in CNN contributor Michael Weiss, who's the author of "ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror," and also CNN intelligence and security analyst Bob Baer, a former CIA operative.

All right, you two, we've had a lot of conversations about who these guys are, what led to finding them, eventually once they were dead, and why we didn't have more on them before and act more on them before. But let's talk about this. Yesterday at this time it seemed as though they might just be inspired. Today it sounds more like it's a call to action that they may have followed. Is there a big difference, Michael?

MICHAEL WEISS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, when we say a call to action, I mean, remember, ISIS has put out a sort of massive call to action to any and all potential recruits who are mujahedeen -

BANFIELD: Yes, but this specifically says, after "Charlie Hebdo" it's time to go after Geller. Effectively those were the words in different, you know, different (INAUDIBLE).

WEISS: Sure. But, I mean, remember, before the "Charlie Hebdo" massacre, "Charlie Hebdo's" journalists had been on an al Qaeda hit list for many years actually because of the cartoons they had done. But it's very clear -

BANFIELD: I think Geller has been listed as someone who's been targeted too.

WEISS: I would be surprised if she hadn't been.

BANFIELD: Yes.

WEISS: Yes, I mean given what she's got up to. And also, look, this is - remember, ISIS is portraying this as a war against Islam. There are elements within the United States that sort of want to legitimate that propaganda narrative and depict it as such.

My question, though, is this, when we say he's been interacting with an ISIS recruiter on Twitter, look, I researched a book on ISIS. My co-author and I, we interviewed ISIS followers -

BANFIELD: You interacted with ISIS on Twitter (ph).

WEISS: We - right. I mean, you know, I'm not about to go shoot up, you know, a Texas cartoon convention. BANFIELD: Sure. And most aren't.

WEISS: Yes. Exactly. So I think we have to be careful here -

BANFIELD: OK.

WEISS: Because it's one thing to say that ISIS high command, for lack of a better term, decided and, you know, plotted and orchestrated a terrorist attack, found the sleeper agents or, you know, willing executioners to perpetrate that attack and gave them all kinds of logistical planning and intelligence coordination, the rest of it, versus two numpties (ph) who wanted to write their names in the stars and were very jonesing (ph) - very much jonesing to join a terrorist organization, particularly ISIS, decided we're going to do something, connect with guys online and at guys online said, yes, sure, go ahead.

BANFIELD: Go ahead, right.

WEISS: Yes.

BANFIELD: Bob Baer, let me talk about that a little bit because the guys who said sure, go ahead, if that's effectively what they did, they, the next day, started working in the success story that it was for ISIS, claiming responsibility, saying these were great mujahedeen. But effectively they're using it whether it was successful or not as their propaganda. What is America doing in the propaganda war and what is America not doing enough of perhaps in the propaganda war?

[12:05:10] BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I mean, these guys were clearly self-recruited wannabes. They didn't know how to use weapons. They didn't stand a chance of getting into that exhibition, that cartoon exhibition. In other words, they flubbed it.

Now, when ISIS claims something like this, it tells me that ISIS is desperately trying to bring the wars in the Middle East to the United States and they can't. Now, the United States, in terms of propaganda, is continuing to lose the war every day because, you know, basically its very essence the war in the Middle East is a sectarian war and we've taken sides, both with the Sunni and the Shia, so we are participants in that war and no amount of propaganda can rescue us from that. So -

BANFIELD: Well, I think I mean, Bob, really, you know, yesterday I said, how could ISIS claim this as a success when two of their foot soldiers, so to speak, in the United States have slugs in their head and didn't get any action themselves. They didn't effectuate any serious damage to anyone in the United States. And what I'm saying is, why isn't America screaming that message from the mountaintop to anybody else in the U.S. who might be having these Twitter conversations with the leaders of ISIS?

BAER: Well, Ashleigh, you know, what they're scared of is that an organized attack is going to come along. I talked to U.S. law enforcement, in fact lectured them on what one of these attacks would look like, and it would have been entirely different if trained fighters came back from Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria, and did a real assault on the exhibition like this because they probably would have gotten through. So the administration doesn't want to say, look at these guys, they're paper tigers, we don't need to worry about them. If this is the best they can do, we can ignore them, because I think they truly are worried about a serious attack occurring in this country.

BANFIELD: So I wonder then - and, Michael, you can join in on this as well, if the propaganda war can actually be stoked any further by America joining in. I tend to think that ISIS is ISIS, they want to do what they're going to do. They're probably training people right now with the hopes of sometime releasing them back into the United States to wreak their havoc. But in the meantime, they seem delighted that there might be a few people around the United States with these kinds of designs.

WEISS: Sure.

BANFIELD: And isn't the propaganda war effective if you just get those guys?

WEISS: Look, the U.S. has been going about this all wrong since this coalition was cobbled together. They think that if you can emphasize or highlight the atrocities ISIS is committing, genocide against the Yazidis, sex slaves -

BANFIELD: That you'll dissuade people like these two guys who just crossed state lines to kill a bunch of people at a cartoon contest?

WEISS: And it's just - yes. And just ask yourself the question, why does ISIS go to such great pains to exhibit their own atrocities? Because they know this becomes a galvanizing tool. This - this is actually increasing the ranks of recruitment. The U.S. State Department has a Twitter account that literally trolls these guys online, goes after them and says, you know, this is what you're doing, you're disenfranchising a whole generation of Muslim children. And I've seen the ISIS fighters or followers on Twitter completely ignore the U.S. State Department.

BANFIELD: Sure. Sure.

WEISS: We could not give a damn.

BANFIELD: So, Bob Baer, what about releasing the pictures of the bodies of these two dead mujahedeen, if that's what they want to call them, saying, so if you're in Iowa and you think this is good and that you'll, you know, get your name in the stars, actually this is what will happen and you more than likely won't make any headway for your efforts?

BAER: I disagree. I think this is an enemy that seeks martyrdom, they want to die in these attacks. That's the whole point, that they'll give their lives up for a cause. And -

BANFIELD: The key word being attacks, though, Bob. They didn't get anywhere. They just died for nothing. And that's what I'm trying to suggest is, why isn't America screaming that part from the mountaintops?

BAER: Oh, I - that's the way - that's the way you and I -

BANFIELD: You're not going to get anywhere - go ahead.

BAER: That's the way you and I look at it. But when they die, they consider that a victory. I know it's completely contrary to everything we've ever, you know, own up -

BANFIELD: Even if they don't take a few lives with them?

BAER: It doesn't matter. It's the dedication and they go to heaven and it's not about birth (ph), just the sacrificing martyrdom which just makes this enemy so scary.

BANFIELD: Yes. It's pretty confounding, I think, to the likes of many educated people in the west and elsewhere who just cannot believe that this kind of propaganda works on their side.

Bob Baer, thank you. Good to see you. Good to talk to you. Michael Weiss, thank you as well, as always, for your insight.

WEISS: Sure.

BANFIELD: Just coming up after the break, we're going to take you to Baltimore. A lot happening there today. Big announcements about police. Big announcements about National Guard. Big announcements from the top leaders in Baltimore and the state of Maryland. Is it going to make a difference? Body cams for one and a whole lot more, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:13:10] BANFIELD: Welcome back.

Moments ago the governor of Maryland lifting the state of emergency in the city of Baltimore and going further to recalling all of the rest of the National Guard that was stationed throughout that city. This coming shortly after the Baltimore mayor making an announcement of her own that she wants the federal Justice Department to investigate the entire Baltimore police force.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE (D), BALTIMORE: In order to achieve the kind of sustainable and significant reform that we want to see, that I want to see, that the citizens want to see in Baltimore, I am requesting the Department of Justice conduct a federal pattern or practice investigation into the Baltimore City Police Department. The Department of Justice has employed these investigations in communities across our nation to reform serious patterns and practices of excessive force, biased policing, and other unconstitutional practices by law enforcement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Athena Jones is live in Baltimore with more on this. The last I checked, Athena, a mayor of a city does not need to go on

television to ask for the federal Justice Department to come in and investigate the police force. They're already there. They're looking at the Freddie Gray case. And they could have come up with that on their own. So what's afoot here?

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the mayor is responding to the demands of folks here in the city of Baltimore. As you mentioned, this is a new request. The DOJ, the Department of Justice, is already investigating that specific Freddie Gray case, whether his civil rights were violated. But she wants to see this larger investigation into the patterns and practices of the police department. She says it will help them to make the reforms for her to continue reforming the police department, which she has been trying to do. But she wants this Justice Department investigation to help push for more reforms.

BANFIELD: Ah -

JONES: Of course one of the things they'll look at is whether or not police have engaged in unreasonable searches and seizures, violating citizens' - residents here Fourth Amendment rights, their civil rights. So it is a big deal. The DOJ has not yet said whether or not they are - they are going to do that, but we know that the attorney general is looking at that request and is considering it.

[12:15:16] Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Yes, I mean this is so odd because the AG was just there and I assume they would have had a conversation about this. So it just seemed odd to me the request was made on television.

JONES: They did.

BANFIELD: And not only that, Athena, but, you know, in Ferguson, the DOJ went there. they were looking at what happened with that case. And they came up with the solution on their own to look at the - the police force. So just - it - I don't know, it smacks of something strange that it has to be a TV press conference.

But let me move on to what else she's doing, and this is big because she does have control over this. It's outfitting the entire police department with body cameras by the end of the year. Tell me what she's talking about in that respect.

JONES: This is interesting because one of the first things she said when she came out to speak to us, the gathered reporters, was that by the end of the year the police here would have body cameras. So I asked, well, OK, how soon, how many, will everyone in the police department have a body camera? She said she didn't want to create false expectations, but she has directed her people to cut through any bureaucratic red tape that may be there so that they can fast track this process, make sure that they can get body cameras to as many police officers as possible. She said this would be the largest program of any police department existing in terms of body cameras in the country. Now, we know that the governor, Larry Hogan, is going to sign next

Tuesday a series of bills that deal with criminal justice reform, that deal with some of these police issues. One of those bills would set up a pilot program for police officers to have body cameras. But as I mentioned, the mayor here wants to see that happen in this city by the end of the year. We'll be watching to see when it happens. She says she wants to make sure they do it right.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Yes, (INAUDIBLE). A huge, huge proponent of that. Athena, that - it's so smart. Crime stats go down on both sides of the equation every time there's a camera present, so that's great news.

And then you just mentioned Governor Larry Hogan is going to be busy in the next week or so but he was also busy today giving a press conference about sort of the state of the union in that city. Run down effectively what did he say?

JONES: Well, the main message of the press conference was what with you mentioned earlier, the fact that he's lifted this state of emergency that was put in place, that allowed the National Guard troops to come in, allowed for the increased police - law enforcement performance of police, not just from surrounding cities, but even surrounding states to come in here into the city of Baltimore in the days - or night of those riots and the days after to try to calm the city down, keep the peace.

Of course they lifted - the mayor lifted the curfew on Sunday. They began pulling out those National Guard troops soon after. And so today's big announcement was that that state of emergency has been lifted. And the other news, of course, is that this coming Tuesday he'll be signing a series of bills, one of them, of course, involving body cameras.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: All right, Athena Jones live for us doing the work in Baltimore, thank you for that. A busy day for Athena and everyone else who's collecting the facts on that story.

JONES: Thanks.

BANFIELD: Athena, thanks.

So, coming up, you have heard these terms thrown about, probable cause, illegal arrest, charges, indictments, et cetera, but what about that knife, the one that was found on Freddie Gray? Could there be something to it that might lead to some clearing of some officers' charges? You might be surprised to find out just what it takes and what the law actually says, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:21:40] BANFIELD: In an exclusive interview with CNN, Baltimore's police commissioner, Anthony Batts, says that the community is lacking trust in law enforcement and admits that the police are, quote, "part of the problem." Those are his guys. He went on to further tell my CNN colleague Evan Perez that he was surprised by the charges that were levied against the six officers connected to Freddie Gray's death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COMMISSIONER ANTHONY BATTS, BALTIMORE POLICE: Well, I found out that the state attorney was going on in what she was going to present probably about 10 minutes before she went on. She gave me a phone call and told me what she was about to do and that she was going on live. She told me what the charges were.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: What were your first words out of your mouth when you heard that?

BATTS: I don't want to get into that so much. I can say that I was probably surprised, you know, by the information that I heard. Again, my mind started going to what's going to be the response in the community, what's going to happen in the community?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I wondered that exact same thing. In fact, I happened to be at that news conference where Baltimore state's attorney, Marilyn Mosby, announced those charges and I happened to notice that the commissioner was not standing up with her and all those other officials and so I asked her about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Commissioner Batts isn't standing with you. What's his reaction to this?

MARILYN MOSBY, BALTIMORE STATE'S ATTORNEY: You would have to ask Commissioner Batts.

BANFIELD: Have you spoken through this with him?

MOSBY: I've spoken with Commissioner Batts. I've spoken with the mayor. I've spoken with the governor. Yes.

BANFIELD: Did you invite him to stand with you today?

MOSBY: I spoke with the governor. I spoke with the commissioner. You'd have to ask him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: We did. He'd spoken with her only minutes before. That looks like there might be a division between the police and state's attorney as if there weren't already reason for a division, the charges. The state asserts that Freddie Gray was illegally arrested, but one of the officers who has been charged says that is not true. Officer Edward Nero has filed a motion to require the state to produce the knife that Freddie Gray was carrying, arguing that the knife was, in fact, illegal, even though the state's attorney says it wasn't. Well, gosh, that seems like it's black and white. Either it is or it

isn't. How does this happen? I want to talk about the legal significance of all of this with CNN legal analyst Mark Geragos, and with us also, California prosecutor Wendy Patrick.

OK, where am I missing something? Either a knife is legal or it's not legal, because when the microscope is on a case like this, you're going to get your ducks in a row. Mark, please tell me that a state's attorney would have those ducks in a row and have checked every "i" and "t" before coming out and making that announcement with those charges.

MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I don't know that that's necessarily true, number one, in this case, obviously. And you've been a little bit sarcastic so far today about - I don't know.

BANFIELD: A little? A little?

GERAGOS: Just a wee bit sarcastic about what's going on down there.

BANFIELD: Yes.

GERAGOS: And, look, even if -

BANFIELD: I see a lot of politics playing in -

GERAGOS: It's all politics. I mean it's all politics. Everybody has got their ax skinning (ph) gourd (ph) and I'm telling you right now, I'll make a bold prediction, the fact that this police commissioner is at odds with the state's attorney does not bode well for her prosecution. I've been there before. When the police commissioner is not on board with the prosecution, things happen, your case falls apart. It's an amazing thing that happens to a prosecutor.

BANFIELD: And this is why, Wendy, when I saw that that man on the screen was not standing up there, in solidarity with the process, because if he's got bad apples, he doesn't want them either, right?

WENDY PATRICK, PROSECUTOR: Yes, that's -

[12:25:01] BANFIELD: He wants his city to be safe.

PATRICK: It's true. That's a very astute observation you make because you really - what we're seeing now is two camps. The first camp says, you know, justice delayed is justice denied. The second camp says, this is a rush to justice. Nobody wants that.

BANFIELD: And that's justice denied.

PATRICK: That's justice denied as well, absolutely.

BANFIELD: Let me ask you this. Everybody's talking about was it legal or illegal that knife. And my question -

GERAGOS: That's the only question.

BANFIELD: So that is my question for you, isn't it really in the officer's mind -

GERAGOS: This is the only question. They've got a good - right, if he's got a good faith belief that that's not a legal weapon, then you don't throw out the probable cause. I mean that's - they'll save it. I mean I don't know, if this were a case that didn't have the microscope on it, no judge is going to say, oh, that's an illegal arrest, I'm going to - I'm going to kick it out. Give me a break.

BANFIELD: OK. So it's a fine point. But I've got to ask you this, Hollywood is real good at showing us what a switch blade looks and sounds like.

PATRICK: Oh -

BANFIELD: Is it really like that in real life?

PATRICK: Absolutely not. And to pick up on Mark's point, it's true, probable cause does - you don't have to be - you don't have to be right, you know, because, think about what we're talking about. And you make a good point with what does a switch blade look like. There are so many varieties of knives, right, from butcher knife down to a, you know, fingernail file. And we all know that because remember when TSA put those regulations into effect, people couldn't tell the things apart.

BANFIELD: OK, should a police officer working the beat though be able to tell that apart?

PATRICK: They should.

BANFIELD: I'd like to say shouldn't they.

PATRICK: Absolutely. Except -

GERAGOS: Other -- except even if he's wrong it doesn't mean probable cause disappears.

BANFIELD: He just had some concept -

GERAGOS: He had - if it was good faith, if he saw (ph) it (ph) -

BANFIELD: There's running away. There's a high crime neighborhood. There's a takedown. And I haven't seen the police report. It's not public yet. So I don't know if there was any kind of resistance or an inability to get a good spot (ph).

GERAGOS: Well, I guarantee you they're going to say there was resistance. They don't - they don't put somebody back into the van and say that he cooperated.

BANFIELD: I don't know that to be true -

GERAGOS: I know that to be true in everything.

BANFIELD: And I always want to give the benefit of the doubt to Freddie Gray, I want to give the benefit of the doubt to these officers and that's what everybody should be doing at this point (ph).

PATRICK: Right.

GERAGOS: Well, no, I'm not saying - I'm not saying that Freddie Gray resisted. I'm saying that that report is going to say he resisted.

BANFIELD: And that will be a big part of a defense, right, mark my words, isn't the defense attorney for each of the officers charged with the takedown of Freddie Gray going to say there's something else afoot?

GERAGOS: The motion -- the motion you just showed is right on. I mean he - he should demand that. He should - and he's got the law accurately.

BANFIELD: Will he get the discovery?

GERAGOS: Yes.

PATRICK: But there's a - there's an issue of credibility that's permeating the discussion that we're having. I mean, what did the knife look like, what kind of a knife it was, because the credibility of the statements that were made at the press conference is being called into question. That's a larger issue that -

BANFIELD: If you don't have your police commissioner on board it is.

PATRICK: Well, exactly. And that's one of the reasons we're talking about it.

BANFIELD: Really, like you said -

GERAGOS: I'm just telling you, without him there, the case is going to crumble.

BANFIELD: Producers, save the tape. Save the tape because we're, what, maybe a year or two away from an actual prosecution if any of these things get to trial.

GERAGOS: Correct.

BANFIELD: If they're not settled.

GERAGOS: Well, or if they get thrown out -

PATRICK: It's starting out pretty quick.

BANFIELD: Indeed, unbelievably quick.

All right, Mark, Wendy, thank you both. Really appreciate it.

I have one more note to tell you about as well. Prince, he used to be called the Artist Formerly Known as Prince, and now I really don't know what he's called but he's Prince to me, he's announced a Mother's Day rally for peace concert in Baltimore. And the organizers say the event is, quote, "meant to be a catalyst for pause and reflection." What an excellent concept. It's going to take place Sunday at the Royal Farms Arena.

So you thought you had pretty much heard it all on the Germanwings murder/suicide flight, but now there's a brand new report out of France and it's starting off with a shocker. After the break, details of the co-pilot's dry run, yes, dry run, before the killer flight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)