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Hollywood Embryo Battle; British Elections; Defense Tries to Spare Boston Bomber's Life. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired May 07, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:04]

LAURIE SEGALL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: She had to say, I have the copyright.

So, then she had to send the naked photos to the government to get the -- the copyright. And she was able to get it. She was able to get some...

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: She was?

SEGALL: ... photos taken down.

Now, that being said, here's the caveat. It's a game of Whac-A-Mole. They keep popping up all over. She has a Google alert set for her name. Every time she Googles herself or every time she gets that alert, she cringes, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Horrible. Horrible.

SEGALL: Horrific.

BALDWIN: Horrible this is happening and that the laws aren't catching up. They need to. Do not miss Laurie's special. She's putting all this together. It airs Saturday night, 7:30 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN. Laurie Segall, thank you.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: All right, off the top, breaking news. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

This is what we have now in the wake of that deadly shooting over the weekend at that exhibit featuring cartoon depictions of the Prophet Mohammed in a Dallas suburb. Here's what CNN has now just learned, that the FBI did indeed warn Texas authorities about one of the suspected gunmen here, Elton Simpson, three hours before the attack, this coming to us from our justice correspondent, Evan Perez, having just spoken with the director of the FBI.

A security guard was injured before officers at the scene killed Simpson and his accomplice.

So, let me bring in CNN law enforcement analyst and former FBI Assistant Director Tom Fuentes. Tom Fuentes, when you hear this, explain to me, as a former assistant

director of the FBI, when the FBI tips off Garland police -- and to be precise, it was that Elton Simpson had expressed interest in this event. Where does the ball go from there?

TOM FUENTES, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think the ball was always in the court of Garland P.D. from the beginning, from the beginning of event planning.

And I think, even from that time several months in advance, they knew this event would probably attract somebody who would want to initiate an attack with firearms. So, I think that the police in Garland working with all the other agencies in the area, federal, state, and local, had established a great plan to secure the event and had these officers outside in the lot, you know, watching the parking lot.

So I think that they were pretty confident that even if somebody was able to get past the first perimeter security at the lot, they had a SWAT team at the rear entrance to this facility and that the SWAT team would be able to make a stop of what happened before they could get in and shoot. So...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: No, sure. They had $30,000 worth of security.

FUENTES: Right.

BALDWIN: This is what the event put on, sort of anticipating the need.

But back on Elton Simpson and his expressed interest, you can have all the security you want at this event, but if they had this information, this is all based upon these social media ties, right, that he'd been communicating with apparently members of ISIS, what were they doing about Elton Simpson?

FUENTES: Well, they didn't know for sure he was actually going there to do the attack.

(CROSSTALK)

FUENTES: My understanding is that they thought they saw this social media traffic and thought he's interested and he's talking about it. But they see a lot of that all the time from people that say they're going to do something and don't actually do it.

They did the sensible thing. They notified Garland. I'm sure Garland said, we have got a great plan in place, which they did. So I think at that point, they probably thought, if these guys come, we're ready. We will take advantage of the security that we have in place, and we don't think we need much more than what we have, and stood by that.

BALDWIN: Tom Fuentes, thank you.

FUENTES: You're welcome. BALDWIN: Now to Boston, where the defense for marathon bomber

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is nearing the end of its push to spare his life. The 21-year-old faces the death penalty after a jury found him guilty in that attack from 2013.

All this week long, you have this lead defense attorney, Judy Clarke, and she's put family member after family member on the stand, old acquaintances of the younger Tsarnaev brother on the stand, looking to paint a softer, almost childlike image of this convicted terrorist.

One of the very high-profile witnesses the defense wants to put on the stand is this woman's Sister Helen Prejean. Her story was the basis for the Oscar-winning film "Dead Man Walking" starring Sean Penn and Susan Sarandon. It's about a nun who comforts and eventually empathizes with a death row inmate and his victim's families.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN SARANDON, ACTRESS: But you have a dignity now. Nobody can take that from you. You are a son of God, Matthew Poncelet.

SEAN PENN, ACTOR: Nobody ever called me a son of God before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Sister Helen Prejean has gone on to become an advocate against capital punishment.

With me now, anti-death penalty attorney and Loyola University Law professor Bill Quigley. He's known Sister Helen for 25 years.

Professor, welcome.

BILL QUIGLEY, LOYOLA UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: Thank you.

[15:05:01]

BALDWIN: I know you are very, very tight with her. You have followed her work. I just wanted to begin with tell me more about her. How did she grow to become such a staunch advocate for this?

QUIGLEY: Well, she's always been a tremendous person.

And -- but for the first couple of decades as a Catholic sister, she led a fairly traditional life of teaching religious studies, teaching grade school, and that. But in the very early 1980s, she moved into one of the housing developments in the New Orleans area, started understanding more about the lives of poor people, and struck up a pen pal relationship with a man on death row.

And that man encouraged her to write to him and ultimately she visited him. She was moved by his humanity and his plight and became a very passionate opponent of the death penalty when used against people who have obviously committed very serious crimes.

BALDWIN: In the case in Boston, sir, we're talking terrorism. This was an incident that shook the consciousness of the city and really the nation to know that this happened, that several people were murdered and so many others lost limbs.

It shook so many people. So how has terrorism, right, how has her opinion on that or her approach to being against capital punishment, has that evolved at all?

QUIGLEY: Well, she started with one person. And the genius, really, of Sister Helen is that she showed tremendous empathy and understanding of the people who are accused of and in most cases convicted of terrible crimes and tries to hold up their humanity.

But shortly after she began this work, she was approached by families of the victims of the people that she was counseling. And they said, well, look, Sister Helen, you're full of compassion, you're full of understanding, but what about for us? What about the families of the murder victims as well?

BALDWIN: Right. What did she say?

QUIGLEY: And she said, my God, I'm so sorry. I apologize that I didn't reach out to you. And since -- because of that experience, she grew close to those families. She's visited with hundreds of families of murder victims, along with dozens of people on death row across this country, and she sees this really as -- the death penalty as a tragedy and a terrible thing for all people involved, that there's a sense that the legal system should kill the person who kills somebody else, and that is going to bring about closure, or bring about justice, bring about some sort of outswelling of solidarity and understanding and closure for the victim's families.

But that doesn't happen. And so I think if she does have the chance to be on the stand, I think she will be very powerful because she does understand both the people who are facing the death penalty and is deeply connected with the families of murder victims around the world.

BALDWIN: But, professor, how does she -- how does she sit on the stand and try to explain to these jurors that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is a compassionate man? How do you think she could help save his life?

QUIGLEY: I don't -- I'm not sure. I doubt that she's going to get up there and say that he is a compassionate man. What she is going to talk about, I think, is, what does the death penalty say about us, those of us on the outside? What does that teach our children if we say that the reason we kill is because they kill?

And what -- it's really more about our human dignity and their human dignity. The United States is one of the few countries in world that executes people anymore. State after state is outlawing that. And it's not about you feel sorry for the person who is facing the death penalty.

It is more, what does it say about us? What is the best way to bring this matter to a conclusion, where he can spend the rest of his breathing life in prison? And we know that in Boston, at least one of the families of the victims who died, they have said the same thing. They have said, we miss our son.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Martin Richard's parents, the youngest victim, has said we don't want to deal with the appeals process, pleas.

QUIGLEY: Right.

BALDWIN: Let's not put him to death for this very reason. We don't want to continue to be re-wounded and continue to grieve. I know.

Bill Quigley, we have got to go. But this is fascinating just to hear what she could potentially say if this nun is called to defend this side of the case. Bill Quigley, university -- Loyola University, thank you so much for joining me.

QUIGLEY: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: I want to stay on this, because even if Dzhokhar Tsarnaev isn't sent to death row, he could face a life of living hell at what is known as the toughest prison in the United States. I'm talking about this supermax facility in Florence, Colorado.

This is where some of the worst of the worst are sent. Just take a look at some of these inmates. These are names and faces you will recognize, Olympic Park bomber Eric Rudolph, Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, 9/11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui, also the man who assisted in the Oklahoma City bombing, Terry Nichols, and the shoe bomber, Richard Reid.

[15:10:14]

They're all serving time at the supermax.

My next guest, Larry Levine, he has served time in federal prison. He's now the director and founder of The Wall Street Prison Consultants.

Larry Levine, when we talk about hell, this is how I have heard the supermax referred to, what kind of hell are we talking?

LARRY LEVINE, FORMER FEDERAL INMATE: Well, he may not necessarily end up at the ADX in Colorado.

I talked to Bruce Cameron, a retire retired Bureau of Federal Prisons official, and our consensus is he may end up in Terre Haute, Indiana, at the CMU, a custody management unit, or possibly in Marion, Illinois, at the death house, where they actually -- excuse me -- Terre Haute is where they put people to death, the death unit.

Or Marion, Illinois, which is the custody management unit. But wherever they send him, he ends up there, he ends up in ADX, they're going to put him underground. And they're going to have to pipe sunlight into this guy.

(CROSSTALK) BALDWIN: Whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean underground?

(CROSSTALK)

LEVINE: No, I'm serious. The ADX, which is in Florence, Colorado, administrative maximum, it's an underground situation where the housing unit, it's called H Unit, is actually underground. You have no real contact with staff members, with other inmates.

It's kind of like you're locked in an 84-square-foot, a seven-by-12- foot cell 24 hours a day. And your shower -- it's time for you to take a shower, it's kind of like you're on "Star Trek." You're in your cell. The door slides open, and a robot -- it's like a robotic shower is sitting outside the door. You're not leaving your cell. When you get your mail, you're getting your mail over a television set.

When you're reading -- when you're meeting your visitors, you're meeting your visitors over a TV, over a video link. It's a no-contact prison. He gets, what, one 15-minute phone call a month. His meals are brought to him the same way. It's like an automated process.

Other than possibly a doctor or his religious, I don't know -- he's Muslim. Whoever it is, that's really the only people he's going to see. So he better get used to reading the Koran. Maybe that'll give him some salvation because they're not going to let him have much personal property in there. He's not going to have the same kind of social experience that a regular inmate would have.

BALDWIN: Well, he's a convicted terrorist. I mean, does he deserve that? I'm hanging on your every word. Go ahead. Go ahead, Larry.

(CROSSTALK)

LEVINE: If it was me -- hey, it was me, Brooke, I would be giving him the needle right now. I wouldn't be waiting for the jury.

And even if he gets -- let's say he gets a death sentence, there's automatic appeals built into death sentences. He may sit in a prison somewhere for months or years, somewhere.

BALDWIN: I read about this ADX. Just quickly, this final quote. This is a former inmate at this place who talked to "60 Minutes" in 2009, described the prison as -- quote -- "It breaks down the human spirit. It breaks down the human psyche. It breaks your mind."

Larry Levine, thank you.

Just a short time from now, British voters will decide the fate of David Cameron. Hear how actor Russell Brand and social media are playing huge, huge roles. Plus, Sofia Vergara's ex speaking out to CNN about his battle over embryos with the "Modern Family" actress. Hear his emotional words and whether he has a case.

And Tom Brady getting ready to break his silence in a couple of hours. This is a day after NFL accused him of knowing about those deflated footballs. More on Deflategate. Stay with me. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:18:26]

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And what's happening right now in the U.K. has the power to dramatically shift the relationship between the United States and Britain, its most important ally. You have millions of voters here casting their ballots today in what is expected to be one of the tightest elections in history and the race between these two men is going to be tight.

You have the fate of the man on the left, hangs in the balance here, the Conservative prime minister, David Cameron, now neck and neck with the man on the left here. This is Ed Miliband, leader of the more liberal opposition Labor Party.

Let's go now to London to Nic Robertson, our CNN senior international correspondent.

And, so, Nic, U.K. law prevents you from actually talking about the politics of the election right now, I know, but our segment just being broadcast in the U.S., you can speak freely here. So tell me, why is that against the law, and how strictly is it enforced?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's strictly enforced.

There's a government regulation -- regulatory body that watches out for this sort of thing. The reason these restrictions are put in place between 7:00 a.m.-10:00 p.m., when the polls are open, you're not allowed to talk about the politicians or their policies or even, you know, what could happen and how the government might be formed going forward after the elections.

The reason for that is so it doesn't influence the voters. And that is very strictly enforced here. And even the way that the sort of run-up to the elections is covered, that has a strong set of guides and regulations. If you go to a constituency and you cover before polling day and you cover one politician standing in that constituency, you have to cover them all or give them all a chance to speak.

[15:20:04]

But what's at play here, look, you have these sort of more smaller fringe parties pulling left and pulling right. The Conservatives, David Cameron, in power right now, the U.K. Independence Party, a very small right-wing party, wants Britain out of the European Union. The United States often looks at Europe and says, why can't Europe act as one united body and often looks at Britain as an ally to help make that happen.

Well, the U.K. Independence Party is pulling to the right, wants Britain out. David Cameron, Conservative leader, forced to offer in these elections and say that he would hold a referendum 2017. Right now, the country probably wouldn't go for it. But that's one way things could change. Let's look on the other side of the equation here.

The opposition party, if they want to get into power, likely going to have to vote with the Scottish National -- Nationalist Party, who are expected to make massive gains in these elections. The Scottish Nationalist Party, quite socialist, they want to end Britain's nuclear deterrent and Britain having nuclear weapons.

That would really sort of put us outside of NATO or certainly diminish massively our NATO commitments. The United States looks upon Britain and NATO -- or Britain's membership in NATO as an important thing, so pretty significant stuff potentially at stake, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Nic Robertson, we know you're watching it incredibly closely, as are we. Nic Robertson, thank you very much.

Coming up next, actress Sofia Vergara, we have talked about her quite a bit. She's been speaking out about her battle over her embryos with her former fiance Nick Loeb, saying Loeb is -- quote -- "taking advantage of her."

Well, Nick Loeb is firing back. He spoke with CNN's Alisyn Camerota this morning in what really turned out to be an emotional interview. You will hear from him. Plus, what is the legal basis for keeping or destroying embryos? We will discuss that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:26:05]

BALDWIN: Right now, this fierce battle is captivating Hollywood. You have actress Sofia Vergara and her former fiance, Nick Loeb. They're locked in this custody fight, but it's a custody fight over embryos.

Vergara, who's now engaged to someone else, is speaking out. She wants the embryos destroyed. She's accusing Loeb of using her fame to get attention for his push to preserve the embryos.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SOFIA VERGARA, ACTRESS: I don't understand why this person -- I don't want to allow this person to take more advantage of my career and try to promote himself, get press for this. It shouldn't be out there, you know, for people to give their opinion when there's nothing to talk about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That's one side.

Let's get the other with CNN anchor Alisyn Camerota. She's just interviewed Loeb on "NEW DAY." And she's with me, as is Sunny Hostin, our CNN legal analyst, because there's lots of legalities to get into. But, first, amazing -- of course I would want to talk to you as well, but this is so incredibly personal. What struck you the most?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: What struck me the most was an answer that he gave to the question of, why can't he move on? So many people online have said, you're a good-looking guy. Go get your own girlfriend. Go fall in love. Go start your own family.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And his answer to why he can't do that was really surprising. So, take a listen.

BALDWIN: OK. Let's look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: I know this is such an emotional topic. Have you felt alone?

NICK LOEB, FORMER FIANCE OF SOFIA VERGARA: Yes, it has been tough.

This is -- I always have wanted children. I have always wanted to be a father. I didn't create lives lightly. This was very, very important to me, to the point where we thought we -- when we created these lives and we were going to put them into a surrogate, we were coming up with names for our children.

And so to do anything besides continue their journey towards life and through birth, you know, to me is tantamount to destruction.

CAMEROTA: There are a lot of people out there who say you are a good- looking guy, you are a catch, move on, go find a love in your life.

LOEB: Of course. And I would like to. And, obviously, it's not as -- easier said than done. You don't go out the next day and just meet somebody. Hopefully, one day, I will meet somebody and we will fall in love and have a child, but that doesn't mean I should just give up the two lives that I have created.

CAMEROTA: But if you fell in love with somebody right now and you started a relationship, would all this be over? Would you let those embryos go?

LOEB: No. You know, unfortunately, again, their lives I have created. That means somebody would have to accept me, that I have two other children, no different if I had two children that were born.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: It's interesting. He keeps -- instead of saying embryos, embryos, he says those lives, those lives.

CAMEROTA: That's how he sees it. I mean, he sees it as lives. He believes life begins at conception. He's not alone. Half of the country believes that life begins at conception. So he doesn't see them as embryos. This isn't scientific to him.

This is heartfelt.

BALDWIN: We have talked about this on the show. I talked to somebody down in Atlanta at Emory University, a reproductive specialist, who was obviously saying to me, listen, when you're a couple and you always know it may not end in love and marriage or what have you, you're signing lots and lots of documents, right, and paperwork if there's a breakup or if you don't use all the embryos.

So, shouldn't this all be on paper?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, they did sign plenty of paperwork.

I have the lawsuit here that he filed. But the bottom line is, when I review it, they only decided the issue as to what would happen to these embryos in the event of their death, one or the other.

BALDWIN: Their death.

HOSTIN: So, they didn't necessarily consider...

BALDWIN: The breakup.

HOSTIN: ... separation or a breakup or a divorce. And that's been really the issue.

We have a lot of child custody law, but we don't have embryo custody law, because what generally happens is, the wheels of justice sort of take a really long time to turn. And we just haven't caught up. The lawyers haven't caught up with all these scientific advancements.

BALDWIN: Jump in. I know...

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: That's why he believes that this consent form is null and void, because it did not include the provision of, what happens if you break up?

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Whose fault is that? Why weren't they asking, if you break up?

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: You know, I think it's an interesting question.