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Jeb Bush Answering Questions About His Presidential Brother; Michelle Obama Tells Tuskegee University Graduates About Her Challenges As First Lady; Ex-NFL Star Aaron Hernandez Faces New Charges Of Witness Intimidation; North Korea Tests Nuclear Weapons. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired May 11, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00] MARTIN CHULOV, MIDDLE EAST CORRESPONDENT, THE GUARDIAN: I don't want to give up his identity. But the sourcing was accurate as far as we're concerned, and we certainly wouldn't have published this had we any doubts.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Final question, the fact the U.S. has put the bounty on these heads of these four ISIS leaders, how could, knowing if, you know, if your source is absolutely correct that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is in fact injured, how could it's help the U.S. fighting ISIS?

CHULOV: Well, Baghdadi has been, I guess, the (INAUDIBLE). He is more than figure head. He's the guy the lead this organization and he transformed it into basically a group of gangsters who have done quite well into counter insurgency against the Americans in 2003 onwards into something which really does threaten the unitary borders of the modern Middle East.

Taking him out would, I guess, remove the mantle of the potency from him. It would show that he is vulnerable and so, too, is the organization. The U.S. air strikes have taken out 18 of the top-line 43 ISIS leaders. If they were able to claim Baghdadi, that would be a significant moral victory for them.

BALDWIN: Martin Chulov in London with me from "the Guardian," thank you so much, sir. I appreciate your time.

And do not miss "Blindsided," how ISIS shook the world, deep inside the terror machine. Fareed Zakaria reports tonight 9:00 p.m. eastern and pacific right here on CNN.

Coming up, Jeb Bush answering a lot of questions lately about his brother, former president George W. Bush. What Jeb Bush said about the U.S. invasion of Iraq and whether he would have backed it if he had been a commander in-chief. That's next.

Plus, the first lady really incredibly candid here at in the commencement ceremony. Her views on the role race and discrimination played for her during that first campaign and the first couple of years in the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [15:31:19] BALDWIN: Surprising comments from potential Republican presidential hopeful Jeb Bush. He's reportedly told an interviewer that if he had the same information his brother had back in 2003 that, yes, he would have made the same decision to invade Iraq.

Let me go to my colleague Jake Tapper, host of "the LEAD." And we were just talking about Jeb Bush making a different reference to George W. Bush last week. And now we have this. It seems like he tried to finesse the Iraq war issue, but now no more.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, his answer is an honest answer. He also said that, keep in mind, that's what Hillary Clinton did. And remember, if you go back and look at the war resolution, it was 77-23, 29 democratic senators, including Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, voted for war in Iraq. I think a better question might be, and I'm hoping Jeb Bush isn't watching because some day I'm going to interview him and I will ask this question --

BALDWIN: Which would be what?

TAPPER: Not how would you have voted back then, because, you know, the vast majority of Washington, D.C., was caught up in the drum beat of war. The question is, what lessons can we learn from what went wrong in that war, whether it's the intelligence or the planning after the war, what do we now know as a country, what do leaders know because of the mistakes made during that time? That's the question worth asking not only to Jeb Bush but to Hillary Clinton and if Joe Biden throws his hat into the ring, him as well.

BALDWIN: What about -- so that's on the to-do, hopefully, list in interviewing Jeb Bush. But on the list of people you will be interviewing, as far as tomorrow, Chris Christie.

TAPPER: Well, maybe I should ask him the same question. But yes, I will be going up to New Hampshire where Chris Christie is trying to bring back to life his hopes to be president. He's not yet declared that he will be a candidate. But he's trying to do something like what John McCain did in 2008 after he was written off for dead. Go to New Hampshire, do a million town hall meetings, make the voters of New Hampshire, the Republicans and independents there, convinced that you are candid, that you have leadership that the others don't, and bring it back to life. And he is attempting to do that, obviously slightly different circumstances than Senator John McCain, but the same basic template.

BALDWIN: All right. Tapper, we'll look for it and see you at the top of the hour, my friend. Thank you very much.

TAPPER: Thanks, Brooke. Talk to you soon.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Next, the first lady opening up about race. Michelle Obama telling Tuskegee University graduates that she was held to a different standard during the first presidential election.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:43:04] BALDWIN: First lady Michelle Obama says no doubt she has been held to a different standard as the first African-American first lady while speaking to graduates at the historically black Tuskegee University in Alabama. The first lady talked candidly about her struggles and insecurities during her husband's first campaign to become president of the United States. She referenced this controversial July 2008 cover of "the New Yorker." It depicted her with a huge afro and a machine gun. And she says, her words, it knocked her back a bit and made her wonder how people were perceiving her.

The first lady also brought up this fist bump during one of her husband's primary wins. Critics called it a terrorist fist jab. So she talked to these graduates and she told them that ultimately she had to learn how to block out that noise and be true to herself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Back in those days, I had a lot of sleepless nights worrying about what people thought of me, wondering if I might be hurting my husband's chances of winning his election, fearing how my girls would feel if they found out what some people were saying about their mom. But eventually, I realized that if I wanted to keep my sanity and not let others define me, there was only one thing I could do, and that was to have faith in God's plan for me. I had to ignore all of the noise and be true to myself, and the rest would work itself out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I have cultural critic and writer Michaela Angela Davis next to me.

Nice to see you, my lovely friend.

MICHAELA ANGELA DAVIS, CULTURAL CRITIC/WRITER: Good to see you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Is this the most candid we have seen Michelle Obama on race?

DAVIS: I feel so. And thank you for showing that clip. Because I think there's something in there universally that we can all hear.

[15:45:02]BALDWIN: Every single one of us.

DAVIS: Just be yourself because people will come at you, particularly if you have any position on anything. And also, thank you for cutting to seeing all those black scholars.

BALDWIN: Phenomenal University.

DAVIS: One of the things she spoke to was the rest of the world doesn't see you in caps and gowns, right? They see you in this other way. But I think that because she's been more in this position and there are no more elections to win, she's getting more and more candid along with her husband, but also she was talking to the young black future, right?

So I think in terms of how she gets more open, it really depends on the audience. Also, when she was on "black girls rock," she was very open because she was talking to young black girls. So I think, yes, they're getting more open, but also they're talking to their people and their community. And so, any group of people tend to be maybe more truthful. And young people know when you're trying to --

BALDWIN: They'll call you out on it.

DAVIS: Yes.

BALDWIN: Yes, they will.

DAVIS: Real recognize real.

BALDWIN: They will.

DAVIS: So I think all of that played into this very layered speech that she gave.

BALDWIN: You know what I wonder, and we don't have the answer to this, but as she's grown and sort of weathered all these years in a wonderful way and not ugly, as she alluded to all these years, to have these daughters also growing up there, becoming women at the White House, don't you want like a window -- we talk so much about parents talking to the young people. What would she be telling these girls?

DAVIS: Well, you know, they seem so poised and kind of regular at the same time, as regular as you can be.

BALDWIN: Living at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

DAVIS: That's right. But one of the most profound things that I think that Michelle Obama has ever said is that she owned her own happiness.

BALDWIN: What does that mean?

DAVIS: That's independent of her husband. That's independent of the media. That's independent of anyone outside of herself. And I think that clip spoke to that again, to be true to yourself and not to say that it's going to be all Polyanna (ph) and people aren't going to come for you and that people aren't going to have assumptions about you.

She spoke to the very complex assumption that black kids are either invisible or targets, right? You're either ignored for a job because of your name. You know, that recent study came out. Or you're looked at as a threat. And that's a very complicated arena to be in. Either you're invisible -- she talked about invisibility a lot, which I thought was very profound. But also this idea that a cab might go by you, or you're going to get stopped on your own or you might be called out as the help.

BALDWIN: But the fact she has been so candid at Tuskegee over the weekend, because she wasn't always that way. There was the book "The Obamas" that came out about the first family. And she has said at the time she was tired of people trying to paint her as quote/unquote "an angry black woman."

DAVIS: Well, you know, that's joke (ph) we're used to, right? We see that through the housewife franchise. We see that, and you know, I spoke this last week, about what clip we played over and over again of what women in Baltimore or what we see in McDonald's. This idea of angry black woman is something that I think the collective imagination is used to.

So they were trying to figure her out. They didn't -- no one expected a Michelle Obama. They weren't prepared. So they looked to their old constructs. And she just started breaking them down. So now we have this new standard that she's helped create for everyone that Claire Huxtable was not a caricature, like you can be a Michelle Obama.

BALDWIN: Yes. And I'm with you on the shot of the fine young people in the caps and gowns as well.

Michael Angela Davis, thank you very much.

DAVIS: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Next, North Korea releasing this photo of Kim Jong-Un standing on a ship as a missile is allegedly fired, you'll see it here, there you go from a submarine. How real is that threat from North Korea?

Plus, breaking news involved Aaron Hernandez. The former NFL star just recently convicted of first-degree murder, now being charged with intimidating a witness. Stand by for those details. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:00] BALDWIN: Breaking now, convicted murder and ex-NFL star Aaron Hernandez is facing new charges in connection with another shooting he will soon stand trial for.

I got Susan Candiotti who was in Massachusetts for a long, long time covering the initial trial and this double homicide, is what's upcoming. And so, what is this witness intimidation?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, this is a key witness who will, is expected to testify at this upcoming double murder trial that Hernandez will be facing charges on very shortly. And now, we find out that the guy who was with him that night, the night of the double murder, who's going to be testifying against him, was shot by Hernandez in the face. That part we already knew. Now Hernandez is being charged with witness intimidation for shooting him in the face because -- and this is the new part -- because Hernandez allegedly mentioned the double shooting to him that had happened months and months earlier than the double murder shooting.

So now, we are given a reason for why were Alexander Bradley was shot in the face by Aaron Hernandez. At least Hernandez before now had not been charged with shooting Alexander Bradley in the face, but Bradley had sued him in a federal civil lawsuit in Florida. All of it happened in Florida.

It's a -- there are a lot of twists and turns to this case, but now we're getting more clarity on motive, and perhaps what led Aaron Hernandez to allegedly shoot Alexander Bradley in the face, and why he shot these two men in a bar. Prosecutors have said it was over something as minor as a spilled drink, that Hernandez had allegedly stalked these guys after one bumped into him on the dance floor and spilled the drink. So just when you think you've heard everything about Aaron Hernandez.

BALDWIN: You haven't.

CANDIOTTI: Now this.

BALDWIN: Susan Candiotti. Thank you.

So in North Korea, and really, it is the pictures that tell the story here. I want to share some pictures from the country's state media showing what they call the successful launch of a quote/unquote "underwater ballistic missiles," one of several apparently fired from a submarine.

North Korea's leader Kim Jong-Un was reportedly there and watched the test. Grab those binoculars and watched it himself from the bow of a boat. Although, it is not known what if any doctrine went into these photos we are sharing with you.

Let me bring in Joe Cirincione, president of Ploughshares Fund, a global security foundation. He is the author of "Nuclear Nightmares securing the world before it's too late." And he is also a member of secretary of state John Kerry's international security advisory board which has held briefings on the Iran nuke deal.

Joe, nice to see you.

JOE CIRINCIONE, PRESIDENT, PLOUGHSHARES FUND: Hi. Nice to see you, Brooke.

CIRINCIONE: You know, I was reading -- I was wrapped by all the details because there are these fears over what could be happening and the line that stuck out to me, you were essentially saying, might as well try to FedEx these missiles to the United States if that's what the goal is. Is that what you think?

CIRINCIONE: Well, the bad news is that they've tested this kind of technology at all. It is an advanced technology, not many countries can do this, caused a little bit by surprise. The good news is that at they are at the very beginning stages of these tests. This is 1970s technology. The submarine is based on a soviet sub from the '70s. The missile itself based and a soviet missile in the '70s, and this was just a first test, just ejecting from the sub. This missile went about 100 yards. But even if it was fully operational, the missile can only fly 1,500

miles. So the sub would have to cross the Pacific Ocean to get it within range of the United States. That would take anywhere from two to three months. They would be much better off FedEx-ing the warhead to the United States. That would only take a couple of days.

BALDWIN: OK. Not mincing words with me at all, Joe Cirincione, in terms of how you feel about this. But let me ask you, you know, stick with this candor. You look at these photos, and not that, you know, you think there's possibly any doctoring them, but you know, one of them in which you see Kim Jong-Un, I mean, he's like smoking and laughing, and -- what are we looking at?

CIRINCIONE: Well, this was a good day for him. This was quite a little coup. He grabbed international attention from this, and at first we suspected the photos were doctored, but then as more were released and we could look at them, it's plausible that he really was there and that the details seem to be real in these photos.

So he's very proud. He's showing off a brand new technology that nobody thought he could have. I mean, the significance is, if North Korea could perfect this technology, this is what's called a second strike capability. He would have a missile that could be launched from a submarine. It would be hard to detect the submarine before the launch. So it would be harder to take it out. So he could have a threat to retaliate, should we or the South Koreans or anybody else attack him. That's why he's so proud. He's showing off his new military technology.

But here's one bit of good news. We don't think he has a nuclear warhead yet that can fit on this missile. He's years away from that.

BALDWIN: Don't they have long-term capabilities of miniaturizing one?

CIRINCIONE: That's what they're working on and they have made some progress as of late, but there's still a long way from that, having come close to testing a re-entry vehicle, for example. It's one thing to put a missile up. It's actually much harder to bring it back down, surviving the heat and vibration of the re-entry. They haven't tested anything like a re-entry vehicle yet. And we don't believe that the nuclear test they have conducted tested a warhead small enough to be able to fit inside a missile and survive those kinds of tests, stresses and the tests. It took us years to develop that technology. North Korea, still significantly far behind.

BALDWIN: In a final 40 seconds I have with you, just as we're talking about these kinds of threats, who do you think has the bigger potential nuke threat? Would it be North Korea? I know we're sitting, the U.S. is sitting around the negotiating table with Iran, but would it be Iran?

CIRINCIONE: Brooke, there is no question. North Korea actually has nuclear weapons. We believe they have enough materiel for about six, maybe more, and they've actually tested three of them. Iran is still, even if Iran went from this standing start right now all-out, it would take them at least a year to build their first nuclear weapon. So North Korea at this point is the bigger threat. Iran is the bigger

promise, the bigger hope that we can stop Iran from it gets close to North Korea's capability.

BALDWIN: All right. Joe Cirincione, President of Plowshares Fund, author of "nuclear nightmare: securing the world before it is too late," thank you so much, sir, for joining me this Monday. I really appreciate it.

And I appreciate you for tuning in as well.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. See you back here tomorrow. In the meantime, "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts now.