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U.S. Special Forces Kill Top ISIS Commander; NTSB: Object May Have Struck Amtrak Train; ; Jeb Bush Tries to put Iraq Question to Rest; Hillary Clinton's Quiet Campaign; Ominous Weather in Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired May 16, 2015 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[17:00:52] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone, you're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow. Joining you from New York, it is 5:00 here on the East Coast. And we begin with breaking news. We are getting dramatic new details about a U.S. special operations mission that took down a top ISIS commander deep inside Syria.

A U.S. official now telling us here on CNN that troops with the armies Delta Force moved into the area on Black Hawk helicopters. The fire fight broke out almost immediately on the ground between them and ISIS fighters who were using women and children as human shields. U.S. troops were on a mission to capture ISIS leader Abu Sayyaf, described by one U.S. official as someone with possibly deep knowledge of the capture and movement of ISIS hostages. However, Sayyaf fought back, he was killed during hand to hand combat with coalition troops. His wife was also captured, she is being interrogated by about any potential knowledge of ISIS hostages.

Let's get straight to the Pentagon, our correspondent Barbara Starr who broke this story joins me now. Barbara, officials say that they were able to seize multiple computers, mobile phones, communication devices in this raid and it was not intended to be a raid that killed him but rather captured Sayyaf. What do they hope to find?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right, Poppy, this raid was all about intelligence gathering. Hoping to capture both of them alive and interrogate them for any intelligence they would have. The wife, a lot of sense, indication she may know about hostage taking. Him as well, but the sense they have of him, the assessment on him is that he was involved in the oil and gas operations, but also increasingly had taken a role in ISIS command and control in planning and operations. They had been in contact with the leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi so they want to look at all the electronic gear, all the communications gear that the troops got before they left that area, go through it all, see what they can learn -- Poppy.

HARLOW: I think it's really important to focus, Barbara, on what sort of knowledge his wife, who they do have Umm Sayyaf, they do have her and the interrogating her. How much knowledge she might have about the hostages. Give us a sense of what they're hoping they can glean from her and also if you could Barbara, can you tell us some of the Americans and Europeans still being held hostage by ISIS. STARR: Well, publicly, I don't believe there's any indication that

any additional Americans are being held. If there are, that has not come to light. There's a British man of course being held John Cantile. He's appeared in a number of ISIS videos speaking, obviously, believed to be under some level of duress because he is in their captivity.

Let's keep in mind, ISIS has untold perhaps numbers of hostages from the region, people who live in that region, live in those countries that they capture and abuse terribly. What she might know about all of that the U.S. wants to find out of course, but they also want to find out if she, her husband or any of the information they have might lead them to any other tips, any other information about what happened when American hostages were being held by ISIS. It's a very delicate business. American families may be watching this. There's no information yet about specifically what they knew, but there is an assessment, if you will, that these people may have known a good deal about the fate of at least some of the American hostages.

HARLOW: This green light for this mission came directly from President Obama. And I believe that part of the reason, right Barbara, that he did approve this was that there was very little risk for civilian casualties, is that right?

STARR: Well, the feeling that the military had when they went to the President is that they could deal with it. You know, they talked to the President, any president always will ask civilians in the area, civilian casualties, how are you going to handle it, what are you going to do? And so clearly, they gave him enough reassurance that they could deal with it. What we're learning now is when the Delta Force commandos got to their target site, it was heavily defended by ISIS fighters, perhaps a dozen or more of them killed. A number of women and children there, we are told officially by our sources none of the women or children were hurt. We cannot independently confirm that of course, and that they were able to sort of separate out, go after the targets, the fighters that they wanted to go after who were shooting at them, but do everything they could to make sure those women and children did not get hurt -- Poppy.

[17:05:44] HARLOW: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon who broke this story first this morning. Barbara, thank you. Let's talk about the developments, what we know so far and what we're still trying to find out with Michael Weiss, CNN contributor and co-author of the book "ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror." Thanks for being here, Michael.

MICHAEL WEISS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Sure.

HARLOW: You are doubtful that this mission was intended to kill or to capture rather Abu Sayyaf. You just don't think he's a big enough target.

WEISS: Well, he might have been one among other targets or many targets. The story I have heard from an Iraqi specialist who covers ISIS and indeed briefs the CIA and U.S. intelligence was that Abu Sayyaf is quite close to Abu Mohammed al-Adnani, that is the official spokesperson for ISIS. Also said to be one of the top contenders to take over as key left in the event of that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is incapacitated or killed. It would make more sense to me to send in a Delta Force mission, risk American lives, boots on the ground to capture somebody or kill somebody of Adnani stature.

That said, you know, I've been talking to military intelligence officials today who say, actually look, you know, mid-level guys, they tend to rank him a little big lower than what the Pentagon is ranking him, meaning Abu Sayyaf, mid-level guys are valuable because of the intelligence that they have on them.

So indeed, if Abu Sayyaf's role in the financing of ISIS' operations particularly the oil economy is as profound and senior as we're told it was, he will have on him, you know, gigabytes of data to show how they get their money and also what the alternative revenue streams have been in the last several months since the oil economy or the oil infrastructure rather has been degraded through coalition airstrikes. So yes, the result of this will lead to more kills and captures of other possibly even higher ISIS officials.

HARLOW: Right. He has been equated to the CFO, right? The money man, the main money man for ISIS who oversaw the sale of oil on the black market from these oil fields that they took over, but at the same time in February the Pentagon came out and sais look, ISIS isn't making as much money off of selling this oil anymore, and this isn't a driver of the funding for ISIS as much as it was. So does that play into the significance of this or lack of significance?

WEISS: Yes. And I would add to that two weeks ago that the U.S. government came out with a list of the top ten guys in ISIS with bounties on their heads. He wasn't one of them. So, if the chief financial officer of the organization isn't said by the U.S. government to be somebody worthy of, you know, millions of dollars worth of a bounty for his capture, that also puts a little damper on that. I mean, it's great turn of phrase -- ISIS to the extent to which it's true or operationally it matters as much within the organization. I'm a little --

HARLOW: At the same time though, doesn't it show, I mean, first of all, look how much our men and women in the U.S. forces risked in this. Right? Our thanks to them for this, but doesn't it also show the ability to carry out what looks like a textbook sort of perfect Delta Force operation?

WEISS: Oh, yes, I mean, look, and this isn't the first time by the way that we have gone into Syria. And I don't just mean that the abortive and unsuccessful attempt to rescue James Foley and other hostages. In 2008, JSOC, the Joint Special Operations Command which oversaw this raid went into Deir Ezzor (ph), the same province as Abu Sayyaf's killing to try and capture or kill Abu Ghadiya, Abu Ghadiya was a guy on the border of Syria and Iraq hosted with the -- of the Syrian government to run jihadist from Syria into Iraq who then went out to blew up American soldiers. So, we have done this before actually in this part of the country. It's not the first time. So, these guys are very well trained, they know what they are doing.

HARLOW: And we're able to get in and out and we're able to get what could be very valuable information in those laptop computers.

WEISS: Absolutely, yes.

HARLOW: Et cetera. Michael Weiss, thanks so much, I appreciate it.

WEISS: Yep.

HARLOW: We're going to keep following this story throughout the evening.

Also we're going to talk about the severe weather across multiple states. Tornado warnings in effect, you see the ominous skies in Texas and also Oklahoma. We're going to bring a report on that, straight ahead.

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[17:12:46] HARLOW: We're following two new developments in the deadly Amtrak crash investigation. The NTSB is looking into reports that the train that derailed along with two other trains on that same corridor, that same night were all struck by objects. Also Amtrak is being ordered to make immediate safety train changes along that route.

Our Rene Marsh is live for us in Philadelphia. Rene, it's remarkable when you look at those three images, we can pull them up all together. Three different trains, three different windshields, all cracked in a similar way. What are we learning about what happened that night?

RENE MARSH, CNN GOVERNMENT REGULATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, you know, this new information that's coming from this assistant conductor that was on board Amtrak train 188 is really deepening the mystery here as far as what caused this deadly derailment. But let's reset. We know that the septa train just minutes before the derailment reported that its windshield had been struck or perhaps shot at. We just obtained some audio as police responded to that incident involving that septa train. Take a listen.

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UNIDENTIFIED MAN: An unknown object may -- with that train shattering the windshield. We do not have an update on any injuries. (INAUDIBLE) But it is a train that has had a foreign object in contact shattering the windshield of the train --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARSH: Okay, so after all of that played out with that septa train just minutes later, Amtrak 188 jumped the tracks. That's the time line of events. So this assistant conductor, who spoke with NTSB investigators just yesterday, said that while the train was traveling, Amtrak train 188, she overheard that engineer report that the windshield had been struck. And she also believed she heard the engineer of the Amtrak train saying the same thing happened to him. So now the FBI has been called in. They are analyzing the windshield of this Amtrak train. They are specifically looking at a circular shatter pattern. It will undergo lots of lab analysis. They will be looking to determine if something did indeed strike Amtrak's windshield and perhaps what angle it came from, but as you pointed out off the top, Poppy, if this is true, if Amtrak train 188 was also struck, that means three trains in the same vicinity within minutes of each other being struck by some object.

HARLOW: Right. And I know they just this afternoon the federal railroad administration has ordered Amtrak to improve its safety technology on the trains and to do so immediately. What's going to change?

MARSH: Right, so the federal railroad administration made this order just a short time ago. It involves three orders aimed at Amtrak and specifically the northeast corridor. They are ordering number one that they install technology that would control train speed on the tracks so that you don't have an issue of what we saw here where there's no technology in place to slow a speeding train down. They also ordered that Amtrak do a risk assessment of all of the curves along the northeast corridor. And lastly, they instructed Amtrak to increase speed limit signage.

So essentially putting it very clear language what is the speed limit along the northeast corridor. We do know if Amtrak refuses to do this, they could be subject to civil penalties. We did hear from Amtrak and in a statement in part they essentially said that they plan on implementing these changes -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Rene Marsh, thank you so much, appreciate it.

Coming up next, we'll going to talk about the verdict, the jury unanimously deciding that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev should be put to death for the crimes that he committed at the Boston marathon murdering three people, injuring more than 200 others. But a long and painful appeals process could be ahead. We'll talk about it, next.

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[17:20:42] HARLOW: The jury has handed down a verdict. Twenty one- year-old Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is sentenced to death for his role in the Boston marathon bombing. A federal jury, a seven women and five men unanimously voted for the death penalty. Tsarnaev's attorney are expected to appeal that sentence.

Let's talk about it with CNN legal analyst Mel Robbins. Mel, look, when you're looking at an appeal, how quickly do they have to file that?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR AND LEGAL ANALYST: Well, actually, the appeal in a death penalty case is automatic. It's automatically filed because of the high stakes and one other point that a lot of people don't realize is that while his attorneys are going to be doing presentencing motions and a lot of legal stuff to be taken care of before his sentence, on the appeal, he'll get a brand new team of attorneys that specialize in death penalty appeals. The reason being you deserve a fresh, he may not deserve it, but you know, under the law you deserve fresh eyes to review the case. And so that's what will happen. HARLOW: When you look at this, this verdict marks the first time in

the post 9/11 era that federal prosecutors have won the death penalty in a terrorism case. What do you think swayed the jury most?

ROBBINS: I know exactly what swayed the jury most and let me lay it out for you. There were 17 counts, Poppy, that carried the death penalty as a possible sentence. They found him guilty for the death penalty on six of those. What is in common about all six of the ones? They all pertain to the eight-year-old Martin Richard, who was standing just feet away from Dzhokhar Tsarnaev when he put his backpack down behind the family. And if you read the closing arguments, one of the most riveting moments during the closing arguments was a moment when the prosecutor put up the photo of Dzhokhar, showed how close he was to Martin Richards' family and then the prosecutor Poppy went silent.

He went silent in that courtroom. You could hear a pin drop for 20 seconds. And when he finally started speaking again. He said Dzhokhar stood behind Martin Richard's family 12 times longer than I stood here quiet before you. He knew exactly what he was doing. And so, when I see the verdict return and they have sentenced him to death on all six counts pertaining to that young boy, I say in my gut, that's what swayed them. That's what tipped the scales, and of course, the prosecution also closed with just tremendous video and photographic evidence that put those jurors right at the scene of the carnage, the horror of this terrorist attack -- Poppy.

HARLOW: But Mel, it is the family, the parents of that little boy Martin Richard who wrote that op-ed in "The Boston Globe" saying they did not want to see the death penalty handed down because of the painful, painful years of appeals that it would bring.

ROBBINS: Poppy, that is exactly the question that so many Bostonians are talking about. And so, for those that don't know what we're talking about, it's Martin Richards' family that basically said in a huge opinion piece that went viral that they don't want the death penalty because they don't want to be dragged into court for these appeals, they don't want him keep appearing in the news. They want to be able to move on. Well, keep in mind the jury was not allowed to read any media. They probably weren't even aware that that's what Martin Richards' family wanted and the truth is, as much as I feel a sense of heaviness about the fact that this verdict is not what they wanted, they weren't the only victims. And Boston is pretty divided. I mean, there are people that really agree with this and then there are people like me that think that this is the easy way out and I would have rather seen him rot away and be forgotten -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Mel Robbins, thank you so much, appreciate it.

ROBBINS: Thanks to you.

HARLOW: Coming up, a U.S. Delta Force operation takes out a top ISIS leader. They have also captured his wife. They are interrogating her and she could have crucial information about ISIS hostages. We'll have details about that operation, next.

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[17:29:23] HARLOW: Breaking news here on CNN, a United States special operations force raided a terrorist base in Eastern Syria, killed about a dozen ISIS fighters including a top ISIS commander. That commander was a Tunisian who U.S. government officials say was in charge of the group's oil and gas operations, basically the master mind of how ISIS finances himself. Here is what we know about him. This is where it happened, about half way between the ISIS stronghold of Raqqa in Syria and the Iraqi border. Military sources telling CNN about two dozen special operations troops went in by helicopter intending to capture Abu Sayyaf, instead he resisted. A fire fight broke out. He was killed.

Our Sunlen Serfaty is at the White House with more.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Poppy, this was a call made directly by President Obama, signing off on this mission. We're told, according to the National Security Council, that the decision was made after a unanimous recommendation from his national security team after they had developed significant intelligence that this mission could be carried out successfully.

What senior administration officials say is the purpose of the mission was to capture Sayyaf, but he was killed after he engaged with U.S. forces on the ground in Syria. A White House official says President Obama was kept briefed by his national security team as this mission was carried out.

And we're already starting to get some reaction from Capitol Hill. Speaker of the House John Boehner said that he called today's mission a good move, but he also noted that ISIS right now is bringing the fight to the Iraqi city of Ramadi. Saying, quote, "I remain gravely concerned by ISIL's assault on Ramadi that threatens the stability and sovereignty of Iraq, which is vital to America's interests."

And Representative Adam Schiff, a top Democrat on the House Intel Committee, also poured a little cold water on the significance of this it mission saying in a statement released today, quote, "While Sayyaf was a significant figure, it is a setback for ISIS, we should be under no illusion about the long-term impacts of any particular operation. This terror group, like al Qaeda, has proven adept at replacing commanders and we need to keep up the pressure on its leadership and financing." And he called for more congressional briefings this week, which will be especially important as this debate over the risk versus the reward of this mission is evaluated -- Poppy?

HARLOW: Sunlen, thank you very much.

You're going to want to watch this, "Blindsided: How ISIS Shook the World." Fareed Zakaria's special report, this special report on Sunday here on CNN.

We're keeping a close eye on weather. Tornado watches right now in Oklahoma and Texas. More on that later this hour.

Also to presidential politics, where Jeb Bush is in Iowa trying to put aside the Iraq war discussion that dogged him all week. We'll talk about it, next.

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[17:36:02] HARLOW: Presidential politics, Jeb Bush, and the week he wishes he could do over. Today, he's in Iowa making the rounds, trying to move on after several days of trying to explain a stumble he made many an interview about the Iraq War. He told an interviewer he would have invaded Iraq in 2003 like his brother. Later, he said he misunderstood the question. Then he held a town hall and didn't address it directly. And then on Thursday, he tackled it head on and said, no, he would not have invaded Iraq if he knew then what he knows now.

Let's bring in our political commentators to talk about it, Ben Ferguson, host of the "Ben Ferguson Show"; and Marc Lamont Hill, a professor at Morehouse College.

Thank you, guys, for being here.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Ben, let's start with you.

Jeb Bush had a long time, years in fact, to get ready for that question. His team even said that they have been practicing it. Why do you think he fumbled?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think he honestly thought he was answering a question about would he have done his brother did at the time. That's why he said Hillary Clinton would have done the same thing. And for him, he probably was trying to be preemptive. A lot of people do that in interviews. Sometimes they are too comfortable when doing it and didn't pay attention. That's really all it was. And the main thing is it did not hurt him with many Republicans or conservatives because when they saw his answer, saying Hillary Clinton would have done the same thing, they obviously realized he thought he was answering a question different than how it was posed to him. I think others are making a bigger deal out of it. It's not going to hurt his campaign. I don't think it's going to hurt his chances in the primary at all. I don't think it hurt his chances with GOP voters.

HARLOW: Marc, when you talk about Jeb Bush, he talks a lot about his family. I want you to listen to some of what he said on Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH, (R), FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: My brothers and sister are different than me, but I'm not going to go out of my way to say that my brother did this wrong or my dad did this wrong. It's not going to happen. I have a hard time with that. I love my family a lot.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Marc, do you think family loyalty is going to be a tough hurdle for Jeb Bush?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. And by the way, that was the wrong answer. I mean, he shouldn't go out of his way to criticize his brother, but it's not about going out of your way to criticize the brother, but it's criticizing the president. That's the issue here. If let's say hypothetically your brother engineered the biggest unforced foreign policy era in American history, like a war in Iraq, for example, you should be prepared to answer that question. And I think he was prepared. I agree with Ben. He just heard something different. He probably had a prepped answer for a different question. But what concerns me ism in the days after the mistake, an honest mistake, he didn't have a clear and concise answer. He was trying to walk that tight rope of saying, yes, Iraq was bad, and everybody agrees with it but, at the same time, not wanting to criticize his brother. He points out what works. He points out that the world is better without Saddam Hussein. He starts to echo Bush- era arguments and it raises questions about whether or not he can balance those two things.

HARLOW: But, Ben, do you think perhaps he's being held to a higher standard than other Republican candidates or potential candidates in terms of addressing the Iraq war and his brothers' actions and, if so is, that really fair?

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Not only is he being held to a higher standard, but even than to Hillary Clinton on things that she is separating herself from, from her own husband's policies when he was president. There are several things --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Let me finish. People don't force her to denounce Bill Clinton and don't ask don't tell is a perfect example of this, his foreign policy in the Middle East, other examples of this. So I think that people are hoping that there's going to be some Jeb Bush, W. war, on issues of Iraq and foreign policies in general. And Jeb's point is, look, there's not going to be a big point here. Yes, I'm my own man but he's also my own brother. Most voters on the Republican side, which is what really matters to him, are going to like that and respect him more for doing that.

HARLOW: Marc?

[17:40:25] LAMONT HILL: First, I hope Jeb Bush cares about all citizens and all voters.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Let's be real.

LAMONT HILL: But it's not a higher standard that he's being held to. In 2008, every person on the left and the right was asked to denounce George bush. Whether it was John McCain or Huckabee, they all responded. It's not that he's being asked to do something different. The difference to holding Hillary Clinton to what her husband did as president, and Jeb Bush to what his brother did as president, there are moments where Jeb Bush says, yes, I have listened to or I will listen to George Bush as a policy adviser. If you say George Bush is your policy adviser, I'm going to ask you what you think --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: let me finish.

FERGUSON: Let's deal with Hillary Clinton.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: Let me finish.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: I'll deal with it after I finish talking.

Hillary Clinton, Jeb Bush connected himself to George Bush so it's reasonable to ask what you think about it. Similarly, there were moments in domestic policy where Hillary Clinton tied herself to Bill Clinton and it's reasonable to ask Hillary that. That's why when she gave the criminal speech, she said three-strikes didn't work, the crime bill didn't work and she pushed away from Clinton. That's a reasonable question for Hillary.

FERGUSON: I think that's a lot of what Jeb has done on some issues. I just think that people want a fight here and they are not going to get it. The same way Hillary Clinton is not going to denounce her husband on "Don't Ask Don't Tell" in a direct way where she says Bill Clinton was wrong and he shouldn't have done that.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: You're not expecting that from her.

LAMONT HILL: I am. I am. I'm expecting her to say three-strikes doesn't work. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was a bad idea. Crime bill was a bad idea.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: I would love to see it happen, but you know it's not going to.

LAMONT HILL: That's not the question. You said I didn't expect it from her. I'm holding Hillary Clinton to the fire. Not because it's her husband, but because he was a Democratic president that she stood next to. I want her to do the same with Barack Obama. I want to know whether it was Obama's mission and where it was her ideas. She's going to run from all the bad news, but I need to hold everybody accountable. Not just Jeb or Hillary but everybody.

HARLOW: Perfect segue for the next block. We're going to talk about this. Jeb Bush, not running for president yesterday, but he is in Iowa. So where is Hillary Clinton? Why isn't she taking more questions from reporters? We'll talk about it next.

But first this. We want to introduce you to this week's "CNN Hero," Robert Lee. He quit his job to fight food waste and hunger in America. Here's how he did it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT LEE, CNN HERO: A club I was involved with in college brought leftover dining hall food from campus to the homeless shelter. The concept could be applied outside the borders of NYU.