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ISIS Takes Key Iraqi City of Ramadi; Hacker: I Took Over Airliner Engine Controls; A New "Iraq Question" Stumble; Letterman Signs Off One Last Time; Interview with Mayor William Bell; Political Prisoner in Venezuela Calls for World's Attention. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired May 17, 2015 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:00:22] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Six p.m. Eastern, I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

We begin this evening in Iraq, where there is breaking news in the fight against ISIS. The terror group gaining its biggest victory so far this year, seizing control of the key city of Ramadi, that is just 65 miles from Baghdad. Look at the map. You see what I'm talking about. So, close to Baghdad.

The militants beginning a major push into the city this morning, setting off a series of car bombs. The explosion sent Iraqi security forces racing from the city. However, spokesperson for the governor of Anbar province, biggest province in Iraq says there are still pockets of resistance.

Joining me now to talk about it, because Ramadi is so critical, is former CIA operative, Bob Baer.

Bob, when we look at Ramadi, let's first set the scene and explain to people why it's so significant, this just afternoon, basically everyone on the ground is saying Iraqi security forces have completely lost this city.

BOB BAER, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE: Well, Poppy, it's really important. Number one is it's the capital of al Anbar province. Very important for ISIS. It's very important for the government. It controls the road to Jordan. It's a key strategic city.

But more than that, the government has been expecting this offensive as we know for the last week. They've been sending reinforcements. They've been doing the best they can to hold the center of the city and clearly they were defeated once again like they were in June last year in Mosul.

The army is not protecting the Iraqi government.

HARLOW: You said -- sorry to interrupt, but you bring up a good point. You said it's very important to look at is right now not just as a terror group but as an extremely well-equipped, well-funded army.

BAER: Exactly. I mean, we also have to look, we have to consider that it's also fighting battles in Homs now, it took up major areas around the city today. It's attacking Fallujah as well, and it's moving on Palmyra in Syria. So, is this a general offensive? No one's describing that as that way right now, but it looks that way to me.

And you have to keep in mind that this group -- yes, it is a terrorist group, it's the so-called caliphate. It's executing and murdering a lot of people. But on the other hand, it's being run by former Iraqi officers who know what they're doing. They're fighting a classic guerilla war and if the government applies force in Tikrit, they move to Fallujah, if they send forces to Fallujah, they move them to Ramadi.

They're outmaneuvering the Iraqi government and our bombing of ISIS isn't doing much as we predicted a long time ago. It's going to take a lot more to stop the Islamic State.

HARLOW: What do you make of the fact, and if we can maybe pull that map up just to talk about the fact that they've been so coordinated. If you look at this ability to overtake Ramadi, you see it right there, 65 miles from Baghdad. And then you see Fallujah even closer to Baghdad where they've launched an offensive that's ongoing right now.

So, the coordination, and ISIS' ability to coordinate attacks on a number of big targets at the same time -- what does that tell you?

BAER: Well, they're good. They know what they're doing. They're using high-frequency radios to communicate between units. But they've got around intercepts by putting Russian speakers on the communications, so that the Baghdadi government doesn't understand it. They have encrypted e-mails. They have Wi-Fi hot spots. They have a completely disciplined force. I mean, if there are any defectors from the force, or any stragglers, they simply execute them.

There is no going back with these people, and as we saw on the attack on Ramadi, they're willing to die. They've been armoring bulldozers, driving them into targets and blowing the bulldozers up. That's a very difficult enemy to beat.

HARLOW: You spent a lot of time in this region. You're an expert in this region. Is there a way that the coalition can defeat our even at this point, Bob, contain ISIS without really changing strategy and putting boots on the ground?

BAER: I don't think there is. Today, Prime Minister Abadine is called for the Shia militias to try to take Ramadi back. But that's just going to cause worse problems. The last people you want to send into Ramadi are Shia militias, the death squads, or Iranians for that matter.

You know, we can either turn Iraq over to the Iranians or change our strategy. And, frankly, my opinion is the state of Iraq is gone and it's time to partition it. I don't see another way around it.

HARLOW: That the state of Iraq is gone. Bob Baer, thank you very much for that. It's a sobering analysis but

one we need to discuss and delve into more. Thanks, Bob.

[18:05:00] I also want to bring in Mitchell Prothero. He's a correspondent on the ground in Erbil in northern Iraq. He's a correspondent with McClatchy newspaper.

Look, you're about 235 miles away, Mitchell, from this fight. But you have unique perspective being on the ground there. Tell me about the people of Ramadi right now, are they being allowed to flee, to leave, now that ISIS has all but taken complete control?

MITCHELL PROTHERO, MCCLATCHY: No, and that's something that's been something of a change that we've noticed in this case. A few days ago, there was a statement from the leader of the Islamic State, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, in which he said any true Muslim should, you know, basically live underneath the caliphate that he and his people have developed. And we've taken that as a sign that now, they're not letting people leave areas they've taken control of.

So, for the most part, there are people trying to get out of Ramadi but Islamic State fighters are not allowing them to do so for the first part. I'm sure some refugees are trying to get out to Baghdad. Certainly, we saw hundreds if not thousands of Iraqi troops flee the area today.

But for the most part the population of Ramadi, you know, is stuck right now.

HARLOW: What does ISIS ultimately want to in Iraq, right? They've now conquered Ramadi, going after Fallujah, a number of key cities to the north. I mean, ultimately, do they actually see themselves as having the ability to set themselves up as a legitimate government, or do they expect to be under constant attack?

PROTHERO: I don't think they're mutually exclusive. From their world view, they are the legitimate government of Muslims throughout the world and they expect that this is thing that's going to put them under constant attack.

So, yes, no, they do believe this is a state -- Ramadi would be a key part of the state. If you look on a map, basically draw a triangle between Ramadi up to Deir Ezzor, Raqqa in Syria, over to Mosul, and then back down to the northern, you know, outreaches of Baghdad. That's their state, that's what they see as the beginning of a new Islamic caliphate and they fully expect the state will be at war with the west and non-Muslim believers perhaps indefinitely.

HARLOW: Mitchell Prothero joining us in Erbil, Iraq -- thanks so much, Mitchell. Appreciate it.

PROTHERO: My pleasure.

HARLOW: All right. A quick programming note. You're not going to want to miss this. "Blindsided: How ISIS Shook the World." This is a Fareed Zakaria special report tonight 7:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, only right here on CNN.

Well, a frightening claim from a known hacker. According to a federal affidavit, Chris Roberts told agents at the FBI that he's hacked into as many as 20 commercial airline flights in mid-flight while they are flying with passengers on board. He says he even forced one of the planes to climb, and that resulted in the aircraft, he says, moving laterally.

Let's go to someone who has researched this extensively, who's spoken to him, who wrote a fascinating report in "Wired" about it. Kim Zetter.

Kim, thank you for being with me.

KIM ZETTER, WIRED: Thanks for having me.

HARLOW: It's remarkable if you just dig through some of the details here, because, look, the Government Accountability Office came out with a report a few weeks ago warning about this, and saying, look, this could happen as planes get more modern, the computer systems get more, you know, they control more of the plane, if you will. Hackers can get in.

Tell me about talking to Chris Roberts, what his goal was here in doing this.

ZETTER: Well, he started researching plane avionics networks and passenger Wi-Fi networks back around 2009 and he -- he and his colleagues started by obtaining publicly available manuals, and the manuals showed the schematics for the wiring systems on these planes, on certain Boeing planes and Airbus planes. And based on that, they sort of posited this theory may might be able to transfer from the passenger Wi-Fi networks or satellite networks into the avionic networks that control navigation.

And so, what they did was then they admitted this to the FBI or Chris admitted it to the FBI that at least on 15 to 20 occasions while he was on a plane, he tapped his laptop into the passenger entertainment system, and there's a network box underneath the seats in certain planes --

HARLOW: Right.

ZETTER: -- in which he could do that. And then he was able to then jump from that entertainment network to the avionics network.

HARLOW: It's interesting because Boeing has come out -- because he said he's done this on both Boeing and Airbus planes and Boeing said, look, their entertainment system is, quote, "isolated from flight and navigation systems." So they're saying essentially you wouldn't be able to control the plane this way.

Do you believe that he was able to control the plane?

ZETTER: Well, I'm not sure that I completely follow Airbus -- or either Boeing or Airbus' statements. When I spoke with Boeing back in 2008, and this has been a problem that the Federal Aviation Administration brought up way back then.

[18:10:00] And Boeing at that time told me that they had found a solution to separate the networks, but they said that with a combination of physically separating parts of the network and then in some cases only separating them with a software firewall.

And in the security community, a software firewall is known not to be sufficient to separate a noncritical network from a critical network. Software firewalls can be misconfigured and they can also have some vulnerabilities that would allow someone to penetrate through them.

So, I'm not really quite confident in Boeing's statement so far that they sufficiently separated the networks. So, as far as Chris says, you know, he says he was able -- what he told me was that he was able to at least observe the data traffic going through the avionics network and what the FBI reports is that he actually told them that he was actually able to introduce data to that network.

HARLOW: Look, I want to ask you about the Wi-Fi because you would think that you wouldn't be able to hack in through the typical Wi-Fi, the Gogo Internet that we log into when we're passengers on a plane. But, are there seriously no sort of better firewalls or controls around the Wi-Fi on a plane for what controls the plane?

ZETTER: Well, that's the question that he's raising. I mean, he's shown that he got in through this -- this wasn't the Wi-Fi. This was sort of the entertainment which is not specifically Wi-Fi, but it encompasses, for instance, the video and audio that the passengers can get at their seats. He says that that was set up on the planes that he traveled on with default password. And that those default credentials are in the manuals that are publicly available.

So, it sounds like there are a lot of questions about sort of how these systems have been installed, how they've been secured. If there are problems with this entertainment network, then presumably there are problems with Wi-Fi networks on all planes.

HARLOW: Right.

ZETTER: Or on a large number of planes. And I think that the questions that have been raised are sufficient that perhaps there should be a congressional hearing or something to examine this more fully.

HARLOW: I think that's a great idea. I think there absolutely should be, considering all we go through. And security-wise, just to get on a plane, I think they should be looking at this very closely.

Kim, thanks so much. Appreciate it. If you haven't read Kim's piece in "Wired" about this, you should.

Well, it's the one question the GOP candidates seem to have so much trouble with. Who -- would you, rather, have invaded Iraq? Would you have done then what you did if you know what we know now?

Marco Rubio, the latest to try to take that on. We'll bring you what he said and debate it, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:15:36] HARLOW: To presidential politics now. Less than a week after Jeb Bush struggled to answer a question about whether it was a mistake for the U.S. to go to war with Iraq in 2003, that very same question seems to have tripped up Marco Rubio. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Six weeks ago, it made sense to invade Iraq in 2003. Now you say it was a mistake.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, they're two different questions. It was not a mistake. The president, based on -- this is the way the real world works. The president, based on the information that was provided to him --

WALLACE: But she was saying based on the information --

(CROSSTALK)

RUBIO: No, no, but, look, there's two different --

WALLACE: She was saying based on the -- what we know now.

RUBIO: Well, based on what we know now, a lot of things -- based on what we know now, I wouldn't have, you know, thought Manny Pacquiao was going to beat in -- in that fight a couple of weeks ago.

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: I know, but you got asked the same question and you said it made sense --

RUBIO: No, that was not the same -- no, that was not the same question. The question was whether it was a mistake. And my answer was it's not a mistake. I still say it was not a mistake, because the president was presented with intelligence that said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, it was governed by a man who had committed atrocities in the past with weapons of mass destruction --

WALLACE: But, what she asked you was, was it a mistake to go to war with Iraq?

RUBIO: It was not a mistake given the fact that what the president knew at the time.

WALLACE: No, she didn't say that. She just said, was it a mistake?

RUBIO: Well, that's not the same question. The question I was asked is, what you know now? Well, based on what we know now, I think everyone agrees that we still --

WALLACE: Was it a mistake -- was it a mistake to go to war with Iraq?

RUBIO: It wasn't -- I --

WALLACE: I'm asking you to --

RUBIO: Yes, I understand, but that's not the same question.

WALLACE: But I'm asking -- but that's the question I'm asking you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That can make your head spin, back and forth, back and forth. Ben Ferguson, host of "The Ben Ferguson Show" is with us, Marc Lamont Hill also with us, professor at Morehouse College.

Guys, why is this question so hard, Marc?

MARC LAMONT HILL, MOREHOUSE COLLEGE: Look, I don't like Republicans that much but I'm going to do them a favor today. Chris Christie, you're going to run for president probably. Ted Cruz, you'll be asked some questions soon. Mr. Trump, you might be out there.

Listen, as soon as you announce, someone is going to tell you that Iraq was a mistake or not a mistake, and you have to respond. Have a good answer. And here's a little pro tip, say it was a mistake. That's all you have to do. There's no extra charge for you. Nobody will be mad at you. Say Iraq was a mistake and you win. You're welcome.

HARLOW: Ben --

BEN FERGUSON, THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW: That was easy, right?

HARLOW: Ben, to you, though, seriously, do you think that Rubio's Republican opponents are going to use this against him or is this a true case of, like, it's really just semantics here and, you know, he's saying I was answering the question that was I was asked and they're not the same thing?

FERGUSON: I think they're not the same question. I think what every candidate should to now is -- I don't think the Republicans, other Republicans are going to come after him for this.

It's two simple questions. And if I was advising any of these guys I would say, here's what you say. You say, if I had to make the decision when George Bush had to make the decision, I would have made the same decision based on the information we had at that time.

Now, if I had the information we have now, would I have made the same decision? Absolutely not. And neither would George W. Bush.

That's very simple answer. It's not complicated if you listen to what many of these candidates are saying. And I think it's a clear point to make. I would have made the same decision back in the day. Now, I would have said don't go to Iraq --

HILL: Not me.

FERGUSON: -- knowing what we know.

HARLOW: But, Marc, do you think that opens the door for -- with Hillary Clinton saying, of course, then Hillary Clinton they would say is off the hook, then knowing what we know now, she wouldn't have voted for it.

HILL: Well, Hillary Clinton is already off the hook because everybody has blood on their hands that's going to be in this race. That, you know, except the people who weren't in the Senate or House at the time.

So, essentially, Hillary Clinton was never going to get dinged on Iraq because you have Jeb Bush who's not willing to run from his brother. You have Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz who are going to basically say, look, if we had been in that position at that time, we would have made the same choice.

So, I don't think Hillary Clinton is in the equation right now. I think the people who have a shot honestly are the lesser known Democrats who can say as Obama did in '08, look, I would not have voted on this, intelligence was always sketchy, there was never a connection between Saddam and al Qaeda. There were all these other things to consider.

And if I were a right wing candidate, I might also play that card, the Rand Paul card even, the anti-interventionist card. You can win this but can't win it by saying I would do the same thing George Bush did. That doesn't even win for Republicans.

FERGUSON: This is the thing --

HARLOW: Ben, I do want to get something else in here. I want you guys to address this, some interesting stuff that Bernie Sanders, contender for White House said on "STATE OF THE UNION" this morning, talking about Hillary Clinton. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, you know, it's one thing to talk about it. It's one thing to act on it.

[18:20:02] I have been helping to lead the fight for the American middle class for the last 25 or 30 years. We have introduced legislation that would rebuild our crumbling infrastructure and create up to 13 million new jobs.

In the Senate, I'm leading the effort to raise the minimum wage up to $15 an hour so that people who work 40 hours a week will not be living in poverty. We have presented legislation right now which will say to the wealthiest people and largest corporations, you know what, you can't continue to avoid paying your fair share of taxes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So, Ben, he also pointed to someone he calls his good friend, Senator Elizabeth Warren, who has -- FERGUSON: Yes.

HARLOW: -- fiercely opposed the TPP, or the Trans-Pacific Partnership that the president is pushing hard for and he said, look, Hillary Clinton has to take a stand on this and she hasn't.

FERGUSON: This may be the first time of my life I agree with a self- appointed socialist as he has. But he's right. Hillary Clinton should have to answer this question. You're running for president. You're the number one Democrat. You can't hide and not answer the question.

Now, whether she agrees with it or not is not something I care too much about, as much as when are you actually going to play ball, when are you going to actually answer these questions? I think she's going to have to at some point come out and start answering questions for the media. And as long as she doesn't, Bernie is going to get more face time and other people are going to be able to hit on her in her own party.

HARLOW: Well, Marc, she has --

HILL: Well, I don't think Hillary --

HARLOW: -- taken 13 reporter questions. She's taken 13 reporter questions.

HILL: Yes, she's taken, like, 13,000 voter questions. Eight years ago, people said Hillary Clinton doesn't talk to the people, she's aloof, she's above the fray. So, now, instead of talking to the media, she's talking to the people.

I'm mad at Hillary Clinton for a lot of things, but talking to the people is not one of them. I think it's sort of elitist and selfish of we media folks, of us media folk to sit here and say, oh, she's talking to everyday people and not us. Who cares about that? As far as Bernie Sanders --

FERGUSON: Marc --

HILL: -- Bernie Sanders is right. Hold on. I think it's funny he's talking about he's a champion of the people but he can't even say poor people. He's still saying I'm trying to help middle class people.

All that said, though, Hillary has to talk about TPP. The problem is she might not be able to. Part of it is classified and part of it is quite honestly a critique of Obama. He did the whole thing in secrecy.

FERGUSON: No one has asked her about the classified parts of it. You know and I both know, when you run for president, you want media attention to get out to the masses, to the people, to the voters. To act as if she's saying oh --

HILL: She's talking to the voters. FERGUSON: Hold on, let me finish. For her to act like it's

sufficient for her to just go out into little mom and pop shops and that's the only campaign she's going to have is incredibly naive and unrealistic. You talk to the media to talk to voters.

HILL: Ben, it's May of 2015. The election is, like, in a year and a half.

Yes, Hillary will do it. She has a year and a half to talk to the media, talk to other people. She spent the last month talking to, oh my God, actual people. And now, we're upset at her about that? Come on, give her a break.

Again, there's lots of reasons I'm (INAUDIBLE) to Hillary, but talking to the people isn't one of them. TPP is a bad deal. I think Hillary --

HARLOW: So, guys, I have to leave it there. I have to leave it there. Guess what? We have months and months and months to keep talking about this before the election.

(LAUGHTER)

HARLOW: Good to have you both on. Thank you. Have a great week, Ben and Marc. Appreciate it.

FERGUSON: Thanks, Poppy.

HILL: You, too.

HARLOW: All right. Switching gears here to a very, very sad story. Honoring the fallen, the Marine Corps honoring the victims of a helicopter crash in Nepal. The crash left six marines dead and devastated their families. My interview with the wife of one of those heroes, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:27:25] HARLOW: The marines killed in Tuesday's helicopter crash in the mountains of Nepal have now been identified. Their squadron was just a week from returning home when they got the call Nepal desperately needed their help. After two large earthquakes struck the country, they are the ones who came in to help.

One of those fallen marines was Sergeant Eric Seaman, who was one of two helicopter crew chiefs on the mission.

I spoke with his grieving widow.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAMANTHA SEAMAN, WIFE OF MARINE KILLED IN NEPAL HELICOPTER CRASH (via telephone): He was a wonderful man, and he loved me very much. He lived for his family and he would just always tell me that he couldn't wait to come home. He was a great father. He was a great marine. He loved his country, and he -- he really wanted to go to Nepal to help those people.

Last week, I got an e-mail telling me that he felt purpose and that he delivered 10,000 pounds of rice and that he was going to feel it the next day.

But he was a wonderful husband. I couldn't have asked for a better partner in life.

HARLOW: "He felt purpose." And he did what so many people don't do and that is he sacrificed everything for his country. You have these two beautiful children you're looking at as we see images of him kissing them, Roman, 2 1/2 years old, Riley (ph), 1 year old.

What will you one day tell them about their father?

SEAMAN: I just want them to know that their dad was the greatest man. He was a hero. And that he loved them very much. And that everybody around me, all the (INAUDIBLE), are going to make sure he knows that and grows up knowing his dad.

HARLOW: What do you think he wanted to leave the world with, Samantha?

SEAMAN: Love. He loved us very much, his family, his legacy is his family. We're going to do everything we can, everything, until we meet again to make him proud.

HARLOW: I have no doubt he's very proud of all of you. And I have no doubt that he's looking down on the three of you.

He was a decorated member of the marines. He served since 2009. He was awarded the Air Medal, the Marine Corps good contact medal with the Bronze Star, the Afghanistan campaign medal.

Why did he join? Why did he want to serve his country?

SEAMAN: He wanted to make a difference, and my husband, he loves his country, and he wanted to protect his country. And he -- he was a very selfless man and he would have done anything to help others. And I know that right before he passed away, I know that he held somebody and that's exactly why he joined the military.

He wanted to make a difference in the world, and I absolutely know that he did. He made this whole country proud and I -- I'm so proud of him and I love him very, very, very much.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: David Letterman signing off this week from New York. This is really an end of an era. It is being called the end of an era in broadcast television. Friends, admirers, even his critics admit Letterman was hands down a huge game changer for late-night television.

Brian Stelter, CNN senior media correspondent, host of CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES" is with me. It's amazing to look at the lists of guests that he's going to have on

this week.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Right.

HARLOW: Some huge names. Walk me through those and your impression of his impact on late-night television.

STELTER: This is the rare end of an era that's actually as worthy of the hype that it's actually getting.

HARLOW: Yes.

STELTER: You know, we hear those words all the time in television about how networks are always trying to build everything into a special event. This is actually worth the hype. We're going to see Tom Hanks, we're going to see Bob Dylan, Eddie Vedder, and the Bill Murray on the second to last episodes, these are Monday and Tuesday. Wednesday, we have no idea.

It's an hour filled with surprises according to CBS. The network is saying nothing about what Letterman has planned. Some people have wondered if Jay Leno might finally stop by.

HARLOW: Yes.

STELTER: I don't know. I'm starting to get a little bit skeptical.

HARLOW: Has ever come on?

STELTER: He never has. He never has. And Letterman didn't go on his final Leno "Tonight Show." So maybe that's not going to happen. But whatever Letterman is going to do, it's going to be truly a huge television moment. It's almost impossible to overstate Letterman's contributions to late night because now all of the guys and some of the women who are finally breaking into late night, they're all indebted to him.

[18:35:13] HARLOW: His shoes will be filled or attempted to be filled by Stephen Colbert. Can he do it?

STELTER: I think he can. I think he can. He's been off for months. He's had a lot of time to think about who he wants to be as a late show host. He's not going to try to be David Letterman. But he knows that he needs to show respect and appreciation for Letterman.

He made a great joke at the upfront this week, the television upfront where all the advertisers get together. He said, I'm going to honor David Letterman by occasionally making CBS very mad at me. I mean, that's what Letterman was so smart with, in the 1980s especially at NBC, you know.

HARLOW: Yes.

STELTER: He would tick off NBC. He went over to CBS, did more of the same. Letterman innovated in so many different ways. We never can take it for granted now.

HARLOW: Yes.

STELTER: Letterman was one of a kind. Nowadays we got, like, a dozen late-night hosts. Right? There's late-night hosts all over the place.

HARLOW: It's true. There are late-night hosts all over the place.

STELTER: There's only one David Letterman.

HARLOW: There are some amazing numbers when you sort of tick through how many shows he's had. How many top 20,000 total guest appearances, 6,028 shows, 16 Emmy Awards.

STELTER: That's what I mean. This is actually worth the hype.

HARLOW: 4600 top 10 lists.

STELTER: Yes. This is actually worth the hype. I'm sure he's got an amazing top 10 list to wrap up the last episode. Think about this, he announced his retirement a year ago. So he's been thinking about how he wants to leave for a very long time.

HARLOW: Yes.

STELTER: He does say, though, this is not retirement from television entirely. He might be showing up somewhere in the future. You know, Johnny --

HARLOW: These guys can never retire.

STELTER: Johnny Carson is the only one, he's the only one who left and never came back.

HARLOW: Yes.

STELTER: Leno has got a car show on CNBC. So I can only imagine what Letterman might do later.

HARLOW: All right. Brian, thanks so much. We'll be watching the finale this week, Wednesday night.

You can see Brian of course every Sunday on "RELIABLE SOURCES" 11:00 a.m. Eastern. And join Conan O'Brien, Jimmy Kimmel, Seth Myers, and many, many more for a celebration of David Letterman. This is all in a special hosted by our very own Jake Tapper. CNN Special Report, "DAVID LETTERMAN SAYS GOOD NIGHT," Tuesday night 9:00 p.m. Eastern only right here on CNN.

Over the past few weeks no story has dominated the headlines more than the issues of police shootings. Our next guest says this is not on African-American problem, this is not a policing problem, this is an American problem, and we need to do something about it.

We'll talk to him about it next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:56] HARLOW: There is no question the relationship between some minority communities and the police in many cities has deteriorated. And a growing number of incidents confirm just that. The death of some young men including Tony Robinson in Madison, Wisconsin, Freddie Gray in Baltimore, Walter Scott in North Charleston, South Carolina, and Eric Garner in New York, have dominated the headlines.

And in Chatham County, Georgia, the family of Matthew Ajibade are still waiting for answers 4 1/2 months after the 21-year-old died in police custody. His cousin who I interviewed last weekend spoke at a vigil and a rally held in Savannah on Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS OLADAPO, AJIBADE'S COUSIN: I don't understand how the sheriff, the head of the sheriff's department, still has his job when people are dying under his watch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: In a statement released to us here at CNN, the Chatham County sheriff says, "This call for the release of information in that incident is premature due to the fact the Georgia Bureau of Investigations just concluded their investigation a few weeks ago." Meanwhile the sheriff's department has announced a number of changes in the wake of Ajibade's death including requiring medical personnel to be notified when someone who needs medication and medical attention is booked at the jail.

Those are just a few of the cases sparking a national conversation and debate. Let me bring in someone who's trying to change the relationship between some of the police departments and the public that they police. Birmingham, Alabama, Mayor William Bell joins me here in New York.

It's good to have you on the program, sir.

MAYOR WILLIAM BELL SR., BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: Thanks for being here. Let me first get your take on this string of use of force cases that we're seeing in this country, they're dominating the headlines. What happened? Where's the breakdown?

BELL: Well, I think what has happened over a period of time, there's been a de-sensitization between the police department and the community, and it's on both parties. The police have, for whatever reason, just taken a hardlined approach to policing communities, certain communities, and the general public has become wary of their involvement in the community itself.

And so what we're trying to do is trying to find ways to bring the community and the police department together to find a common ground. For example, in Birmingham, we have what we call community policing and revitalization. We also have a COPS program. C-O-P. Citizens on Patrol. Where we have the police department and the communities interacting and understanding how the police department work, but more importantly, giving the police department to see that these are citizens in the community who want a better community and they're willing to work with you.

HARLOW: Birmingham, and you're leading this, Birmingham is part of this federal government initiative.

BELL: Yes.

HARLOW: Called the Initiative for Building Community Trust and Justice. This was formed in the wake of all of what's been going on.

BELL: Yes.

HARLOW: Your city has $4.7 million to put to work to make things be things work. What tangible changes are you going to make?

BELL: Well, first of all, you will see body cameras coming on board.

HARLOW: For your entire police force?

BELL: Yes. Right now we're going through a pilot program. We can see a lot of issues that have to be worked out in terms of how do you use the body cameras.

HARLOW: Right.

BELL: What information is available to the public, how that information is stored if --

HARLOW: So body cameras?

BELL: Yes, body cameras. Programs to give the police officer a better understanding of his community. And to make sure that that officer realize that he is a part of that community. And then other initiatives that the community see the police officer as a resource as opposed to an occupying force.

HARLOW: So I spent time Friday, I spent the day in Bridgeport, Connecticut. This is -- this is a town where they deal in some pockets with a lot of crime. And it's a town where I talked to a principal at an elementary school who said to me, you know, yes, we need more funding and more money, but she said I also think there needs to be accountability for that money.

BELL: Oh, yes.

HARLOW: You see the conservative-liberal debate on this. And some conservatives say liberal policies of just dumping money into some of these areas have failed urban America, failed some of these inner cities.

BELL: You know, my response to something like that is that we spend billions of dollars trying to build the infrastructure of education in foreign countries. But we have a problem when it comes down to doing the same thing here in America. Yes, there needs to be accountability. And, yes, you can build accountability into the process, but more importantly you have to put the resources out there.

[18:45:26] We've got too -- too many young men and women who are walking the streets that don't have availability of GED programs, job training programs, things of that nature. Build accountability into the programs, but more importantly have those programs available. And when you do that, you start to educate kids, you start to give them hope.

Right now in many of our communities there is no hope. So what do you do? Do you just turn your back and say let's lock them all up? No, you've got to find ways to overcome those objections that some people legitimately may have.

HARLOW: Before I let you go, a lot of the former police tell me in this city we need more cops on the beat. These cops need to know their community, their community needs to know them. Is that -- quickly, is that what you're doing in Birmingham as part of this program?

BELL: That is exactly what we're doing.

HARLOW: More cops on the beat?

BELL: Well, not just more cops but smart cops to make sure that the police officer is trained, understands his professionalism, and then exhibit that on a day-to-day basis and reinforce it on a constant basis.

HARLOW: Yes. And it's just important not to group anyone here, right? Not all cops are bad cops, not all --

BELL: Not all cops are bad. Not all people on the streets are bad. And we've got to find ways to bring people together to get that understanding.

HARLOW: Yes.

BELL: Because the African-American community, they want safe streets.

HARLOW: Yes.

BELL: So you got to work with the police department.

HARLOW: I think everyone does. We all do.

BELL: Absolutely.

HARLOW: Good to have you on the program, Mayor. Love to have you on in six months and so and hear how it's going.

BELL: Look forward to it.

HARLOW: Thanks very much. BELL: Thank you.

HARLOW: Appreciate it.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:50:27] HARLOW: A fight between biker gangs has escalated. It has turned into a shootout in Waco, Texas. We are told nine people have died. This happened in just the past few hours in Waco right outside of a Twin Peaks Restaurant. Police say the fight started with clubs and knives and change, and then guns came out.

As I said, it started inside of a restaurant. It spilled out into the parking lot on this Sunday afternoon. Nine people have died. Several others are hurt.

We are continuing to monitor this. We'll bring you the latest as soon as we have it.

A political prisoner in Venezuela says the world needs to pay more attention to his country. In an op-ed in the "Washington Post," the former mayor of Venezuela, Leopoldo Lopez, called Venezuela a failed state and says, quote, "Under the heavy hand of President Nicolas Maduro, our country is in profound economic, social and political crisis."

Let's talk about with CNN Espanol's Juan Carlos Lopez.

I know that you guys spoke with him recently. Talk to us about the significance of it. The fact that he was able to get this letter out from prison, published in the "Washington Post."

JUAN CARLO-LOPEZ, CNN ANCHOR, CNN ESPANOL: Poppy, it's very interesting, Venezuela deeply divided country, a government that accuses the opposition of hosting a right-wing coup against them, of conspiracy. Oppositions such as Leopoldo Lopez say it is not true. But they're very active in social media, they're very active politically abroad.

His wife, Leopoldo Lopez's wife, Lilian Tintori, was in Washington this week. He was rewarded with the National Endowment for Democracy Award. And she came and she has been speaking on his behalf. She has been his voice. And that's how they've been getting this message out. He's been in jail for about 15 months in a military prison. His -- the process against him has been delayed. It's still delayed.

And many see this as a measure by the government to try to stifle the opposition in the middle of a very profound crisis. Now the government says they don't want anyone meddling in their internal affairs, they don't want the U.S. meddling in their internal affairs. But there was a very high-level diplomat, Thomas Shannon, was in Caracas a few days ago, meeting with President Maduro, meeting with their foreign minister. No word yet on what came out of that meeting but tensions still between Caracas and Washington. HARLOW: But -- Venezuela's economy has really taken a hit with the

dramatic decline in oil prices, right? So when your economy takes a hit, people are not -- presidents are not as popular with their people. Do you have a sense that Maduro will hang on to power?

LOPEZ: Time will tell. People can't find -- it's not only not having fun. Devaluation is the highest in the world in Venezuela. People can't find the products they want to buy.

HARLOW: Yes.

LOPEZ: And their income has gone down to about $25 a month.

HARLOW: All right. Thank you so much, Juan Carlos Lopez. It's a fascinating read, his op-ed in the "Washington Post" today. Thanks so much.

Coming up next, Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple, one of the world's most influential company, the most valuable company on the planet. He rarely speaks to the public. When he does, people listen. And grads of the class of 2015 got some pretty remarkable advice from him today.

We'll bring it to you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:56:41] HARLOW: Apple's chief executive, CEO Tim Cook, told the George Washington University's graduating class of 2015 that they are tasked with finding a job that doesn't just bring them wealth, but one that mirrors their values.

Speaking today to 25,000 people on the Washington Mall, Cook said it was Steve jobs who inspired that concept and he said that Jobs saw a world where technology could change lives and be a tool to stop injustice.

We wanted you to hear a little bit of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIM COOK, CEO, APPLE: His vision for Apple was a company that turned powerful technology into tools that were easy to use. Tools that would help people realize their dreams and change the world for the better.

I had studied to be an engineer and earned an MBA. I was trained to be pragmatic. A problem solver. Now I found myself sitting before and listening to this very animated 40-something guy with visions of changing the world. It was not what I had expected.

At Apple, we believe the work should be more than just about improving your own self. It's about improving the lives of others as well. Our products do amazing things, and just as Steve envisioned, they've empowered people all over the world. People who are blind and need information read to them because they can't see the screen. People for whom technology is a lifeline because they're isolated by distance or disability.

People who witness injustice and want to expose it. And now they can because they have a camera in their pocket all the time.

(APPLAUSE)

Graduates, your values matter. They are your North Star. And work takes on new meaning when you feel you're pointed in the right direction. Otherwise it's just a job. And life is too short for that. We need the best and brightest of your generation to lead in government and in business. In the science and in the arts. In journalism and in academia.

There's honor in all of these pursuits and there's opportunity to do work that's infused with moral purpose. You don't have to choose between doing good and doing well. It's a fault choice. Today more than ever, your challenge is to find work that pays the rent, puts food on the table, and lets you do what is right and good and just.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: By the way, Tim Cook ended that address by pulling out his iPhone and taking a picture of the 6,000 strong graduating class of 2015.

I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. Thanks so much for being with me tonight. Have a great week.