Return to Transcripts main page

Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Waco Biker Shootout; War Against ISIS. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired May 18, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Great to see all of you. Thank you so much for joining us AT THIS HOUR.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: LEGAL VIEW with Ashleigh Banfield starts right now.

BOLDUAN: Thinking of my questions now, including this -

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

What's happened already is bad enough, but what could happen next has the city of Waco, Texas, on edge today, and police there on high alert. They're bracing for possible revenge attacks by motorcycle gangs that took part in a bloody shoot-out yesterday at a Waco restaurant. Nine people ended up dead. At least 17 were hurt. It was a brawl that apparently began in a restroom and spilled out into the parking lot.

Some 200 members of five different gangs had converged on a place called Twin Peaks and now more than 170 people are locked up on charges of engaging in organized crime. The restaurant itself has been ordered closed for the next week at least. And we've just heard that the national chain is canceling its franchise agreement.

Also, in the past few minutes, we just got word about 15 seconds worth of cell phone video apparently taken just after the shooting stopped. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Over there by the -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They've got everybody on the ground.

(CROSS TALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, someone's been shot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to bring in my CNN colleague, Nick Valencia, who's live on location.

Nick, one of the questions I have is this fear of retribution. That there are possibly dozens upon dozens of other bike gang members who are on their way to Waco to exact some kind of revenge. What do you know about this?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that is certainly a concern for local law enforcement officials here. I spoke to the spokesman for the Waco Police Department who says that is a very real and very credible threat. Threats from these biker gangs who sort of want to, like you mentioned, Ashleigh, a revenge attack against uniformed police officers. We have yet to hear more details about that, but they do say that's adding to the tension here.

Also, in just the last few minutes, I want to update us - our viewers here. We just got a statement from the corporate offices of Twin Peaks. Twin Peaks, of course, is the site where this bloody shoot-out took place. And this statement here very critical of the actions or lack thereof by this local business here. The statement reading in part, Ashleigh, "we are in the people business and the safety of the employees and guests in our restaurants is priority one. Unfortunately, the management team of the franchise restaurant in Waco chose to ignore the warnings and advice from both the people and our company and did not uphold the high security standards we have in place to ensure everyone is save at our restaurants. We will not tolerate the actions of this relatively new franchisee and are revoking their franchise agreement immediately. Our sympathies continue to be with the families of those who died and are very thankful no employees, guests, police officers or bystanders were hurt or injured."

Of course, nine people died and more than a dozen were injured. About 18 people were injured here as a result of the shoot-out yesterday. A police officer spoke about knowing that this meeting was going to happen between the motorcycle gangs. That's why they had a presence here. They were able to quickly engage those biker gangs during the shoot-out and brawl that ensued here just behind me. They spoke at length earlier about their lack of relationship with the local management here at Twin Peaks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. W. PATRICK SWANTON, WACO, TEXAS POLICE: We've been here for about two months doing some investigative work. We have been here monitoring the situation. We attempted to talk with the local staff here at that restaurant, made them aware of issues that we were aware of. We didn't get any assistance from them. We'll be very open and public about that and very transparent about it. The chips are going to fall where they may with that company or with that local management issue here at Twin Peaks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Meanwhile, Ashleigh, we are standing by for another press conference from that man you heard of, Sergeant Swanton, in the next 15 to 20 minutes. For now, what we do know is, as you mentioned, about 170 people were arrested as a result of this shoot-out. Many of them were processed earlier today through the local court system. All of them will be charged with engaging in organized crime. Some of them will face capital murder charges.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: All right, our Nick Valencia, thank you for that. I appreciate it.

I want to bring in the CNN attorneys on this case right now. Danny Cevallos and HLN's legal analyst Joey Jackson here with me.

Guys, both of you, when I think about organized crime, i think Rico and what else can you throw at that many people in that big a melee.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure.

BANFIELD: Effectively, what are they going to do to try to actually get some of these charges to stick?

[12:05:01] JACKSON: Well, what they're first going to do is they're going to look at - and we saw a little bit of it, we saw some cell phone video. And who knows, that was cell phone video after the fact. Who knows what exists, Ashleigh, in terms of what was happening during because what you have to do, in charging people, is you have to pin specific factual activity as to them. So was there cell phone, was there any surveillance. In addition to that, certainly they'll look to forensic evidence. If there's anything recovered, it will be tested for prints, it will be tested for DNA, it will be tracked, specifically, to see were there bullets fired, if so who discharged that bullet. There will be eyewitnesses who are obviously interviewed, although you may have some concerns there because people are very fearful in terms of intimidation and in terms of coming forward.

BANFIELD: Ah, thank you for bringing that up, because that was one of the first things I wondered about, Danny. You're talking about bike gangs. You're talking already about retribution. Other people on the way. And then you have these little things called witnesses, some of them running to the freezer to escape the bullets and the knifes and the fisticuffs. Are they going to be able to get witnesses to actually talk or will there be so much intimidation just in the nature of what happened, let alone those who might actually try to mess with the system and do some wholesale intimidation.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's an accepted fact of organized crime life that witnesses often go south. So what's going to be interesting here is, what statements are the police getting, if any. And even if they get statements, will those witnesses go south at trial time and the prosecution will be in that awkward position, Joey, you've seen it before, where they have to cross examine their own witnesses who now suddenly don't know -

BANFIELD: Become hostile, right?

CEVALLOS: What the check happened and have sudden memory loss at trial. JACKSON: If they can get those witnesses ultimately to come forward

and to participate willingly, and even if you get them, Danny, right under a material witness order where they're compelled to testify, as Danny mentions, they're hostile to the extent that they don't want to be forthcoming because there are threats of intimidation against them and against their lives.

CEVALLOS: So what does law enforcement do if this becomes the proverbial tree that fell in the middle of the forest and nobody was there to hear it? If all of the witnesses say they saw nothing, heard nothing, no evil here, then how will they ultimately prosecute this case?

BANFIELD: How do you prosecute? Yes.

CEVALLOS: Yes.

BANFIELD: Here's the other thing. You know, we - we're talking about a forensic scene that's got hundreds of bullets, is my guess. If you've got a couple hundred people under arrest, you've got knives, guns, fists and this incredible processing scene. How do you actually figure out whose forensics fit which crime and which defendant?

JACKSON: Well, here's what they're going to do, and just speaking about something else first, what the defense is going to do is they're going to argue mere present, hey, if my client was merely present, that's not enough. And then in addition to that, Ashleigh, they'll argue, my client was defending himself and defending his life against an imminent threat. But in terms of how they process all of that information, they're going to run DNA analysis and fingerprint analysis -

BANFIELD: Fingerprints on all those weapons.

JACKSON: As to each specific (INAUDIBLE).

CEVALLOS: You know, gunshot residue.

BANFIELD: Ballistics.

JACKSON: One hundred percent.

BANFIELD: But the - I mean, look, it's hard enough to get a conviction on one guy in a courtroom with one shooting victim. Now you have all of these shooting victims, all of these injuries, all of these stabbings and all of these people. Do you really think that they're going to be successful in trying to nail down these -

CEVALLOS: And - yes, an analogy to these cases would be the prosecution of riot crimes -

BANFIELD: Yes.

CEVALLOS: Like say the L.A. riots, because what you have is you have a lot of different moving parts and from the time of arrest to the time of trial, there's so many things going on, police have a hard time organizing their investigation and then ultimately marshalling that evidence at the time of trial, whether it be witnesses, whether it be forensics. I mean even the issue of gunshot residue, for example, that's that microscopic dust after you fire a gun that ends up on your hand, well, you have so many people moving around, you have that problem with transference, maybe even if you sit in the same police car.

JACKSON: Sure.

CEVALLOS: Now you've got different people with different kinds of dust on their hand. I mean that little problem alone becomes magnified into a huge one.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you -

JACKSON: But there's a wildcard, though, Ashleigh -

BANFIELD: OK.

JACKSON: And that wildcard again is what, if any, surveillance they have, which will show the factual details -

BANFIELD: Bingo.

JACKSON: As to the specific participants -

BANFIELD: Right.

JACKSON: And exactly what they were doing, whether their surveillance the business had or cell phones of people at the -

BANFIELD: I'll bet - or the cell phones. And I'll bet that's not the only cell phone out there.

JACKSON: Sure. Right.

BANFIELD: And I'll bet there's a bunch of cell phones confiscated. I was going to get to the whole concentric circle when they just try to squeeze everybody who has been arrested to see which one squeaks first before the others.

JACKSON: That's a -

CEVALLOS: DOJ are the masters of that technique.

BANFIELD: These guys don't squeak. These are gangsters.

JACKSON: But that's a problem. Exactly.

BANFIELD: That's the thing. They're gangsters, right, and they don't - and you know what else, they're thugs. People who do this are thugs, plain and simple. Ugly, ugly criminal behavior. Tony Soprano in real life.

Guys, thank you.

JACKSON: Thank you.

BANFIELD: We'll continue to watch what happens because clearly it's a developing story.

What really goes in - goes on inside these motorcycle gangs. Coming up next, you're going to get the real story from an undercover agent who spent two years riding alongside.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:13:02] BANFIELD: We are following national scourge that the Justice Department refers to as OMG. And don't LOL about it. In federal speak, OMG actually means Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs. And they are back in the news with the deadly shoot-out just yesterday at the Twin Peaks restaurant located in Waco, Texas. Nine people are dead, more than 170 people are charged with engaging in organized crime and police are really worried that there's more trouble on the way as well in the way of revenge and retribution. People on route to exact some kind of that retribution.

William Queen spent two years in the Mongol biker gang in East L.A., all the while collecting evidence for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives. His two years undercover - yes, two years - led to a now legendary takedown of gang members in several different states. It also led to a best-selling book called "Under and Alone." And Billy Queen joins me live now, undisclosed location understandable.

Billy, thank you so much for being with us.

I just need to get your reaction when you saw the headlines of this many bikers in this big a melee with this many gangs, was this a surprise to you? Were you seeing this coming?

WILLIAM "BILLY" QUEEN, FORMER UNDERCOVER ATF AGENT: Well, this big of a brawl was a surprise to me. I mean, in Lofland (ph), Nevada, several years back, the melee between the Hell's Angels and the Mongols was a big melee. But in terms of death and destruction, this is the biggest brawl that I've ever seen, ever heard of.

BANFIELD: And that many gangs all in one place as well. I just - you know, police kind of knew what was up because they were in place, which leads me to believe, are they dealing with social media? Is this the insider who might have been actually infiltrating to lead the police to know that there was something coming? And, by the way, even though the police were there, it didn't matter.

[12:15:02] QUEEN: No, things can get out of hand real quick with outlaw gangs like this because, first of all, they are violent and they have enough people inside that have that propensity for violence and anything can kick them off, as it did in this case. And the reason that there were so many different organizations that were there that day was, they were actually having a coalition meeting. And the Bandidos and Cossacks were only two of the organizations that were there. But the problems were between the Bandidos and the Cossacks and law enforcement knew it. BANFIELD: So let me ask you, this isn't over. The fear that the police

have that there are more people on the way. I just have to ask, I mean, I - with that much attention and the eyes of the country focused right now on this location, on Waco, a huge police presence and a big, big prosecution underway, do you really think more members are on the way to carry out revenge?

QUEEN: Well, I understood that there were more members on the way. However, they're not really that stupid. In my opinion, they'll probably be told to stand down by the leadership.

BANFIELD: Really?

QUEEN: Especially in the Bandidos. They just don't - that's - that will be my opinion. There's too much focus on this right now out there. I know, in my experience, when emotions are really high, then people will be running around with their pants on fire, but it will calm down a bit.

BANFIELD: Yes.

QUEEN: And reason will prevail -

BANFIELD: And that's when the trouble will be bigger?

QUEEN: Well, there's always that possibility, that they're going to seek revenge. I mean they're very violent organizations. And so that may be very well what happens.

BANFIELD: What are the odds, Billy, that there is some undercover activity that is already underway, was already underway, and that there may have actually been undercover agents present for what happened yesterday?

QUEEN: I suspect that there was. I can't say that there was, but -

BANFIELD: You do?

QUEEN: But - oh, absolutely, I suspect that there was, absolutely, yes.

BANFIELD: So maybe this fear that the witness intimidation issue, which would be such a problem for prosecutors, may not be as big of a problem if you've got some guys on the right side of the law prepared to tell all and testify and effectively give interviews with as much information as you could possibly ever want?

QUEEN: Sure. That biker code of silence and witness intimidation won't be that big of a problem if they do have undercovers in there. And I feel quite sure that they did. And besides that, they had police outside too, so they're only going to be able to intimidate a certain part of that group that was there. It's going to be very tough to intimidate those undercover agents and those police officers that were there.

BANFIELD: Well, Billy, you've been a wealth of knowledge. I really appreciate not only you joining us but the work that you've done and the information that you've helped bring to light on this kind of criminal activity. Thank you, sir.

QUEEN: Thank you, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: It's nice to see you safe and alive, I'll tell you - tell you that.

I also want to let our viewers know that we are expecting some breaking news any moment now at the location of the Twin Peaks, on the right-hand side of your screen. Waco Police are planning on giving a briefing about, well, whatever they have and whatever they know as this continues to be an active crime scene. So, stay tuned to this space. Hopefully we'll get an update as to what is up in Waco.

Also coming up next, the coalition's big win and the coalition's big loss. Where do we stand in the war against ISIS? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:22:11] BANFIELD: In the war against ISIS, you certainly could - actually, you know what, let me just let you know, in Waco, Texas, we're awaiting that news conference on the deadly biker gang shoot- out. And it's very fluid, we don't know what time they're going to hit with the news conference. So we're going to continue on with our newscast, but we're going to break in just as soon as those police officers in Waco hit the mikes and give us the update on exactly what's happening. But, you know, upwards of close to 200 people arrested and facing charges in a very serious shooting with nine people dead. And, again, we'll bring it to you just as soon as it happens.

But when we're talking about what's happening in the war against ISIS, you can sum up this weekend in one huge win and one huge loss. And then really I'm not sure where else to go with that because if you're talking about the win, the U.S. special forces raided an ISIS compound in Syria. It was a daring, it was a risky mission. They killed a key ISIS fighter. His name was Abu Sayyaf. Officials say he resisted surrender and was taken out - that's the official lingo - taken out after a fire fight.

His wife was not taken out. She was taken alive. And right now she's being integrated in Iraq by members of the U.S. high value interrogation group. Also the FBI. Also the CIA. Also the military. That's a lot of high interrogation going on, you can imagine. So that was the win.

And then here is the loss. ISIS did manage to take control of the key city of Ramadi in Iraq. That happened just yesterday. Ramadi is 75 miles west of Baghdad. ISIS used explosive laden bulldozers and other vehicles driven by suicide bombers. Ramadi is just a few miles from an Iraqi army base that ISIS was able to blow up back in March. Secretary of State John Kerry says he's confident the ISIS gains will be reversed.

There's been a lot of gains and some reversals. We want to talk about this. And with me here in studio is CNN contributor Michael Weiss, who's the co-author of "ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror," and then with us live in Orlando is retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, who commanded 28,000 troops as part of the U.S. task force in northern Iraq from 2007 to 2009.

So, general, let me just start with the win and the loss. And if you have to put the metric to it, what is happening in this battle against ISIS because it doesn't sound like there's a lot of winning going on.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I like your second terminology, Ashleigh, when you talked about gains and reverses. I refuse to let my intel folks, when we were in northern Iraq, use the term wins and losses because in this kind of a conflict, you're always going to have some gains, some reverses.

You're right, the strike against Abu Sayyaf and his Umm (ph) Sayyaf (ph) was a pretty big gain. There's going to be a lot of intelligence value out of that. He was a financier. He was the amir of oil and gas. And I think we're going to see quite a bit of intelligence reaping from some of the things that they found on the site. At least that's what my contacts are telling me right now.

[12:25:04] In terms of Ramadi, what I'd suggest is, this is going to continue to be a violent clash of two forces and a lot of exchanges of ground. I'm even going to make a prediction that, first of all, I don't think ISIS has gained control of Ramadi. It's still a heavy duty fight going on there. But I'm going to make a prediction that we're going to see continued desperate fighting throughout the rest of this week and there are going to be additional gains and losses on both sides.

BANFIELD: Well, that is a big prediction and we're going to watch this and talk with you about it after the weeks just to see - just if there is this kind of reversal. In the interim, though, I want to ask about the value of Abu Sayyaf's wife. Now, look, taking a wife into custody doesn't always yield a lot, but, Michael Weiss, this is not your everyday wife.

MICHAEL WEISS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Right.

BANFIELD: She is considered to be a member of ISIS. They had a Yazidi slave apparently, for what that's worth. What exactly do you expect they could get out of an ISIS wife, a commander's wife?

WEISS: So, to my mind, Abu Sayyaf's importance is more to do with the human trafficking component of ISIS, particularly American hostages that had been captured and then brutally killed by them. I've heard, and it's been reported by ABC News, that Katie Mueller (ph), Abu Sayyaf was personally responsible for her captivity. So there is kind of an emotional component to launching this raid. The president wanted to capture him live, bring him back to the United States and then have him stand trial as a kind of recompense for all the victims of ISIS, Americans -

BANFIELD: Perhaps the wife will have some -

WEISS: She will because -

BANFIELD: Because if they are as pious as they say they are, they're not going to have a lot of interplay with a female hostage -

WEISS: Right.

BANFIELD: (INAUDIBLE) perhaps the wife would be playing more of that role.

WEISS: Well, also, look, I mean they lived together, obviously, and she'll have seen all the other ISIS figures who came and paid homage or visited Abu Sayyaf over the course of, what, several months, maybe even years. So she'll have what I call the rolodex pragmatism side of this. She'll know where the other guys are or how maybe even to get to them.

BANFIELD: And to get that information out of her, General Mark Hertling, what are the rules of engagement when it comes to interrogating a wife? A wife.

HERTLING: Well, she -

BANFIELD: Is she - is she considered an enemy combatant? Like, what - what happens here?

HERTLING: Absolutely she's considered an enemy combatant and that's how they're talking to them. And let me elaborate a little bit with an example, Ashleigh, because it's important what Michael just said. These individuals share information. And I hate to tell a war story, but in 2008, we captured the wife in Delilah (ph) province of a major al Qaeda leader. She had been running the female terrorist vest approach to how they were fighting us. There had been 19 females wearing terrorist vests. The wife of a terrorist was running this cell.

When we captured a few individuals, it allowed us to break the cell down, break the network down. So there have been some who have said, hey, women don't know anything about it and based on the culture they're not involved. What I'd say to that is, experience has taught me differently. When you get a high-level wife like this, they're going to have a lot of information and they possibly could allow you to pull some strings.

BANFIELD: That's interesting. That's fascinating.

So I just want to throw a quick graphic - a graphic up on the air as we wrap this segment, just so everybody knows where we are in this battle. It's been nine months since the fight against ISIS began officially with the coalition, August 2014. Eighteen countries in the coalition. More than 3,900 air strikes. And if you're looking at the investment, over $2.11 billion spent so far. Let's hope, General Hertling, that we do come back and talk about reversals in, you know, the coming days, weeks or perhaps more. Thank you, general. Thank you, Michael.

WEISS: Sure. BANFIELD: Good to see you, as always. Appreciate it.

HERTLING: Thank you.

BANFIELD: By the way, coming up at 9:00 tonight, got to let you know about Fareed Zakaria's awesome work. At 9:00 he's going to take an in- depth look at the terror group. The doc is called "Blindsided: How ISIS Shook the World." 9:00 tonight with Fareed Zakaria. Don't miss it.

Coming up next, the FBI looking into the possibility that some sort of projectile hit the windshield of that Amtrak train just before the deadly derailment in Philadelphia.

And again, as I mentioned before, we're watching with the live mikes and the live camera to see when the Waco Police are going to have that live news conference updating us on that extraordinary brawl that erupted at a Twin Peaks restaurant yielding nine dead, close to 20 injured and close to 200 under arrest and facing charges. Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)