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Hillary Clinton on Iraq War; ISIS Makes Gains in Iraq; Biker Brawl Investigation. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired May 19, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:02]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, sir.

RUPERT JEE, FREQUENT DAVID LETTERMAN GUEST: I would say Mia Farrow. She was very nice. Mia Farrow, she was very nice. She was very kind. She was a very kind woman, Mia Farrow.

BALDWIN: OK. I will take both of your word for it.

Global celebrity Rupert Jee of David Letterman fame, thank you so much for allowing our cameras in your deli today. It was a treat.

And, Jake Tapper, my friend, make sure you tune in for his special. This whole team has been working months and months on this, "David Letterman Says Good Night," tonight 9:00 Eastern and Pacific right here on CNN.

All right. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

This just in to us here: Three of those 170 bikers arrested in Sunday's deadly shoot-out in Texas have been released by mistake. We have much more in a moment on the sheriff's stunning announcement, that just coming down, three released by mistake. This comes as police there say the threats against them by bikers have -- quote, unquote -- "toned down."

But, today, they say they are still keeping their guard up two days after this bloodbath that left nine bikers dead, 18 injured, and 170 accused gang members charged.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. W. PATRICK SWANTON, WACO POLICE DEPARTMENT: There have been credible, reliable threats toward law enforcement in and around our area. I will tell you those have toned down a bit over the past 24 hours. We are absolutely thankful of that.

I made mention last night that there has been enough tragedy and there's been enough bloodshed in Waco, Texas. We would appreciate there not being any more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And then you have the mug shots, a wall of mug shots here. This represents $170 million worth of bond. That's right.

Authorities say everyone arrested is being charged with engaging in organized crime with a $1 million bond a person. And we're told more arrests are expected, according to Waco police. As for the victims, those seven shooting victims, they are in a hospital. They are under guard. And police will not confirm what a law enforcement source did tell CNN, that four of those nine killed were, in fact, shot by police.

Let's go now to Waco, Texas, to my colleague Nick Valencia, who's there.

And let's just loop back to this sort of staggering news that we're now hearing three bikers were reportedly, what, mistakenly released? How did that happen, Nick?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, those three that were -- that police are looking for right now were among the first to be booked by the sheriff's office. They were booked initially under a $50,000 bond.

Now, you mentioned that those 170 that are in police custody right now are under a $1 million bond. So these three posted bail, and now police want to book them back in under that $1 million bond. There was a press conference held recently by the Waco Police Department. We learned a lot more new details about what happened on Sunday.

Among those is that many of those arrested and killed, Brooke, were not from the Waco area. Police believe that many people came here from outside the city because there was a coalition of biker gangs meeting here. And what ended up happening, according to police, is that a rival biker gang showed up uninvited and began a turf war.

All of this brutality may have started after somebody got their foot run over by a motorcycle. Also, coincidentally, there was another skirmish that was starting inside, according to police. Eventually, all of that spilled outside into the parking lot, leaving nine people dead, 18 injured, and again 170 people right now detained, in police custody, held on $1 million bail -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: On our reporting, sources telling CNN that four of those victims were shot by police.

Do we know yet when -- which officers were involved in the shootings and where those members of law enforcement are right now?

VALENCIA: Well, we were not given specifics about those that were here.

We do know there were 18 police officers from the Waco Police Department, as well as four from the Texas Department of Public Safety. Initially, there were some rumors a swell that there were SWAT agents, ATF agents here as well. I asked that to the spokesman for Waco P.D. They said that's not the case,just had about 22 police officers here on site, and the reason being is that they anticipated trouble. They knew that this meeting was going to go down. Based on past

incidents, they believed that there was going to be trouble here this time, more significant this time around. And that ended up coming to fruition. You saw just the chaos that ensued here. It's fortunate that no innocent bystanders were injured during that melee on Sunday -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Nick Valencia, thank you very much in Waco for me.

VALENCIA: You bet.

BALDWIN: Waco police gave more detail about how the shoot-out started. They say a biker gang that was not invited showed up at a biker gathering at this Twin Peaks restaurant. But gang experts say this, that patches, these patches on the bikers' leather jackets could have triggered this whole thing.

The Bandidos crew, this is one of these big gangs, they own this area of Texas, experts say, hints that the -- the bottom patch at the bottom, it's called a bottom rocker. We're all learning this terminology here.

[15:05:02]

Experts tell CNN the Bandidos may have taken some serious offense to this other gang, the Cossacks, wearing that same bottom rocker. See, Texas. But an active Bandido says his gang is getting a bad rap from just a couple, he says, bad apples.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMMY GRAVES, BANDIDOS: We're not gangs. We do not -- we do not appreciate gangs. We don't appreciate being called a gang. We don't like it. And we have never been a gang.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You are about to hear from Charles Falco. The name is fake. And he explains how biker gang members oftentimes follow a certain profile and there are even sort of these minor league clubs, for lack of a better term, that major gangs recruit from. Falco spoke with our colleague Sara Sidner here at CNN. And his identity is 100 percent concealed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: How would you describe how they operate? Are they different in the way that they operate?

(CROSSTALK)

CHARLES FALCO, FORMER INFORMANT: They're very similar. They're very sophisticated. They're structured like the military.

A lot of members are ex-military, so they're highly trained for combat. They're much better than your average street gang at conducting war. They're professionals at it. They're older, but they fight over territory just like any other street gang.

SIDNER: When you talk about war, who are they warring with? Is it just other gangs or is it society at large?

FALCO: I would say it's society at large and mostly other motorcycle gangs.

SIDNER: That's terrifying.

FALCO: Yes.

When I did my Vagos infiltration, half my chapter was ex-Marines. So, they're highly skilled, highly trained killers.

SIDNER: Could you make a comparison between them and, say, the Bloods and the Crips, which everyone is also quite familiar with?

FALCO: Yes. I think they're much more sophisticated and, in the long run, much more dangerous. Has the Crips and Bloods ever shot it out for five minutes at a family restaurant on Sunday day? No. And have you ever seen this mass of a killing from street gangs?

They're much more sophisticated. They use bombs. The third largest bomb ever used on U.S. soil was an Outlaw using it against a Hells Angel biker puppet club, was in Chicago. And this was only, what, 25, 30 years ago. They still use firebombs.

SIDNER: There are also biker clubs. How do you differentiate? There's a lot of biker clubs where you have doctors and lawyers and former police officers who are involved...

FALCO: Yes. Yes.

SIDNER: ... who are -- nothing to do with crime.

FALCO: Yes. And most motorcycle clubs aren't gang members. They're not what we call 1 percenters; 99 percent of motorcycle Harley or motorcycle riders in general are good, law-abiding people.

And SO the motorcycle gangs said, yes, oh, yes, that -- we're the 1 percent then. And then they got a -- they made up their own patch that says 1 percenter. So, they're admitting that they're the 1 percent, the 1 percent that is bad, the criminals, gangsters, or whatever you want to call that.

Bandidos will have several puppet clubs, they call them. They're almost like a minor league, like the Dodgers will have their minor league. And they have their minor league clubs that do their bidding.

SIDNER: So, these are basically feeder gangs to the bigger criminal enterprises.

FALCO: Yes. Yes, yes.

SIDNER: Wow.

FALCO: Yes. Yes.

SIDNER: So, it's set up that way. It is very strategic in the way it does things.

FALCO: Yes. Yes.

And this thing could have been avoided so easily.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Sara Sidner with that interview.

And just quickly, I was just handed an urgent that now we can officially say according to the Waco justice of the peace that the nine who were killed in that shoot-out, the nine have officially been ruled a homicide.

So let's move on to another interview here as it pertains to Waco, from one former informant to a current one.

With me, Alex Caine.

Again, Alex Caine, this is not your real name, joining me from a location we can't even reveal, sir.

So, Alex, thank you so much for joining me.

ALEX CAINE, DEA INFORMANT: You're welcome.

BALDWIN: So, I understand you are an undercover officer. You embedded with the Bandidos for two years. And you got a call. You had never ridden a motorcycle, and you went through this entire sort of recruitment, initiation process. What did you have to do to become one?

CAINE: Well, I didn't have to kill anybody, which is a common -- common belief which is not true.

What you got to do is, you got to make yourself indispensable as a cash cow. That's how you get in, where they think that they can use you, and then either keep you or throw you back once they have used you up.

The -- we had good resources behind us. There was five law enforcement units sharing the bill. And I went in as a border runner from the States to Canada and got in through that chapter.

[15:10:11]

BALDWIN: What does that mean? What's a border runner do?

CAINE: He runs drugs, guns, and money across the border, anything that's contraband.

BALDWIN: And you said it's all about being a cash cow. I mean, this is all about making money. CAINE: That's what it's about at first. And if you develop

associations and friendships, then they will want to draw you in more.

Everybody wants to make a dollar off you. So you get to know everybody in the chapter, because, ultimately, you need 100 percent vote to be accepted as a member.

BALDWIN: Can you please explain these patches to me? Because from what I understand -- this is all preliminary -- but this whole thing started over territory over this patch. I mean, how can people die over a patch on the back of a jacket?

CAINE: Because of what it represents, OK?

If they had worn a two-piece patch, like the Cossacks used to wear, then that is acceptable to a 1 percenter club, to an Outlaw club. Once you separate your location, you're saying that you own that state. That's why the Hells Angels have California as a separate rocker at the bottom of their patch.

And you can't have two owners to the same state. Now, the whole Lubbock thing is a proxy war, the same as governments. You got to think of it in terms of government, and world governments, because they're all over the world. The -- once the Cossacks came in with that bottom rocker, they were in trouble.

They were pushed into it by a common enemy. See, in 2013, there was an alliance worked out between the Outlaws and the Bandidos, and a mutual nonaggression pact, so to speak, where one's enemy became the other one's enemy by default. So, if you declared war -- like, you know, if somebody declared war on Israel right now, we're all in it, whether they had done anything to us or not because of agreements. It's the same thing.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: So, I'm hearing you on the rivalries. And even I think I heard you say a minute ago the friendships even forged within each of these gangs

My final question is this as it pertains to what's happening in Waco. You know, there are fears that these different rival gang members are coming to town for some kind of retribution, although police are now saying that's toned down a bit. What -- knowing what you know, what do you realistically think could happen?

CAINE: Well, I can tell you what's not going to happen. There's not going to be other major shoot-outs in Waco.

It was selected. If you look at a map, you will see that Waco is the epicenter of the whole Bandido nation. They had all their major chapters in a ring around Waco. The -- all the way on the east coast -- on the east side, they got Shreveport, Louisiana, and that's where they're out of. In the South, they have got Austin, and then they have got San Antonio more to the south, to block against any Mexican incursion. And they have got Lubbock on the west side. And so when the Hells

Angels got wind of their puppet clubs to go right into the heart of Bandido country and to stir up trouble, they put them right there, which was the ideal place to go to put them to cause the maximum...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: OK. But you say no shoot-outs. And I hope you're right because no one needs any more violence at all.

Alex Caine, I have got to go, but thank you so much for joining me here, currently undercover. Thus, we're not really revealing your location or your name. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate.

CAINE: No problem.

BALDWIN: Just ahead on CNN, a major break in one of London's most daring jewel heists. Hear what investigators discovered in this urgent manhunt and their ages. This is fascinating.

Plus, as ISIS captures the key Iraqi city of Ramadi, the mother of one of the American soldiers killed there says she is heartbroken. And she has written a stern letter to the Obama administration. Hear it next.

And moments ago, Hillary Clinton finally answering the question that Republicans keep stumbling over about the Iraq War. Hear what she says.

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This is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: A terrorist victory rally in an Iraqi city that U.S. troops fought and died to free, the black flag there of ISIS now waving over Ramadi.

So, how significant, how tremendous of a loss is this? Well, it actually depends on who you ask. Secretary of State John Kerry says, don't worry about, the U.S. will get it back. And in a stunning press conference back in April, General Martin Dempsey said this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. MARTIN DEMPSEY, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF CHAIRMAN: The city itself is -- is not symbolic in any way. It's not been declared part of the caliphate on one hand or central to the future of Iraq.

[15:20:02]

But we want to get it back. The issue is not is not brick and mortar. It's about defeating ISIL. So, as I said, this -- you know, I would much rather that Ramadi not fall. But it won't be the end of a campaign should it fall. We have got to get him back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, he would rather get it back, but, again, to quote him, Ramadi is not symbolic in any way.

But if you ask a mother still morning the loss of her son in Ramadi in 2006, you will get a much different story. Here is her response to General Martin Dempsey -- quoting her now -- "I am shaking, and tears are flowing down my cheeks as I watch the news and listen to the insensitive, pain-inflicting comments made by you in regards to the fall of Ramadi. My son and many others gave their future in Ramadi. Ramadi mattered to them."

She went on: "What about the troops who sacrificed their limbs and whose lives will never be the same, our brave warriors who left a piece of themselves in Ramadi?"

Joining me now, Michael Daly, special correspondent for The Daily Beast, who reached out to this mother.

And you had this tremendous conversation. But, first, I just want to begin with her son, Marc Alan Lee. Can you tell me about him?

MICHAEL DALY, THE DAILY BEAST: He was a Navy SEAL. He was a homeschooled kid who wanted to be a professional soccer player. And then he hurt his knee just when he was about to make it. And he went into the SEALs.

And he was just one of those driven, dedicated people. And the time came when he was in Ramadi in August of 2006. And his team, SEAL Team Three, was in Ramadi and they encountered some heavy fire from insurgents. And one of their guys got shot. And he stood up and exposed himself and covered while a medic came up.

Then he stood up and exposed himself again to fire to cover while they got the guy out. He and his team withdrew, and they no sooner got out of the battle scene than they heard there were 30 more insurgents they just battled with were assembled. They went right back, encountered heavy gunfire. And once again he stood up and exposed himself for the sake of his men. And he was killed.

And just before he was killed, he wrote a remarkable letter home I think that everybody should read. He talks about the horrors of war. He talks about that -- I mean, this kid is homeschooled, was not a great writer, and his mother was stunned, because all of a sudden this kid had been like steered into eloquence.

BALDWIN: He let it all...

(CROSSTALK)

DALY: There was just something. And he talked about the sorrow that overcomes someone when they die. He talked about terrible things he had seen. But he also talked about the importance of kindness. And he said

that, you know, I get all the support for everybody saying thank you for doing your part. He said, but you back home have to do your part. And he said that really America's greatness is in ourselves. And he talked about the importance of being decent to each other, being kind to each other, trying to make life better in America for each other and, therefore, make America an even greater place than it is.

BALDWIN: We all need to read the letter. He was a hero. He died helping protect his own.

And so when his mother is watching the news over the course of the last couple of days and seeing this very same place where she lost her son and seeing the black ISIS flag waving, she said it was gut- wrenching.

DALY: And sickening.

BALDWIN: Sickening.

DALY: She said gut-wrenching and sickening. And the thing is, she went back there a year after her son was killed. She went back there to hand-deliver 10,000 Christmas cards to U.S. troops.

BALDWIN: Incredible.

DALY: And they gave her in like a Ziploc bag some the Ramadi soil. And she brought it back, and she keeps it at home. She says it's powdery. It's like talc.

And she's sitting there at home watching on television with that piece of Ramadi in a plastic bag where her son should be, and she's watching that black flag fly over the same city where her son died. And...

BALDWIN: And the Joint -- chairman of the Joint Chiefs saying it's not a symbolic...

DALY: Yes. And he did write to apologize to her.

BALDWIN: Yes.

DALY: But I think that we all have to keep in mind how difficult this must be. When we're talking about, should we have gone to Iraq or not, or whatever, we have got to remember there's so many people who lost kids there. There's so many people who lost friends there, people who lost limbs there.

We have to think about how difficult that must be for them.

BALDWIN: Always mindful. Michael Daly, Daily Beast, thank you for sharing very much.

Next here on CNN: Hillary Clinton is answering reporters' questions after weeks of not talking to the media. She talked about her e-mails and her past support, speaking of, of the war in Iraq -- what Hillary Clinton had to say next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:28:52]

BALDWIN: Hillary Clinton apparently decided one month is long enough to avoid taking questions from the news media. Today in Iowa, she took questions for some very eager reporters.

She was asked about those State Department e-mails she turned over from her private e-mail server. More on that in just a second, but, first, here's what she had to say about the issue that's been tripping up Republican hopefuls as of late, supporting the 2003 war in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Look, I know that there have been a lot of questions about Iraq posed to candidates over the last weeks.

I have made it very clear that I made a mistake, plain and simple. And I have written about it in my book. I have talked about it in the past. And, you know, what we now see a very different and very dangerous situation.

The United States is doing what it can, but, ultimately, this has to be a struggle that the Iraqi government and the Iraqi people are determined to win for themselves.

And we can provide support, but they're going to have to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: CNN senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny there in Iowa for us.

And so we know, back in the day, then-senator, you know, voted in favor of this war. She called her war vote, though, today a mistake. Was there any -- any new ground in what you heard from Hillary Clinton?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Brooke.

There really wasn't any new ground on this. Of course, she is practiced at this Iraq answer.