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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

170 Texas Bikers in Jail After Melee; Interview with Waco PD Sergeant Patrick Swanton; Murder Mystery in Washington, D.C. Aired 12- 12:30p ET

Aired May 19, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:34] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield and welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

We begin this hour with the people our parents warned us about. That would be the Bandidos motorcycle gang, or club as they prefer, and that is not my characterization; it is the group's motto.

Today, police departments all across Texas are being warned that the Bandidos and their arch rival, the Cossacks, two of at least five gangs who were involved in Sunday's blood bath in Waco, are now mobilizing for yet another battle.

But in a news conference CNN just brought to you live in the last hour, a spokesperson for the Waco police said the apparent threat has, quote, "toned down" in the past 24 hours. It's been reported that eight of the nine people killed in the Waco melee were Cossacks, one of them a Bandido, but police are not identifying anybody yet. They say they're having problems notifying next of kin and they're pointing out that the autopsies are still under way. And for that reason, they say they don't know yet who among the dead were killed by fellow bikers and who were killed by police gunfire, if any at all.

Bail is set for a million dollars apiece for these guys. Feast your eyes, folks. These are the 170 bikers who were rounded up when the bloodshed ended, and for now they're all charged with engaging in some kind of organized crime leading to capital murder. It's a lot of faces, it's at lot of processing, and they are getting through it at rapid pace.

I want to bring in CNN's Nick Valencia, who's been on the story from the onset. So, get me up to speed on the latest evidence that we've got in this case, because there are a lot of defendants and a lot of lawyers are going to need to know what the police have and what they still have yet to collect.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A lot of new information in that press conference last hour from the Waco Police Department Sergeant Patrick Swanton, who will be on in just a moment. But what we did learn is that it will be a lengthy process of evidence removal, about 80 vehicles, pick-ups, cars, still remain here behind me. You can see some attached to some of the customers who were having lunch while this shoot-out happened. We also know that there is at least 135 motorcycles still on scene

here. Earlier this morning, when we were driving into our live shot location, we saw some of those motorcycles being remanufactured on the interstate. That has happened over the course of the last two days and will continue over the course of the next several days, Ashleigh?

BANFIELD: Nick, I've been to Waco, I used to live in Texas, and it's not a small town, but it is perhaps not a town that could take 170 perps all in one night and process. So how are they dealing with the court hearings and all of the legal processing, those first appearances that are going to mandatory? Are they halfway through the process? Do we even know?

VALENCIA: Well, that's not the case if you talk to the sheriff. What we heard from the sheriff is he said that he had plenty of space in the jail for anyone else. There was that threat that we were talking about earlier. As we just pan off camera, you can see behind me happening right now, Ashleigh, is some bomb-sniffing dogs checking for explosives, going through the cars, seeing if there's any concern or worry or threat to law enforcement or the public.

But getting back to some of the new information that we heard at this press conference, we knew about the so-called meeting happening between biker gangs. What we learned last hour, though, is that this skirmish may have started outside, where someone may have had their foot run over, also a skirmish may have been going on as well at the same time inside that eventually spilled out, all outside where nine people resulted dead, 18 injured, 170 people still in custody.

You mentioned million dollar bail for each one of those individuals. It is also a lengthy process, but from what we understand, those individuals have been processed through the court system. No one has yet posted bail. But so far, also about those hospitalized, we know we can tell you that initially 18 people were hospitalized, 11 people have been released, 7 people still remain in the hospital. Ashleigh?

BANFIELD: All right. Nick Valencia, thank you for that. Great work on your camera man just catching that investigation that's still in progress.

Because we just learned in the last hour that they're still processing a lot of those vehicles. In fact, in total, about 135 motorcycles from start to finish are going to have to be moved and processed. And many of the vehicles, in fact, that are on that location, are being processed forensically as well. I don't know what kind of dogs those were, but it could be drug sniffing or ballistics as well, because there is just so much evidence from blood spatter to casings to weapons and the list goes on.

[12:05:11] All the things that need to be tagged, marked, collected, photographed, that is a massive crime scene, folks, and a massive crime.

So the guy who's been helping us sort of navigate through this, he's joining us live now. He's a familiar name by now, Sergeant W. Patrick Swanton, face of the Waco Police Department, and he's live with me now.

Sergeant, thank you so much for taking the time. I just watched you live on CNN updating us as to all of these details. And I was really stunned by some of these details that you have that -- this is what got me the most -- that some of these guys are actually being truthful and some certainly aren't, but that there are varying degrees of truth with the people that are being interviewed in the jails. And with 170 guys all facing down this most serious of charges, capital murder, I can only imagine that some of them are going to talk. Is that what you're finding?

SG.T PATRICK SWANTON, WACO, TEXAS, POLICE: I would think so. Obviously with the amount of bail, we believe that they're going to be there for a while. The important thing for us is the safety of our citizens and we believe that that bail will help keep individuals involved in a very violent criminal episode in jail for a little while. That will also give us time to process evidence, be able to identify particular individuals that we really need to focus on. It is a daunting task for our Texas rangers, our PD, the local agencies, everybody that is involved, certainly cooperating, working together, but a lot of work to go yet.

BANFIELD: Yes. Yes. Sergeant, I'm looking at a lot of the faces that have been photographed in the last 24 hours. Just, you know, dozens upon dozens of mugshots being taken and processed and put in the system and then put out into the public. It's astounding, just the virtual number of guys that you've got.

But we all know the code, and that street code is they don't rat on their own. It's organized crime for a reason. But my question is, do you have surveillance video that can do the talking for them?

SWANTON: That I'm not aware of. That's part of the investigative details that they will certainly look for and try to obtain if it is available. I will tell you they are looking into that and seeing what is in either the restaurant next door or the restaurant where the main crime scene is.

BANFIELD: We also had some confirmation, and I heard you earlier calling out the TV networks saying that four of those who were killed were killed by police gunfire, and you were quite clear in suggesting those autopsies aren't done yet, and that that can't be finalized detail.

That's preliminary information that actually a law enforcement source gave to CNN, that four of these people -- but I want to make sure - and by the way, we double checked it once you finished your news conference. We went back to that law enforcement source, and that source is standing by that prelim information suggesting that four of those people were killed possibly in the hail of police bullets.

Will there be additional charges of perhaps attempted murder for those who were firing at the police? And the second part of the question is, with all those people still in the hospital --

SWANTON: Let's work with one question at a time, if you will. BANFIELD: Sure.

SWANTON: The first question you said was -

BANFIELD: Just let me know if some will be charged in the hospital?

SWANTON: The first point that you made was that was a possibility. There are lots of possibilities here. What is important that you understand is that's not fact. What you'll get from the source that is releasing information, which is Waco PD and Texas DPS, is fact. Is there a possibility that more were killed by police? Yes, there is. Is there a possibility that less were killed by police? Yes, there is. It's not fact and that's what you're going to get from us.

BANFIELD: OK, well, I'm glad you cleared that up. And I know, in your press conference a short time ago, you did say more charges could be coming down the pipe. What about those people who are currently being treated in the hospital and those who are just on the verge of being let out? Are they also under guard at the hospital because they also could be facing capital murder charges?

SWANTON: Yes, ma'am. That's correct. Do we expect additional arrests? Most likely. There are individuals that are still at the hospital and, to answer that question, yes, they are under guard.

BANFIELD: They are under guard at the hospital.

Well, listen, I know you're busy and you have a big crime scene, and you know you've got your work cut out for you with that many defendants, I hate to say it, who all look very, very similar. That's going to be a tough road to hoe. So Sergeant, thank you for you time. I hope to get a chance to speak to you again.

SWANTON: Yes, ma'am. Thank you.

BANFIELD: My regards to my fellow Texans down in Waco.

So how do you deal with 170 potential capital murder cases all at once? All with the same crime scene? Where do the prosecutors even begin to build their cases? I'm going to ask three of the best in the business next.

[12:05:00]

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BANFIELD: Proving beyond a reasonable doubt that one person killed another person is a massive task, so how on earth can authorities prove who killed whom in the crazy melee that played out in a Waco, Texas, parking lot and restaurant on a sunny Sunday afternoon?

As you may have heard, no fewer than 170 bikers are each being held on a million dollars bond. Each of them a million dollars. And they're charged at least for now with organized crime in the Texas statute, and that underlying crime there is capital murder. And I don't need to be the one to tell you that capital murder in Texas carries with it the penalty of death as a potential sentence. And I don't need to be the one to tell you that Texas carries out its executions at a pretty rapid rate.

I want to cue the legal team here. CNN's legal analyst Danny Cevallos and Paul Callan are here, and Phil Holloway is joining us from Atlanta. Phil, I want to start with you, because you sent me an e- mail yesterday helping me to understand that new statute and how it's been revised in Texas so that you can have this party to a crime who could ultimately never have fired a shot, not even touched a gun, and still be on trial for his life. Explain?

PHILIP HOLLOWAY, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right, Ashleigh. That's called vicarious criminal liability. Texas actually did away with the old notion of someone being an accessory to the crime. And what they call it now, Ashleigh, is a party to the crime. What that means is if someone helps or participates in even the smallest possible way, then they can be charged with, convicted, and potentially sentenced just the same as if they did it themselves.

[12:15:05] And that, in Texas, as you mentioned, means potentially the death penalty. And having lived in Texas, I went to law school in Texas, I know that Texas juries do not hesitate to impose the death penalty. It's almost like the express lane to the lethal injection chamber.

BANFIELD: So that's a great point because I don't think that those guys down there who are cooling their heels on a million dollars bond have thought about much else since they found that out.

Paul Callan, everybody knows that there is a code among bikers -- you don't turn on your fellow brothers. And I don't think they really want to turn on other bikers either. But if you are one of the 170 faces who are now facing the possibility, the real possibility, of party to a crime in a death penalty state, that does carry them out, juries don't like bikers, are you starting to think you're more willing to turn evidence?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, the worst of the worst, in the way of bad guys, organized criminals, turn sometimes. They cooperate with prosecutors when they're facing life in prison or the death penalty. So even these guys might turn.

I was mentioning to you earlier, I handled the case in Long Island involving the Hell's Angels and the Pagans. And these guys are the real deal. This is not your local old guy riding around on a Harley in your neighborhood. They -- some of the initiation processes involve torturing and killing people to get into some of these motorcycle gangs.

BANFIELD: Well, and the Bandidos called the worse of the worst as well.

CALLAN: Yes, they're serious criminals and they're dangerous gangs.

BANFIELD: Well, look, this is one by one. We're looking at mugshots behind us. But when you look at a big collection of them -- I hate to brush anybody with the same stroke, but they're an awful lot of similarities between these folks. They look very similar. And if I'm a defense attorney, I'm going to say, how do you know it was that guy and not that guy or that guy? They all have goatees and dark hair or that guy. I mean, you got 170 guys who many look very similar.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Defense attorneys are looking at this case as having a lot of promising elements. Here's why. We even saw some footage of some potential suspects lined up sitting where? Right next to each other. Whenever you mass arrest a lot of people, you're going to have problems with witness testimony, even if witnesses decide to testify.

Just as you pointed out, there's going to be difficulty identifying people. When you corral a bunch of suspects or arrestees in one place, you have a problem of possible transference of evidence, maybe even destruction of evidence because of the sheer time it takes to simply process all of these human beings.

BANFIELD: Like you said, let's say someone's gunshot residue, GSR -

CEVALLOS: GSR, yes.

BANFIELD: -- on his hand because he just shot someone. He then is moving his way fast out of that restaurant, pushes tables, chairs, and all the rest out of his way. And the guy behind him does the same thing, pushes tables and chairs with gunshot residue, transfer evidence on his hands.

CEVALLOS: GSR is just an example. It's like dust. If I high five Paul and I've just fired a gun, now Paul has just fired a gun.

BANFILED: Isn't it a great defense?

CALLAN: Yes, but no. Here's how prosecutors get around this -- and the feds have been doing it for years. They're doing it on a state level. They're saying it's a conspiracy. It's a gang related conspiracy. So if you have the gun and you kill somebody and I'm in the conspiracy, I'm as guilty as you are.

BANFIELD: Just like Phil said. Phil, one word answer -- is it kind of like the getaway driver that we always hear about?

HOLLOWAY: Absolutely. Yes, it is.

BANFIELD: Doesn't matter whether you have the GSR or not. If you're in the conspiracy, guys, this is only the tip of the iceberg. So much more to talk about.

Stand by if you will because do have another really big story that's been breaking as well. It is a bizarre story. A house fire in a very, very expensive part of town in Washington, D.C., just blocks, in fact, from the homes of Vice President Biden, and Mr. and Mrs. Clinton. And yet it is a murder mystery scene. There were four bodies inside and one possible suspect is out there right now, and there are hundreds and hundreds of questions.

We're going to let you know about this multimillion-dollar mansion murder mystery and the man who seems to be getting away.

[12:19:02]

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BANFIELD: The murder mystery in Washington, D.C., is growing deeper. Who killed the wealthy husband, the wife, their son, and their housekeeper and then set the home on fire before apparently escaping in the family's Porsche? And then setting it on fire.

It is remarkable story, all of it happening just a few minutes' walk from Vice President Joe Biden's house, where he lives at the Naval Observatory in D.C. And not far from Bill and Hillary Clinton's northwest Washington home as well.

CNN's Gary Tuchman has more from the scene of the crime.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was the middle of the day. Fire breaks out in a home in one of Washington, D.C.'s most posh neighborhoods, blocks away from the vice president's residence and Embassy Row.

DISPATCHER 1: 3201 Woodland Drive Northwest.

DISPATCHER 2: There's fire in the attic.

TUCHMAN: Four people are found dead inside, tragic. And as it turns out very sinister.

Washington, D.C.'s police chief.

CHIEF CATHY LANIER, WASHINGTON, DC METROPOLITAN POLICE: The fire appears to be intentionally set.

TUCHMAN: But before it was set, police also say three of the four victims had suffered blunt force trauma. It has been declared a quadruple homicide. The victims, 46-year-old Savvas Savapoulos, a CEO of company called American Iron Works. His 47-year-old wife Amy, a Washington philanthropist and socialite. Their 10-year-old son Phillip, and a woman named Veralicia Figueroa, their 57-year-old housekeeper.

(on camera): Veralicia Figueroa was one of two family housekeepers. The other housekeeper says she too was supposed to be at this house when this all happened. Because she wasn't because of a strange text message.

NELITZA GUTIERREZ, HOUSEKEEPER: I almost had a heart attack. It's very hard to believe.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): The other housekeeper is Nelitza Gutierrez. About three hours before the fire broke out, she receives this text from Amy Savapoulos. It reads in part, "I am making sure you do not come today." And the day before she received a voicemail from Savvas Savapoulos, telling her not to come the next day because his wife is sick.

GUTIERREZ: Sometimes you never understand, you know, or this thing happen, but I'm lucky that I'm still here.

TUCHMAN (on camera): Police say no evidence was found of forced entry into this home. But was anything taken? Was it ransacked? Because of the fire damage, authorities say they don't know.

(voice-over): So what is going on here? Were the voicemail and text sent out under duress? And why are police not saying which three of the four people suffered blunt force trauma and which one did not and what that all means?

[12:25:04] Police are staying relatively quiet.

(on camera): Gentlemen, are there any updates you can give us?

OFFICER: I can't give you anything, I'm sorry.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): But the D.C. police have released this video of what they call a person of interest. It is literally and figuratively a shadowy image of somebody walking behind the building after possibly taking the Savapoulos' Porsche 911 from the crime scene. The car was found ditched in a Maryland church parking lot where it was torched. Authorities have released pictures of the car.

(on camera): As we speak, police are going through evidence. They're literally going through the garbage. They're also looking at the other cars the family has here, a Range Rover, an Audi, and a vehicle in the garage known as a Mosler, which is a very rare and expensive sports car.

(voice-over): The sifting through the trash is meticulous. The odor of the smoke still sifting through the neighborhood obvious, as police continue working to solve what is a deadly mystery.

Gary Tuchman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: An amazing story. Our thanks to Gary Tuchman.

How furious would you be if you found out the hard-earned money that you had donated to cancer research was instead paid for someone's lavish trip to Vegas or to Disneyland or a sweet salary? Well, if you are worried about your blood pressure rising, you may want to skip our next investigative story. But if you want to see the folks getting busted for that kind of bad behavior, stick around. It's a Drew Griffin awesome investigation.

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