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Secrets from bin Laden; Oil Sick Spreading; Rand Paul Filibustering. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 20, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00] ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Very prominent wildlife organizations across the world that support what he's doing.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: All right.

LAVANDERA: So it's an uphill fight, but it's a very nuanced debate.

BLITZER: Well, we'll continue to watch what's going on. Ed Lavandera, thanks very much.

I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. The news continues next on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf Blitzer, thank you so much. Great to be with you. I'm Brooke Baldwin. And you're watching CNN.

Want to begin this hour with unprecedented access into this secret treasure trove. This is what was found in Osama bin Laden's hideout. U.S. intelligence just releasing the biggest stash yet of documents seized by Navy SEALs during that deadly raid on bin Laden's compound in Pakistan four years ago now. And what's coming out here is absolutely incredible. Of these thousands of documents recovered from his computers and digital media, one letter in particular stands out given the recent rise of ISIS across the Mideast. And it turns out Osama bin Laden wasn't exactly hot on this whole idea of establishing an Islamic state to begin with. He even wrote to his followers specifically asking them to stop pushing for that.

We also now know that while planning the mass killing of Americans, the world's most wanted terrorist was also apparently a devoted family man, spending hours writing letters to his wives and children. He was excited about his son's upcoming wedding, even asked one of his wives when she was coming back to him. And this is just the start. A lot to talk about.

Bob Baer, CNN intelligence and security analyst and former CIA operative joins me, and James Phillips, Middle East analyst and senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation who, by the way, his own writings were discovered in bin Laden's treasure trove.

So, gentlemen, welcome to both of you.

And, Bob, let me just kick it off with what struck me most, you know, his obsession with killing Americans and not as much furthering, you know, this notion of an Islamic state. Let me just read part of what he wrote (INAUDIBLE) was this. Quote, "you should ask them to avoid insisting on the formation of an Islamic state at the time being but to work on breaking the power of our main enemy by attacking the American embassies in the African countries such as Sierra Leone, Togo and mainly to attack the American oil companies."

Why do you think, Bob Baer, he was so against this motion of expanding the Islamic state, unlike what we're seeing now?

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Brooke, I just looked at the books he had on his bookshelf and what he had on hard drives and this man was not - obviously he was never politically sophisticated, but I never realized how naive he was.

BALDWIN: How do you mean?

BAER: Well, I mean it's - you know, he's - he was reading, you know, all these conspiracy theories. You know, even conspiracy theories about 9/11.

BALDWIN: That's right.

BAER: And if anybody knows who did 9/11, he was the one. So why was he even bothering with these crazy books? And, you know, just the finality of it all. You know, writing his family and not understanding the power of the Islamic state, he was not a sophisticated man.

BALDWIN: Well, not necessarily all (INAUDIBLE) considering, James, your writings were part of this treasure trove. Your paper, the evolving al Qaeda threat, apparently on bin Laden's must read list. I mean when did you first - did you just first hear about this as all this broke today? And what was your first response?

JAMES PHILLIPS, MIDDLE EAST ANALYST: Well, I was shocked that he actually had it on his computer. I assumed that one of his acolytes (ph) found it and sent it to him. it was something - it was testimony I had prepared back in 2006 about the evolving threat posed by al Qaeda. And I was struck by some of the documents that were released that indicate that he was much closely - much more closely involved in the day to day operations and in offering advice to far flung units than had been supposed back in - when he was killed. And it's - it's clear that although he isolated himself very much from his troops, that electronically he was connected through thumb drives and couriers and very much in charge of many of al Qaeda operations.

BALDWIN: To you, James, let me stay with you, do you agree with Bob and this sort of notion that he is less than - or he was less than sophisticated? I mean when you read some of the details about how he was this meticulous editor, writing and rewriting papers 50 different times, even talking about the CIA drone program and saying, hang on, maybe we should make trips around the Afghan/Pakistan border on cloudier day, do you think he wasn't very sophisticated either?

PHILLIPS: In some he - some of his choices of reading material was very curious. Almost like it was pleasure reading for him to see, you know, what the infidel - what stupid theories the infidels were coming up with on - about who attacked on 9/11 or other idea logs came up with. And also - but the banality did come through, particularly when they mentioned some of the al Qaeda applications where they asked the candidates, what are your hobbies, who should we contact in case you become a martyr.

[14:05:25] BALDWIN: That's right.

PHILLIPS: That - that was kind of eye-opening.

BALDWIN: That's right. That's right.

And then, Bob, you have the - I would never say the softer side and I have a hard time even imagining this man had a heart, but when you read about these letters, you know, looking forward to his son's upcoming wedding, hadn't seen one of his sons in a while and was talking about, you know, remembering how his eyes felt when he last saw his son and reaching out to his wives. What do you - how do you read into all of that on the personal side of bin Laden?

BAER: Well, you know, I keep on - you know, initially, I thought this for years, is just the - again, the unsophisticated way of looking at the world, thinking that taking down the World Trade Center would better the fate of Muslims. And he was a human being, whether we want to admit it or not, and - he wasn't - he wasn't completely - but this is what's so worrisome about this - the Islamic state and bin Laden is, these are people with families and they truly believe this apocalyptic view of the world. And, I mean, how they get sucked into it is frankly incomprehensible to me, but they do. I mean bin Laden did have other choices. He had a lot of money at one time. He could had gone off to London and lived a normal life but he really thought that he could change, alter history, by, you know, a handful of attacks against the west. And, of course, he turned out to be absolutely wrong. And I think if he really seriously read history, he would have figured out that this wasn't going to work.

BALDWIN: But, Bob, let me just end with where we began, and it was really my question on his obsession with attacking Americans and, you know, saying especially advice to AQAP, don't attack, you know, local police, which, in fact, wasn't necessarily advice that people took. And he didn't care as much about expanding this notion of an Islamic state, which we know now, ISIS coming out of al Qaeda and Iraq. Why do you think that so totally changed when you look at the evolution of terrorism now?

BAER: Well, I think you have to look at the Islamic state as al Qaeda 2.0, but in the sense that it actually believes that owning territory and taking the battle not so much to the United States but to their opponents, the Shia Muslims, if you like, or the autocratic states in the gulf, which clearly, after the fall of Ramadi, the Islamic state is doing a lot better than bin Laden ever did.

BALDWIN: Bob Baer and James Phillip, thank you both very much.

PHILLIPS: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up, a retired police officer and a city employee among those arrested in that biker shoot-out in Waco. We'll talk live with a lawyer who has defended Hell's Angels and the Bandidos bikers in the past.

Plus, a stunning discovery in the death of this Russian whistleblower. A rare poison found in his body. Was he assassinated?

And, speaking of Ramadi, it's an interview coming up you don't want to miss. A mother, whose son died in the very city ISIS just took over, says it is heartbreaking to watch what is happening. She will join me live and a letter she wrote to General Martin Dempsey.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:12:55] BALDWIN: Breaking news here on CNN. The Coast Guard says an oil slick just about nine miles long is now spreading off the coast of Santa Barbara, California, here. All of this after a pipeline ruptured, spilling oil into the sea. Let's go to Santa Barbara County there, along the ocean. I've got Paul Vercammen.

And, Paul, can you see any of it in any of the waters there?

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, absolutely. If you look right over my should, there it is, Brooke. I'm standing at Refugio State Beach here in Santa Barbara County, a pristine stretch of coastline. This beach now shut down. The pipeline actually rupturing onshore and the oil then flowing onto this beach behind me and into the water.

One of the concerns, it's now spreading east toward the cities of Galine (ph) and Santa Barbara. It is not near those city, but the primary area of focus next from here is El Capitan, another state beach. Of course as we move into memorial weekend, many people had made reservations for the campgrounds. This is a popular area for shore fishing. And even going out and getting shellfish. Fish and game here in California has banned all fishing from here and the collecting of shellfish.

I do not see right in front of me any shore birds or any fish that have washed up with oil on them, but the wildlife, of course, is, you know, definitely threatened in this spill and they are now working hard out at sea with booms and skimming the oil and here on land literally grabbing rakes and raking together globs of tar and throwing it in plastic bags and hauling it out of here, Brooke.

BALDWIN: It's giving me flashbacks of standing on the shores of Lake Pontchartrain looking at tar balls from a number of years ago.

Paul Vercammen, seeing all those people with those rakes and the booms, as you point out, a lot of people want to get in that water, right - it's gorgeous where you are - over the Memorial Day weekend. We'll stay in close contact with you. Paul Vercammen on that oil pipe burst. Thank you.

Still ahead, we do have some new revelations today out of Waco, Texas, about that deadly biker gang shoot-out. We are now learning a member of law enforcement is among one of these faces. One of the 170 people arrested. Also, what investigators found at the scene after that shoot-out, as many as 1,000 weapons.

[14:15:14] Plus, what we've learned now about former Patriots star Aaron Hernandez and his alleged role in a prison fight already. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: A police sergeant in Waco, Texas, just revealed to CNN that investigators found as many as 1,000 - one thousand weapons at and around that restaurant involved in Sunday's biker shout-out. Nine people were shot to death, 18 people injured, 170 charged with engaging in organized crime.

This sergeant in Waco says police found weapons in bags of chips and toilets at the Twin Peaks restaurant.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. W. PATRICK SWANTON, WACO, TEXAS POLICE: A lot of those are maybe a normal pocketknife. There are very aggressive assault knives. There are weapons such as firearms. The highest caliber weapon we've recovered is an AK-47. Family clubs don't carry the kind of weaponry we've seen in there this morning.

[14:20:04] During my walk through, they were hidden in the stools of the restaurant seating area. They were hidden in the kitchen. They were hidden in the bathrooms. We were - I will - quite honestly, we were amazed at the number of weapons that we found.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I mean the details that keep coming out here. Waco Police also revealed the names of the nine killed, including Matthew Mark Smith, a 27-year-old father who worked at Geek Squad and was a member of the Semitars (ph) motorcycle club. As for the 170 bikers behind bars, it turns out one of the suspected lawbreakers was a law enforcement - law enforcer. Martin Lewis (ph) is a retired vice detective for San Antonio Police and his Facebook page has pictures of him in Bandidos gear. That is one of those two biker gangs, according to police documents, that was involved in that initial gunfire.

So, let me bring in criminal defense attorney Robert Draskovich, who, in the past, has represented members of the Bandidos, the other gang police documents show was involved in this shootout.

So, Robert, welcome, first.

ROBERT DRASKOVICH, ATTORNEY WHO DEFENDED HELL'S ANGELS AND BANDIDOS: Thank you.

BALDWIN: So you, as we point out, have defended these bikers before. And when you hear the details about, you know, where the weapons were hidden and the 1,000 weapons recovered and the sheer numbers of people who have been booked, I mean have you ever seen anything quite like this before? DRASKOVICH: I represented the Hell's Angels back in - from a shooting

that occurred this 2002. In that case, 45 individuals were charged. I have never seen a prosecution this large, however. This - I'm sure this is making history.

BALDWIN: And because it probably is making history, I've read a lot about what you defended back with Hell's Angels, you know, you've said because of the mass incarceration, a lot these guys will probably end up walking. Why is that?

DRASKOVICH: Government overreach. They're basically biting off more than they can chew. One thing I'd like to point out though is, irregardless (ph) of what we hear coming from police, we should never take that as gospel. They generally like to make things black and white, and there's always a second side to every story.

BALDWIN: So, OK, I hear you on that, but let's just like - when you go back to what happened on Sunday and you think of all of these people, and I mean we're scrolling these mug shots after mug shots, how does law enforcement, when they go through the months long, I imagine, booking process, et cetera, how do they even begin to determine who did what and when and where and charges?

DRASKOVICH: What they often do is they try and lean on the people that are in custody to cooperate with them in order to further their prosecution. That happens in Waco, that happens in Las Vegas, in happens in every prosecution that occurs in this country. And I expect that that's how law enforcement is going to begin to try and put the pieces together how they want them to be put together.

BALDWIN: What do you think - I've talked to a lot of people in the last couple of days who talk about money and drugs and territory and the bottom rocker here on the back of their, you know, jackets. Can you just please cut through it all for me and tell me what the crux of this fight was really about?

DRASKOVICH: You know, I don't know what the crux of this fight is about. You know, obviously, there is some essence of criminality. We have a large group of people, in this case it's a biker's club, and there may be a small group of people within that larger group that's engaged in criminal conduct. The bad thing is oftentimes the state, the government, the federal government tries to take what this small group is doing and stretch it out over the entire organization or over the entire movement. And I think that's what we're going to see is happening in this case.

BALDWIN: When you hear from one of the police sergeants in Waco talking about this is one of the more gruesome scenes he's ever seen in his lifetime, referring to the bloodshed in that parking lot, and you try to put yourself in the shoes of any sort defense attorneys representing these criminals, how do you argue on their behalf?

DRASKOVICH: Well, what happens is obviously there's an investigation going on right now. This case is receiving a great deal of media attention. I have learned, though, year in and year out, that what you hear on TV and what the police announce at the outset is not really what we wind up with at the end. I mean that's why we have jury trials, that's why we have juries, that's why we have courtrooms where both sides of a case, as in this case, can then be presented and explained. Right now we're just hearing the one side. Eventually you will hear the other side and a group of 12 people will determine what really happened. They'll find the truth.

BALDWIN: That's right. That's right. Innocent until proven guilty. Robert Draskovich, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.

I do want to pivot and go straight to Washington -

DRASKOVICH: Thank you for having me.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

We're going to go live here to the Senate floor where presidential candidate, Senator Rand Paul, standing here talking. He's carrying out what he calls a filibuster over the Patriot Act.

So, let me bring in Athena Jones.

And, you know, we have seen this before. But technically this is not a filibuster, correct?

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Brooke, this is not technically a filibuster because the Senate is still debating a trade bill. They haven't even moved on to this bill to extend the NSA's ability to collect phone - or to have access to phone records of Americans in their quest for intelligence purposes. So he's not technically - they're not technically on that NSA bill.

[14:25:15] He has taken to the floor. He is calling this a filibuster and his - he's also sending out - his campaign is sending out e-mails to supporters saying, you know, as you read this, I will be on the Senate floor to launch my filibuster to stop any reauthorization of this Patriot Act, the section of the Patriot Act or how the Patriot Act generally. So he's trying to raise money off of this even though this is not technically a filibuster.

He has a time limit here and we don't know for sure how long he's going to speak. His office says he'll speak until he can speak no longer. But we don't know if that means all night or what it really means. We're asking for more details. But I can tell you he will have to stop speaking one hour into when the Senate gavels in tomorrow. That is where there will be a procedural vote to end debate on the trade bill, the bill they're on now, and proceed - in debate on that and proceed to a vote. So he's on the floor and he knows how to get the attention of all of us in the press. He's not technically filibustering, but I guess in the end it doesn't matter if he's getting his point across.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: He's done this before. Thirteen - it was like a 13 hour filibuster he talked and talked and talked. JONES: Right, and that was about drones. He has a problem with the way the NSA has been doing its job and these are two areas that he has a big problem with. Of course, the House has passed a bill called the USA Freedom Act that would reform the way the National Security Agency conducts its program. It would take the phone records out of the hands of the government and put them in the hands of the phone companies. It would require the intelligence agencies to go through a special FISA court to get access to those records.

But Senator Paul wants to see much bigger reforms. There are a lot of people, a lot of Republicans on this side of the aisle, on this side of The Hill, I should tell you, and Democrats who support that USA Freedom Act that reforms the system. He is not one of them. That's why he's taken to the floor now to oppose this as strenuously as he can and for as long as he can. And, again, he's making sure that his supporters around the country, his campaign is making sure that they know he's up to this, Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK. We will have you - have you keep us posted, Athena Jones. Senator Rand Paul talking and talking and talking there on the Senate floor. Thank you so much. We'll come back to you.

Meantime, we've got to go to Chicago, coming up, following some breaks news here. Look at these crowds. Look at these pictures. All these people have amassed together. This is a protest over wages outside of - this is McDonald's headquarters. Quickly, quickly growing in size here. We'll take you there for a live report, get to the heart of the matter in Chicago, coming up.

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