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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Bin Laden Papers Released; Waco Needs Lawyers; Bikers Remain in Jail. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired May 20, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Watching all the clips of Letterman has been delightful over the last week.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, that's been really fun, too. That's true.

Thanks, everyone, for joining us AT THIS HOUR.

BERMAN: LEGAL VIEW with Ashleigh Banfield starts now.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

It has been four years and 18 days, still counting, since Osama bin Laden was gunned down in his Pakistani hideout by United States Navy SEALs. And his grimly fascinating secrets and quirks and his bizarre passions are just starting to really pour out. This morning, United States intelligence put out the biggest stash yet of documents seized in the bin Laden compound raid that night back in May of 2011. May 2nd to be exact. What did they get that night? Documents that reveal the world's most wanted terrorist was a devoted family man who worried about climate change and who collected reports from American think tanks. And that's just the beginning.

We also got a look at the al Qaeda job application form - yes, there was one - that asks for a family contact, quote, "in case you become a martyr." Kind of like the al Qaeda version of the next of kin.

I want to stop here and I want to bring in CNN's national security analyst Peter Bergen, who is bringing this trove of information to light, as well our own CNN colleague Nic Robertson, who has spent much of his career reporting on terror in general and in particular on al Qaeda and he was in Pakistan the night of that fateful takedown.

Thank you to you both.

Peter, for starters, congratulations, this is just an unbelievable report. I want to start with the biggest thing that stood out to me, and that was that bin Laden seemed to, in these documents, reveal that he was desperately trying to get his followers to focus only on killing Americans and not be so wound up in this whole caliphate, forming an Islamic state, which I think as we all know now, nobody seemed to really care much about that.

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes, I mean he was saying to his either groups affiliated with al Qaeda or other militants, you know, it's too early to create an Islamic state. We have too many enemies. That's something we should think about, you know, in the distant future. Of course ISIS, which wasn't around at the time he was writing these documents, had a very, very different vision of how to go about things. And so for bin Laden, it was prioritizing attacks on the United States, not creating some Islamic state in the Middle East.

BANFIELD: Nic, can you weigh in on some of the material showing that the CIA drone attacks were of grave concern to bin Laden? In fact, I think he said the quote, "this is concerning and exhausting us." It seems the American government released those kinds of details a while ago, and this really does prove the drone attacks were working.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. I mean intelligence intercepts that we've been told about from concerns that al Qaeda and other Taliban commanders have in the field that they're being targeted by drones, and it's hard to escape the drones, we've been told about those in the past. So here we have bin Laden saying the same thing, which kind of also tells us that he was still in touch, although he was holed up in Abbottabad, he really was still in touch with those commanders in the field, because he was clearly getting to hear the same things, that the drone strikes were effective. He was telling his operatives that they should not go out or not plan big operations or go out in big numbers unless there was heavy cloud cover so that the drones couldn't see them. So this really kind of does, again, add to that picture that he still was in close communication with at least some of al Qaeda members on the ground.

BANFIELD: Peter, jump in here with the Seymour Hersh reporting that made huge headlines last week, the famous reporter who came up with this idea, with sources, that suggested Pakistan was in on the bin Laden detainment all along and just handed him over to the Americans and there wasn't this mass firefight. The document trove that you've released today suggests something very different.

PETER: Well, there's no evidence for almost every one of Seymour Hersh's 10,000-word piece. You know, it's basically the idea that somehow the Pakistanis and the Americans cooperated to fake the SEAL raid and bin Laden was a prisoner in Abbottabad for five years. Well, there's no - you know, bin Laden was writing, you know, memos and sending letters to his family and friends and colleagues. There's nothing in the documents to suggest that he was a prisoner in this Abbottabad compound held by the Pakistani military, which is one of the principle assertions of Hersh's piece. So, you know, the - the - you know, the piece doesn't hold up to any of the facts that we know.

BANFIELD: And then here was another fascinating bit of information among the many, and there's just too many to list right now. But, Nic, the fact that bin Laden was in close contact with his family members, seemed very much in love, at least with one of his many wives and couldn't wait to see her again, if that was going to happen at all, it didn't according to the material that we have now. But that his son, Hamza, was really being tapped to succeed him at the helm of al Qaeda. What did the documents suggest?

[12:05:18] ROBERTSON: Yes, that Hamza and Hamza's mother, one of bin Laden's wives, the one that he was writing to saying that he was passionately looking forward to seeing her again, Hamza and that - that - and Hamza's mother were being held in Iran for about a decade. Certainly that did come to light many, many years after September the 11th attacks. But the idea that Hamza could be stepping in - one day into bin Laden's shoes, that he was being - that he was sort of being groomed for, that the chosen one, again, shows bin Laden's number one, his view that he might not be around forever but really that he wanted to continue his dynasty and he was writing to his son and his son was writing back to him. He was very much looking forward to seeing his father again. It had been a long time since he'd been in touch with his father. But this is such a divergent sort of bin Laden, if you will, from the one who was also talking about, you know, killing Americans, killing them in large numbers, and had authored plans to do precisely that.

BANFIELD: Just remarkable material. And as I just mentioned, gentlemen, this is just the surface. There's just so much material, Peter, in the stash that you're reporting on today. And, Nic, thank you so much for your insight as well.

By the way, if you want to read more on this, Nic and Peter have done great work and we've got extensive reporting on cnn.com with a whole bunch of other material, including the financial problems, yes, he treated it like a business and he was real worried about revenue. So you're going to have to read up on that. It's just incredible.

And we're also working on that massive story in Texas as we learn more about who may have been behind the biker gang shoot-out. Wait until you hear about this man. A pretty fascinating look, even a more fascinating biography. A Waco police sergeant will join us with the very latest on the investigation and he'll reveal the significance behind that mugshot you just saw.

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[12:10:30] BANFIELD: Desperately needed right now in Waco, Texas, lawyers. And not just one or two, a whole slew of them because there are so many people who are sitting in jail right now on a million dollars bond that the district court is now reaching out to other counties, I'm not kidding here, and they're asking any court-appointed attorney who might have a hand free right now to come to Waco and pick up some of these biker gang shoot-out suspects, even if you're not a court-appointed attorney. They need anybody they can get. They are low on bodies, folks, because 170 members of various motorcycle gangs all held on that big old bail, a million bucks, they are still locked up in Waco. Kind of hard to post a million bucks. And this is three days after that parking lot gun fight that ended with nine people dead.

One of the bikers who was rounded up after the deadly brawl is someone who probably should know better. That is a great picture. It is intriguing. But the picture isn't anywhere near as intriguing as his background. A retired detective. Are you kidding me? A policeman. A former San Antonio detective named Martin Lewis. Pictures on his Facebook page showing him wearing his Bandidos motorcycle club gear. Come on, detective, really? And should the people of Waco be nervous that their city is now a

biker battlefield? A former federal agent says no. That motorcycle club usually prefer to lie low and then stay out of the view of law enforcement.

So much to deal with. I want to get Sergeant W. Patrick Swanton in here. He is with the Waco Police Department. He's been doing a great job of keeping us updated on all of the details.

First and foremost, sergeant, thank you very much for coming back to talk to me today. How about all those cell phones? I just - I'm so curious about the number of cell phones with 170 people arrested, that you may have been able to collect and bag and tag and get a warrant for to see what all that texting was about, not only the day of the arrest, but more importantly the day before?

SGT. W. PATRICK SWANTON, WACO, TEXAS POLICE DEPARTMENT: Yes. Certainly there is a wealth of knowledge that can be gleaned from the information on the scene and information that we have collected as far as evidentiary value. It's a long process. There's a lot that we'll need search warrants. There's vehicles that need search warrants. It is a meticulous, it's going to be a slow and tedious process, but something that we think will help our case investigation, obviously.

BANFIELD: Have you gotten any warrants on those cell phones yet or made any headway in actually tapping in to find out? Because, listen, if you want conspiracy on 170 defendants, cell phones are a real good way of getting it.

SWANTON: I appreciate you advising us that, and I will tell you, we got a pretty sharp bunch of detectives here and that is certainly something that they have already checked on. But I would ask that -

BANFIELD: Did you get the warrants yet?

SWANTON: Yes, what I'd ask you to understand is, obviously, case integrity will be very important for us, so I won't discuss the intimacies of the case, if you will.

BANFIELD: OK. How about this part?

SWANTON: Sure.

BANFIELD: And I completely respect that you are in a very busy job right now with a lot of - a lot of moving parts.

The former detective from San Antonio, what on earth is going on? Did any of your members know of him and - I mean were you as surprised as I was to see that?

SWANTON: I just heard you mention that a minute ago. Quite honestly, I think it's pretty shameful. I want to make sure that citizens understand, the individuals that were at Twin Peaks Sunday morning, Sunday afternoon when this occurred, were members of a criminal biker gang. The clubs are totally different from what we call the gangs that were here Sunday. This is not your let's go for a leisurely ride and enjoy the sunshiny days. These are individuals that were committing criminal acts and this is totally different from somebody that might just ride a motorcycle for the pleasure. We understand that not everybody that rides a motorcycle is a criminal. The bunch that was here Sunday, involved in the killing of nine individuals, it doesn't get much more criminal than that and it's shameful that one of those individuals may have been a form police officer. It makes me sick to my stomach.

BANFIELD: And, sergeant, and I think it makes a lot of people really, you know, scratch their heads on that one.

Last question, and it's about the legal representation and the work that prosecutors need to do. First and foremost, a shortage of defense attorneys and a big all call out there for people to come in and lend a hand. Number two, is the D.A. even able to get in and start doing those necessary interrogations? Are they making any headway in interviewing the 170 people cooling their heels in the jail?

[12:15:23] SWANTON: Yes, that is something that is - that's actually part of our initial investigation that our detectives, the Texas Rangers, the Texas Department of Public Safety criminal intelligence division, we have federal agencies such as the ATF, the FBI, they've got a lot of leg work in front of them. They're going to work to get that information. There is a lot of work yet to be done.

And I want to, if I have a minute, I'd like to go back and talk a little bit about, this is the difference between a club and a gang. We have recovered up to 1,000 weapons at Twin Peak. A lot of those are maybe a normal pocket knife. There are very aggressive assault knives. There are weapons such as firearms. The highest caliber weapon we've recovered is an AK-47.

BANFIELD: Wow.

SWANTON: Family clubs don't carry the kind of weaponry we've seen in there this morning. During my walk through, family club members aren't going to go and hide firearms in bags of chips. They're not going to hide firearms in the toilets. That is not a family club. These were vicious gang members that were in our city Sunday.

BANFIELD: Just to be clear, you definitely found weapons hiding in bags of chips, weapons hiding in toilets? Where else did you find them hiding?

SWANTON: You name it, they were there. They were hidden in the stools of the restaurant seating area. They were hidden in the kitchen. They were hidden in the bathrooms. We were - I will - quite honestly, we were amazed at the number of weapons that we found hidden in place places inside that restaurant.

BANFIELD: And do you think, sir, that that was hidden in a hurry or hidden in the days leading up to this, which would suggest something far more sinister than an accidental fight that just escalated?

SWANTON: No. No, it was hidden. You could tell some of them were - they were running and it was like, where do I put this. BANFIELD: OK.

SWANTON: And it - not very well hidden, but, no, we believe it happened during the melee and after the melee before police could get in there.

BANFIELD: You're fascinating me by releasing this material that an AK- 47 was found and a thousand weapons were recovered, especially that they were hidden like that. Is there any other little nugget that you have found remarkable? I mean you've been in this business long enough to know sometimes evidence stands out, not just in what it is but how you get it. What else have you recovered from all those vehicles and from that site?

SWANTON: Yes, you know, it's just I think the nugget that you will get from this is the sheer volume of weapons that we've recovered from the Twin Peaks restaurant.

BANFIELD: Well, listen, you really do have your work cut out for you and I hope you have all hands on deck and lot of O.T. in your budget. Sergeant Swanton, thanks for being here.

SWANTON: Yes, ma'am. Thank you for having us.

BANFIELD: I really appreciate the work he's doing and then the rest of his colleagues on that force as well.

So, wow. That's a shock. A thousand weapons. Imagine what it's like to process all of those. That's a heck of a lot of forensics. More than we'd even thought.

Coming up, again, the cell phones, because if you were texting someone, let's throw down tomorrow, that is not good when the warrant breaks open that info for your case. Going to talk legal, next.

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[12:22:02] BANFIELD: It's been decades since Waco, Texas, was making big news and, boy, has it been big in the news this week. A shootout leaving nine people dead, 170 people facing capital murder under a conspiracy-like statute. So that crime scene is big and awful and messy and it needed to be processed and they needed days to do it and then, at Twin Peaks restaurant comes the other job, and that is cleaning it up. The new video that we have for you right now, this is the job that these guys are left to do because there were so many injuries and deaths, that it was literally a battlefield, blood stains everywhere. And so now this business that more than likely wants to get back up and running if it can deal with its franchisee issues, which is also a problem, this is what they're left doing, trying to get rid of the evidence, now that the evidence is officially logged, tagged and filed. Now they just want to get back to business.

Joey Jackson, our HLN legal analyst, is here with former prosecutor Dan Schorr.

OK, former prosecutor Dan Schorr, I've been talking about these cell phones like crazy because every time I see that video from the helicopter of all them bikers texting away, waiting for their zip ties and waiting to be processed and taken off to the hoosegow, I'm thinking, who are you texting? What are you saying? And, more importantly, what did you say yesterday?

DAN SCHORR, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Exactly, because the theory of the prosecution is there are so many people, but there's a large criminal organization, so it doesn't necessarily matter what actions each person took as long as they were communicating with other people, acting with other people and engaging in this violent shootout.

BANFIELD: Conspiring. Planning.

SCHORR: Absolutely. So any communication with other people before that were meeting up, we're going to have this conflict or I'm part of this biker gang that, as the sergeant just said, is a criminal organization, that's all very important evidence for the prosecution.

BANFIELD: Well, Joey, no one is expecting that someone says on his cell phone, I am going to likely capitally murder several victims tomorrow at the event, but they do say other things like, threats, plans, if the meeting goes awry, bring your blank blank weapon or AK- 47 or pack as much as you can, we are not letting this stand. All these kinds of statements.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely. Very important because what happens, Ashleigh, is that any jury, once a jury's impanelled, provided their indicted, the matter moves forward, can draw reasonable inferences using their common sense, which seasoned prosecutors like Dan Schorr will remind jurors to do constantly. And particularly when you have the element of secreting different types of weapons, generally you don't secret weapons unless you intend to use them for purposes of - that are pretty bad. However -

BANFIELD: Did you hear that sergeant, 1,000 weapons.

JACKSON: Yes.

BANFIELD: A thousand weapons.

SCHORR: Hidden all over the restaurant.

BANFIELD: It's like 10 or it's like five weapons per person arrested almost, and one of them is - that is an AK.

JACKSON: Yes. But - and I want to put a big "but" here. I think certainly people who engage in activities like this need to be prosecuted, but we have to be very careful that people are being prosecuted properly. Why do I say that? In this country, you don't prosecute people simply for their associations. You are permitted and allowed to associate. And so it's important that particular criminal activity be ascribed to the individuals involved, otherwise it's problematic. And so before we say, oh, this retired detective was involved and he did something really bad, we have to find out what specifically did he do? Was he texting? Did he know, if he did text, of anything that was going to occur of the criminal variety? BANFIELD: And that's that conspiracy I was talking about.

[12:25:21] SCHORR: Right.

BANFIELD: If you're wearing the Bandidos colors, the three patches, and you're there and you were texting the day before about all of these things, retired detective or unemployed, it doesn't make a difference, you're faying capital murder.

SCHORR: Right, once you're a part of the criminal organization, you're responsible for all the acts of the criminal organization on that day. But Joey's right, you still have to ascribe some specific conduct to an individual to make him part of this criminal enterprise. And that's going to be the challenge of the prosecution, sorting this all out with so many defendants.

BANFIELD: Can't imagine the job they have.

Dan, Joey, thank you both.

JACKSON: A pleasure, Ashleigh.

SCHORR: Thank you.

BANFIELD: It's just a fascinating case no matter how you slice it.

The Waco shooting's not the only biker story that's making headlines today either. There's an undercover New York City police detective who is accused in taking part in a biker versus driver melee in New York, and that case is now on trial. And you will remember this. It made huge headlines. Dramatic video from 2013. Detective Wojciech Braszczok facing assault charges in this attack on an SUV driver while he was off duty. The chase went on. That SUV with a driver, his wife and baby in the car, basically menaced and terrorized on the streets of New York trying to get away and then watch, smash, smash.

Again, there's a baby in the car, folks. There's a baby in there. A two-year-old. And a wife screaming. He was dragged out, beaten. He required stitches. This was such a horrifying situation. And CNN has just obtained the 911 call that was made from the passenger and the driver in the car and you can hear the terror in their voices.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROSLYN NG: We have a baby in the car! Stop!

911 OPERATOR: Hello?

NG: Oh my God! Stop! We have a baby in the car!

911 OPERATOR: Hello?

Oh my God! Stop! We have a baby in the car! Stop!

911 OPERATOR: Tell me what happened. How were you attacked? Tell me what happened. NG: We were driving down Westside Highway and a bunch of motorcyclists just surrounded us and started hitting our car and smashing our windows. And we were trying to get away. And we pulled off this highway and they started chasing us, pulled us out of our cars and were smashing our windows, like everything, just hitting us and making like threatening to kill us. I don't know why.

911 DISPATCHER: All right. Hold on. We have cars coming to the location (ph).

NG: And my husband's bleeding all over the street.

911 DISPATCHER: Where did these motorists go? Where did they go?

NG: And there's more motorcycles coming right now.

911 DISPATCHER: All right. Did they have any weapons? A knife, a gun, a bat or anything else?

NG: Yes. They have weapons, knives. They had - they were smashing us with everything they had.

911 DISPATCHER: All right.

NG: They were taking a knife to us.

911 DISPATCHER: They cut you with a knife or not?

NG: They cut my husband's face open with a knife.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The wife who you just heard on that recording was weeping in court yesterday as she told the jury that she retreated to the back seat that was filled with broken glass because she wanted to check on her two-year-old daughter. Absolutely harrowing. Unbelievable.

Crews are racing to contain a spill right now. It is a devastating oil spill in Santa Barbara, California, just in time for the Memorial Day weekend. And these are the live pictures. They are seeing at 9:28 a.m. Pacific Time on what is normally a beautiful beach. Not today and not for several days, weeks, months, or years. We're going to dig real deep into this in a moment.

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