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Amanpour

Migrant Crisis in the Mediterranean; Getting to the Root of the Problem; Malaysia and Indonesia Agree to Help Migrants; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 21, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: live from the very windy island of Lampedusa in the Mediterranean off Italy, just 70

miles from the North African coast, an exclusive report on the desperate plight of migrants, who are risking everything to cross the

Mediterranean to safety. We go on board an Italian naval vessel and witness an extraordinary rescue.

And over 4,000 miles away, Southeast Asia faces a similar crisis; thousands of Muslim Rohingya and Bangladeshi refugees stranded at sea

but finally maybe getting a temporary port to call home. The Indonesian foreign minister joins me later.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to a special edition of our program from Lampedusa, Italy. I'm Christiane Amanpour. And we are

reporting here on this crisis of migration that has focused the world's attention. And indeed, Italy has shouldered the lion's share of this.

Over the last two months alone 29,000 refugees have been rescued and brought to shore.

And today, in fact this week, the Italian prime minister Matteo Renzi said he was going to raise the ship that sank in April with some 800

bodies on board to prove to the world what was going on here. He said people cannot just look away.

And it was that sinking that focused the world that caused the E.U. now to seek a U.N. resolution for a beefed-up military campaign also to try

to get European countries to abide by a quota system to take migrants in on a fair basis. But those countries are wrangling over that very

notion.

In the meantime, the thousands keep coming; we were out for 24 hours on an Italian naval vessel, a total of 900 refugees were rescued and

brought ashore. We witnessed the rescue of 300 of them.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): It's a sunny day. So the pilots of this navy helicopter expect it to be a busy day in the Central Mediterranean not

far from the Libyan coast. And barely 30 minutes into our flight the pilots tell us they've spotted a boat, possibly full of migrants.

And there it is, miles away, steaming towards Italy, they hope. The warship Spinks takes off to rescue them. Now they've all been given

those distinctive orange life vests. We return to the task force frigate Virginio Fasan and join the crews there preparing to assist the

seaborne rescue underway.

The crews are dressed in masks and hazard suits in case of infectious disease. It is incredible to see with your own eyes a boat like that,

not big; it's been crammed with 290 people and of them 21 are children.

Now the Italian navy has offloaded them all and now the last batch that's been unloaded by the Italian navy is ready to get on one of these

warships and safety.

But this human drama also includes one death and three very sick migrants are transported to be choppered to hospital on land.

The very lucky ones make it up the stairs. They're all sat in rows on the top deck under the broiling sun. Most are from Eritrea, East

Africa, escaping a dictatorial regime and military service that doesn't pay a penny. Almost no one speaks English. But this man tells me they

all fled what amounts to slavery back home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know a lot of times cannot all people they are tied in the Mediterranean Sea. We know that.

AMANPOUR: And yet you take the risk, even though you know a lot of people died?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't have pretty word because I tell you, but by myself, I came from Eritrea.

AMANPOUR: What do you think of the Italians who saved you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is very good we are in a nice country. We know that before we knew we are coming, we know that.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): And then we walk over to the other side, where women and children were separated, seeking shade and sleep where they

could. Twenty-five-year-old Juri fetches water for her travel companions and their kids. She says they all spent a long time waiting

for this in cruel conditions in Libya.

AMANPOUR: Are you afraid on the sea?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I really am. We are afraid but we (INAUDIBLE).

AMANPOUR: So God came in the form of the Italian navy?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, yes. Like yes. I'm happy.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Back on the busy bridge of the Fasan, Commander Marco Bagni directs this and other operations and every rescue takes

hours to accomplish, even on calm waters. There are up to 1,000 crew at sea all the time.

Task Force Commander Admiral Ribuffo has one special mission, aside from saving lives, stopping these merchants of death by keeping empty fishing

boats out of the traffickers' hands.

AMANPOUR: You have called these boats weapons of mass destruction.

What do you mean -- ?

ADMIRAL PIERPAOLO RIBUFFO, DEPUTY COMMANDER OF ITALIAN NAVY: They are because of course it's quite provocative, but in terms of human losses,

they have been causing, just one journey is extremely fruitful for a criminal organization. We're talking about 1 million euro per journey.

AMANPOUR: Really?

RIBUFFO: Yes.

AMANPOUR: One million euros per journey?

RIBUFFO: Yes.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Indeed, heavily armed security forces and Marines take off at top speed, soaking us but making sure no trafficker

was coming back for this wooden boat. And while they all await further orders under a new E.U. military mission, the human toll on young crews

and even experienced naval commanders is immense.

RIBUFFO: I think that Italy and Europe in the next future will do the right thing. So I'm proud of that.

AMANPOUR: I can see it makes you emotional.

RIBUFFO: I would say yes, because confronting yourself with people is quite heartbreaking sometimes.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): And rewarding at times, too, after all, on just this mission they have saved 289 lives. These migrants are safe and

they are free at last. But still they sail on into an uncertain future -- Christiane Amanpour, CNN, aboard the Virginio Fasan in the

Mediterranean Sea.

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AMANPOUR: And it just so happens that this afternoon those very migrants were offloaded in Sicily and they were at a reception center

and they were watched and witnessed by representatives of the UNHCR, the U.N.'s refugee agency, and joining me now is Laurens Jolles, who is the

head of the refugee agency for this area of Southern Europe.

It just goes to show, doesn't it, I mean, today there were no crossings because of this dreadful weather; yesterday it was fantastic; 900 people

came over.

But that's just the first part of the battle for them. What happens when they get here?

LAURENS JOLLES, UNHCR SOUTHERN EUROPE: Well, it's the first part of the battle. That's absolutely true. But when they arrive here, you see the

people on board, most of them are refugees. Most of them are people who flee from persecution or wars or absolutely terrible situations. They

come here; they have the right to apply for asylum. Those that do arrive usually do, either in Italy or in other countries. And that's

the beginning of a new life, in fact.

But it's fraught with obstacles, of course. It's not easy. People are coming with traumas and having lost everything. And they have to build

up a new life.

AMANPOUR: But not only that, there is the resistance. Look at what's happening in Europe, the politics, the right-wing anti-immigration

parties and now Europeans, even not wanting to go along with this idea of taking in quotas.

What do you think will happen if a beefed-up E.U. mission goes into effect and they try to stop the smugglers by destroying the boats?

What will that mean?

JOLLES: Well, that's just one part of a much larger plan. Now the European Commission has come up with an agenda for migration that in

fact if one reads it is quite good. Very positive about that because it gives a lot of elements that should all complement each other. What you

were talking about, the destruction of boats and stopping the smuggling is just one element. That should not be the element that people

concentrate on because there are other things, of course. One has to build legal avenues to come to Europe that are different from having to

cross --

AMANPOUR: OK. So some have talked about having processing camps, let's say, in Tunisia or other parts of North Africa, where it's possible.

Is that viable, according to the UNHCR?

JOLLES: That could be possible. It's not only that. We're looking now at indeed resettlement from some countries, relocations so people who

are already coming, who are already here, who can go to other countries, we're talking about family reunification, facilitated family

reunification, sponsorship schemes, labor migration schemes, development in some of the countries where people are having to flee from or in the

countries of transit.

So it's a combination of things that all go together. One cannot look just at one or the other.

AMANPOUR: And what about the times that we live in? We report on refugees and wars, endlessly. And I think according to the U.N., this

is the most refugees around the world since World War II.

JOLLES: Yes, absolutely. We're talking about more than 50 million people who have been displaced, who are either internally displaced or

refugees, a huge, huge number. And I think the international community as the high commissioner has often said is not capable of stopping the

crises that are in the world.

So I think it's more important now than it ever was before to keep borders open, to look at tolerance, no restrictive policies and be able

to recognize the need to be liberal and have the possibility of people coming. And that's unfortunately not the case.

AMANPOUR: Well, it's not. I mean, it's almost the opposite. So what do you tell a country like Italy which is doing what it's doing on the

high seas, as I said, taking the lion's share of it, then bringing all these migrants basically here?

JOLLES: Well, Italy, first of all, is doing a wonderful job as we have seen. It's not only Italy; others are helping at the moment. But with

Mare Nostrum --

AMANPOUR: And there's a U.K. ship, there's a French ship, there's some German ships, yes.

JOLLES: -- private ships also. But Italy has definitely taken the lion's share. And you saw in the film that you -- the report that you

made how proud the commander was. And they are. They have something to be proud of. And he was also quite emotional about that.

So they're giving a very, very good example. It is not happening elsewhere in the world at the moment. But this is a very good example

of how rescue is important, how it's absolutely essential that human lives come first.

Then of course you have the other thing. Once people come to Europe, then what do you do? And then there have to be other mechanisms,

solidarity mechanisms, burden sharing, a common responsibility. And they're going towards that. Now it is true that there is resistance. I

hope that the resistance will be overcome. We're going to be looking at what's going to happen in the next few weeks.

AMANPOUR: All right. Stand by, because some of the other places where it's happening are in fact as I said 4,000 miles away, where we have all

these Rohingyas and Bangladeshis stranded at sea.

When we come back, my interview with the Indonesian foreign minister, just back from a meeting of other foreign ministers in that region.

They have decided to give a temporary space in their countries to these migrants; first, of course, we leave you with images of past parallels

of today's desperation, when it was the migrants of Haiti and Cuba turning to the ocean for a better life.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the Italian island of Lampedusa in the Mediterranean, where this bad weather has meant that more migrants have

not crossed today. But we're actually going to turn our attention to 4,000 miles away and Asia, where for the last many, many days and weeks

a migrant crisis is also unfolding; over 25,000 migrants have left Myanmar and Bangladesh on rickety smugglers' boats in the first three

months of this year alone and scenes of utter desperation in the Andaman seas are adding pressure to the governments of Indonesia and Malaysia,

not to mention Thailand and Myanmar.

But Indonesia and Malaysia have agreed now to provide temporary assistance to some of these migrants, to give them at least a year's

resettlement permission in their countries. And earlier I spoke to the Indonesian foreign minister, just on her way from talks in Myanmar,

after visit other foreign ministers; beware, the line is slightly bad. I was talking to her on a cell phone in the Bangkok airport.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Foreign Minister Marsudi, welcome to the program. And thank you for joining me from the Bangkok airport.

RETNO MARSUDI, INDONESIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Thank you very much for having me.

AMANPOUR: Tell me what you have managed to achieve in your talks in Myanmar, in Burma with your Malaysian and other counterparts.

What is the solution to these migrants that you've come up with?

MARSUDI: Well my visit from Myanmar is part of my bilateral offices. So we discussed about efforts in (INAUDIBLE) bilateral relation between

Indonesia and Myanmar. And of course we touch upon also the current issue of irregular movement of people in Southeast Asia.

And the way I see Myanmar, it's a very encouraging approach to be part of the solution.

AMANPOUR: How will it be part of the solution because, quite extraordinarily, the government of Myanmar doesn't even want to

pronounce the name "Rohingya," has said that if Rohingya is on any official invitation for a conference, they won't even attend?

So how are they going to be part of the solution?

MARSUDI: First is the Myanmar government will take steps to prevent the irregular migration.

Second, the Myanmar government is ready to join cooperation to combat human trafficking with countries in Southeast Asia in the region.

And third, the Myanmar prime minister will task the embassy in Jakarta to have the consular accreditation (ph) to Aceh.

So I think this is a very important point.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you this, because obviously the Rohingya exodus is because of the way they're treated. They have no rights in Myanmar and

they are persecuted.

Did the Myanmar government give assurances that it would do the kind of things to keep these people at home and prevent them from fleeing to

your country?

MARSUDI: Yes, I think the government of Myanmar government would have the consular occupation (ph) if one sect that need appreciation as well

because after the consulate occupation (ph), then we would see what will be the result whether the temporary shelter in Aceh, Indonesia.

AMANPOUR: OK. Let me ask you this, Foreign Minister. You know, it's been said that the nations of Southeast Asia essentially have been

playing ping-pong with these human lives, bouncing them from one place to another, the tide towing them back out to sea, people refusing to

have them in.

How embarrassing was that for you all?

MARSUDI: I think that the term it's not appropriate because Indonesia is not a contracting party of the Refugee Convention of 1951. But last

week, we already took more than 1,300 irregular migration in our territory , in the northern part of Sumatra.

Just couple days ago, another 400 were coming in in North Sumatra. So the term ping-pong I don't think is the correct one. This is not the

problem or an issue of Indonesia, of one country. It is an issue of regional, even international issue. So despite this humanitarian

consideration, Malaysia and Indonesia said OK, we are ready to offer temporary shelter provided that the repatriation can be done in one

year.

AMANPOUR: So you have agreed to take them in for this one year.

What happens if they're not resettled?

Who are you looking for help from?

And what do you make of one of your big neighbors, Australia, who today has said no, no, no; we aren't taking any of these in by the back door?

MARSUDI: Again, that is actually the issue. And it's not fair that it is Indonesian problem, Indonesians have to resolve this. It is not

Indonesian problem. But again, we offer a solution and it's already mentioned that we need cooperation from international community. The

cooperation should be coming from the country of origin, the country of transit as well as the country of destination.

AMANPOUR: Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

MARSUDI: Thank you, Christiane.

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AMANPOUR: Now here in Lampedusa I'm joined again by Laurens Jolles.

So we've just heard from the Indonesian foreign minister. We've seen what's happening on the Mediterranean. This is not a situation that's

going to go away.

JOLLES: No, absolutely, you're absolutely right. It's something that will continue. We should not, I think, nobody should think that from

one day to the other it's going to stop.

So for that reason I think it's becoming even more important that there is a global strategy, a strategy of migration that has many elements

from development to protection, to rescue, to anti-smuggling, everything and what has started now is very, very good.

But that needs to be implemented and thought through and we have to find ways of ensuring that people can come in a legal way and to look at the

good things that they can bring also --

AMANPOUR: And just to be clear, many critics say, hey, the more you help these people, the more they're coming over. But the Italians

showed us their grasp that actually the reason they're launching these missions is because the migrant arrivals were launching very, very high.

JOLLES: Yes. Some people have said that for example Mare Nostrum was a pull factor. That was absolutely not corroborated by the facts because

the moment it stopped, we saw that even more people came through.

So the flows of people coming will continue. They are increasing at the moment. The only way to stop them is to ensure that the crises, that

are there in the world, are solved and that is extremely difficult. And until the time that there are all these hot spots in the world, it will

not be possible to stop the migration.

So we have to manage it and that is important.

AMANPOUR: And politicians and governments have to be brave because there's this anti-immigrant sentiment and political parties in so many

of their countries.

JOLLES: It becomes even more important in a context as difficult as now and as complicated now to go back to basic principles. And those basic

principles are respect for human rights, keep your borders open, protect refugees who flee from persecution. Those are very, very important. We

should not forget that. It's part of our civilized nation.

AMANPOUR: Laurens Jolles, UNHCR here in Southern Europe, thank you so much.

JOLLES: Thank you, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: And just to follow up on what Laurens was saying, we shouldn't forget the history. It was in 1939 that the ship St. Louis

sailed towards the United States with 900 faces and people on board, pressed to the windows, trying to get refugee. And they were turned

away by the United States, by Cuba and by Canada. They were mostly German Jews, fleeing the Nazis. And historians say that hundreds of

those were then killed in concentration camps.

And when we come back, we imagine these historic parallels and how they relate today. And we actually look at a helping hand that was extended

to the Vietnamese boat people 40 years ago. That's when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight imagine a world set adrift as it has been since the dawn of human history, famine, war, the eternal quest for a

better life has eternally propelled migrants around the globe. We're witnessing it now here in the Mediterranean, the sea that's most usually

associated with glorious summer holidays. And of course over in Asian waters. So perhaps it's worth recalling now a similar tide 40 years

ago.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): In 1975 after America's calamitous Vietnam War, the boat people piled into rickety wooden vessels to flee the Communist

regime. Nearly 1 million tried to cross the South China Sea; at one point, 10,000 people were fleeing Vietnam every week. Many died of

starvation or they were killed by pirates and treacherous seas and the many who reached countries like Thailand were towed back out to those

same seas.

These tragic pictures were taken by the renowned photographer Eddie Adams, who jumped on board one of the stranded boats crammed with dozens

of people. The story told through his lens captured the world's attention and eventually his photos were presented to Congress and they

forced President Carter to extend the hand of friendship.

Hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese immigrants settled in the United States, becoming successful entrepreneurs and moving up into the middle

class. Adams was already famous for this shocking picture that he took during the Vietnam War and he won a Pulitzer Prize. But he always said

documenting the Vietnamese boat people was the only work he really cared about.

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AMANPOUR: And highlighting the plight of today's boat people will hopefully bring some solution to their crisis.

And that is it for our program, our special edition from Lampedusa. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and

follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank you for watching and good night from Italy.

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