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Cleveland Police Officer Acquitted in Deaths of Unarmed Man and Woman. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired May 23, 2015 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:01] FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Still the police officer who fired the weapon has yet to be interviewed.
WALTER MADISON, CLEVELAND ATTORNEY: No transparency with the interview whatsoever. OK?
WHITFIELD: Also in Cleveland.
MADISON: Also in Cleveland. And so -- you begin -- you start talking about clanging the perception. Well, you have to love the people if you're ever going to serve the people. And it just appears to be a lack of concern or empathy for what they're going through right now.
You have a video of a young boy being shot down by an officer, by the way, who should have never been hired because he was fired from another department for his inability to perform his duties. So -- you know, it just seems to be disingenuous and he's talking about more laws. We can't seem to enforce the ones we have.
WHITFIELD: That was the prosecutor who said that.
MADISON: Correct.
WHITFIELD: He said more laws. So, I mean, you know, Cedric, you're in an unfortunate, and fortunate position, actually, hold your thought right there because the mayor is now about to carry out this news conference there out of Cleveland, Frank Jackson.
MAYOR FRANK JACKSON (D), CLEVELAND: I do believe we have some clergy in the house. I appreciate them attending and everyone else also.
Today's verdict in the trial of Officer Michael Brelo is a verdict that will have long lasting effect not only here in our local community, but really in communities throughout this country. It is the first of several complex policing and community issues that will test Clevelanders as we move in the days, the weeks and months ahead.
This is a moment that will define us as a city and define us as a people as we move forward and address not only issues surrounding this verdict but those things that will come in, in the near future.
It is my expectation that we will show the nation that peaceful demonstration and dialogue is the right direction as we move forward as one Cleveland. We all understand and respect the fact that people have the right to protest and let their voice be heard. However, while we encourage and support peaceful protests, I want to make sure that those who are here that have a different agenda understand that actions that cross the line, whether by police officers or citizens, cannot and will not be tolerated.
Moving forward we will continue to address the events of November 29th, 2012, which is the East Cleveland shooting, and which Officer Brelo is on trial today. Now that the criminal court case has been concluded, the disciplinary process will resume for the remaining 14 officers that were involved either in the chase or the shooting.
To date we have disciplined officers in a range from termination, demotion and suspension without pay. In addition there will be rulings on the Tamir Rice case and the Tanisha Anderson case in the future. At the same time, the city is in continuing negotiation with the Department of Justice to reach a consent decree to ensure that there is greater accountability and transparency in the division of police.
While we have accomplished a great deal as a community, we know that there is much, much, much more that we have to do. Again I want to emphasize that this is a defining moment for Cleveland. As we look at this verdict and we respond to that verdict, and we as a city move ahead in a way that will ensure that whatever injustices may be will no longer happen again.
So I want to turn this over to Chief Calvin Williams who will go through the process of what we will do post this verdict in terms of police action around disciplinary actions. Chief.
CHIEF CALVIN WILLIAMS, CLEVELAND POLICE: Today's announcement on the verdict of Patrol Officer Michael Brelo marks a defining time for this city and for this police department. It is important to note that we still have a lot of hard work to do regarding the events that took place on November 29th, 2012.
I will explain the steps that we are going to take to move forward here. But first I want to recap what's already been -- the actions that have already been taken by both the city and the Division of Police.
[13:05:02] In 2013 the Division of Police convened a Critical Incident Review Committee to look over the incident on November 29th, 2012. This Critical Incident Review Committee is comprised of members of the Homicide Unit, the Use of Deadly Force Investigation team, the Integrity Control Section, the Field Operations Section, as well as three civilians. One from the Office of Professional Standards, one from the Community Relations Board, and one community liaison, along with a member of the city's Law Department.
The committee was tasked with reviewing the completed BCII investigation that was conducted in this incident. And also to conduct their own independent investigation. All records and electronic data were reviewed. Police supervisors and officers involved in the pursuit were questioned. The route of the pursuit was driven several times by the committee members to ensure and determine the accuracy of the officers' statements. Upon completion of the committee's investigation, the results and
recommendations were forwarded to the chief of police. In the interest of transparency and openness to our community, the division of police conducted a press conference at which time a power point presentation was given that put all the evidence that the committee reviewed and the conclusions out there for everybody.
This review in 2013 focused solely on the officers that were involved in the pursuit and not the officers involved in the use of deadly force. That investigation resulted in the following. 72 officers were suspended without pay with dates ranging from one day to 30 days. One supervisor was terminated and two supervisors were demoted. Three officers had administrative charges dismissed due to no finding by the committee of administrative violations or procedures.
The administrative process now surrounding Officer Brelo and the 12 other officers involved in the use of deadly force will continue with the Critical Incident Review Committee. Regarding Officer Brelo, Officer Brelo will remain on unpaid suspension from the Division of Police. Upon completion of the Critical Incident Committee's review, their findings will be forwarded to my office where I will review those findings and submit them to our case preparation officer to prepare administrative charges for violations observed by that committee.
The case preparation officer will notify the officers involved in writing of those charges, and hearing dates will be set either with myself or the director of public safety for those officers. I stated earlier, this is another step in a long process to move us forward through this incident on November 29th, 2012.
The people of this city can be assured that we, the administration and Division of Police, will make sure that any and all violations of our policies and procedures are dealt with to the fullest extent possible. The citizens of this city have set a standard over the last six months in how they interact and force change and the reform of not only Cleveland division of police but of the criminal justice system.
And I have been proud to be a Clevelander during that time. Because our people have come out and demonstrated and voiced their concerns and their First Amendment rights in a peaceful, proactive fashion. And we've listened to that. And I want to make sure that people understand that the way we get this thing done is together as a city in the fashion that we've done over the last six months.
This is not over. There are still things that the division of police and the city are in the process of doing to make sure that our community knows that we are here to protect and to serve them. I want to make sure that people understand that we are out there for our community. And that our officers are part of this community. And day in and day out we go out there to protect and serve. And our community has that right to go out there and voice their concerns and we've done that.
[13:10:15] And we expect people to continue to do that. At this time, calmer heads have to prevail. Cleveland has set a standard and I want to ensure that we continue to set that standard as we move forward. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any questions? Yes, sir.
JACKSON: Well, I think I've been on record, I've even said to you personally and on the record that it was my belief that at the end of the day, that, as you know, when we discipline officers, our arbitrators overturn those disciplines, and that I felt that the charge that was presented to the judge was one that was difficult to prove. And so my expectation I think with a lot of people is that it would be a very difficult uphill battle to get a conviction. And that has borne out.
Now my personal reaction to it is that it is difficult to accept just a legal definition or legal analysis of something and say that that should be the end of it because I don't believe people will accept that. People have a right to disagree with me as mayor, the chief as the chief, the judge as the judge, and the criminal justice system as the criminal justice system. And that we fully expect that they will express their dissatisfaction.
And we are asking them to do it in a way that they've done it in the past and our expectation is that they will do that. And with all of this said and done, having their feet on the pedal in terms of constantly reminding the administration, the police department and the court in this country as a whole that there is expectation that they believe that we in terms of government and in terms of the criminal justice system have not met and that this decision is one of those shortcomings in terms of expectation.
And that is what they're saying to me, the chief, and they're saying to the criminal justice system. And they're saying not just in Cleveland, they're saying it all over the country.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
JACKSON: Well, I'm not going to -- I'm the mayor so I will maintain mayoral posture in regards to whether or not I'm disappointed or not. I think I've pretty well explained my sentiments. And you can interpret that.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
WILLIAMS: First off, we monitor activity on a daily basis. Yes, there are people from outside of our area that are in town. Just for the purpose of engaging and what we hope will be peaceful First Amendment activities. But we really aren't too focused on the people that come in from out of town. We're focused on the people in this city that have to live here day in and day out and that know what needs to happen in this city and the people that live here are activists, are community partners.
They know what needs to happen. And those are the people that we're listening to, those are the people that we're talking to and engaging with. If there's somebody from out of town that doesn't have that as their focus for the city of Cleveland, you know, we're not going to single them out, but we're going to engage and talk to and make sure that people in the city that live here, that have a stake here have a voice in what goes on from here on out.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
WILLIAMS: Well, we're not going to get into tactics and deployment and things like that. I mean, that's a hypothetical situation at this point. But we're out there to maintain peace in this community. We're out there to protect everybody in this community, both physically and property wise, and we will do that.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
WILLIAMS: Again, I'm not going to comment on what the verdict says. I mean people can make their own opinions on that. All I can say is that from the division's standpoint, we still have work to do and the people in this city will know where the division stands, where I stand, once we complete that work with the rest of the officers.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
[13:15:22] WILLIAMS: Well, I'm not going to go back to that. I mean, the people that were at the press conference that we had the night after, they know my feelings. They know the things that I said that night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was it then?
WILLIAMS: Well, if a nutshell, my statements that night were along the lines of, you know, we're a better police department than to allow not just the end of this incident but to allow the incident to get that far in the first place, and that's what I've worked for since November 12th -- November 29th of 2012 to correct in this division. And as people will know, we haven't had a pursuit that's lasted that long.
We haven't had a pursuit that's resulted in anything close to that since because of the things that we put in place since that day.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
WILLIAMS: Well, I think there are a lot of things different. Again, we don't conduct pursuits in that manner anymore and we haven't since that day. And it's evident by -- I mean you guys can look at the stats that, you know, it's just not the policy of our police department anymore to allow anything like that to even take hold. Let alone to go on for that duration. That, along with our community engagement. You see a lot of our community partners here today.
But what I'm here to tell people is that I'm here for the long haul. I know the mayor's here for the long haul. And we want what's best for this community, this entire community. Not just what's best for the police department because what's best for the Cleveland Division of Police is to police our city in a way that everybody is confident in us. And that's my goal from the beginning.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE).
WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE).
JACKSON: Well, I've had conversation with the governor, yes. That type of topic did come up but it just came up and went away. It wasn't like we spent time on it. I mean it is a logical kind of question that he asked me.
The real thing is with the chief of police, the highway patrol, the different police departments in the area, the county sheriff. So he has had extensive dialogue with them and they have had protocol established between them and also some training kind of things going on between the division and the police, suburban police, the sheriff's office, the state highway patrol.
Fortunately we've always had a good working relationship with them and have done things in the past in a joint partnership with them so it's not difficult to adjust to if there is a need for adjustment in an incident like this.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE).
JACKSON: You think they would tell you that? No. No. No. We -- the police are the police. And, you know, and of course they gather intelligence. There are things that they don't tell me. So I imagine they wouldn't today be telling you something like that. But they stay on top of it is what I'm saying. They do stay on top of what they do and they do it in a professional way. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE).
WILLIAMS: Scott, it depends on the situation. Right now I'm allowing my command staff and supervisors to do their jobs, what they've been trained to do, along with our other law enforcement partners. So now, no. Right now I'm not on the streets. But if it came to it, if I thought it'd help -- would help a situation, I definitely would be out there. I mean, you know, I'm a frontline supervisor-police officer for almost 30 years. That's where I've been. And, again, if the situation dictates it, of course I will.
JACKSON: Scott, I don't want you to think that the chief is not -- he's the chief so he's in the command mode now. And so he's operating out of the Emergency Operations Center where all information comes in. All the intelligence that may be gathered, all of the real-time things sort of happening on the street.
[13:20:09] So he is in that command position now. And if something happened where it need be, both he and I would respond to it at that time. But right now there are people who are responsible for those things but he is in charge operating out of the emergency operations center.
Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.
WHITFIELD: All right. You're listening to the mayor there, Frank Jackson. And he said, yes, in fact there was some acknowledgement. He even referred to his statements early on in the investigation well before a not guilty verdict rendered by the judge today that he said that he knew that it would be difficult -- these charges would be difficult to prove. Two counts of voluntary manslaughter for Cleveland Police Officer Michael Brelo. And you heard from the judge today who said that he acted accordingly.
So we're going to talk more about this now with my panel that has joined us. HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson, attorney for Tamir Rice's family Walter Madison, and CNN law enforcement analyst Cedric Alexander, all with me now.
We heard a few things, pretty remarkable things coming from the mayor, as well as the police chief, Calvin Williams. From the mayor, just to reiterate his words earlier, he said, you know, it's difficult to accept the legal analysis and say that should -- that should be the end of it. He says there is more work to be done which in large part underscores why there will now be some administrative charges that the Cleveland police chief spelled out.
So, Cedric, what does that tell you about the road ahead for these police officers? The police chief even riddled the fact that, you know, 72 officers have been suspended without pay. And that's from one day to 30 days. There were terminations, there were demotions but there is more.
CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Let me clear about something. You know, two people died in this incident. You have over 100 shots fired. That is certainly inexplicable and hard to explain to anyone in an event that happened as such. And in this particular case, one individual could not be charged merely because what the court is saying, they couldn't just put it on him.
There were clearly a series of shots, a number of individuals involved. And what happened on that day quite frankly is horrific. And let me be very, very clear about that. I think the other piece here is if you look in light of what is going on in the country today, it is very hard for people to get their arms around, citizens that is, get their arms around. How do we begin to trust the police.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: So we're talking about a sequence of events.
ALEXANDER: The sequence of event that comes --
WHITFIELD: You heard the judge earlier that said, you know, people are thinking about what happened in North Charleston, Ferguson.
ALEXANDER: Right. That's right. That's right.
WHITFIELD: But at the same time the judge was trying to say, you know, those incidents should not influence the outcome.
ALEXANDER: Right.
WHITFIELD: And the investigation here. ALEXANDER: And as I said at the top of this show that is still very
difficult to do in the minds of people from their perspective and their experience.
WHITFIELD: Of course.
ALEXANDER: And this is just not relegated to people feeling this way about it to the African-American community. That's across this country. People are raising those questions but here again, going back to the 21st century task force report, Fredricka, you --
WHITFIELD: And this was imposed, led by first the president of the United States.
ALEXANDER: This was led -- that's right. That's right. Back in December, President Obama asked that this task force be formed. We come up with a number of recommendations which we did. If you pulled that document down, offline, what you will find is a series of recommendations in there, divided into six various pillars that will really give us a roadmap. Give Cleveland and the rest of this country a road map as to how do we get started in terms of starting to create and develop some --
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: What were some of those things?
ALEXANDER: Well, one, for an example, is building trust and legitimacy. First and foremost, pillar number one. How do we begin --
WHITFIELD: How do you do that?
ALEXANDER: How do we begin to do that? Well, you have to make yourself transparent to that community. Clearly historically in Cleveland there has been a lack of transparency and trust that has been developed historically in that department between the community.
WHITFIELD: And the Justice Department just made that public in their discovery over a two-year investigation.
ALEXANDER: That's right. That's right. Absolutely. And the Justice Department is going to go back in here real soon. Miss Gupta who heads justice, heads that division, her and her team who are very, very talented, and have done incredible work. We saw the work that they've done coming out of Ferguson and other places across the country. They have been fair, they have been what this country needs if that should arise to them to be able to look into this and provide further insight as to what needs to happen.
WHITFIELD: OK. So, Walter, we did hear from the police chief. We heard from the mayor. We even heard from the prosecutor. Everyone is in agreement, work needs to be done. But why --
MADISON: That's just talk.
WHITFIELD: Why does it seem that is just lip service?
MADISON: It's just talk. Because you can't see it. It's not real. You have, as we speak today, Tamir Rice six months ago died. OK. And he talks of transparency. They won't tell us where they are in the investigation. The officers who killed him have not been interviewed. And so --
[13:25:04] WHITFIELD: And just to remind people, Tamir Rice, 12 years old. Right?
MADISON: Twelve years old.
WHITFIELD: Holding a toy gun. A 911 call comes in. And even the person who called said I think it is a toy gun but when the police officers arrived, they treated him as such that it was a real gun and shot him dead.
MADISON: And then they began the victim blame right away. Well, he looks grown. He's menacing. Look how big he is. You know, how big was LeBron James at 12 years old? So the human talent that we lost because of their indifference.
WHITFIELD: Goes back to the perception. Right?
ALEXANDER: It goes back -- yes, absolutely, it does. And he's right on point.
WHITFIELD: How you interpret somebody. What you look at.
ALEXANDER: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: And how you divide a threat.
MADISON: African-Americans are always viewed threatening more so than their counterparts.
ALEXANDER: But, Fredricka, here's the real point. Tamir Rice's case. We take that. Six months later nothing has been revealed to the public as to where they are in the investigation.
WHITFIELD: And so when Cleveland Police say things have been done to help ensure better relations between the community but they look at that case and they say, I don't see anything that's changed. Why should --
ALEXANDER: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
WHITFIELD: Why should people in the community trust police officers?
ALEXANDER: And this goes -- and this goes to my point. That -- you know, I find it absolutely unbelievable that six months into this case, in all fairness to that community, to the police department, that's involved and to the Tamir Rice family, that six months later nothing is being told to the community whatsoever. That cannot occur. WHITFIELD: That's a big problem.
ALEXANDER: That is a huge problem.
WHITFIELD: OK.
ALEXANDER: And here again it reflects no kind of way any transparency or any kind of way does it reflect trying to build relationships in the community.
MADISON: Listen. Now this --
ALEXANDER: It goes (INAUDIBLE).
WHITFIELD: Well, hold it right there. I want to go back to Cleveland right now. Our Ryan Young is there. And we have shown pictures, you know, since 11:00 this morning how people have been protesting peacefully, walking in the streets especially after hearing the judge render his decision.
So, and you've even had a chance to talk to some family members, Ryan. You even tried to talk with the defense attorney. And then he had to go inside. So what's the latest? What's happening? What are people saying and thinking about what the mayor had to say and what the police chief had to say?
RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think a lot of people are just sort of -- right now the actual protest moved on. And they are frustrated. In fact we'd seen them walking this direction. They decided to take over the street. But it's a small group. Maybe 50 to 100 people. In fact we've been here with Pastor Jimmy Gates, who we've been talking about all the efforts in the community to make sure this remain peaceful after that decision.
Talk about some of that work that you guys have done out there in the community.
PASTOR JIMMY GATES, ZION HILL MISSIONARY BAPTIST CHURCH: Well, what we basically have been doing in the city of Cleveland. We've had training sessions and passing out flyers, promoting peace and justice here in our city. There's no problem with demonstrations, peaceful demonstrations. We encourage demonstrations so that people have an outlet or venue to vent their frustrations. But we just wanted to make sure that you'd be mindful of the destruction of property, life and issues such as that.
We want you to demonstrate because people need to have an opportunity to vent their frustrations based on what's going on.
YOUNG: We've had to talk about the stakeholders in this community being involved in the protests. What were you worried about in terms of what people may do in terms of all the games and everything that's been associated for this weekend?
GATES: Well, you know, this weekend we have the Cavaliers returning back in town. Tomorrow there's a playoff game, tomorrow night at 8:30. Game three of the Eastern Conference Finals. There's also a baseball game here with the Cleveland Indians tonight. And there is a number of high school proms that are going on in our city. Students are graduating from high school.
And we want them to be able to enjoy their moment. They've worked hard for 12 years to achieve this going through the high school prom. And we want a safe and our children to be safe in our city.
YOUNG: But you understand there's a frustration that's been built up. In fact you've been working on this for two years. A lot of people have been talking about that. They've had to wait for two years for this moment. Let's talk about the idea of what people want to hear moving forward. Even from the police department.
GATES: It looks like collectively I think everybody wants change. And that's from the collective bargaining agreement for the city of Cleveland and the police department. Social change. Social justice reform. Laws to be changed.
The city of Cleveland really wants to make some changes overall based on what has happened here in our city. We know that things cannot continue as they are currently going on because we're going to continue to encounter issues such as this.
YOUNG: You want to see community policing here in Cleveland.
GATES: No doubt. Community policing works. We want our officers in the neighborhood that the neighborhood can equate to the officers. They know them. They're familiar with them. They're walking around with them, they're shaking hands with them, they're hugging kids, they're looking out for kids. And the more they become familiar with those officers, the more community policing becomes effective.
YOUNG: We can be honest here and say Cleveland is hurting from this. Do you think there is a healing process that can happen now moving forward?
GATES: No doubt Cleveland is hurting. Because at one time we did have community policing. All of a sudden it went away but it has to change. We need community policing back so that it can equal the public and the community trusting the police department and the police department trusting the community. It's a collaborative efforts on both parts.
YOUNG: You're not by yourself. You have other pastors here. What do you plan to do over the next 24 hours?
GATES: Well, we haven't actually defined what we're going to be doing within the next 24 hours. But right now there's churches across the city of Cleveland, east, west, north and south, that are open. Anyone that wants to go in and pray, whatever the case may be, they're open. Mosques are open. Community centers throughout the city are open.
[13:30:14] There is a number of things that we're doing in the city of Cleveland to accommodate those that feel they need an outlet based on the frustrations that are going on now. YOUNG: I thank you so much for joining us.
Pastor here talking about the outreach efforts here. I can tell you, so many people have been talking about what happens next. There is another rally planned for later on this afternoon. But Fred, I've sat in the office of Dr. Cedric Alexander before and talked about community policing. It's interesting now that the community is talking about it in such a wide, open array that they want officers who are involved in the community and they want to see something done.
As you heard with the mayor and that police chief talking about charges could be moving forward. They want to see some action. And that's something they all are waiting for. People are still holding their breath to make sure nothing happens here but so far it has remained peaceful with people walking the street, blocking traffic, whether they're getting a police escort so far and they're not even engaging with officers as they do that.
WHITFIELD: All right. Yes. But what's next, that's the big question. And I'm going to ask my panel when we come right back. Cedric Alexander still with me here, and Walter Madison and Joey Jackson. And we're also going to be joined by the Cleveland council member, Zack Reed, who we heard from earlier on the phone.
So we're going to hear from him and find out what's next and what exactly is community policing because it seems like a very simple explanation but still we're at this juncture where a lot of folks are kind of perplexed about what does it really mean and why is it that most cities are not exercising it.
We'll be right back right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Welcome back. More on this breaking news. Today a judge in Cleveland finds a police officer not guilty for his part in the shooting deaths of two unarmed people after a high-speed chase. But it is not over. Now not long after that ruling and two years after the shooting, the Justice Department says it will review this case.
CNN's Martin Savidge looks back at the controversy surrounding this deadly event.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[13:35:05] MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): November 2012, when a couple in a car speeds away from an undercover cop, their engine backfires. It triggers a police radio report of shots fired and the chase is on. Investigators say the pursuit involves as many as 62 police cars and speeds of 100 miles per hour, through the streets of Cleveland.
It ends in a hail of gunfire, killing two unarmed people. An investigation reveals a stunning 137 shots fired by 13 police officers. But only one, Michael Brelo, was on trial, charged with two counts of voluntary manslaughter. RICK BELL, PROSECUTOR: He is shooting repeatedly. He is shooting
excessively and he is shooting to kill.
SAVIDGE: Prosecutors say the 31-year-old former Marine did what other cops didn't, he reloaded and when the car police were chasing finally came to a halt, Brelo is said to have jumped on its hood and fired 15 shots directly through the windshield. The prosecution believes those are the shots that killed 43-year-old Timothy Russell and 30- year-old Melissa Williams.
Brelo told investigators he thought he and his partner were in danger, believing the couple in the car were shooting, saying, quote, "I've never been so afraid in my life. I thought my partner and I would be shot and that we were going to be killed." Brelo went on, "At which point, I drew my weapon and I shot through the windshield at the suspects."
Recorded police radio traffic that night gives conflicting accounts. At one point, warning police about weapons.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Use caution. Occupants are armed.
SAVIDGE: While other officers on the radio report seeing no weapon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He does not have a gun. He has black gloves on. He does not have a gun in his hands.
SAVIDGE: Neither victim in the car had a gun, but defense attorneys say Officer Brelo had no way of knowing that at the time, telling the court, "He wasn't trying to be Rambo, he was just trying to survive."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: All right. That was CNN's Martin Savidge reporting.
So let's talk more about this. I'm joined right now by Cleveland City Councilman Zack Reed.
And so, Mr. Reed, earlier you said, you know, while many people are shocked, you also said that we can't let one decision define the city of Cleveland. You heard the Cleveland police chief underscore, however, that this marks a defining time. So which is it and how does Cleveland move forward?
ZACK REED, CLEVELAND CITY COUNCILMAN: Well, Cleveland moves forward by first of all staying calm. Cleveland moves forward by being a model. I mean you got to take into account, we've got two more serious cases that are before the prosecutor. You got a 12-year-old boy that was shot and killed by a police officer and you got a mentally ill young lady that was killed at the hands of police officers.
And both of those cases have to go before the prosecutor. So if we blow up on this one case, then what signal do we send to the rest of the nation as we look forward to these next two cases? WHITFIELD: So what's interesting is you have the Justice Department
that did this investigation and said that it had to examine the practices of the Cleveland police and found that in many cases it was excessive. Yet it didn't seem to be timely enough, I suppose, to impact the outcome of this case because you heard the judge who said it appears as though there was legal justification for the act.
So do you -- how concerned are you about these other two cases? Has the climate of justice in any way changed? Will today's case in any way -- today's verdict in any way impact those two cases that you talk about, the 12-year-old and the mentally ill woman, both killed by the hands of police?
REED: Well, let's be clear. The only reason this guy got off is because he had the immunity of being a police officer. If you and I had done what this police officer did, he'd be going to jail today. So we can't look at -- what the Justice Department was saying was the way that we police in the city of Cleveland is not constitutional. They didn't say it was wrong. They didn't say it was not right. They said it was unconstitutional.
What the judge said here today, because this person was a police officer, that gave him this immunity to be able to do what he did. So at the end of the day the Justice Department is absolutely, positively right.
WHITFIELD: But is that the message then -- do you worry that that's the message on any then police-involved shooting there in Cleveland?
REED: What I want is for the Justice Department to stay here and I want the community to understand that the federal government is here and no longer will we have a police department that will have officers out there doing unconstitutional things because we will have a consent decree in place that will be monitored by the federal government that says that they get outside that box they will be dealt with on a federal level. No more on this local level.
[13:40:03] WHITFIELD: Now when you listen to the protesters who are taking to the streets there and they say no justice, no peace, when you hear from a congresswoman, Marcia Fudge, who says, you know, there was no benefit of the doubt given to ordinary citizens similar to the benefit of the doubt that's given to police officers, how does today's decision in any way impact that going forward or do you see that it may not even make a difference?
REED: I think people walk around here saying no justice, no peace, no justice, no peace, and it becomes so much of a cry that people just look the other way. But listen to the words. You can't have justice without -- you can't have peace without justice. And in so many of these cases where African-Americans, mostly African-American males, are being killed at the hands of police officers, you can't have peace without justice.
And that's the problem we're having not only here in Cleveland but across the nation. But I'm glad to know that the federal government is in here right now because no longer -- because listen what they said in their decision on how bad our police department was. They said that they not only don't do community policing, they said they don't even know how to do community policing.
So when you're not even doing the basics, of speaking to your constituents and the people that you raise your hands to protect and serve in a way that's dignified, that's constitutional, if you aren't doing that basic thing, then how do you expect to do the bigger things? And that's why I am so happy that the federal government's in here because you cannot have peace without justice and that's what the protesters continue to say. Not only here in Cleveland but around this nation.
WHITFIELD: Do you believe that, that Cleveland police officers don't know how to community police?
REED: Forget about what I believe. It's what the federal -- the Justice Department said. In their report, they said that the city of Cleveland's police officers not only they don't do community policing, they don't even know how to do community policing. So if you aren't doing the fundamental thing of respecting your citizens, of talking to your citizens, of reacting in a way that you treat them in a dignified way, if you aren't doing that basic thing, then the other things fall to the wayside.
And that's what that -- I didn't say that. That's not what I'm saying. That's what the federal government said.
WHITFIELD: Well then as a city councilman, though, how much confidence do you have when you have the city police chief and the city mayor who say that there will be a pursuit of administrative charges against the other officers involved. Do you have confidence in that and what that means?
REED: All those things are good and the police got to do what they do and the mayor's got to do what they do and the judge did what he did today. My whole goal is to fix this police department because the federal government came in and said that the way we are policing in the city of Cleveland is unconstitutional. So all those things sound good. What the judge said today before he even rendered his verdict about how black people were treated in the country and all that.
That sounds all well and good. The question is what the heck are we going to do about it? And all this, you know, we can discipline this police officer, and you know, they got in the chase and they knew they shouldn't have got in the chase. They knew what the standards were and they knew what the regulations were for getting in to the chase. So at the end of the day we can do discipline. We can do all those things and all those things sound good.
The question is, how are we going to fix a police department that the federal government says is -- was doing excessive force and they were running unconstitutional here in this city. The question is, what are we going to do to fix it.
WHITFIELD: And then I got to ask you the question on your question. How do you do that? How does Cleveland do that? REED: You got to do what they did, and I think the president was
there just a week ago. What they did in Camden, New York. They brought on more police. They used technology and they did an aggressive community policing. And in Camden, New Jersey, you saw their numbers go down. So they did the basics. They did the basics of talking to their citizens. They did the basics of treating their citizens in a dignified way.
They did the basics of doing community policing. And when the city of Cleveland goes back to just doing the basics, treating -- Fredricka, when you, and I'm sorry if I butchered your name, but at the end of the day when you kill a 12-year-old boy, I mean, we're talking about a 12-year-old boy that lost his life. And 180 days later the sheriff's department still has not given the file to the prosecutor's office to decide whether or not that officer -- those officers should be brought up on charges.
[13:45:06] So for 180 days, a 12-year-old boy who has been shot and killed by the police department, by a police officer that probably should not have even been on the police force, we still don't know whether or not those police officers will be charged in that case. So until you start to treat your citizens in a way that is respectful and constitutional, we will continue to have the problems here in the city of Cleveland.
But I'm glad that, as you and I are speaking right now, there's no rioting, there's no looting, there's no hurting or harming citizens or property. And so the city of Cleveland has to be a model for, if we don't agree with a verdict, you can't go out and loot and riot and cause harm in the city.
WHITFIELD: All right. Councilman Zack Reed on a mission. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.
We'll have much more from Cleveland --
REED: Thank you very much.
WHITFIELD: We'll have much more right after this.
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WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back to our breaking news coverage. Protesters are marching in the streets of Cleveland right now after a police officer was found not guilty in the deaths of an unarmed man and woman. The two were shot after a police chase back in 2012.
You're looking at the officer right there, Michael Brelo, as he received the verdict from the judge, not guilty on two counts of voluntary manslaughter. This after officers unloaded more than 130 shots into the vehicle of the two unarmed people that I mentioned.
[13:50:06] Officer Brelo was accused of firing the most shots at the end of the shooting, standing on top of the hood of the victims' vehicle and unloading his weapon and even reloading. So today after the verdict was read, protesters started demonstrating outside the courthouse, as you see right there, peacefully.
Well, here is the moment when some of those protesters came face-to- face with the police officers right outside the Justice Center.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Hands up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Hands up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Go peace. Go peace.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Don't shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Don't shoot.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Go peace. Go peace.
(CROSSTALK)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: Well, at that moment that was the most confrontational that it became. You saw the police officers then retreating into the Justice Center. And since then many of the protesters have simply spread across the city, walking from street to street, chanting, holding signs. So far everything has remained peaceful.
I'm joined now by HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson in New York and attorney for Tamir Rice's family Walter Madison out of Cleveland, joining me here at Atlanta, and CNN law enforcement analyst Cedric Alexander also here in Atlanta.
All right, so gentlemen, we heard a very passionate Cleveland councilman, Zack Reed, earlier who said at the root of the problem here with this case and several others, including the Tamir Rice case, which you're representing the family, the 12-year-old who was with a toy gun who was shot because police officers thought he was wielding a real gun. You heard from Mr. Reed who said at the root of the problem here is policing.
That Cleveland Police needs to be reformed in a very big way. And he ticked off several examples to justify his case, including the Justice Department two-year review which said there's a problem. So I remain confused about what does that mean, fixing a police department. You know, how do you get to the root of fixing or reforming a police department? How do you have police officers looking at themselves and, you know, discerning what needs to be fixed?
First, Mr. Zack Reed explained that there is no community policing taking place in Cleveland. So there's no relationship, no positive relationship between police and members of the community.
MADISON: From a person -- people standpoint, the driver of the vehicle where Mr. Lowman was occupied and shot Tamir, he cost the city over $100,000 because he beat up an African-American woman. Officer Lowman had been fired from a neighboring police department because he was unfit for duty. He didn't have the emotional stability. They hired him. The city hired him. So you asked a question. I think it's --
WHITFIELD: There's a problem in hiring perhaps.
MADISON: Well, leadership.
WHITFIELD: At the very beginning.
MADISON: Bottom line, leadership. I mean, no reasonable person hires a man, gives him a gun and allows him to go out and use the gun, deadly force if necessary, and he's not emotionally and mentally capable to do the job. You know, at anywhere else, a citizen commits this offense, they're arrested. There's nowhere in the constitution that says that Mr. Lowman cannot be arrested.
WHITFIELD: So, Joey, if I could bring you into this equation because, you know, an interesting sequence of events happened here. You had a verdict rendered by the judge today. Michael Brelo waived his right to a jury trial. He said he wanted a judge. We heard from the judge. He justified his decision almost an hour before he actually gave the decision of not guilty. And then we ended up hearing from the mayor of the city as well as the police chief who would then say that there administrative actions that have yet to take place. There have been some officers who will be disciplined, many more will be.
JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: That's right.
WHITFIELD: Can you help explain, you know, the sequence here?
JACKSON: Sure.
WHITFIELD: You have a judge rendering a decision, now you have the city who said we're looking to take this even further. It's not just one officer, but a dozen officers who need to, you know, own up to the actions that led to the deaths of these two unarmed people.
JACKSON: Fredricka, it's a very important part of the process. And you know, when the process began today, you know, in terms of the judge issuing the decision, the real concern obviously is, will there be justice and what does that mean. Justice means different things for different people. Obviously the family is sorely disappointed. And so you worry about the community and how violent how it's going to
be and that's why I think leadership is so important in times like these. And so for the mayor to remind everyone, and as we watch the press conference, I think the takeaway was from the mayor and the police chief was accountability. There's another component to the process.
[13:55:03] No, this person, Mr. Brelo, was not found guilty. However, let me remind you, ladies and gentlemen of the public, according to the mayor and the police chief, that 72 officers have been suspended and disciplined ranging from one day, ranging up to 30 days. There's been a supervisor that was fired, another supervisor demoted. And so in terms of the process, it's important to remind the public that something is being done here.
We don't control, as the mayor, of course, would remind the public and the police chief would do, the judicial system, the judge found and the judge made the determination based on the facts before him as he felt them to be. A different judge certainly could have reached a different conclusion. But it was important for the mayor and it was important for the police chief to remind the community that the accountability continues. And I think we've also seen, by the way, Fredricka --
WHITFIELD: But does that end up sending a message, too, from the city that they don't have confidence in the judge's decision that there is a plan in place to carry out some sort of, you know, administrative punishment just in case the verdict is not satisfactory to people?
JACKSON: Sure. I mean, it certainly could. And that's a way that you could evaluate it. Another way for you to evaluate it is to say, that listen, this is an independent component to this. No matter what the verdict would or would not be, this is what we're doing. We're evaluating this in that critical review committee that the chief spoke about to see what was the conduct that led up to this police chase in the beginning. Why did it have to occur. And then in the aftermath what happened.
And so I think through leadership you want to inform the community that we're taking steps that this is not going to be a rogue police department. And I might add to that, Fredricka, also in your interview of the councilman and saying, look, it's time now to be calm. Pointing out to the Federal Justice Department and looking at what they determined which were real big problems in Cleveland but in resolving them in a peaceful way.
And then earlier, of course, Ryan young speaking to the clergy member to remind the community that there are outlets to voice frustration and to voice anger and that's not violence.
WHITFIELD: Yes.
JACKSON: And so the process continues. But I think that the leadership being exerted in this -- at this point is exactly what we need. WHITFIELD: Yes. And big problems from that Justice Department report
saying police using guns, tasers, fists and pepper spray excessively and unreasonably or in retaliation.
We're going to talk much more about this and the next step for Cleveland, the many next steps. Cedric Alexander chomping at the bit here. I know you had some comments on what you heard from Joey. Joey, Cedric and Walter Madison will be right back with me. We're going to take a short break for now, we'll have much more in the NEWSROOM right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
