Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Mayor Calls For Calm After Emotional Verdict; Texas Bulletin: Bandidos "Out For Blood"; Cleveland Office Acquitted in 2012 Shooting, Justice Department to Review Case; TLC Cancels Duggar Show Following Molestation Allegations; Candidates Posed with Josh Duggar Before Scandal Broke' How to Close the Gap between Haves, Have-Nots. Aired 5- 6p ET

Aired May 23, 2015 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:59:55] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: One challenge to overcome was how to transport this perishable product to the other side of the world in 30 days and avoid spoilage.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: We're picking the fruit and trying to stay right as close behind the harvest as we can, getting it under refrigeration to keep the fruits fresh.

HARLOW: When Deeley Hunt planted that single seed nearly a hundred years ago, he likely never deemed it would expand acres of citrus and a family business that would support generations to come and yield juice for the breakfast tables of Japan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Five o'clock Eastern, I'm Poppy Harlow. You're in the CNN Newsroom. We're joining you live today from New York and we're focusing at the top of the hour on Cleveland. Because right now in Cleveland, Ohio, the mayor is asking the people of his city to remain calm after a very controversial legal decision raising tensions and emotions. Protesters in Cleveland are already out. A small but upset group walking block to block, some blocking heavy traffic on a Cleveland highway, and this group who gathered outside of the county prosecutor's home. At least one protest sign reading "Cage Killer Cops." Here is the reason for the high emotion in Cleveland. This morning a police officer acquitted on all charges stemming from the shooting death of two unarmed people in 2012. This is the car that Officer Michael Brelo and several other police officers fired into after a 22-mile high-speed pursuit. Brelo's defense team argued that it could not be proven that he fired the lethal bullet, and a judge agreed that this killing was justified.

CNN's Ryan Young is live in Cleveland following the verdict for us. What are you seeing there, Ryan?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Poppy, right now, there's only a small group of protesters who are left. We're told more protests are scheduled for the weekend. They'd been a wide gamut of emotions throughout this afternoon. We've seen people take to the streets, marching through, stopping traffic. But it has remained peaceful as people were raising their voices. One of the things that we've been doing is talking to people who are directly involved in this case.

And Jackie Russell is actually the sister-in-law to Tim Russell who was in that car that day. I know a lot of people have been talking about all the shots that were fired. When you saw the verdict, you were in the courtroom, how did you feel as the judge was giving his sentence?

JACKIE RUSSELL, TIM RUSSELL'S SISTER-IN-LAW: Well, I must say that we were not surprised, not at all that it was a lot of not guilties. But of course, we were expecting for him to be convicted of at least one of the counts, you know. We feel as though basically the judge gave him a pat on the back and said good job for shooting these people, you know, good job for standing on top of the hood of the car. You know, that's acceptable in the police force, that's acceptable in the community to stand on top of a car and shoot down into the victims, that multiple shots have already been fired.

YOUNG: When you hear the police chief and the mayor say these officers could still lose their job, does that give you guys any solace at all, or are you still upset of the fact that he was not found guilty on any of the charges?

RUSSELL: I think that some of the officers should definitely lose their jobs. I think definitely Brelo is one of them. I don't know if it gives us solace or any sense of victory or justice, you know. We lost our loved ones. You know, they're no longer here. So we were expecting for -- the justice system is set up is that it's supposed to give you justice for crimes committed. You know? We didn't get any justice. We're without our family members.

YOUNG: You talk about how long this last two years has been. Can you describe to everybody at home just maybe how difficult this has been, and then to get to this day and then to walk away empty.

RUSSELL: Right. It's been a long journey for us emotionally. It's been a long, it's like, you know, you can grieve, if you have a death in your family, you grieve. And, you know, things kind of start to get back to normal a little bit. With this case we've constantly had to relive it, you know, throughout the two-year process, this two-and- a-half-year process, we've had to relive this, expecting justice for our loved one and we didn't get it.

YOUNG: You heard from her the fact that the community members tells us they will be protesting some more. There's only a small bit of protesters behind us. We're told Sunday and Monday more people will take to the streets. You're hearing straight from the family in terms of the fact they don't feel satisfied about this at all -- Poppy.

HARLOW: All right. Ryan Young, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Let's talk about it with our legal analyst Danny Cevallos joins me now. Also with us, Tom Fuentes, a former FBI deputy director, also formally a police officer. Guys, thanks for being here. Danny, let me begin with you. What is critical here, when you heard the judge set the scene before he read his verdict. He said this is an environment where you have the Ferguson, Staten Island, the Michael Brown case, et cetera. And he said, if he's not guilty, I'm not going to throw him out to people that want justice because of what's been happening across the country. What did you make of the judge's claim that because the officer he says feared for his life, believed that these people were armed, then he was fully justified and the killing was constitutional?

[17:05:13] DANNY CEVALLOS, LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the justification, Poppy, is just the tail end of the opinion. It's a very well written opinion and justified. And there are two reasons for this acquittal, two independent reasons, the first is the judge couldn't find beyond a reasonable doubt the element of causation. And to boil it down, the judge said that even though and this is fascinating, even though the officer took, he believes beyond a reasonable doubt. One of his shots was a fatal shot, he could not find beyond a reasonable doubt that the other shots that came from other officers which were equally as life- threatening, equally as fatal, were the ones that caused the death. It's a fascinating discussion of causation in this opinion. And then only after that does the judge discuss the affirmative defense of justification, the 120-mile-per-hour chase, the side sweeping police cars, the driving right at police officers and then concludes that, in addition to failing to prove causation in this case, the justification was because this officer reasonably believes that he or other brother officers were in fear of eminent serious physical harm.

HARLOW: Tom, when you look at 137 shots fired, what do you think?

TOM FUENTES, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Well, I think, you know, the number of shots sounds excessive, but to Danny's point, if there's justification for the use of deadly physical force, it doesn't limit, you know, whether it's one shot or 137 shots. So, you know, at that point the officers will continue shooting until they think the threat is over, and oftentimes under a high stress situation, if you've been driving -- I've been in high-speed pursuits. It's extremely stressful and you're very wired at the end of that. And what would happen is, typically officers firing shots would be unaware of an officer standing right next to them firing shots and wouldn't realize that that many had gone out. So that's part of the problem in these things. It always sounds excessive, but an officer firing his or her own shots would really not know all of the other shots being fired or be aware of it, only be focused on the threat that they're facing.

HARLOW: And you bring up these other officers. There were 13 in total. So 12 of the officers still. Danny, I wonder what you think in terms of what they may face in the justice system in terms of what this verdict does for their cases.

CEVALLOS: Well, their cases, I mean, from the beginning you had all of these officers firing off all these rounds, and one officer indicted. From the beginning you could see this was always going to be an issue of causation. Because in theory, according to those officers, they would each testify that each one of those shots was justified. And when officers shoot, they don't shoot to wound. They're shooting to stop the threat. I should add, too, there's another issue. We heard other people talking about how this officer jumped up on the hood of the car to fire into the car. And what's fascinating, Poppy, in this opinion is that there was testimony, expert testimony that it was against the general training of police officers to jump onto a hood and shoot people. But in spite of that, the judge still found that the reason that's against training is not for the safety of civilians, but for the safety of other officers. And that is some very interesting logic.

HARLOW: Yes. Danny Cevallos, Tom Fuentes, guys, thank you very much.

FUENTES: Poppy, if I could add to that very quickly, the reason he would have done is that, when you're trained in terms of shooting at a car, the bullet will ricochet off a windshield. So, he's trying to have it so it's not at an angle and firing bullets off into the distance, but having it perpendicular to the window so it would penetrate. That's what the rationale would be for getting up in the hood and shooting down into the windshield.

HARLOW: Understood. Guys, thank you very much. We'll going to talk a lot more about this. Appreciate it. Including this, the attorney -- the defense attorney representing the police officer in this case, what he had to say in the immediate aftermath of that verdict, and the mention of the NAACP. We'll talk more about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:12:36] HARLOW: The timing of this case is important to the context in which we're discussing it when we're talking about the Cleveland verdict that just came down. It comes at a time in America when the relationship between some police departments and some of the public is very strange. The judge in Michael Brelo's verdict reading today specifically addressed that. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE JOHN P. O'DONNELL, CUYAHOGA, COUNTY, OHIO: In many American places people are angry with, mistrusting and fearful of the police. Citizens think the men and women sworn to protect and serve have violated that oath or never meant it in the first place. Some of these places are unfamiliar, New York City and Baltimore. Some were unfamiliar until incidents there laid bare, the divide between the people and the police. Ferguson, Missouri. North Charleston, South Carolina.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: To talk about it with us, CNN political commentators Ben Ferguson a Marc Lamont Hill. Guys, thanks for being here.

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good to be here.

HARLOW: I certainly stopped in my track and listen when the judge opened like that, talking about the national environment. Marc, what do you think? Did he need to preface his verdict with those comments?

HILL: I think so. I think we tried to pretend that jurors are somehow objective and operating in a vacuum outside the broader social context. But the truth is jurors, everyday citizens and the judge have to think about this against the backdrop of what's happening in America. I think there's also a very practical concern that whatever happens today in this courtroom is going to be seen as in conversation with Ferguson, in conversation with Baltimore in New York, L.A., Charleston, et cetera. So, I think it was important to lay that out. Even if disagree with the decision, I think the ultimate point here was a significant one.

HARLOW: Ben?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I think it was very responsible by this judge to put this in context and to remind people that there's no reason for this to get out of hand in the streets or for there to be riots or cars set on fire, whatever it may be. And he obviously wanted to remind people, this is our city, we've got to take care of it. Yes, we have people that are upset with certain things. He may not agree with what the decision is today, but we need to take care of our city. And I think that's a smart decision for this judge to do.

HARLOW: So, I want you both to listen to what Officer Brelo's attorney, his defense attorney said in the courtroom to the media right after the verdict was read. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICK D'ANGELO, OFFICER BRELO'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And I hope that all the naysayers out there, all these so-called plaintiff's lawyers claim they're civil rights lawyers and never have tried one of these damn cases to a verdict, but are out there for a money grab all the time. Officer Brelo, it was the judge's opinion set forth, risked his life on that night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So he talked about risking his life on that night. What's your reaction to it, Marc?

HILL: I don't doubt that officers risks their lives every day. It comes with the job, and that's a different conversation. That's not to dismiss or disrespect what officers do. But the question here is, is there excessive force, number one? Did this person go too far? But also, there's the question of what does a comment like that do? It dismisses and disrespects the work of people every day who are advocating for black and brown and white people who are killed every day by law enforcement who are in the wrong end of state violence, that happens every single day. And most people aren't out for a money grab, they're not out here to cheat or steal money. They're out here to advocate for people who are again on the underside of American democracy. That's something very serious. And so, I think what he did just there is race baiting, it's dog whistling and it's dangerous. If you want to advocate for your client, fine, but don't disrespect all these people out here who are dying in the streets.

HARLOW: You know, Ben, he brought up the NAACP. What do you make of making those comments right after this verdict came down?

FERGUSON: Look, obviously he's very passionate about his client and feels that his client was given a very bad deal here and his life is going to be changed forever and he feels like his client risked his life by getting in front of that car, jumping on top of the car to make sure the angle of the bullet wouldn't ricochet. And that his partner and he wouldn't be killed. I mean, at the same time, it doesn't mean just because you think the right time to say it would be right now. Be glad that the verdict came down and your side won and walk away with a little bit professionalism and class. If you have those feelings, talk about it maybe later. But this was not I think the venue or the right moment to address this. You're going to have people that are going to be upset. There are people that did die in this situation. And I think you should be able to work classy when you have that moment in front of the camera and say, we're glad that this came down the way it did, we agree with the judge's decision, my client is going to try to move on with his life. But this was not the time to start a war in my opinion.

[17:17:30] HARLOW: All right. Ben, Marc, guys, thank you very much.

HILL: I agree. And that's why people are angry.

HARLOW: Thank you guys very much. Stick around. We'll going to talk much more with you little bit later this hour. Quick break. We're back in a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(FIT NATION TEAM): One, two, three, Fit Nation.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: The fit nation team is halfway to their goal of competing in the Nautica Malibu Triathlon this September. Last week they got together in southern California to swim, bike, run and have a little fun.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I've never been someone I thought that would inspire people to go work out, of all things. But you know, that's been interesting. They're like, oh, yes, you know, we saw this or we saw that on Facebook, we saw that on CNN. So, yes, I got off the coach and went to do this, or I went and ran three miles because you went and did this. That's been a good by product of what we've been trying to do.

GUPTA: They've made great progress over the first four months, losing weight, getting in shape mentally and physically. And all six are ready to take on their race.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: To be able to have that process put in front of you and that guidance and the help and the family atmosphere, it's been amazing.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta. CNN reporting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:21:52] HARLOW: Tensions are running high as tens of thousands of motorcyclists gather at different rallies this weekend across the country, this after a Texas police bulletin warned that some of those biker gangs may be plotting attacks on police. The warnings come almost a week -- actually a week after a deadly biker brawl in Waco, Texas, you'll remember last Sunday that killed nine people. More than 170 were arrested. Police confiscated hundreds of weapons ranging from high powered assault rifles, we're talking one AK-47 to chains with padlocks attached to them and knives. Let's talk about all this and the real threat versus perhaps the perceived threat.

What is reality and what is high dubbed with Jay Dobyns he is a former ATF agent who went undercover with the hell's angels for two years. He wrote about it in his book "no angel." Jay, thank you for being here. I appreciate it.

JAY DOBYNS, FORMER ATF AGENT: Thank you.

HARLOW: You know, I had a former Navy S.E.A.L., former FBI agent on the show yesterday who said to me, look, you know, you guys, the media are grouping all these bikers into one and this is just not the case. This is a real minority of them. He said, you know, most of them who have weapons, they're legal weapons. You were infiltrated, undercover with the hell's angels for two years. What do you make of that argument that perhaps some of this is hype?

DOBYNS: I give it the assessment that most of the people that are riding motorcycles, huge majority of the people and the clubs that are out riding motorcycles, that are enjoying the weekend, are not criminals, are law abiding citizens. It's the few gangs and gang members that cast a taint under the umbrella of all bikers.

HARLOW: So what did you see in your two years under cover?

DOBYNS: Well, I saw violence, extreme levels of violence, intimidation, power struggle, struggle for notoriety and for acknowledgments. But that was also witnessed amongst people that were just had a love of the romanticism of riding a motorcycle.

HARLOW: There are a lot of these motorcycle rallies happening this weekend, some of them in Texas, for example. Some of them got canceled. But you're looking at a map where a lot of these are taking place. Do you think that people should be concerned about a potential attack like was noted in that Texas police bulletin that they believe not only some police officers were being targeted this weekend, but also potentially even some of their family members?

DOBYNS: Absolutely they should be concerned. I take the threats against the law enforcement officers with 100 percent credibility and 100 percent seriousness. They have the ability to act in that manner. They have the tools of the trade to conduct those types of assaults, and I think for anybody out there, you need to be aware of your surroundings and who you're with and who is nearby, to stay safe.

HARLOW: What kind of role do you think establishments have in all this? Right? Because there's been a lot of criticisms thrown at this restaurant, the Twin Peaks restaurant saying, look, they got warnings from police officers, et cetera, they shouldn't have been allowed to gather there. They sort of encouraged gatherings like this. Anything wrong with that?

DOBYNS: Well, they have an obligation to their entire clientele in my view. And so, if they want to shut their doors down and only let certain people in, I can't tell them how to run their business. But if you're running a family business where people from society are coming in that are unaware of their surroundings or who they might be with, I think they have an obligation to keep all their clients and customers safe.

HARLOW: Jay, it's interesting to hear your perspective having been a part of it undercover for two years, thanks for being with me. Appreciate it.

DOBYNS: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

HARLOW: Coming up next, the Cleveland police officer found not guilty in the death of two unarmed motorists. The Department of Justice now announcing it will review this case. The story right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:28:58] HARLOW: Right now we're keeping an eye on some pretty small and calm protests in the streets of downtown Cleveland. This follows a verdict handed down earlier today in a case involving a 2012 police shooting. Just hours ago Officer Michael Brelo was acquitted in the deaths of an unarmed couple back in November of 2012, their names Timothy Russell and Malissa Williams, they were shot at close range in their car after a high-speed 22-mile police chase. Brelo and 12 other officers fired a total of 137 shots at their car. After the car backfired, the officers say they thought the car backfiring was actually the sound of a gunshot. Well, a short time ago Cleveland's police chief urged protesters on the streets to refrain from any violence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF CALVIN WILLIAMS, CLEVELAND POLICE: We are trying to ensure that people exercise their First Amendment rights, but within the bounds of the law and what's decent and necessary in the city. And, you know, people that commit violent acts, be it against property or persons, won't be tolerated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:30:00] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Following the not-guilty verdict, the Department of Justice weighed in saying it will review the case.

CNN's Athena Jones explains how that will look.

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Poppy. We do have a statement from the Department of Justice. This is from the head of the Civil Rights Division along with the U.S. attorney for the northern district of Ohio and the special agent in charge of the FBI office in Cleveland. I want to read part of their statement. "We will now review the testimony and evidence presented in the state trial. We will continue our assessment, review all available legal options and will collaboratively determine what, if any, additional steps are available and appropriate given the requirements and limitations of the applicable laws in the federal judicial system."

Now, I want to note that they have already been monitoring this case, monitoring the investigation from the very beginning, from back in November of 2012. So now they're conducting this review.

But I should mention this is not a full-scale civil rights investigation by the Justice Department. This is a review. We don't yet know what the results of that review will be. But it's important to note that if there were to be a full-scale civil rights investigation, that the bar in those cases for pressing federal charges is very, very high. Two recent cases that got a lot of attention, the shooting of Michael Brown by Officer Darren Wilson in Ferguson, Missouri last summer, and the shooting in 2012 of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman, those cases were both investigated by the Justice Department. No federal charges were brought against the shooter in either case. So it's an important thing to keep in mind as they begin this review, which we'll be watching to see the results of.

Back to you, Poppy.

HARLOW: Athena Jones, thank you.

Coming up, you probably heard this yesterday. The hit show "19 Kids and Counting," TLC pulling that show after molestation allegations against one of the stars of it. We'll trace back the alleged crime and apparent cover-up, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:35:36] HARLOW: The Josh Duggar molestation scandal may cost his family their hit TV show, "19 Kids and Counting" and a whole lot more. Duggar apologized this week after a report surfaced that he allegedly molested little girls when he was a teenager, including some of his own sisters.

Our Randi Kaye traces the Duggar scandal back to its beginning and some new powerful people entering the picture.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): 15 successful seasons for the Duggar family's reality show, "19 Kids and Counting." But the secret is out, Josh Duggar, now 27, and the oldest of the children on the TLC show, had sexually abused several girls when he was a teenager. And his parents didn't report it for some time. "In Touch" magazine broke the story.

RICK EGUSQUIZA, WEST COAST EDITOR, IN TOUCH MAGAZINE: It was total of five victims, and the ages, if you do the math, the range probably between 5 and 12 years old.

HARLOW: "In Touch" magazine obtained the 2006 police report. The magazine reports that Josh Duggar was investigated for multiple sex offenses, including some that were felonies. "In Touch" found that Jim Bob Duggar, Josh's father, told police he was made aware of it in 2002 when a girl complained Josh, then 14, had been touching her breasts and genitals while she slept. Instead of alerting authorities, the magazine said Jim Bob told police Josh had been disciplined. Then it reportedly happened again in 2003.

In a statement released Thursday, Josh Duggar said, "12 years ago, as a young teenager, I acted inexcusably for which I'm extremely sorry and deeply regret. I hurt others, including my family and close friends."

(on camera): What Josh Duggar's statement doesn't say is that his parents didn't tell police about what happened until one year after their son had confessed to them, one year. And even then, they reportedly alerted an Arkansas State trooper who was a family friend. That trooper didn't take any official police action.

(voice-over): Instead, the magazine says Trooper Joseph Hutchins gave Josh a very stern talk. Hutchins, by the way, is now serving 56 years in prison for child pornography.

Police only started investigating in 2006 after an anonymous letter to "The Oprah Winfrey Show" warning producers if the Duggars appearance on Oprah she would be embarrassed. Oprah's team called the child abuse hotline and police started asking questions. "In Touch" reports one of the victims told police in 2006 that Josh had told mother and dad what had happened and asked for forgiveness.

(SHOUTING)

KAYE: All of this has fans of the family's hit show reeling. The Duggars are devout Christians. Josh Duggar also worked as the executive director of FRC Action, the lobbying arm of the Family Research Council, a group known for advocating against the rights of the LGBT community. It also said gays pose a danger to children.

Josh also backed his mother's work opposing an ordinance designed to protect transgender people in Arkansas. Michelle Duggar compared transgenders to child predators.

EGUSQUIZA: To hear her son, most of the family knew what he had done in his past, so, yeah, it's hypocrisy.

KAYE: Josh Duggar stepped down from the Family Research Council Thursday, and TLC pulled "19 Kids and Counting" from the TV schedule.

Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Several high-profile GOP candidates posed for photographs with Josh Duggar, of course, long before the scandal broke. He also posed for a photo with President Bill Clinton in 2011.

Let's talk about this more with our political panel, Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill. Marc, let me begin with you.

How big of an issue is this? Is this an issue for some of those GOP candidates or hopefuls?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I hope not. There are a millions of reasons to criticize Republicans and Democrats. Standing next to a television star who you had no way of knowing was involved in these disgusting, disturbing and illegal acts, I would not hold a politician, either Democratic or Republican, accountable. I hope we don't play gotcha politics. I hope instead we focus on how to get this person treatment, how to right the wrong, and how to find justice for the victims. That's what we should be doing right now.

[17:40:02] HARLOW: Ben, I think it's interesting Mike Huckabee came out with this really long Facebook statement, an extensive one yesterday. I want to read part of it. He wrote, "Josh's actions when he was an underage teen, as he described them himself, are inexcusable, but that does not mean unforgivable. He and his family dealt with it and were honest and open about it with the victims and the authorities. No purpose whatsoever is served by those who are now trying to discredit Josh or his family by sensationalizing this story."

I was stunned actually to see a presidential candidate come out so quickly to support someone who has been -- apologized for child molestation.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I totally disagree with Mike Huckabee on this one. I don't know why he thought this was a reason to put this out there in a way defending him. You can forgive someone, yes. But the fact of the matter is, first of all, the family has committed a fraud, not only against the network they're on, but everyone they've eve been on stage with, taken pictures with or endorsed or worked with because they were not honest with authorities early on. They did not do the right thing with their son early on. They allowed it to happen again, which is also a massive problem. If you've ever known someone that's been sexually abused as a child or molested, you understand how long that stays with them. And I think it's disgusting that this family covered this up. Apparently, he also did not tell his employers about this behavior. And they did not handle this the way they're supposed to.

I've never been a big fan of this family. I've always thought it's been a little weird the way they act. I think they think they can somehow claim God and the Bible and this is all going to go away, and if people criticize them, they're going to claim they're being criticized because they're Christians. No, let me make this clear, you've been criticized because you were incredibly stupid for the way you handled this with your child. To pretend --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: Ben Ferguson with the win today!

FERGUSON: Well, instead of protecting the children who were molested and fondled, you cared more about your child. So don't use the Bible to hide behind this one, to the Duggar family.

HARLOW: That's the thing. Look, they waited so long to go to the authorities with this. Went to an authority who was apparently friends of the family, never reported it or brought it up the ranks. And it's a tragedy for the young girls who were molested.

FERGUSON: And here is the thing, when I say --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: -- let me make it clear why. They cared more about a TV show than they did about doing the right thing for the victims here. They cared more about getting paid than they did about the victims here. And they cared more about their family being a bigger deal in public than they did about the victims here. They should have the show canceled immediately.

HARLOW: Guys, got to leave it there.

Ben, thank you.

Marc, thank you.

Appreciate it.

Coming up next, switching gears here, Warren Buffett penning an op-ed in the "Wall Street Journal" yesterday talking about minimum wage. Is raising it the solution or not? We'll talk about it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:46:28] HARLOW: Here is the question, are America's poor the envy of the world? I ask, because that is what the richest Congressman in the United States told my colleague, Cristina Alesci. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DARRELL ISSA, (R), CALIFORNIA: America is the richest country on earth because we've been able to put capital together and we've been able to make our poor somewhat the envy of the world. If you go to India or you go to any number of other third-world countries, you have two problems. You have greater inequality of income and wealth. You also have less opportunity for people to rise from the have-not to the have. The quality of public education, the availability and access. So I think America is a good example. Can we do better? I think we can.

CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I don't think the comparison is one we want to make. We don't want to compare ourselves to India. We want to set the bar pretty high.

(CROSSTALK)

ISSA: I appreciate your comment, but you're wrong. You do have to compare yourself with the rest of the world. We compete with the rest of the world. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Congressman Issa later called out the critics who called his remarks insensitive. He wrote an op-ed for theHill.com and he wrote, in part, quote, "The median poor family with children in the United States live in an air-conditioned home, with three color televisions, cable or satellite TV, a DVD player and a video game system."

Right now, consider this, the federal minimum wage in this country $7.25 an hour. That amounts to an annual salary of $14,500 a year, far below the poverty level for most families of four. A number of cities and states raising their minimum wage across the country, some as high as $15. Just this week, Los Angeles, the city council there, voted to raise the minimum wage to $15 by 2020. That is by far the largest city yet to make the move. Also this week, thousands of McDonald's workers protested for that same $15 per hour minimum wage. They protested outside the company's annual shareholder meeting.

My next guest says the best way to close the gap between the haves and the have-nots begins with increasing the minimum wage.

Rana Foroohar is CNN's global economic analyst. She joins me now, after penning a piece this week in "Time," called "Here's the Secret Truth about Economic Inequality in America."

Thank you for being here, Rana.

RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST: Thank you for having me.

HARLOW: Appreciate it very much.

Let's begin with this. Make the economic case that raising the minimum wage actually improves the economy, improves things for people that need it most and doesn't cost them jobs.

FOROOHAR: Well, all the research at this stage really shows there's not a huge cost to raising the minimum wage. And that comes from the Congressional Budgetary Office. That's something that's partisan. Going to the point that was made earlier about how, yes, the average poor family in America has an air-conditioned home, flat-screen TV, sure, those kinds of consumer goods have been falling in price. But the thing is, the elements of a middle class life, education, health care, are actually going up. So getting yourself up the rungs of the ladder socioeconomically in this country is getting harder and harder.

HARLOW: I was just with a mother in Bridgeport, Connecticut, last week who is barely making it. She lives in Section 8 housing. She told me food is getting more expensive every day.

FOROOHAR: Right.

HARLOW: But I'm going to push back on you. Look what Walmart said this week. They raised their minimum wage to $9.00 in April. It's going up to $10 for all their entry level workers. Their earnings report came out. It got hit. Pretty significantly -- you're laughing -- they say as a result of raising the wages. They did say they expect raising wages to have a long-term positive impact because their employees will spend more money. But it does take a toll on business.

[17:50:04] FOROOHAR: Yeah. Well, I'll say two things. First of all, the corporate share of the overall market pie in this country is at record highs. So I'm not weeping for Walmart or any of the Fortune 500. The labor share is at its lowest share in decades. That actually affects companies like Walmart because this is an economy made up of 70 percent consumer spending. The same people who spend at Walmart need in any their pocket to spend. This is not a one-sided story. A lot of people who feel, if we got get wages up beyond fifteen an hour, we won't --

(CROSSTALK)

FOROOHAR: Here's what I think. I think raising the minimum to $15 an hour is a great first step for families that are struggling or below the poverty line. That's not going to solve the economic growth question and the shrinking --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: I want you to hear some of this. Warren Buffett, smart guy, a guy who's a liberal, supported President Obama, wrote an op-ed in the "Wall Street Journal" yesterday about minimum wage. He wrote, quote, "In my mind, the country's economic policies should have two main objectives. First, we should wish in our rich society for every person who is willing to work to receive income that will provide him or her a descent lifestyle. Second, any plan to do that should not distort our market system, the key element required for growth and prosperity. That second goal crumbles in the plan to sizably increase the minimum wage. I may wish to have all jobs pay at least $15 an hour, but that minimum wage almost certainly would reduce employment in a major way."

What he says is the solution lies in a dramatic change to the earned income tax credit, something that already exists, but should be expanded. It encourages people to work. When they file their taxes with the federal government, he thinks they should get more money back as a result. And he says at the same time that maximizes employment.

FOROOHAR: Yeah.

HARLOW: Is that a better solution?

FOROOHAR: Earned income tax is a great solution. I think is a lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum would like to see it expanded way beyond where it is now. I think there's not one silver bullet here. Raising the minimum wage is, in certain parts of the country, a great idea.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: He argues that will limit employment.

FOROOHAR: I actually disagree with that. I think you can look at research by folks like Allen Blinder, former vice chair of the chair. Other that's would disagree. It will hit certain do is particularly at the lower end, but I think the spending power that creates and the stability economically that creates would be a great thing. But frankly we have bigger fish to fry here. By raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, that doesn't create the big massive middle income jobs.

HARLOW: You talk that about that in your piece. You think that the shrinking middle class is even a bigger problem.

FOROOHAR: I do. Because frankly $15 an hour, even that doesn't get you to a stable middle class life. You really need $25 an hour, $50 an hour jobs. Those have been going away. We have jobs at the top for PhDs. Six out of the top-10 fastest growing top job categories are at the bottom. We need those jobs in the middle. Certain local communities are doing interesting things. You're seeing a revival of small manufacturing in Detroit. Cleveland has a new co-op system where they're pouring foundation money into small businesses. There are slums out there.

HARLOW: Why should people care about this?

FOROOHAR: Because it affects the entire growth of this economy. If we don't get people having more money in their pocket, then everybody's business is going to suffer. The overall recovery, which frankly is still the weakest and lowest one in post-war era will stay weak, is going to stay weak.

HARLOW: It's true. It's taken us a long time to get out of this recession than prior recessions.

Do you think this will be issue number one, two or three in this campaign? FOROOHAR: Economic issue, number one. You're hearing Hillary Clinton

to start to talk about this. You're hearing Republicans start to talk about it, too, which is very interesting.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Absolutely. Paul Ryan went into poor communities, took a tour through them.

FOROOHAR: Absolutely. It's going to be really interesting to see first of all how Republicans go beyond trickle-down economics, which most people feel are broken at this stage. And also how Hillary Clinton goes just beyond the $15 an hour and redistribute wealth conversation of the Democratic Party. She needs to talk about, how are we going to reshape the tax system so we're not just rewarding the wealthy.

HARLOW: She may have to distance herself from some of the policies under her husband's presidency, and she may have to step way aside from that this time around.

FOROOHAR: These are ghosts from the past that will have to be dealt with in the future.

HARLOW: Rana, a fascinating piece in "Time." Thank you so much. FOROOHAR: Thank you.

[17:54:36] HARLOW: Check out Rana's piece.

We appreciate it.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: For nearly a decade, this "CNN Hero" has been introducing a world of nature and possibility to kids used to living in a sea of concrete. We want you to meet Marilyn Price, this week's "CNN Hero."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARILYN PRICE, CNN HERO: A lot of kids have never really left the city. To them, everything is concrete.

Is everybody excited?

I decided to take kids who never had my kind of experience on these mountain bike rides.

OK, you guys, let's hit the road.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wasn't trying in high school. I was getting straight "F"s. I got expelled. When we go on bike rides, I kind of feel like it clears my mind.

PRICE: Looking good.

I've been doing this for almost 30 years. You bring them where there are no buildings. It is like, wow, I didn't know that this exists.

And then we have our Earn A Bike Program where kids in the community come after school.

What's wrong with it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The chain.

PRICE: So the chain is loose?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

PRICE: They learn how to work on bikes, and they earn points toward bikes of their own.

Oh, that looks great.

They learn good job skills.

This bike is getting quite an overhaul.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now I have "A"s and "B"s. They're like my guide to a better life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[17:59:55] HARLOW: What a wonderful woman in all she's doing.

Thank you so much for being with me this evening. I'm Poppy Harlow, in New York.

"Smerconish" is next.