Return to Transcripts main page

Amanpour

The Fall of Ramadi; The Fight to Save Syria's History; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 25, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

FRED PLEITGEN, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: tactical setback or strategic failure? After the loss of Ramadi, Iraq's deputy prime minister

tells me it will take more than weapons to beat ISIS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SALEH AL-MUTLAQ, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER OF IRAQ: Without having a political, you know, solution to the problems in Iraq, without having a

reconciliation in the country. The military side of the battle cannot work alone.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

PLEITGEN (voice-over): Also, killing a culture: the author of the famous book turned film, "The Monuments Men," talks to me about the tragedy

in Syria's ancient city of Palmyra.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

PLEITGEN: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Fred Pleitgen, sitting in for Christiane all this week.

So what exactly does the fall of Ramadi to ISIS mean? And what about the efforts to take it back?

Honest answers to those questions are almost impossible to get. U.S. President Barack Obama called the fall of Ramadi, quote, "a tactical

setback."

But his own Defense secretary can't mask his frustration, telling CNN's Barbara Starr he's not sure whether Iraq's military has the will to

take on ISIS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASH CARTER, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The Iraqi forces just showed no will to fight. They were not outnumbered; in fact, they vastly

outnumbered the opposing force and yet they failed to fight. They withdrew from the site and that says to me -- and I think to most of us -- that we

have an issue with the will of the Iraqis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Strong words. Well, Iraqi's prime minister, Haider al- Abadi, took issue with those comments and fired back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HAIDER AL-ABADI, PRIME MINISTER OF IRAQ: I'm surprised why he said that. He was very supportive of Iraq. I'm sure he was fed with the wrong

information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Now in the fight against ISIS, America's unofficial ally is Iran. Let's face it. The head of that country's powerful Quds Force

addressed the American president directly.

"Mr. Obama," General Qassim Suleimani, said, "how far are your bases from Al-Ramadi? You established a presence in Iraq on the pretense of

supporting that nation but you did not do a damn thing. Doesn't this mean that there is no will to confront ISIS?"

So back to the question, what does the loss of Ramadi really mean? Moments ago I spoke with Saleh al-Mutlaq, Iraqi's Sunni vice prime minister

and he paints an alarming picture of Iraqi security forces and the country's future.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN: Deputy Prime Minister al-Mutlaq, thank you for joining the program.

AL-MUTLAQ: Thank you.

PLEITGEN: First of all, I have to get your reaction to the comments that Ash Carter made, questioning whether the Iraqi military has the will

to fight against ISIS.

AL-MUTLAQ: Well, the Iraqi military, they pulled out of Ramadi in a way which I'm not accustomed to it, which did not see before with the

experience of the Iraqi army. It was an action that surprised all of us, that an army with all this power would withdraw against such a small enemy

that attacked them.

PLEITGEN: But isn't one of the problems, sir, that we have seen similar retreats before?

We've seen them in Mosul. We've seen them in Fallujah.

Isn't the problem that the Iraqi military needs to get together, needs to organize itself and finally get rid of ISIS?

AL-MUTLAQ: Yes. Well, that was what we've been saying since 2003. First, you should not dissolve the Iraqi army and the Americans did

dissolve the Iraqi army. And then we said since you have already decided to dissolve the Iraqi army, now you have to build a national army which is

not sectarian, which is a professional army.

But unfortunately, the army was built in a way that the militias was entered in it and also it was not built on a national basis but on a

sectarian one.

And that army did huge mistakes in Mosul, which meant the people worked against them and they did not stand against ISIS when ISIS entered

Mosul. And the army scared from Mosul.

Now we have another experience in Ramadi. Actually, it's not clear for us why such a unit, which supposed to be trained by the Americans for

years and supposed to be one of the best units in the army, would withdraw from Ramadi in such a way and left the weapons behind them.

PLEITGEN: Well, now Prime Minister al-Abadi has called in Shiite militias to help liberate Ramadi, to get ISIS out of Ramadi; at the same

time Sunni fighters, who were inside Ramadi, complained that they did not get enough ammunition to hold off ISIS. And now Shiite fighters are being

called in to try and liberate the city.

How is that supposed to work?

AL-MUTLAQ: That was the problem from the beginning. We've been saying, please arm the people who are from Ramadi and from the Sunni areas

to fight ISIS, because they are the one who are capable of fighting ISIS, as they fight -- as they fought Al Qaeda in 2007 and 2008.

It was unfortunate. It's neither the Iraqi government supplies those people, I mean, the people from Ramadi. to defend themselves, nor the Arab

countries. And also the Americans did not supply to us people with the weapons, equivalent to the weapons ISIS have.

PLEITGEN: But, sir, all the problems that you just outlined have been known for a very long time. It was the middle of last year that ISIS

overran large parts of Iraq.

Since then, it was clear what needed to be done. There needed to be a government of national unity; the Iraqi security forces needed to be

reformed so that they would be inclusive of all people. And yet nine months later, here we are in a situation where once again the military has

been overrun.

What's been done in that time?

AL-MUTLAQ: Without having a political, you know, solution to the problems in Iraq, without having a reconciliation in the country, the

military side of the battle cannot work alone.

That is, we have to go ahead and do the reconciliation between people and give the people the demands they wanted. They stood on the street for

more than a year, asking for small demands and nobody gave them anything. So now they need hope in order to get the people involved in the battle.

We have to give them hope that after ISIS, the future will be OK for them. They are not certain now if they could fight ISIS.

And if they fight ISIS, what is after ISIS?

Actually there is a worry among the people and among us about what is going to happen after ISIS.

PLEITGEN: Sir, you yourself are from the city of Fallujah, which is still under ISIS' control.

And the big question right now is where do these people, the Sunnis of Iraq, feel they belong?

Do they feel that they have a future in Iraq?

Do they feel that things are truly changing with the Abadi government?

Do they feel that things will get better for them if, in fact, ISIS is ousted?

AL-MUTLAQ: Yes, actually at the beginning they had some hope. But then with time, they see -- they see nothing from the agreement between the

Shiite coalition and the Sunnis' part about the items that they agreed to do by, you know, being in the government.

But there are very minor things that had been done since the formation of the government. This meant the people, they are losing hope. This is

why I think we need the international help also.

ISIS is not from Iraq. ISIS came to us from outside. And we have to remember that Iraq become in such a way because of the occupation and

because of the withdrawal and -- from Iraq in a way which was not responsible.

PLEITGEN: Do you think at this point -- and this is a question many people ask -- that many of the Sunni in Iraq, they don't support ISIS?

They don't want to be with ISIS. They're not radical.

But at the same time, they're also very much afraid of the central government in Baghdad and of a lot of the sectarian policies that have come

out of it over the years.

AL-MUTLAQ: I do agree 100 percent that the Sunni people, they are not with ISIS. And this is for sure. But they did not have the courage to

fight ISIS as they should be because they are not certain that, after ISIS, their future is going to be much better than what they have now.

What they have with daish is a very bad thing. But they are not certain that is what is going to come after that is different.

PLEITGEN: Sir, in many ways, you are their representative in the Iraqi government.

Do you feel that you're being taken seriously in the Abadi administration?

Do you feel that you can voice those concerns and that those concerns are acted on?

AL-MUTLAQ: No, actually I don't feel that we are participating in a way as we wanted. Without involving the other section, the other people in

the government, in the leadership of the security issue, I don't think there will be a real contribution.

Also we feel that the intention of Mr. Abadi is good, is OK. But what we see on the ground until now is not enough to convince us that things are

going to be working in a proper way.

PLEITGEN: Vice Prime Minister Saleh al-Mutlaq, thank you very much for joining the program.

AL-MUTLAQ: Thank you, indeed. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN: A bleak outlook there. And after a break, fighting to preserve the past. I speak to the founder of the Monuments Men Foundation

on saving Syria's history. He will come to us live from Dallas, Texas, as across the United States, the fallen are remembered today, celebrating

Memorial Day and reflecting upon the lives of soldiers lost in active duty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN (voice-over): President Obama and other top officials pay tribute at Arlington National Cemetery where more than 400,000 service

members have been laid to rest. A moment of silence began the ceremony.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

PLEITGEN: Welcome back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN (voice-over): "When the past no longer illuminates the future, the spirit walks in darkness." The French political thinker Alexis

de Tocqueville said these words. But they're also sadly fitting to describe the situation in Syria today.

There's no doubt that darkness has befallen the country as the current and future generations are slaughtered in the civil war that's claimed more

than 300,000 lives. Syria's past is being quickly destroyed as well and with it the very fabric of this nation.

The old town of Homs and the ancient market of Aleppo have been bombed and burned and now ISIS threatens to flatten the historic ruins of Palmyra,

peer landmarks all Syrians were proud of. Their demise illustrates the ongoing eradication of a great Middle Eastern culture.

In the 1930s and 1940s Europe was faced with a similar annihilation of its cultural heritage. But thanks to a U.S. military unit, many historic

pieces and artworks were recovered. They were known as the Monuments Men, and their amazing story was the subject of a recent Hollywood movie

starring George Clooney.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to have to jump ahead of the third army and get into Germany.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can I help you steal our stolen art?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can wipe out an entire generation. You can burn their homes to the ground and somehow they'll still find a way back.

But if you destroy their history, if you destroy their achievements, then it's as if they never existed.

That's what Hitler wants. That is exactly what we're fighting for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Robert Edsel is the founder of the Monuments Men Found and the author of the book, "The Monuments Men: Allied Heroes, Nazi Thieves

and the Greatest Treasure Hunt in History," which, of course, was turned into that motion picture.

He joins me now live from Dallas.

And, Robert, welcome to the program.

ROBERT EDSEL, AUTHOR: Thank you, Fred.

PLEITGEN: Sir, what you're seeing in Syria must break your heart. And also you've also said that you believe that the lessons from the

Monuments Men haven't been heard.

Why?

EDSEL: Well, it's of course heartbreaking but so is the loss of 200,000-300,000 people in this civil war and I think as much as we value

and treasure these shared cultural treasures of mankind, we should never lose track of the fact that there are lives that are at risk here.

The Monuments Men and Women, these are museum directors, curators, art historians, who during World War II, volunteered to become a new kind of

soldier when charged with saving rather than destroying, established a precedent which we haven't seen since then.

We've had a lot of organizations that have been created, a lot of laws passed about protecting cultural property. But we've never had world

leaders like President Roosevelt, Prime Minister Churchill and General Eisenhower speak about the importance of the protection of cultural

treasures.

And we've paid some horrible prices in 2003, in the aftermath of the American invasion of Iraq, failure to protect the cultural treasures there.

And it was the price that we continue to pay, despite all the great work by the American military afterwards, trying to recover things that are

missing.

So we've been through this before. As bad as ISIS is, as just horrific as these images are that we're seeing, this is a replay of what

we've seen during World War II, with modern technology and the use of media.

PLEITGEN: Well, if you say we have organizations like UNESCO, for instance, what do you think can be done? If you look at the situation in

Syria, you look at the situation in Iraq, where, of course, on the one hand, you have the destruction of cultural goods, you also have the looting

and selling of cultural goods.

What do you think can be done?

EDSEL: Right. Well, we've -- I think we've ceded the decision about Syria's cultural treasures largely to ISIS. You know, the principal tenet

of the Monuments Men effort was preparedness and there was enormous amount of planning that went into this, in advance, because the priority was

established at the top. President Roosevelt made this a priority; General Eisenhower issued orders; the Monuments Men and Women were alongside the

forces. Force protection was a critical element of the work of the Monuments Men. General Eisenhower had 3.6 million soldiers under his

command in Europe and still there were two monuments officers killed during combat, protecting works of art.

So we have to understand that trying to send in monuments officers today as well intended as that might be is a suicide mission without the

force protection. So we're faced with these difficult decisions, you know, my focus would be on those places ISIS has not that they might be likely to

head towards -- Baghdad certainly would be on that list -- and make sure that the efforts are being made to protect those things there.

The looting that's going on to the degree that we can verify that, a lot of the discussions have focused on treating the symptoms. Obviously

the cause is ISIS and this is a huge problem and my frustration really is these expressions of outrage without action are outrageous. The fact of

the matter is they stir false hope and they also bring visibility to these cultural destructions of ISIS that continue because they bring important

media coverage.

PLEITGEN: What do you think can be done?

Do you think that there's any reason to catalog these things, to try and get sort of -- there is sort of a Syrian version of the Monuments Men

that tries to take pictures of these things, that tries to get in touch with people who have illegally obtained these things.

What do you think can be done? It's a (INAUDIBLE) --

(CROSSTALK)

PLEITGEN: -- situation there.

EDSEL: Well, it's a very difficult situation. Again, we saw this happen in Europe with the invasion of Nazi Germany in countries east and

west, into Poland and then into the western countries. Look, the whole concept of protection of cultural property has to begin at home.

The 1954 Hague Convention for the protection of cultural property, which was structured on the lessons learned from the Monuments Men and

Women's experience during WWII -- we must say that; there were women involved as well who did a critical role -- it stipulated that all

countries that were members to this treaty would provide and create their own monuments force to protect works of art within their own country. That

was in 1954. Syria was, I think, the 16th country to sign this in 1958. And we see where we are today.

Many countries did not do that and we're paying a price for it today. I certainly think it's worth pointing out, the protection has to begin with

people in Syria, just like it did in Europe and Russia with museum officials and volunteers who risked their lives, many of whom lost their

lives, trying to evacuate works of art out of the country in World War II. So many of the great works of art in Spain were placed on a truck caravan,

due to the civil war in Spain and taken to Switzerland, where they sat out the war.

Works of art such as the "David" and "The Last Supper" were protected in place by local museum officials; in the case of "The Last Supper,"

saving it from bombing by American and British forces of Milan during the war.

So there were precedents of these things; the theft of cultural objects, in a perverse way, may result in their survival. If they stay in

Syria, they may be destroyed. So that's not advocating theft, of course, but we're not going to know until all of this is over how effective the

Syrians have been concerning protecting their cultural treasures because obviously they can't advertise that any more than the CIA can advertise its

successes.

So we'll come to find out later -- and of course we know from the past there's sometimes inaccurate reporting. The initial reportings of the

looting of the museum in Baghdad in 2003, reporting there were 270,000 objects that were missing or stolen, in a matter of weeks we would find out

the number was more like 15,000 -- very important things. But the reason for the difference in the number were the efforts on the local people in

Baghdad to bury objects in the sand, to take them home, understanding what was coming.

So it's a very, very difficult situation; it's a fluid situation. But we've been through this before and leadership at some point in time will

have to make a decision about the importance of trying to address this particular issue in the broader picture of saving lives.

PLEITGEN: Robert Edsel in Dallas, Texas, thank you very much for joining the program.

EDSEL: Thank you.

PLEITGEN: Observing the human cultural catastrophe unfolding in Syria sometimes one needs to cling to little things to maintain hope.

Like a little Syrian bird that faces extinction but now may have the future. The three remaining Northern bald ibis, the rarest bird in the

Middle East, seems to be doomed after their keepers fled the ISIS advance in Palmyra where they were kept.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN (voice-over): Will they, too, fall prey to the terror group? Well, now we have information that they're safe in the haven location and

apparently with an egg promising a new generation.

Again, of course, only a small ray of light in the darkness of the Syrian conflict.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Now after a break, imagine a world where humans seeking refuge are given a second chance. It's the world of one remarkable hotel.

We'll check in after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

PLEITGEN: And finally tonight, imagine for a second what it would be like to be a refugee. Many of them come from the places we report on:

Iraq, Syria, Africa, Afghanistan -- tens of thousands flee their home, their cultures on a dangerous journey.

But instead of comfort, they often find animosity in the places they arrive. Now imagine a world where it is refugees that make you feel

comfortable and at home on your travels. That's the extraordinary world of the Hotel Magdas in Vienna. Management has hired around 20 refugees from

crisis zones across the globe to help run the hotel. This is Denis (ph), the receptionist. He welcomes guests in the lobby that features a poster

appealing for help in the Mediterranean crisis, a journey he knows all too well. He fled persecution in Guinea Bissau, smuggled across the sea in a

ship.

His story is just one amongst the many that now decorate the walls of the hotel. Others include a Yazidi who fled Iraq, an Algerian escaping

violence and one woman running from homophobic attacks. They all help run this business; Chef Sameer told a CNN affiliate about his new life in

Austria's capital after fleeing Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMEER, CHEF, HOTEL MAGDAS (through translator): It's very good. I'm so happy in Austria. This is not like my country. My country is a

catastrophe. There are such great people here. I have so many friends here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Now in a safe haven, the refugee staff can make visitors feel welcome in a sanctuary of their own making.

And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Twitter

@FPleitgenCNN. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

END