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Protests In Baltimore Over "Baltimore Sun" Report; High-Water Rescues Underway in Houston; Sirens in Israel After Rocket Fire from Gaza Falls in Southern Israel; American Trying to Join ISIS Tricked to Return to U.S., Arrested. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired May 26, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:30:00] HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Right. And police officers aren't really worried so much about the criminal charges. You know, they're worried about the saying that police officers are guilty off the bat. Police officers want -- (CROSSTALK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: We know that's not the case.

HOUCK: Well, police officers want the benefit of the doubt because of the job we have. I'm not saying give them a free pass. What I'm saying is give police officers the benefit of the doubt when an incident occurred. Wait until the investigation is conducted, and then take whatever action has to be taken.

BALDWIN: But this is not OK.

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right.

BALDWIN: Holding back is not OK.

HOUCK: It's not OK.

LAMONT HILL: For me, there are several problems. First of all, if the conception the police hold of proactive policing is what you describe include is chasing people who are guilty down an alley as opposed to talking community building relations, knowing the neighborhood, establishing healthy bonds, that is the atom of the problem that the idea of proactive policing has nothing to do with the community. It has nothing to do with that. If they're holding back because lives are lost, that's something to blame the police for. I hope you're wrong. Let me finish. I hope you're wrong. I hope --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: I hope the police are going the extra step to stop crime from happening. To me the biggest problem is the idea do people are spending this narrative, that crime is going up because people have the audacity to charge police for do not things. That intimidates the public form calling on the police of what they're doing wrong. That, to me, is the problem.

HOUCK: That's not true. Saying police officers are not proactive -- they are answering the calls, they are professionals. (CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: You're saying they're not taking the extra step --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: The proactive step.

HOUCK: OK. That guy -- the guy's making moves that are consistent with somebody who might be carrying a gun. I'm not going to try and make a move on this guy here or talk to him because who knows what could happen now. You know, so that's why officers are holding back. And you define officers holding back in cities across the country.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: There's no evidence.

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: I'm talking to them.

LAMONT HILL: I know. But because --

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: Homicides are up 60 percent this week from this week to last year in the city alone.

LAMONT HILL: You're saying because of Eric Garner?

HOUCK: I'm not saying because of --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: You're taking the anecdotes --

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: No, I'm not.

LAMONT HILL: -- an anecdote that's outdated. Because you have stories, it doesn't mean it's true.

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: Are you spinning --

LAMONT HILL: No. You said the police --

HOUCK: I am talking about to police officers all over, and it wasn't --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: Harry -- HOUCK: You put Eric Garner in it.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: What I'm saying is just because you have conversations with police officers does not mean that police officers are holding back and making crime goes up.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: You are you making a leap of your experience. It's not true.

BALDWIN: What we were talking about specifically, the line of the conversations Baltimore. You have those numbers. The highest in eight years.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: That is fact.

LAMONT HILL: There are a lot of other factors in Baltimore other than just the four or five people who have Harry's cell phone number. For example --

(LAUGHTER)

-- prisons are being invested instead of education. Early childhood education, we're divesting from it. Early literacy, after school programs, we're divesting from. It big brothers, big sisters, we're divesting from. It all of those things stop crime and reduce violence. When people have jobs, they don't kill each other --

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: Who is taking the programs away?

LAMONT HILL: There are a --

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: The government of Baltimore. We'll stay on Baltimore. The governor of Baltimore is taking them away. Look at, a million dollars they're going to build a juvenile prison --

LAMONT HILL: Let them.

HOUCK: -- and these kids have nowhere to go. The schools are bad. Why do we have a 55 percent dropout rate in Baltimore and wonder why kids turn to crime?

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: You're supporting my point. The structural problem --

(CROSSTALK) HOUCK: Baltimore, the inner cities have to take control of their own city. They're out there demonstrating now. I love it. Go out and demonstrate and say, listen, we need that $11 million --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: We've been doing that for 20 years.

HOUCK: I never see it!

BALDWIN: Hold on. Time out!

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: I'll give them your cell phone number.

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: Gentlemen, let's be precise on the ""Baltimore Sun" reporting. There's a misnomer that money is going to jailing. Let's be specific and say "Baltimore Sun," money toward jail is to help educate youth incarcerated. The issue is a lot of young people are put in adult jails and aren't getting an education. If they go to the juvenile system, at least they will be schooled as opposed to not at all.

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: It really doesn't work.

LAMONT HILL: But there is a statewide problem of investing in prison. We say --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: As a professor, I want to hear from you.

LAMONT HILL: There's an investment in mass incarceration over education that we see in most major states that trickles down to urban areas, cities. And that is a fundamental problem. Again, statistically, we know what works. We're not investing in what works, we're investing in response to crisis.

HOUCK: When you want to see economic investment comes to cities like Baltimore where the riots were, crime's got to drop. Nobody's going there because they have high crime. They had to pull teeth to get a CVS in and it was burnt down. So a lot of companies don't want to go in.

Like you're saying, I think the cops should go out and talk to people. I think that needs to be done --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: And not shoot them. Can we agree on them?

HOUCK: There's times you've got to shoot somebody. Let's put it that way.

LAMONT HILL: That's not what the --

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: Let's not blanket every time a cop shoots someone it's murder --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: Not every time, just when they're unarmed and running away.

BALDWIN: Finish your thought.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: This frustrates people.

BALDWIN: I understand. But had the police --

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: Have the police talk to the people, get the community together and start community policing. Are we going to see that in Baltimore? Has the politicians given the police department the money to go into those communities and start a proper program?

[14:35:14] LAMONT HILL: That's a good -- I agree on that.

BALDWIN: Here we go.

LAMONT HILL: All right. Here we go.

BALDWIN: We're going to end on that.

(LAUGHTER)

Marc Lamont Hill, Harry Houck, thank you very much. It's an important conversation. I have a feeling we will continue to have. I appreciate you.

Coming up next, the city of Houston under water. Now as we look at the numbers, two people have lost their lives. Hundreds of cars totally submerged in the rising floodwaters. When could the city see relief from the rain and flash floods? We'll let you know.

Another American accused of helping ISIS. He has been arrested, this time, in Texas. How this trick got him to hop on a plane and fly home to the United States.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:39:59] BALDWIN: We've been talking a lot about the absolute devastation in so many parts of Texas because of the flash flooding and rainfall. And even some worries of tornadoes this. We've seen water rescues. We've seen schools, cars under water.

And I want to share an image with you that I have never seen. You'll see this picture. It is a casket. This is what is happening here in Houston because of the waters. This is apparently near a cemetery. And so as if you can't have anything worse possibly happen, you have caskets now being removed from under water because the flooding in this area.

Nearly a foot of rain overnight in Houston brought the city to a standstill. Two people died because of the weather, raising the overall death toll now from the storm system that's been ravaging Texas and Oklahoma, northern Mexico to at least 22. In terms of Texas alone, 37 counties there have been declared disaster areas. And the search continues for at least a dozen people who are still missing.

Let me bring in Danny Perez, spokesman for the Texas Department of Transportation.

And Danny, just in terms of sheer numbers that you're looking at, how many roads, how many highways in Houston are just absolutely unusable right now?

DANNY PEREZ, TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION (voice-over): Right now we have multiple roadways that are still under water. We've seen a reduction in -- earlier this morning, we had about 40-something locations, about 45 locations that were having high water. Right now we're at 23. And that's going to be on the state road system and also in the adjacent or nearby toll facilities. So we've been monitoring those. We have folks on the roadways scouting, checking things out. We also have -- we're monitoring with our camera systems, our eastern camera seasons monitoring roadways and making sure thing are flowing. If we see issues, we are putting that on social media, on our website. Trying to keep folks updated out this. It's been a very busy day for us. This happened, taken place overnight last night. And we've been monitoring it and trying to -- hoping things are better out there for motorists.

BALDWIN: We're looking at pictures -- one, two, three, four cars in the mud and muck of the floodwaters. And I can imagine the challenge to try to rescue people within. Now you have a bunch of abandoned cars around the state.

DANNY PEREZ: We are working with our partners, the city of Houston Office of Emergency Management making sure we're getting anything we can to address the roadway or get them open. Of course, it depends on the bayous and receding waters to take effect, making sure we can get the roadways open. We are asking folks that it doesn't require any travel, you don't have to be on the roadway, not be on the road. The main situation you're not only putting your life in danger, but other folks' lives in danger such as first responders, emergency worker. We're trying to reduce the potential danger out there for folks, and want to make sure we're getting folks safely out of the dangerous situation.

BALDWIN: Danny Perez, you guys have a huge job on your hands.

Spokesperson, Texas DOT.

Thank you very much for hopping on the phone with me.

DANNY PEREZ: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Let you get back to what you need to be doing. Thank you very much. Breaking news just in to CNN. Sirens, sirens going off in Israel

after a rocket fire from Gaza fell in southern Israel. Those details after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:48:02] BALDWIN: To our breaking news. Air raid sirens are sounding in Israel. Here's what we know right now. According to Israeli police spokeswoman, one rocket hit an area, this is outside of southern Israel, right around 9:00, 9:10 p.m. local Tuesday time.

Orrin Lieberman is our correspondent in Jerusalem.

Orrin, tell me what you know and where there came from.

ORRIN LIEBERMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From the spokesperson's office, at least one rocket was fired from Gaza into Israel. That rocket landed in a small town which is to the east of one of the main cities in Israel and one that often comes under threat of rocket attacks. The sirens sounded. The IDS spokesperson's office said there was no damage, no injuries. And there has been no claim of responsibility yet from the organizations within Gaza. That would be Hamas and Islamic jihad. That's what we know. One rocket landed outside one of Israel's major southern cities. No injuries and no damage.

BALDWIN: I recognize that as a place that have received fire before. Why is that?

LIEBERMAN: It is one of the main cities outside of Gaza. It has short-range rockets. It often comes under threat of attacks o attacks. It is unfortunately used to hearing sirens. It's been fairly quiet. There was a rocket fired a month ago after Israel's Independence Day, one rocket fired that direction. Again, no injuries, no damage, that responsibility -- sorry, that attack was -- Islamic jihad claimed responsibility. Since then it's been quiet until tonight. So we have a report that one rocket came over from Gaza into Israel. Once again, no damage, no casualties, no injuries, and yet no claim of responsibility. We will certainly keep listening and wait to hear who claims responsibility for the rocket.

[14:50:08] BALDWIN: Let us know how this situation develops. We'll stay in close contact with you in Jerusalem.

Orrin Lieberman, thank you very much for getting on the phone with me. I appreciate it, out of Jerusalem, as I said.

Meantime, another American has been charged with plotting to join ISIS, this time, a 20-year-old man from Houston. The Justice Department says Ashar Abi Kahn (ph) was arrested just this morning. He is expected in federal court today.

Our justice correspondent, Evan Perez, is live with more of these details.

How far did he get, and how did they trick him into coming home?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, this is quite an unusual situation. He made it to Turkey, to Istanbul where he was planning to join a friend to travel to -- to join ISIS in Syria. Apparently his family got involved and decided to trick him. They told him that there was a health problem with his mother which prompted him to return here to Houston, Texas. He'd been living in Australia the last couple of years. That's when he decided he wanted to join ISIS.

He sent this message, which is quoted in the federal complaint that was filed in court today. In it he tells the middle man who helps arrange for travel for recruits for ISIS, says, "I want to join ISIS. Can you help?" A simple message like that which was what kicked off the FBI's interest here. They've been investigating him for several months now. And apparently the FBI was aware that he was in communication with a friend of his. His friend, Brooke, actually did make it to joint ISIS in Syria. Asher Kahn (ph) did not make it all the way. Instead, got tricked by his family to come back in February. Now he's been arrested today.

BALDWIN: Evan Perez, thank you.

PEREZ: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up, we are celebrating here at CNN 35 years on the air. Next, we'll look back at our Gulf War coverage with CNN's own Wolf Blitzer. He covered the war live as it happened. Wolf will join me after this break.

Also, America's fourth largest city, Houston, under water. Two people have died. More rain could be on the way. We'll take you there.

You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:56:25] BALDWIN: Now to a vintage CNN moment from our founder, Ted Turner.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TED TURNER, FOUNDER, CNN: Our detractors said it wouldn't work. That there was no way we could do a lose network for the kind of budget that we had to start with. And then after we got started, they said that we'd go broke. We can see our way out of the loss column and to the break-even column.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: How far we've come from the break-even column to breaking news leader,

35 years after the network's beginning. More people get their news from CNN than any other global news source.

Tonight, we're remembering the hallmark moments including the first Gulf War. Here is just a piece from our special report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER ARNETT, FORMER CNN CORRESPONDENT: We've now been on the air 20 minutes.

Now the sirens are sounding for the first time. The Iraqis have informed us.

The line goes dead. They cut the line!

Everybody is stunned, and it's totally silent. And you can feel the tension in that room. And of course, our biggest fright was that the bomb had hit the hotel where they were.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, Baghdad --

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: With me now, the man behind one of the voices you'll hear, CNN's lead political anchor, Wolf Blitzer.

And you were touching on it on the piece. A lot of Americans, the gulf war was their first introduction to CNN.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah. And I think it's fair to say we were obviously the only 24/7 cable news network. We were the only one broadcasting live from Baghdad. You heard Peter Arnett and Bernie Shaw and John Hollaman (ph), our producers. They were there, risking their lives bring us the story live. People all over the world were glued to their TV as Operation Desert Shield turned into Operation Desert Storm. It did put CNN on the map as a legitimate international news organization.

BALDWIN: You have a lot of amazing stories. I could sit with you and just hear all of them. I would love for you to share with people watching the night that we know that Osama bin Laden was killed. I remember it was the White House Correspondent's weekend. I remember sitting in the room and seeing the president disappear from the table. We were wondering why that was. Then fast forward to the next day. So you were told to get to a studio ASAP, and you had no idea why, correct?

BLITZER: This was -- that was a Sunday night. It was late Sunday night. I was home watching a hockey game. All of a sudden I got a call from our bureau chief, Sam Fifes (ph), saying we don't know what's going on, but the president is going to be making a statement at 10:30 or 10:45 tonight. This was a Sunday night.

And as a former White House correspondent, my initial instinct was, where is he making the statement? Is it in the Oval Office? The briefing room? He said it's going to be in the East Room of the White House. Means you have to walk through the foyer. I said to myself, well, that's good news. If it were something really bad that happened, he would do an Oval Office address to the nation. That's much more somber. So I said, something good has happened. We didn't know what it was initially. Maybe Gadhafi, in Libya, because that was a big story at the time. But then it quickly dawned on me as I was putting on a shirt and tie and driving downtown, I said to myself, I think they got bin Laden. That was just an instinct.

BALDWIN: That was your gut. You thought that?

BLITZER: My gut that was he would not be making a statement to the nation at 10:30, 10:45 on Sunday night calling all the media in unless it was something really, really huge. So that was my instinct. Of course, it wasn't that much longer after that that the vice president and other aides were making calls to leaders on Capitol Hill saying they got bin Laden. And then, of course, by the time he walked out, it was after 11:00. I think it was actually close to 11:30.