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Fierce Fight for Iraq's Largest Oil Refinery; George Pataki Announces Presidential Run. Aired 9:30a-10:00a ET.

Aired May 28, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: One of the gunman was being tracked by the FBI but it ultimately lost track of him. Both suspects were killed by police. The battle for Iraq's Anbar province rages on. Right now, Iraqi forces are trying to reclaim the key city of Ramadi from ISIS.

Thereby, in another province, troops are locked in a fierce fight for Iraq's largest oil refinery. There are major fears that terrorists could scourge and burn the site if they clear around. Potentially trigger a massive environmental catastrophe. CNN Senior International Correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, just got that from the frontline with Iraqi special forces and got a firsthand look.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is just a taste of how apocalyptic it could get of the vital fight by the oil refinery already choking on smoke. Part of this huge complex is still held by ISIS Shia fighters filmed this Tuesday. The month's long fight here slowed by fierce of the ecological chaos. ISIS could wreck if they scourge and burn here as they retreat.

Iraqi special forces took us to their frontline defending the ruins of a house that a coalition airstrikes pushed ISIS out of. They - from the elite golden division that Ramadi colleagues part of the troops the U.S. said they lacked the will to fight.

That line of building over there is ISIS's closest position and yesterday, during a thick sand storm here they used the cover of it to advance within 20 meters here. When the sand storm subsided, suddenly a firefight began.

We don't know why they started shooting this day, what they may have seen. ISIS a few in number here, they say, but willing to die and have a snipping nearby, or maybe they more want to show us and even Washington they very much do want to fight.

It's not logical and wrong, he says, of the, American criticism, because anywhere in Ramadi, in most of them anywhere duty calls we fight.

Their gun fires grows and usually it's more mortarized that ISIS fired back. So we pull out.

More ammunition from America is arriving at their base, but the fight will be a slow in some of them were told. The reason we want to surround them, he says, because we must clean up the area properly with specialist engineers because it has fuel but also bobby traps.

Cleansing here of ISIS vital part of Baghdad's new plan for Ramadi but it's slow grind. Mindful that Iraq needs something to live off of if ISIS ever leaves.

COSTELLO: All right. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh joins us live from Baghdad. How important is bousea?

WALSH: Well, it's pretty close commercial because it's part of the campaign. I mean, it's so responsive. The energy and structure of Iraq, and I think it's more important Carol in terms of the damage it could do to that whole region where ISIS scourge their way that they had to retreat.

There are folks now more maybe 200 very (inaudible) exact numbers down in about 20 percent of oil refinery complexes span about five by three miles roughly in size. Potentially an enormous mess if you say detonated bobby traps. That thing you saw there were staying up late. But it's also important too because it's the low end of the supply route from Mosul down to Anbar that ISIS now hold Ramadi but they are trying to cut the first stage of this campaign.

So it's a slow fight, a messy fight. One that Iraqi say they are committed to. You saw them there, but they say they have the ammunition and they say they have the number, and they seem to be able to coordinate enough certainly in that area, and the question is how can they conduct that operation, in such an extraordinary complex and fragile place of the massive oil refinery. Carol

COSTELLO: All right. Nick Paton Walsh reporting live from Baghdad at this morning. With cities like Ramadi and potentially Baghdad in jeopardy. Some lawmakers including congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, a comeback veteran are calling for the coalition to ramp up air strikes. This next video from YouTube is an example of what's like when A-10 aircraft hits their target. Watch.

[09:35:00] A-10, also known wart hog is just one of the many weapons used to fight ISIS. Expert say even though it's a flee of the raptor and the horn it's a powerful punch against the enemy, but according to The Veteran Times, the coalition has averaged only 15 airstrikes a day in Iraq and Syria compare that to the Iraq war in 2003, airstrikes were around 800 per day.

My next guest is a U.S. Naval Grad and one of the Navy's first female fighter pilot Missy Cummings, as she is coming flew FA18 fighter jets and serve the first Iraq war. She's now a professor at Duke University and an expert on the use of drones. Missy, thank you for joining me.

MISSY CUMMINGS, FORMER FIGHTER PILOT: Thanks for having me.

COSTELLO: You know, if you watched that YouTube video, airstrikes seemed to be the way to go, it looks so easy, isn't it?

CUMMINGS: Well, I don't know if I would characterize airstrikes as easy. There's certainly a lot to go through into them and it's very difficult to conduct. But I would say that, I'm not a big fan of the A-10, and not that it's a great aircraft because it is, but it's an older aircraft and I don't think that this country can really justify the resources that it takes to keep these things flying. I personally and a convert over to drone warfare and I personally think that if we're going to conduct those drones, those strikes, they should be done using a man aerial vehicles.

COSTELLO: Why drones instead of aircraft? Manned aircraft, I should say.

CUMMINGS: Well, man, yes, I would say, manned aircraft it's very stressful first of all there's a human in the cockpit, there's a human at danger and the human is under a lot of stress, particularly because of the timing, the difficulties and perception, it's actually really hard even with all the computer enhancements today for humans to pick up the right targets.

Under that time stress, under the stress of combat as oppose to when the views, I mean, areas or area of vehicles are drones, there's a lot more people that are helping you go to the image, look at the image making sure that you are operating within the rules of combat and so I think in the end even though it may not be their way that they are used and conducting warfare, particularly in land arenas, I certainly think that it's safer or less, much less collateral damage.

COSTELLO: Well, it's talk about targets on the ground, the New York Times had an interesting article and reported that the United States has identified these seven buildings in Syria, Maraca that ISIS uses. But were low to take amount by air because civilians might be inside. Would drone warfare with that it's the same problem though, right?

CUMMINGS: Well, I think it's important to distinguish drone warfare from manned warfare instead of dropping bombs. The technology is actually very similar and these kinds of surgical strikes, we might use GPS guidance and or lacing systems to get more accuracy in both manned and unmanned vehicles can use those resources.

The question is, does the timing drones can set up a pattern overhead and wait for example they could - pretty much easier for them to wait to bomb the building until everyone was out at night for example. When they were more sure of the number of people on the ground as oppose to manned aircraft which happen under very time constraints situations.

But in either case, I think the question is, if we're trying to prevent collateral damage, it doesn't really matter whether we're going to use a manned or manned vehicles, the problem still remains.

COSTELLO: The problem still remains. Senator McCain says, should the Americans fighters on the ground to make it easier for fighter pilots to get their targets. Why is the Obama administration failed to approve that?

CUMMINGS: Well, I can't speak for the administration, but I suspect anyone is low to put any humans on the ground because they could be taken capture and certainly, we do not want to see any more people being beheaded on YouTube. So I mean, that would be my personal impression but you have then.

COSTELLO: Yes. But do we need more spotters on the ground? Would that make air strikes more effective?

CUMMINGS: Well, we do - depending on the conflict. We have something called board air controllers which effectively acts as spotters, helping call an airstrikes. And the military typically will set those people for contested areas, those buildings that you're talking about its not clear that, that would be you know, we couldn't just have this people out in the open.

And they would be in significant danger. And so, maybe we have special forces which are also a form of spotting and so it is possible that we can send in special forces people.

COSTELLO: Missy Cummings, thanks for your insight, I appreciate it. Still to come in the Newsroom, Rick Santorum and George Pataki, Republican voters now have a walk of eight candidates to choose from. But a new polls shows, there is no clear front runner.

[09:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously you are not the front runner like Mitt Romney was four years ago. Why do you think it's different? Why do you think Rick Santorum being the runner-up four years ago doesn't make you the front runner this time?

RICK SANTORUM, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, if you look at what I had to do when I left the race, I have seven kids, I had to go to work and I had to provide food for my family and I was not in front of your TV very often over the last three years.

COSTELLO: Rick Santorum and now, George Pataki, becoming the latest addition to the Republican 2016 campaign. And new poll have found and shows the race is wide open. The survey from Quinnipiac University indicating a five-way tie between Jeb Bush, Ben Carson and Mike Huckabee, Marco Rubio and Scott Walker.

But another 20 percent of the voter say they are undecided so let's talk about that and more, CNN's Jeff Zeleny and Sarah Murray are here our political big wigs here for CNN. Thanks to both of you for being here with me this morning. I appreciate it.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Carol.

SARAH MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Thanks for having us.

COSTELLO: You guys don't seem excited. I'm kind of bummed.

ZELENY: Very excited.

MURRAY: We're thrilled.

COSTELLO: Good. I'm glad to hear that. OK. So Sarah, we look at this Quinnipiac poll it's interesting but in the end how meaningful is it?

MURRAY: So I would say not very meaningful. Like you said, there are 20 percent of voters who are still undecided and I would say a lot of these people who are saying you know, Ben Carson is my number one pick and Mike Huckabee, really these people are really been all the way decided. We're very, very, very far away from the time anyone will cast their first ballot.

And these things are going to change. When people sort of got their first look at Ben Carson when he made their special announcement, they were reminded once again that Mike Huckabee, is actually going to be running his time and so I think looking at those two candidates get a little bit of a boost from that. But I think that undecided number is probably even larger than 20 percent.

[09:45:00] COSTELLO: OK. So Jeff, maybe the poll is important when it comes to the first debate right? Because the first debate comes August 6, Fox will take the top 10 put them on stage, so we get, you know, if the poll holds till August 6, we got Marco Rubio and Ben Carson and Jeb Bush and Mike Huckabee. As a political reporter, that kind of debate could be interesting, right?

ZELENY: It sure could be interesting especially when they are all locked in an even race here and everyone is trying to define themselves against the other, and we see already this week, Rand Paul in particular all of these candidates are taking him. But look this polls a snapshot in time of name recognition. It's the worst news for Jeb Bush because he has the biggest name recognition, and every one of these are not equal.

Jeb Bush is raising money, and Marco Rubio has a good name and story in place, so these candidates are not as always are equal to keep in mind. And Carol, we always have a candidate of the summer of the year before, so there will be a candidate of the summer of 2015, Michele Bachmann comes to mine from four years ago, and that will not necessarily mean what we are talking about next winter.

COSTELLO: Exactly. And then you know, the candidate of the summer could be John Kasich, the governor of Ohio who had a testy sit down, with Jake Tapper. Kasich said, he hate Obama care, yet he used the healthcare law to expand Medicaid. Let's listen.

GOV. JOHN KASICH, OHIO: I don't support Obama care and I want to repeal it but I did expand Medicaid because I was able to bring Ohio back home to treat the mentally ill and the drug addicted and help the working poor get health care and because you oppose Obama care doesn't mean when you have an opportunity to bring the $14 billion of Ohio money back to Ohio, that's not Obama care, that's Medicaid.

COSTELLO: But Sarah, I think the words expand Medicaid will cause Republican voters, at least some of them to say, I am not so sure about you?

MURRAY: Yes. And I had been on the trail with John Kasich and he gets asked about this because Republican voters are skeptical about expanding any government program. Even if it is Medicaid a program that of course does predate the President's healthcare law.

With that said, I think John Kasich is not alone in being the Republican governors who accepted this money and there plenty of other Republican who did that because there was an influx of federal funds and I think he will have to better explain why he did it and I don't think it's the last time he will get this question. If you are a Republican voter skeptical of the president's health care law and you see a guy running for president that took that money, it's going to be a problem.

COSTELLO: And with that said, Jeff, and the reason John Kasich did that is a good reason, because he said it came from a good place because he cared about the disadvantaged, right?

ZELENY: It's true. And it speaks to the kind of governor he has been in Ohio. He's been a fiscal conservative. I think it's a decent argument for him. Yes, there are some that will never support him but they would not support him anyway, necessarily, the people on the far right. His record as governor will be tested here if he decides to run. It has been a pretty good one. Unemployment has fallen and the budget is good, and why not take the Medicaid money.

COSTELLO: Jeff Zeleney, Sarah Murray, thank you so much. I appreciate it. I'll be right back.

ZELENEY: Thanks, Carol.

[09:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's known as the Bird of Jannah. A woman living in Syria painting an idealist picture. One of ISIS most dangerous recruiters. Her lies could get people killed. More for you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After a few seconds, we could hear more and more bombs. The house shaken. My friend asked me to open all the doors and windows. Bang.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She calls her receives shots and blogs under the pet name, Bird of Jannah, Bird of paradise. Breathless proceeds and poetry, with Technicolor images of life is real under ISIS.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After a few minutes I flip my niqab. He looked at me our eyes meet each other's. I have palpitation fastest in the speed of light.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (inaudible) idealistic young woman travels in Syria, she finds faith, sisterhood, Man of her dreams Abu Barra a Moroccan, a fighter, and now a son.

Her blog entries often end with novel-like cliff hangers when she texts her husband on the battlefield.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Promise me you will wait until our baby's birth. Promise me that you will stay alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Melanie Smith maintains the world's largest database on the women of ISIS. She says Bird of Jannah is unique.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She actually posts personal things, pictures of her child.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Around the time she got married, pictures of her husband, pictures of the inside of her clinic on the Tumblr page. So it is very much a view we wouldn't otherwise have, it's a very real-time up to date version of looking into what life is like inside the home of Jannah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who is Bird of Jannah, her identity unknown. She says she's a practicing doctor. She posts pictures of the hospital and claims to operate an ISIS clinic from her home. She says her parents are from Pakistan and India but once called UK and Malaysia home. She makes a compelling and dangerous recruiter for ISIS actively encouraging young women to contact her, inviting them to join her in the Douala or state created by ISIS.

In her eyes ISIS built a utopia, no racism, poverty, a list of benefits for fighters and families, health care and education. Read between the lines. Getting married is not required, she says, yet a woman cannot walk around freely without her husband or male "guardian," she admits. The institute of strategic dialogue says it's critical for young people to know the reality.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's very alluring. The idea when you go there you fat free housing and medical and cook lovely meals for your husband. That's the propaganda. Obviously the reality is very different. Electricity is scarce. Hot water is scarce. You are waking up in the middle of the night hearing planes overhead, reaching for a suicide belt, not knowing if you're going to be infiltrated and killed. You are in a war zone. Actually the realities of the day-to- day life really disprove this utopian idea.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I came here alone and broken. You've raised my status as a woman.

[09:55:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chances, flowery words mask the brutal reality of being a wife and mother in a war zone. The Bird of Jannah it seems is in a paradise of her own mind. CNN, London.

COSTELLO: Next in the Newsroom theater shooter James Holmes notebook shown to jurors as prosecutors try to strike down his insanity defense. Does it prove he knew exactly what he was doing?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Spa sounds relaxing right. But Somebody's Got To Do It Mike Rowe realized this the Russian way to kick back is just a little different.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I spent most of my birthday in my birthday suit enjoying the wonders of Chicago sweat lodge. My current treatment as a brutal pounding at the hands of an Ex-Soviet weightlifter. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll give you whatever you want.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My stuff is moving around all over the place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've been to lots of spas. I like a good massage as much as the next guy. This is different. Forget aromatherapy candles, forget the new age music playing softly in the background. Forget Charmaine or Tiffany with her soft hands and gentle touch.