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Dr. Drew
Duggars Have Family Secrets That May Include Sex Abuse; Kim Richards Apparently Drunk At Her Daughter`s Wedding; A Sex Abuse Survivor Who Spoke To The Duggars; Kim Richards` Role On "Real Housewives Of Beverly Hills" Preventing Her From Getting Proper Treatment And Getting Sober; A 49-Year- Old Grandmother In A Bikini Was Pulled Over For DUI; A Safety Demonstration Of Volvo That Is Going To Protect Pedestrians Goes Wrong; Increasing Rate Of Syphilis, HIV And Gonorrhea In Rhode Island Is Blamed On Hookup Apps That Are Putting On The People Who Are Doing Casual Hookups
Aired May 28, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(21:00:12) DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, we know the Duggars have family secrets that may include sex abuse. What we do not know about
the "19 Kids and Counting" star, we will discuss. And, Kim Richards apparently drunk at her daughter`s wedding. You will hear from her sister,
Kyle.
And, it all starts right now with the top of the feed. Josh Duggar is accused of, quote, "Forcibly fondling" -- if that is not gross enough -
"Forcibly fondling five little girls when he was a teenager." Parents apparently knew. They sent him to some sort of Christian treatment center.
Have a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: This is the story of my family. We are the Duggars. Josh is our oldest. He married Anna.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Claims that Josh Duggar molested five children including some of his sisters when he was a teen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Josh Duggar confessed to his father Jim Bob Duggar who has apparently waited more than a year before contacting
authorities. Instead the Duggars say, they told elders at their church and received counseling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Are you kidding me?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Josh`s father told police he was made aware of it in 2002 when a girl complained Josh, then 14, had
been touching her breasts and genitals while she slept.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: "In Touch" magazine obtaining a 2006 Springdale, Arkansas police report that called it "Forcible Fondling."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN FERGUSON, CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You have a family that cared more about protecting the brand of this family and being a total
fraud than they did about the welfare of children that were abused.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, Sam Schacher, "Pop Trigger" on Hulu.com; Mike Catherwood, my co-host on "Love Line" and KABAC Radio; also Judy Ho,
Clinical Psychologist, professor at Pepperdine University.
Sam, there is a lot to talk about here. But, one thing that bothers me is that father, who we saw on the tape is on "The Record" saying incest
should be a capital offense.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER": Yes. He even went on to say that if you commit incest that you should be executed.
PINSKY: Executed.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: And saying rape and incest should be dealt with execution.
SCHACHER: Right. And, here is the thing, when you look at the parents, because I do not want to blame the children here or blame even
Josh. We know he is a grown adult. I blame these parents. I blame Michelle. I blame Jim Bob.
And, I wonder if they can be held accountable. If charges can be brought up against them for neglecting their children, for hiding the fact
that their son was molesting these other victims, allegedly, and it could be their children as well.
PINSKY: You bring up the legal questions right away. I want to go out to Lisa Bloom in my audience now. Lisa, what about what Sam is
suggesting here? Is there a possibility of there being a legal liability or anything taken against the parents?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Well, criminally, no. I think the statute of limitations is over there. But, a civil case is always possible for a
private cause of action, of course you need a plaintiff, you need somebody it to sue. One of these little girls, ideally one who is under 21 still --
PINSKY: But, Sam --
BLOOM: -- saying I want to sue my parents.
PINSKY: But, Lisa, it could happen. And I think about what these parents did to the kids. There were as many as five kids, siblings,
children, who had to live with the perpetrator.
The perpetrator is told he is now fixed because God is with him. Imagine how the victims feel. If they feel guilty, angry, if they feel
affected in some way. They are told not to feel that way because God is with this perpetrator.
BLOOM: You know what? I represent people like that in my law practice every day. Victims of rape and child sexual abuse, and there are
expanded statutes of limitations in places like California.
So, if you can bring a case many years later because the law recognizes exactly what you are saying, Dr. Drew, that it can take decades
for a victim to really understand the damage caused by molestation.
PINSKY: And, Sam, the TLC is thinking about a spinoff? Did I hear it, correctly?
SCHACHER: Well, according to "People" magazine they are considering a spinoff. And, this would focus on their two daughters Jill and Jessa who
recently got married.
PINSKY: You know, it is too much. Bill Gothard is a guy who was the head of the ATI, which is the Christian Treatment Center, Judy, he was sent
to. And, I got to tell you something about him. He was forced to resign last year because 34 women accused him of sexual harassment.
SCHACHER: Ah!
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Oh!
SCHACHER: Surprise-surprise.
PINSKY: Good times.
HO: Dr. Drew, this is the thing, right? Every person that this family has sent Josh to for any kind of support or treatment or talking to
has actually been somebody who is a defender of them self in some way.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: The child pornography with the state trooper.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: And, now the alleged sexual harassment by this person who is a head of a treatment center for sexual issues., but we see this all the
time, though, Dr. Drew. Right? There is some kind of contamination there where people put themselves in these situations where they actually can
possibly continue their activity while they are trying to work on it.
PINSKY: There is that and there is also the fact that people when they have been traumatized they get attracted to people. It is a weird
thing humans do. They get attracted in environments of people that end up re-traumatizing them.
MIKE CATHERWOOD, CO-HOST OF "LOVE LINE": And, also when you are living in an environment, where you are repressed in some way, you act out
in these wacky fashions. And when you limit some world where sex is demonized --
(21:05:01) PINSKY: I got to show you -- I got tape. I got tape. Do you have that tape available, control room? It is going to take a second
to get it up, but we have tape of how they trained their kids. I mean I also hear there was some physical abuse going on where the kids are being
hit with rods.
SCHACHER: Wow!
CATHERWOOD: You have to wonder, this is the most egregious example of them being kind of irresponsible parents. But, the idea of just having 19
kids in general and then also to think to make money off putting them on television. From the start, you got to question their motives as parents.
I mean it is --
PINSKY: I want to show you this tape. You got to take a look at this first.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED CAMERA MAN: Grandma, what is Joy doing right now? Why is her hand on the T.V.?
MARY DUGGAR, JOSH DUGGAR`S GRANDMOTHER: She is covering up the immodest dress. She has been trained to do that for the boys.
JOY DUGGAR, JOSH DUGGAR`S SISTER: Because they have low cuts.
UNIDENTIFIED CAMERA MAN: What do you do when there is a woman in public who is immodestly dressed?
JANA DUGGAR, JOSH DUGGAR`S SISTER: If we are walking past a girl that is immodestly dressed, we will call out "Nike!" and all the boys will
immediately put their heads down and just walk past quickly, like that. And then we will say, "All done," you know? It is our code word.
UNIDENTIFIED CAMERA MAN: And, why cannot the boys see that?
JOY: Um -- (long pause) because it is bad?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHACHER: Wow.
PINSKY: These are children, everybody. And it is very -- It is can cultish. Did you see the way that Joy --
SCHACHER: It is beyond cultish. Not only do they shame their children, do they body shame them, do they shame their sexuality, they
condemn everyone else, they wave their finger at everyone else and then their crutch is religion. I think that they are making religious people
look bad. These are not religious people.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: These are fundamentalists. These are extremists and I really do hope that charges get brought against them.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: All right. Next up, I have a sex abuse survivor who spoke to the Duggars. Actually, she spoke to them about the situation. She joins
us after this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(21:11:02) JOSH DUGGAR, ALLEGED CHILD MOLESTER INCLUDING HER SISTERS IN HIS TEENS: At some point, everything is going to fall around you, all
the things that you are trusting are going to come down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): 12 years ago as a young teenager, I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply
regret. I hurt others including my family and close friends.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH DUGGAR: when I was 15 years old, as some people says, I sort of rededicated my life. I really would say that is when I really manned up.
I realized, you know what, I got to own this. And, I got to make sure it is mine. And, I never looked back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We are talking about the Duggar family scandal and the alleged child sex abuse. I am back with Sam, Mike, And Judy. Now, That
tape drives me crazy, because he says, "Well, I manned up and realized I was doing something wrong. And, we are all done now. Let us get on with
this."
HO: That is right.
PINSKY: Are you kidding me? That is the most insane way to approach something like this I ever heard of. It is like, literally, "Well, I
killed somebody. I realized that was the wrong thing to do and we are getting on with it now. What are we going to do?
HO: Right. Where are the reparative actions? Where are the things that he has actually done to demonstrate not only the fact that he is
sorry, but that he is changing.
PINSKY: How about the victims? How about the victims who need the evaluation?
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: They have done nothing for those. Now, speaking of victims. Joining us is Erin Merryn. She was sexually abused, herself, when she was
just 6. She is now responsible for something called Erin`s law, which requires public schools to have and provide sexual abuse prevention
program.
And, Erin, first of all, thank you for that and thank you for your work. As you know as I am aware this is a huge problem of our time. It is
a massively unfortunately common problems.
And, a year ago you were invited to the Duggars home and spoke to the children about sexual abuse. Why do you think -- Did they tell you why
they brought you in and I am wondering how the children reacted?
ERIN MERRYN, SEXUAL ABUSE SURVIVOR WHO SPOKE TO DUGGARS ABOUT SEX ABUSE: Well, I had just got done speaking at a child abuse conference in
Arkansas that they happen to be attending. And, after the event they came up to me and said, "Erin, I know it is late but is there any way you can
come into our home and talk to our children about Erin`s Law." A law that I have gotten now passed in 23 states that requires public schools to teach
kids on sexual abuse.
PINSKY: Did not you think that was sort of a strange way to ask you to come and talk to our kids about sexual abuse? I mean, talk about Erin`s
Law to 6-year-olds -- No, no or how do I teach my children or identify trouble that my children may have been exposed to. Were they interested in
that?
MERRYN: No. I think what I found so interesting was the fact that while my law goes into public schools and here is a home schooling family
wanting to bring my message in.
PINSKY: I see.
MERRYN: And, that is the one place that I cannot get my message to.
PINSKY: I see.
MERRYN: So, I thought this was a perfect opportunity to go into their home and maybe them help me get this message into the home schooling
community.
PINSKY: Were they receptive? How was it? Tell us what happened.
MERRYN: Yes. So, I went into their home that night and I have to admit when I walked into the home nine of their kids were home, you know --
you know how editing goes on any show. I thought, you know, the house would be messy, possibly, because TLC was not there taping.
The house was clean. I sat down on their couch on their couch to sit down with nine of their kids. And, the most well-behaved, respected kids I
have ever met. Like they were very receptive to my message, asking questions. And I sat there and just shared to them what Erin`s law does --
PINSKY: Did any of them at that point come forward and say, "I am keeping a secret" or any of them say anything that tipped you off in any
way?
MERRYN: No, nothing at all. And, this was most of the younger children. On several of the older girls were away at a camp at the time.
PINSKY: Interesting.
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Convenient.
CATHERWOOD: Jesus camp.
PINSKY: All right, Erin. Thank you so much. Thank you for doing that. Thank you for your work. I mean you are really doing -- you are
doing God`s work.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: HATS off to you.
SCHACHER: Yes.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: I want to go out to our audience to ask their questions. Go ahead, yes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: I just had heard that TLC was not going to cancel the show or they were not really sure. And, in my mind, I do not
know how they could question canceling it.
(21:14:57) PINSKY: I do not know how you guys feel about that, but there is two issues. One is the sponsors are all running away. So, I do
not understand how they cannot cancel, number one. Number two, if they were to pull the curtain back and show the treatment of this family, I
would say, well maybe we keep this conversation.
SCHACHER: But, they are not going to because they hide everything. They are not going to.
PINSKY: And how are you going to get them to do that? And, by the way, it might not be in their best interest. It might not.
HO: That is right. And, part of the problem, Dr. Drew is with victims of sexual abuse, there is what we call sexual abuse accommodation
syndrome, especially when the sexual abuse is perpetrated by a loved one in this case. It might be their own brother.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: It takes them a long time to even come out and talk about it. But, then when they do, they recant it, they reshape it.
PINSKY: Yes. They make it fit in their way, so they can still love their brother and have a relationship. So, how can we really treat this
behavior --
SCHACHER: But, Dr. Drew, you and Judy always say, it is the gift that keeps on giving. So, how do we know that Josh was not just mimicking
something that was done to him?
PINSKY: Oh, it could have happened.
HO: Uh-oh.
CATHERWOOD: His father is name is Jim Bob. Something is up. My point -- and Sam was talking about it in the last break. I really feel
bad. I am not going to try to pretend I am a religious guy, but I do feel bad for good, respectable moral Christians because they oftentimes get
swept in with this kind of stuff.
PINSKY: You have a saint on your forearm, right? You have a saint on your forearm.
CATHERWOOD: And, you know what? But every single -- it is obligatory Mexican stuff. Every time some maniac lobs off a dude`s head in Syria, all
of us Americans, we go, "Where are these good Muslims that come out and rally against this stuff?"
And, when this stuff goes on, all you see is Mike Huckabee and Pat Robertson, and these other nudniks talk about how they deserve support in
this time of need. Where are all these intelligent, normal moral, ethical Christians to come out and speak out against this to say, "This does not
represent us or our feelings?"
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: It is not ok to use God or religion as a crowd for pathology and harm of kids. Yes, ma`am? Your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Hi. I just wanted to know if any of the kids that were victimized, if they were in counseling right now.
PINSKY: We do not know. This one to me this is the saddest chapter - - listen, I believe that Josh Duggar deserves an evaluation. He is every bit evaluated as far as we know. He may be the victim of abuse. The
people he has affected -- and by the way, we only know about five. There may have been more after that. They deserve an evaluation.
CATHERWOOD: Drew, he talked to a cop who has child porn on his computer and then he talked to a guy at a Jesus camp, who rampantly
sexually assaults a lot of women.
PINSKY: I want to go quickly back out to Lisa Bloom from the bloom firm and Avvo.com. Right, did I get it all that Lisa?
BLOOM`: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: And, you know what we do know from reading the police report is that the five little girl victims were told to say that they forgave
him.
PINSKY: They were told?
BLOOM: I think it is shameful to make a child victim say to the molester, "I forgive you," while she is a still a child. Forgiveness is
such a complicated thing for survivors. Maybe when they are adults, they are going to come to that on their own. Maybe they are not.
It is a very personal decision. But, it sounds to me like these little girls were made to say right from the beginning, "You know what? It
is over. It is all is forgiven. It can all be just swept under the rug."
SCHACHER: Well, it is like the teaching stuff. There is the teachings in their home school --
PINSKY: Are bizarre.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: They are bizarre and they tend to blame the victim, which is crazy.
HO: That is right.
PINSKY: I was going to read you a quote that is unbelievable from the teachings of that institution, but I do not have it. I do not have the
time for it. So, let us just close the story for the moment and I think this has been a great discussion. There is no doubt.
This is reprehensible, these kids, most of the victims are the ones that our hearts go out to, they need treatment. They need evaluation.
They need support and they need to be outside of this enclave they are in so they can be treated effectively.
Next up, Kim Richards, her role on "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills," is it preventing her from getting proper treatment and getting sober?
Taylor Armstrong is here to discuss with us. We will be right back.
(21:18:35) (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(21:22:36) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Kim Richards exposed her battle with addiction on Bravo`s "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIM RICHARDS, BRAVO`S "REAL HOUSEWIVES OF BEVERLY HILLS" STAR: I am just ornery.
LISA RINNA, KIM RICHARDS` CAST MATE ON "REAL HOUSEWIVES OF BEVERLY HILLS" REALITY SHOW: Really? Are you drinking?
RICHARDS: Drinking?
(LAUGHING)
RINNA: Just taking drugs?
RICHARDS: Not today.
RINNA: All right. Good. You are still sober?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: After her arrest last month for public intoxication and battery of a police officer, she checked herself into
rehab.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RINNA: I feel bad about that, you know.
RICHARDS: Do not, Lisa.
RINNA: All right.
RICHARDS: Do not.
RINNA: OK.
RICHARDS: Do not feel sorry for me.
RINNA: OK. OK.
RICHARDS: You do not know what I go through at night.
RINNA: You know, that is true, I do not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Just a few weeks into treatment, Kim got a pass to leave the facility to attend her daughter`s wedding. But, a
source tells TMZ by the end of the reception, Kim was clearly impaired.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: And, we still do the not know whether Kim Richards has returned to treatment. I suspect so. We will be hearing more. And, we of
course are talking about celebrity behavior. Here is what Kim`s sister, Kyle, told TMZ.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: How is Kim doing?
KYLE RICHARDS, KIM RICHARDS` SISTER: Good, thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: She is doing good?
KYLE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Is she back in the good graces of the family?
KYLE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That is good. So, you and your sister have a lot of fans, you know. And, a lot of people are pulling for Kim.
KYLE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Is she going back to rehab?
KYLE: She is supposed to be.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Is she supposed to be?
KYLE: That is the plan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Is she still in Mexico or is she back in the U.S.?
KYLE: You know, I do not know. I have not spoken to her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Oh, you still have not spoken to her.
KYLE: I have not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: But you are not upset with her?
KYLE: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Mike, Judy. And, Mike, this story has exposed so much about people`s misconceptions about addiction. Even that guy
questioning, "You are not mad at your sister for being a drug addict?"
SCHACHER: Right.
CATHERWOOD: Right.
PINSKY: No, she is struggling. I am scared for her. I am afraid she is going to die.
CATHERWOOD: Right. I mean I also think that not enough people understand that it is nobody else`s responsibility besides Ms. Richards
herself to make sure that she kind of maintain this.
PINSKY: People get confused by it.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: They get confused because she went down with a sober coach.
CATHEWOOD: Right.
PINSKY: Whose job was to keep her sober and people go, "I cannot even keep her sober." Listen, he does not -- whoever this coach was, he or she
cannot hog-tie her.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: He cannot bomb rush her. You know, cannot -- She is a free person. They are just there to support them and help them. And, if they
lose the ability to contain their behaviors, that is on the patient at that point.
(21:25:00) SCHACHER: And, this was not just an afternoon either. It is not like she got a --
PINSKY: Three days.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Three days in Cabo.
SCHACHER: Cabo, where there are events and parties.
PINSKY: So, yes. People go, "How can you possibly let somebody in treatment leave?" There is no such thing as a locked treatment program in
the United States.
CATHERWOOD: Right.
PINSKY: You can just leave. Now, you can refuse to bring them back or you can tell them that they are going to have trouble -- legal troubles
as a result, because she obviously has a legal case against her that she is trying to look good for in the eyes of the court, which happens a lot. It
is good leverage to keep people in treatment.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: But, there she had her daughter`s wedding and she had a legitimate reason. She went with a soberer coach and yet still Mike, it
falls on the patient.
CATHERWOOD: Right. Well, there is nothing you can do as far as the externals that is going to prevent you from still suffering from the
disease. You can only do your best personally to try to prevent the disease from getting the best of you.
HO: Right.
CATHERWOOD: And if -- if -- If Kim is not ready to do that, I mean it does not really matter what the consequences are.
PINSKY: Share with people how far down you had you went. I mean think of the things that happened to you.
CATHERWOOD: Yes. I mean I certainly spent plenty of nights in jail and I disappointed my entire family --
PINSKY: Jail, seizure, arrest.
CATHERWOOD: Towards the end, I was rushed to the hospital overdosing all the time. I mean so rapidly --
PINSKY: Mike -- "Mike, why did not you just stop, son? Why did not you just stop doing drugs? Do not you understand what you are doing to
your family, nearly dying like that?" I mean that is what is so crazy about people talking to addicts that way.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: They cannot take --
CATHERWOOD: I do think that there is this pervasive idea that it is a lack of willpower or something that, you know?
HO: Right.
CATHERWOOD: And, I guess --
SCHACHER: What is the tipping point then?
CATHERWOOD: Well, ironically, it had nothing to do with anything major. It was one of those days, I just happened to be drinking by myself
and taking drugs and I thought that I could probably live a better life. If I had a chance at putting together a nice life, it probably would not be
in a motel in Englewood drinking Bud Light by myself.
PINSKY: But, listen.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: But, that is what they call the moment of clarity.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: And, that is why they seem so spiritual, because sometimes they come from nowhere. On the phone, I have Taylor Armstrong. She is one
of Kim Richards` former cast mates on the "Real Housewives."
Thank you for joining us. I really appreciate you joining us again. A couple quick questions. Is it right that people on the show or whatever
it was about the culture of the show they do not like talking about addiction?
TAYLOR ARMSTRONG, FORMER CAST MATE OF KIM RICHARDS ON "REAL HOUSEWIVES": Yes. Well, I think addiction and abuse and things like that
are just taboo subjects in general. And trying to point the finger when you are not a doctor and saying you are an addict or you are an alcoholic
versus you are a party girl, you know?
I think that trying to determine those things is not our place in the first place. But, the stress of doing the show is so high that I think
someone who is in addiction, it is just going to play out that way.
PINSKY: Having said that, Taylor, do you think Kim should recuse herself from the show? I mean she needs it financially. She is in trouble
financially. She is an adult even though she is an addict. She can give consent to beyond something like this. What should she do?
ARMSTRONG: You know, it is really a challenge to say, because for me, you know, back when I stayed on the show and had abuse in my life, people
say to me, "Why would you ever do a reality show when you knew that there was abuse in your life?"
Two reasons. One, I thought the cameras would maybe kind of be a watchdog for what was going on behind the scenes, because people do not
typically act up in public. And, maybe for Kim, she feels like it kind of a watchdog for her, too, and might help her keep on track.
PINSKY: See. I think Taylor -- thank you very much. That is a really interesting thing. That is what I found with working with addicts
on television. They end up wanting to do well in the eyes of the public.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: And, then they valued their treatment and then they want to be an example for other people.
HO: Right. Well, it could go that way.
PINSKY: It could go that way.
HO: But she is in the throes of her addiction seemingly.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: She is not had any control. She does not learn enough coping skills. She does not survive --
PINSKY: So at least, she needs time out now for sure.
HO: She needs a time out.
CATHERWOOD: But, I get very upset when people -- they misunderstand that you cannot really blame an addict for his or her addiction.
HO: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: But, you certainly can blame them for their recovery or lock them up. And, it is not Bravo`s fault. It is not any of the other
housewives. This is her personal problem. They can be there to support her but by no means putting her on T.V. making it harder on her. It is
going to be an internal decision regardless.
PINSKY: I also want to go back to Lisa Bloom. Of course, Lisa is a trial lawyer at the Bloom Firm. She is also a legal analyst for Avvo. Is
this the fact that she is slipping and sliding on television or at least publicly or people are aware of it. She got these cases of assaulting a
police officer. Is this going to be a problem for her?
BLOOM: It is absolutely going to be a problem for her. I mean I cannot believe she has made it this far. That is a very serious charge.
And, by the way, being under the influence of alcohol or drugs is not a defense. And, I have to disagree about the show being good for her.
I think these shows pick people who are volatile, who have trouble and then they give them a life that is even more stressful in the public eye.
She has talked about going on Twitter and seeing all the negative things about her, which is what happens to anybody who is in camera. But, she was
not equipped to handle that.
PINSKY: Right.
BLOOM: I think t is a very bad choice for somebody like her to be on reality T.V.
PINSKY: All right. We are going to keep this conversation going and we will be right back after this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(21:30:00) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(21:34:03) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Kim Richards has put her battle with addiction on display. On Bravo`s "Real Housewives of Beverly
Hills. ".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIM RICHARDS: Whoooo! I told you. Whoooooo!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: But when she was arrested last month, she decided to get treatment once again for substance abuse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIM RICHARDS: I said that night I had taken something for pain and it obviously did not work for me and -- Let me finish. And, I said to that it
did not react to me. The next day I ended up in the hospital for a week. If any of my friends right here had seen that more than once in three
years, my friends, my sister would have come to me and they would have been concerned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Just a few weeks into treatment she left the facility with a sober coach to attend her daughter`s wedding in
Cabo, San Lucas. But, by the end of the reception, a source tells TMZ, Kim was so impaired that her sober coach left without her.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(21:35:00) PINSKY: We are talking about Kim Richards and her struggles with addiction. We have only this video of Kim at her daughter`s
wedding. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIM RICHARDS: For me as a mother, I just want to tell you there is nothing that feels better in my heart when I am not with my daughter that
she is with you. I just want to tell you thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Mike, and Judy. And, Judy, I say specifically addiction issues because we are being told she was admitted to a drug
treatment program and by law the place will lose its license if it admits somebody for another condition. You have to meet criteria for criteria for
addiction to be admitted to a drug treatment program.
HO: That is right.
PINSKY: So, that defines addiction. She has addiction, period. And what else she has, we do not know. I do not see much in that video that is
for sure.
HO: No. That is a very brief video. She was having a touching moment. But, obviously, we know that she has a history of impulsive
behavior, chaotic interpersonal relationships. There is probably something else aside from addiction that we are dealing with and she is using the
addiction to possibly modulate her emotions.
PINSKY: OK. You are suggesting borderline personality. That is what you are describing. But I will tell you what, even people with borderline
qualities and stuff get vastly better when their addiction is --
HO: Right. Exactly.
CATHERWOOD: Right. I mean whatever your underlying condition maybe, whether it be depression, anxiety, borderline personality, as a mental
health professional you cannot deal with it if there is addiction on top of it.
HO: Exactly.
PINSKY: Not only that, Sam. Not only that, but literally, it is the one time you see people with what we call character or logical problems --
HO: Right.
PINSKY: -- really get better when they get sober.
SCHACHER: And, I do not -- I disagree with you and I agree with Lisa. I do not think this show is good for Kim. I followed the "Beverly Hills
Housewives" --
PINSKY: I did not say it was good.
SCHACHER: Well, not good. I think that for her --
PINSKY: I said it is an interesting point of view to say maybe it would hold her accountable.
SCHACHER: But it has not held her accountable, because throughout the season, she has continued to slip. I would love to see Bravo use some
leverage and say, "Listen, we would love you to be on the show. Clearly, you want to be on the show" --
PINSKY: Come back in a year.
SCHACHER: -- "Come back in a year once you are clean."
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. I agree. I agree.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
CATHERWOOD: Yes. And, I think that is a good point, Sam. But, I do not want my point or Dr. Drew`s point to be misconstrued.
SCHACHER: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: No one is claiming that being on a reality show --
PINSKY: Is good. Yes.
CATHERWOOD: -- is the most efficient or effective way to deal with an addition problem. I am simply saying that if someone is committed to
dealing with the disease of addiction it does not matter what line of work you are in, it does not matter what environment you are in, you will figure
out a way.
We know plenty of touring musicians, stand-up comedians. It does not matter. If you really want to make that change, if you want to deal with
your recovery, you can do it.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(CROSSTALKES)
PINSKY: It is all over the place. We have an audience question. Yes, ma`am? Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: As a viewer of "The Beverly Hills Housewives" I find it inexcusable that Bravo T.V. continues to put her in
the spotlight when she clearly has an illness.
PINSKY: Have you been worried about this for a while?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUIENCE: Actually, yes.
SCHACHER: Oh, yes!
BLOOM: If these shows want drama, they do not want her to be held accountable, they do not want her to, you know, just kind of calm down and
find her center.
(CROSSTALKS)
PINSKY: Excuse me. I have to talk to my other panel here. I have to say something. What do humans watch whether it is on television or on a
stage or in theater? Hey watch sick people behaving sick. That is what humans watch, right? That is what we watch.
BLOOM: But, this is a real sick person.
PINSKY: Correct. And, I am just saying. So, if we are going to have reality shows, it is going to be people that have predelections. The
question is what do we do to help them if things unravel. See, I agree with you. I think this show is --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: But, this is clearly not working. This is someone in serious distress.
PINSKY: Correct. And it is not getting better.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: That needs medical attention.
PINSKY: I completely agree.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: And needs to be completely taken out of the spotlight.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
HO: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: I agree. I think if I would put to make a decision, I would agree with you and I would use it as leverage to say, "Hey, you stay in
treatment for a year. You will do great. Your treatment professionals sign off, I will bring you back."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Bravo T.V. has caused some of the damage and the stress that has brought her to this point.
PINSKY: They should pay for it. I agree. I agree. And, Let me tell you something. VH1 would pay for a year of treatment in a rehab group.
They should take a bow on that. They paid hundreds of thousands of dollars of treatment that just no one knows about. And, they did what the right
thing. I told them what these people need. They took care of it.
CATHERWOOD: I sympathize with what you are saying. And, I see where you are coming from. But, you have to understand that even though "The
Real Housewives" shows, which I do not watch, I have to admit. I do not watch them. But, they encourage -- I am sure they encourage a certain
lifestyle.
They encourage -- but they are not drug dealers and they are not bartenders. And, even though they may encourage a lifestyle where you
would want to party or want to drink, somewhere down the line someone, regardless of how deep and how desperate the situation has gotten with
addiction, there has to be that decision made.
No one at Bravo forced her to do that. And I say this as an alcoholic, as an addict in recovery. And, I understand that you have to
make personal decisions that can keep you out of trouble. But, Bravo is simply someone that is making entertaining television. And, somewhere down
the line, the buck has to be put on her.
(231:40:00) SCHACHER: Right, but cannot they support her? Cannot they support her?
PINSKY: Right. There is a certain amount of responsibility ethically, though.
CATHERWOOD: Without question. But, they are saying that somehow Bravo is responsible for her alcoholism manifesting to this point. And in
actuality, they are very much not, you know. That is like saying that Aerosmith is responsible for Steven Tyler`s `70s cocaine problem. And, it
is simply not true.
SCHACHER: But it contributes.
CATHERWOOD: It certainly -- It is adding gas to a fire without question.
SCHACHER: There you go.
PINSKY: All right. One more question.
BLOOM: Have you ever read that reality show contracts because I represented a lot of people. They are about 400 pages long. It is longer
than like a closing on a house document.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: You cannot do anything once you signed to these shows. They own you. They fan the flames if you have a problem, because they want the
drama.
PINSKY: One last question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Yes, Dr. Drew. I was just wondering. Alcoholism versus other drug addictions is a little different because it is
a legal form -- people been able to go in a store and buy it. So, what would be the course, I guess, that would help her stay away from it because
it is legal. Nobody is going to look at a woman weird because she goes to a store to buy a bottle of wine.
PINSKY: For those of us that treat addiction. We really do not see the distinction between the legal and illegal drugs. In fact, the biggest
problem of our time is alcohol and pills.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: Both good drugs, right?
HO: Right.
PINSKY: They are legal. They are prescribed by a doctor. But, if you die of addiction today, it is going to a pill death. That is how you
are going to die. So, it really is the legalities, help those of us who help these people to say, "Hey, I am going to call the cops. You know, I
am going to get you busted, put you in prison, then you are going to get sober." We can do that, but other than that the morality of it has no real
impact on us.
HO: And, the impact of alcohol use disorders versus the other types of drugs use disorders. There is a lot more -- there is a higher rate
because it is easy.
PINSKY: Because we all look at things as good or bad. They are not good or bad drugs. They are just humans and their relationships with
substances and these disorders that develop as a result.
Next, hook up apps, speaking of disorders, are leading to more cases of sexually transmitted diseases. You hear about that after this.
CATHERWOOD: Yeah!
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(21:46:17) PINSKY: Time now for the "Click Fix," where my panel tells us what is trending on their Facebook, Twitter or Instagram feeds.
Back with Sam, Mike, Judy. Mike, you are first.
CATHERWOOD: Oh yeah! Oh yeah!
(LAUGHING)
HO: Uh-oh.
CATHERWOOD: The DIU arrest. Nothing shocking there. Happens all the time, unfortunately. But this one is interesting. Caught on camera. This
young lady or should I say, 49-year-old grandmother was in a bikini.
A 49-year-old grandmother, she was pulled over for DUI with her -- she claims that she was swimming earlier with her 10-year-old grandson. And,
that is why she was in a bikini. I got to say, you know, for a 49-year-old grandmother, not so bad --
SCHACHER: Super Body. She looks great. But sad that she has been pulled over with her grandson in the car.
CATHERWOOD: Yes. And, she has a 10-year-old grandson, which means she was a grandma on 39. They are doing work in that family. I mean they
are really.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: All right. Sam?
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: OK. Mine is a YouTube video that has gone viral over three million views. Let me set this up. So, you see a staff, a group of
employees at a car dealership and they are awaiting training, OK.
So then you see -- there they are. They are waiting in the car. Now, that car, they are about to see a safety demonstration of a car that is
going to protect pedestrians but it goes wrong. Watch. So, they are waiting. This is a safety demonstration.
PINSKY: Is somebody driving the car?
SCHACHER: Oh!
HO: No, no, no, no.
CATHERWOOD: Oh!
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Oh! No.
SCHACHER: OK. OK. Luckily, Mike is not going to get in trouble for laughing because nobody got hurt. Thank God.
HO: Nobody got hurt?
SCHACHER: Nobody got hurt.
PINSKY: Wait a minute. Are they --
SCHACHER: Well, this is what happened. So, this is what Volvo told - - this is what Volvo told CNN that the car`s safety system did not malfunction, but rather the car use in the demo had never had the safety
system installed in the first place.
HO: Oh God! No.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: How do those guys avoid getting harm? That is what I want to know. What did they do to avoid their pelvis fractured?
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Judy, go ahead.
HO: OK. The stories are getting worse by the minute, because this one is about Rhode Island and is very scary actually. A part of health
found out that in the last year, Syphilis is up by 79 percent. HIV up by 33 percent.
CATHERWOOD: Nice.
HO: And gonorrhea is up 30 percent. And they blame this to the epidemic that these hookup apps are kind of putting on the people who are
doing casual hookups like Tinder --
PINSKY: Grinder.
HO: Grinder. And, they are saying that, you know what? Just watch until the national statistic forum, it is just because Rhode Island got to
the information first.
SCHACHER: What?
CATHERWOOD: There is about 45 people there.
HO: Exactly. It is a small sample.
CATHERWOOD: Very easy to interview.
PINSKY: Sam 45.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
SCHACHER: Gosh.
PINSKY: So, we are seeing gonorrhea, syphilis, HIV all up because of the increasing sexual activity, which is related to these apps --
SCHACHER: The accessibility.
CATHERWOOD: Which one of those, Drew, as a doctor, which one of those is bad, like really bad.
PINSKY: Which one of the diseases?
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: HIV.
CATHERWOOD: That is the one you want to watch out.
PINSKY: Gonorrhea and syphilis are curable. But, I like the way you always -- we love when we talk about STDs. You go, none of that matters --
CATHERWOOD: Yes. Hep C and HIV, you got those and then the rest is solve.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: But the important point of the HIV if you all read, but there is some data just come out that shows, the early you get treatment the
better. So, if you have any question, you might have been exposed, these things get tested immediately and get on treatment immediately because the
outcomes are very good if people are treated early.
Even things now called pre-exposure prophylaxis where you can prevent the disease by taking a pill everyday if you are at high risk. So, think
about all that. Research it. Look into it. I will answer more questions, in fact any questions you might have after the break in Dr. Drew`s Qs.
(21:49:51) (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(21:54:06) PINSKY: Time now for Dr. Drew`s cues. It is your chance to, well, embarrass me frankly or ask me any questions on any topic. You
can, of course, tweet your questions to @DrDrewHLN. Please use the #DrDrewsQs.
Speaking of Twitter. Here is Patricia. She says, "You have talked about most addicts having a catastrophic event early in life. Can you
explain?" People misquote or mishear me on this one all the time. What I say is that if you have bad enough addiction that you need to see me in
treatment, there is virtually a 100 percent probability that you had childhood trauma.
So, what I mean is, is that there is the genetic component of addiction, which accounts for 60 percent of the disease. And trauma can
sometimes activate the disease by creating people that cannot regulate their emotions particularly in adolescence.
And, then they try to look for a way to do that and they do that with drugs and alcohol and then the disease kicks in. And, It can put some
rocket fuel behind the disease, so they get bad addiction. I specialize in treating bad addiction. So, that is what I meant by that. Question from
the audience? Yes, ma`am?
(21:55:09) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Hi, Dr. Drew. I have been raised with a lot of family members that has been involved with drugs.
And, I learned to built this thick skin, where I do not tolerate it and do not put up with it.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: I have a close family member who I am trying to learn to completely remove myself from them.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Because I do not have the patience yet. There is others that still want to kind of help out. I do not know at what
point do we remove ourselves from them?
PINSKY: There is the easy -- sort of aphorism is support the recovery, reject the disease. So, if you feel you cannot be right -- it is
a very personal decision and obviously if you are helping them maintain their disease, you are not helping them.
But, if you reject them completely, that is not really helping them either. It would be OK, I mean if that is the way you want to deal with
it. It is better than enabling them for sure. But, we call it -- This may sounds like a little bit of goopy stuff.
We call it leaving with love, which is being still present with them but very clear that, "You know, I am holding you in my heart, I still love
you, but I cannot be around while you destroy yourself. As soon as you are ready to get sober, I am here for you."
But you have to maintain that boundary. And, it is really hard to do it unless you have other people supporting you. You are starting to tear
up just as I talk about it, right? It is really, really hard. You need that support yourself or you get angry and leave out the anger and that
does not help anybody. OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Thank you.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Twitter. Nancy says, a lot of addiction stuff today. "I have been taking OxyContin 40 mg a day. I want to know if medical
marijuana could help me instead I have a fractured femur hip in recovery."
Yes. It might actually. Cannabis does have some analgesic effects -- pain controlling effects. And, why we would use one and not the other, I
do not understand. Go ahead if it helps you, if a doctor can get it for you. If it helps you.
If you are an addict it is actually less dangerous to take the pot than to take the opiates. So, if it is working, you know, what the hell?
Why do we have to say, one is a good drug and one is a bad drug. That makes me insane. Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Hello. Through experience I have come to realize that smoking marijuana --
PINSKY: Here we go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: -- enhances sexual pleasure.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Whereas with alcohol sometimes it is hard to keep the soldier up.
PINSKY: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: So, I was wondering why?
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Well, both can give you that problem by the way. But some people do report that cannabis is more of an enhancing things and that can
make actually the drug almost too alluring sometimes for some people. It could a source for a problem, but be that as it may.
The cannabis affects other parts of the brain. It has opioid-like effect like what I was just talking about. And as such it can give you
more euphoria, eventually kind of work against you. So, I would not use it regularly that way. Alcohol is essentially nervous system depressant and
depresses everything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: OK.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: And so including the -- the Johnson.
(LAUGHING)
That is a medical term, everybody. Twitter, Ashley asked, "My boyfriend is dying for an update on Bobbi Christina. Is she still alive?!
The internet has mixed stories." So, because there is so many different stories out there. I am going to go to my internet expert, Samantha
Schacher. Get on in here, Sam and give me an update on for Bobbi Christina. Get in here.
SCHACHER: Yes. OK. So, if you were to Google whether or not Bobbi Kristina is dead, you will see a number of articles that pop up that say
that she does have brain death, but she is brain dead. So, she is not dead then. And, I do not even know if she is technically brain dead.
PINSKY: She is not. She is not brain dead.
SCHACHER: No. It is very -- yes, OK. So, please describe.
PINSKY: She is not brain dead. She is more of a close -- we do not know exactly what is happening with her. But, if she can breathe, if she
can blink, if she can move at all and she can breathe on her own --
SCHACHER: She is seizure --
PINSKY: But that is not brain dead. Brain dead is when there is no function.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: She has some very diminished functions. So, it is sort of in a vegetative state zone.
SCHACHER: Why are there articles saying that she is in brain dead?
PINSKY: Because I do not think people understand the difference between brain death and death and brain death and just simply brain damage.
She has had severe, severe global brain damage. She will never be the same.
And, that is what I have been screaming about for how long that they kep her alive in ICU for months and months and months to give her this kind
of life. I would come and haunt everybody that had anything to do with that. I would get you, I swear to God. I would find a way.
SCHACHER: OK. I am going to leave.
(LAUGHING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Yes. One more quick question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: I have a question with about the hereditary aspect of alcoholism.
PINSKY: Wow. It is addiction day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Yes.
PINSKY: OK. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: If a grandparent was an alcoholic how likely would it be to skip a generation say, "I have an addiction?"
PINSKY: It does not skip so much as somebody brings it through that does not manifest the disease. So, you have to see it in one of the --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: OK. Drinks more than enough.
PINSKY: Well, you kind of get a feeling where -- Which parent is the offspring of that grandparent?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: The father.
PINSKY: Does your father have a little something-something going?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Hmm.
PINSKY: All right. So, he could have about 50 percent probability that can then be transmitted to you roughly speaking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Yes.
PINSKY: So, it is approximately the way it is. So, if you have four siblings, it kind of two might get it, and two might not. One might, one
might not. But, also two could or two could not. Thank you very much for the question. I have to actually go out right now. Remind you to DVR us,
then you watch us anytime. I appreciate you, audience, for being here and all your good questions. I appreciate you guys for watching. We will see
you next time.
(22:00:00) (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
END
