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Martin O'Malley Running for President; Crime in Baltimore Up as the Number of Arrests Drops; Former House Speaker Accused of Paying Hugh Money; U.S. Student Killed Stopping Suicide Bomber in Saudi Arabia; Government Surveillance Programs Near Deadline; Jurors See James Holmes Psychiatrist Interview; New Witness in Natalee Holloway Mystery? Aired 1:00-2p ET

Aired May 30, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:11] RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now in NEWSROOM, he was two heartbeats away from the White House. Today new details on Dennis Hastert's $1.7 million secret.

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You were the last person to see Natalee Holloway alive?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Ten years after the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, an eyewitness says he knows where to find her.

And Martin O'Malley officially jumps into the presidential race.

You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Hello, everyone. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm Randi Kaye, in for Fredricka Whitfield.

The Democratic field for president just got larger. Martin O'Malley, the former Maryland governor and one-time Baltimore mayor, made it official this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN O'MALLEY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That is why today to you and to all who can hear my voice, I declare that I am a candidate for president of the United States, and I am running for you. May God --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Let's bring in now our political team on the ground in Baltimore. CNN's Jeff Zeleny and MJ Lee.

Jeff, to you first on this one. O'Malley is known in Maryland but nationally he doesn't have the name recognition of, say, Hillary Clinton or even Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. It seems like he has a little bit of work to do get his campaign off the ground.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Randi, there's no question that he has a bit of work to do and that's exactly why he is flying to Iowa right now, you know, just an hour or so after he finished his speech. The home of the first contest in this White House 2016 campaign.

But, in any other year, Martin O'Malley would have a gold-plated resume, a two-term mayor of a big city, a two-term governor of the state of Maryland, he even plays guitar in a rock band. Of course that is overshadowed by Hillary Clinton. But he is running as an alternative to her, as plan B, if you will. And if you ask him why he's doing it, he said it's time for a new generation of leadership, time for a new face to be put forward for the Democratic Party.

But of course we all know so well that Baltimore has been in the spotlight for the last several weeks and months because of protests. He did not shy away from that. He addressed it in his speech. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O'MALLEY: And there is something to be learned from that night. There is something to be offered to our country from those flames. For what took place here was not only about race, not only about policing in America, it was about everything it is supposed to mean to be an American.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: And by addressing that, he of course is raising one of his biggest vulnerabilities, policing policies as mayor of Baltimore. But he's going to talk about his progressive agenda going forward. He's going to talk about how as governor he signed into law a bunch of progressive issues like gay marriage and other things. So no question it's an uphill battle ahead of him but that's what campaigns are all about -- Randi.

KAYE: Absolutely.

Let me bring in MJ here. MJ, the questions about his Baltimore record as mayor that Jeff was touching on, coupled with the current crime and violence there, I mean, is this a short-lived story, do you think, or it could it become a campaign -- a real campaign problem for O'Malley?

MJ LEE, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Randi, this is a problem and an issue that is going to follow Martin O'Malley on the campaign trail. I spent some time yesterday here in Baltimore talking to some of the residents here and just asking them what did you think about his legacy as mayor of Baltimore and governor of Maryland, and while there are people who are very excited about his campaign, there are also residents, particularly in the African-American community, who are angry and frustrated about the policing tactics that Jeff talked about that they thought were discriminatory. And we saw here earlier today protesters coming out to try to

interrupt his rally. They didn't end up being very disruptive but I think it brings into focus a big problem for Martin O'Malley or a potential challenge. You know, we are in a state where the national dialogue is really focused on issues like police brutality, issues about race relations and tension, and this is an issue that is going to follow him on the road and he is going to be asked about over and over again.

KAYE: All right. We will continue to follow him, as well.

MJ Lee, Jeff Zeleny, thank you both very much.

Meanwhile, in his speech, Martin O'Malley addressed the divide in Baltimore between the police and the community following the death of Freddie Gray, but that divide may actually be getting worse. Some officers have told the police commissioner that they're actually afraid to make risky arrests because they don't want to end up being accused of misconduct, but there are other reports claiming that the police are intentionally responding to calls slowly to make a point because they've lost confidence in the chain of command.

[13:05:04] Now either way, the numbers show that the month of May is the deadliest month in Baltimore since 1996 with 39 murders now. Arrests for the month are actually down, under 2,000, compared to almost 4,000 arrests this time last year.

So let's talk about this a little bit more with Los Angeles police sergeant, Cheryl Dorsey. She is retired now.

And, Cheryl, I guess the first question is, you know, what is the fact that arrests are down and homicides are up tell you about what's going on with policing in Baltimore?

CHERYL DORSEY, RETIRED LOS ANGELES POLICE SERGEANT: Well, you know police officers are a crafty sort and so they have a way of making their discontent known, if you will. But I think the bigger problem here is that you have reportedly officers saying that they're afraid to do their job. And so I'd like to challenge Commissioner Batts to identify and locate every officer who says he's afraid to do his job and remove him from that position because you don't get to not do your job.

If you're doing the right thing, you have nothing to fear. If you're not mistreating people and severing the spine of someone who made eye contact with you, then you have nothing to fear.

KAYE: What about disciplinary action? We talked about this -- you know, this slowdown. Can there be disciplinary action that could be taken against officers who might be participating in the slowdown?

DORSEY: My guess that it would be very difficult to prove, much like an officer's perception of fear. How do you prove that the officer wasn't involved in traffic because we're required to obey all traffic laws, as we respond to calls for service? And if it's not a high priority call, and you drive the speed limit and you don't run any red lights or stop signs, it might take a little longer.

KAYE: What would help? I mean, if you think about the idea that, you know, many officers don't live where they work, would it help at all if they did live in that city?

DORSEY: I don't believe that you have to live in the city where you work in. And there's reasons why you wouldn't want to live in a city where you work in. I wouldn't want to encounter someone who may not be happy with the service that I provided to them because I had to take them to jail. All you really need to do is just care. All you really need to do is have empathy and compassion for the people that you serve.

KAYE: And then you have this meeting between prosecutors and the top police officials taking place. I mean, they met yesterday to try and mend relations, maybe bring both sides together. What is it going take? Would a meeting like that help or what's the answer.

DORSEY: Well, I believe that the Benevolent Officers Association just circle the wagon around those wrongdoers and to try to convince us that they did the right thing and that we didn't see what we saw in the Freddie Gray matter. And so I think what needs to happen is, I think probably Commissioner Batts needs to go.

The officers have voted a no confidence in his leadership ability, and understand, this is his third time as the head of a police department. I don't know why he's struggling with the issues that he's having problems with.

KAYE: And does it concern you? I guess I should say, how much does it concern you about the number of arrests this time compared to last year?

DORSEY: Well, again, it would appear that the officers are playing games. But how do you prove it? Right? If they're not responding to anything except for where that radio sends them, they're not being proactive in police work, how do you prove it's not coincidental or it's contrived?

KAYE: Either way, it's certainly not good for the city if the crime rate is going to go up.

Sergeant Cheryl Dorsey, appreciate it. Thank you very much.

DORSEY: Thank you.

KAYE: Protesters and counter-protesters faced off at a rally outside a Phoenix mosque that was holding a Draw Mohammed Cartoon contest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do not try to pervert the First Amendment. You don't get to --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our soldiers overseas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I respect your organizers' service but I'm a veteran and you're endangering our fellow soldiers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Police separated the groups afraid of violence. A similar event in Garland, Texas, earlier this month ended in gunfire. Police shot dead two armed ISIS sympathizers there who tried to attack that gathering.

Coming up, he was once the most powerful man in Congress. Now former House speaker Dennis Hastert is accused of lying to the FBI after paying more than $1 million to cover up a sex secret.

[13:09:19]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Former House speaker Dennis Hastert is under indictment for lying to the FBI. Federal prosecutors say he withdrew huge sums of cash, allegedly used as hush money to cover up sexual abuse with one of his former students. This dates back to his early years as a teacher and wrestling coach long before his political career started. And so far he isn't saying anything.

Here's CNN justice correspondent Pamela Brown.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well Randi, first came this indictment from the Justice Department with the shocking allegations that Dennis Hastert had lied to the FBI about withdrawing money for a cover-up. And now we are learning from sources alleged sexual misconduct involving an underage student was the reason behind the hush money.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Federal sources tell CNN Dennis Hastert, the longest-serving Republican U.S. House speaker, was paying hush money to a student at the Illinois high school where he once taught. More than a million dollars for the former student to keep allegations Hastert had sexually abused him quiet.

Hastert has not commented publicly. But he abruptly resigned from this Washington, D.C. lobbying firm, as well as from a Chicago derivatives firm. The indictment does not discuss sexual abuse. Instead, it focuses on how the 73-year-old former wrestling coach moved the money he allegedly was paying the former student. Prosecutors saying he agreed to pay an unnamed individual, quote, "$3.5 million to cover up his past misconduct."

According to court records, the investigation started two years ago when the FBI started investigating mystery transactions made by Hastert, bank withdrawals of more than $950,000. The FBI alleges several of the withdrawals were less than $10,000 so he could evade IRS detention. Prosecutors say when the FBI asked Hastert about the pattern of large withdrawals, he said he was keeping the cash for himself.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And we are told by sources federal authorities were looking at whether to bring extortion charges and concluded that was something that they didn't want to pursue. Hastert, meantime, has not returned our calls for comment. A friend of his, though, said that he perceives himself as the one being wronged here -- Randi.

[13:15:05] KAYE: Pamela Brown, thank you very much.

The "L.A. Times" is reporting a top law enforcement official says investigators also spoke to a second man who accused Hastert of similar allegations. "L.A. Times" reporter Tim Phelps spoke to CNN about that second man. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIM PHELPS, L.A. TIMES REPORTER: There were no payments going on between Hastert and the second official we're reporting.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: And this occurred when Hastert was a teacher and a wrestling coach at that high school?

PHELPS: Well, we believe that's the case. We don't have a lot of detail on the second victim. But in general, the charges made clear that it goes back before the time that Hastert was in office.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: The school where Hastert taught during the alleged sexual abuse says it had no knowledge of these accusations.

Still ahead, a Kansas college student being called a hero after ISIS launches a deadly bombing in Saudi Arabia. We'll tell you what he did.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: A great friend and a true hero. That's how University of Wichita student is being remembered today. 22-year-old Abdul Jalil Al Arbash gave up his life to save hundreds of others when he stopped a suicide bomber from entering a crowded mosque in Saudi Arabia.

[13:20:01] Now he and three others were killed outside the mosque when the bomber detonated. ISIS has claimed responsibility for that attack.

CNN correspondent Nick Valencia is covering the story for us.

So, Nick, tell me, I mean, he was about to get married, correct?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. That adds to the sadness and the grief, of course, of the family. He was in Saudi Arabia, according to his family, to get married. But before he did that he volunteered as a security guard outside a Shia mosque. Tensions were already high in the region because another mosque in the region had also been attacked.

According to reports, the suicide bomber showed up dressed as a woman and that heightened suspicions because women were told to stay home during Friday prayers because of this heightened security risk. It is said by his family that Abdul Jalil stopped that suicide bomber, along with his cousin. That bomber ended up detonating his device killing himself and three others.

But last night at a memorial service for this 22-year-old man, who was also a student at Wichita State University, his family spoke about his character at a memorial service.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAIM BALLOUT, AHLUL BAYT ISLAMIC ASSOCIATION: His move in Saudi Arabia was bravery. Because of the bravery and heroism, he saved a lot of people.

MUSTAFA ABUSAEED, FRIEND: He's like a brother or more than a brother for everybody. If you can see right now, you're going to see a smile on his face.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Abdul Jalil was not officially named by the government of Saudi Arabia but they did release a statement about the details of Friday afternoon's attack saying, quote, "Security men suspected a car when it was heading to the car parking adjacent to the mosque. When the security men approached the car, it exploded, killing four people, where one of them is believed to be the driver. Spreading fire to a number of cars."

Abdul Jalil was expected to return to Wichita State University this fall.

KAYE: And the university is also issuing a response?

VALENCIA: They are. They did confirm that he had died. They didn't list the circumstances or give details about the circumstances he died, but they did release a statement offering condolences saying, "The Wichita State University community is saddened by the tragic death of one of our students. Our condolences go out to Abdul Jalil's family, friends and colleagues in this time of loss, especially his bride-to-be." Never got a chance to get married.

KAYE: Incredible bravery, though, as we said at the top there, saving hundreds of lives potentially.

VALENCIA: That's right. Potentially.

KAYE: Yes. Amazing.

Nick Valencia, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

VALENCIA: Yes. Thanks.

KAYE: Up next, the clock is ticking, less than 24 hours until some key provisions of the Patriot Act run out. We'll go live to Washington, as leaders attempt to get a deal done.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:26:04] KAYE: Hello, everyone. Thanks for joining me. I'm Randi Kaye, in for Fredricka Whitfield.

Senator and GOP presidential hopeful Rand Paul says he will force the NSA data collection program to expire. The controversial law is set to expire tomorrow unless lawmakers renew it. Now Congress will hold a rare Sunday session with the hopes of coming up with a compromise. And the White House is warning of potentially serious consequences if a deal is not reached.

CNN's Sunlen Serfaty is at the White House with the very latest for us.

So, Sunlen, what is really the core issue here preventing an agreement?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Randi, it certainly taps into the balance between national security and the privacy of Americans. The White House has said that they believe this House bill, that passed, the compromised bill, really helps to pinpoint and make the changes necessary to address the concerns over privacy. That bill extends some of the provisions within the Patriot Act.

What it does is it changes that controversial bulk phone records data collection and it basically takes it from the hands of the government and puts it into the hands of the phone companies. For that reason, the White House says that this House bill should be passed by the Senate and, as you said, they really ratcheted up their language, calling it irresponsible and reckless by the Senate. If they don't pass this into law tomorrow.

Here's President Obama yesterday in the Oval Office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't want us to be in a situation in which, for a certain period of time, those authorities go away and suddenly we're dark and, heaven forbid, we've got a problem where we could have prevented a terrorist attack or apprehended someone who was engaged in dangerous activity but we didn't do so simply because of inaction in the Senate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: And Republican Senator Rand Paul, he says that he believes these programs are illegal and unconstitutional, and he says he's ready to block this from happening again tomorrow. He's both against the extension of the Patriot Act but also this House passed bill unless he says significant changes are made to weaken the government's surveillance powers. He tweeted out just moments ago, "There has to be another way. We must find it together. So tomorrow I will force the expiration of the NSA illegal spy program."

At this time, Randi, clearly, there is no firm way forward -- Randi.

KAYE: And in terms of the timetable, and we know the program doesn't expire until Sunday at midnight, but parts of it are actually going to start shutting down before the Senate even meets, right?

SERFATY: That's absolutely right. That's something that the White House has been warning about, exactly one minute before the Senate convenes tomorrow at 4:00 p.m. these programs will start shutting down at 3:59 p.m. in the afternoon. They say the NSA will have to start winding down aspects of those surveillance programs. They said they'll have to reach out to inform phone companies, also shut down servers and tweak some software on their end, really clearly making it the case that there's a small window of the time for the Senate to act.

They say unless the Senate acts and passes this into law and President Obama signs that legislation into law by 8:00 p.m. tomorrow night, then these measures can be reversed of that winding down but they say after 8:00 p.m., then little chance that this can be wrapped up and reversed in any fair amount of time -- Randi.

KAYE: Yes. Sounds like it's going to be a messy day in Washington, for sure.

CNN's Sunlen Serfaty at the White House, thank you.

The trial of the Colorado theater shooter has already seen some dramatic evidence presented. What role James Holmes' diary and interviews with psychiatrists could play in his verdict. Next.

[13:29:48]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Was James Holmes mentally ill when he opened fired and killed 12 people in a crowded Colorado movie theater? He has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, but prosecutors say that Holmes knew what he was doing. And a new video of the 27-year-old speaking with a psychiatrist reveals new insights into his state of mind.

CNN's Ana Cabrera has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Appearing calm and speaking in a steady, monotone voice, the words of accused theater shooter James Holmes have a chilling effect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember the day you were arrested?

JAMES HOLMES, ACCUSED THEATER SHOOTER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What day was it?

HOLMES: July 20th, 2012.

CABRERA: For the jury, the video is a brief look inside the mind of the alleged killer, taken during a mental evaluation to determine whether Holmes was legally insane when he opened fire in a Colorado movie theater.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you take into consideration the fact that when you're talking to him he knows that he's facing the death penalty?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

CABRERA: Ordered by the court, Dr. William Reid interviewed Holmes nine times for a total of 22 hours.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you drink quite a bit in college?

HOLMES: No, I wasn't a huge drinker.

CABRERA: The conversation turns dark when Holmes says he suffers from depression after breaking up with his girlfriend just months before the shooting in 2012.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you think about hurting yourself or killing yourself?

HOLMES: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about hurting or killing other people?

HOLMES: Yes. I kind of transferred it to kind of homicidal thoughts.

CABRERA: Dr. Reid concluded Holmes knew right from wrong, that he was sane when he killed 12 and injured 70 others. Prosecutors say he planned and detailed his actions in his journal.

[13:35:04] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he discuss having a desire to kill people?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he does.

CABRERA: Holmes sent the notebook to a psychiatrist at the University of Colorado before the shooting. But it was discovered too late. In it, Holmes writes, "The obsession to kill since I was a kid, with age became more and more realistic." And he details different ways to carry out an attack, from bombs to biological warfare to serial murder. He settles on mass murder at the movies, writing, "Maximum casualties, easily performed with firearms, being caught 99 percent certain." Holmes has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Insights into the mind of madness.

CABRERA: The defense points out the notebook also contains ramblings that don't make any sense, and Holmes also writes about his mental illness. "So anyways, that's my mind, it's broken," he writes. Whether the jury believes that could determine the fate of a self- described, shy, but once promising, PhD student.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What brings tears to your eyes sometimes?

HOLMES: Just regrets.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Regrets about?

HOLMES: About the shooting.

CABRERA: Ana Cabrera, CNN, Denver.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE: So let's talk more about what to expect next in the case and this trial. Joining me is Mary Ellen O'Toole, she's a former FBI profiler and special agent. And here via Skype, we have Gail Saltz, a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, she's also the author of the book "The Psychology of Living a Lie." And HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson is also with us.

Mary Ellen, let me start with you on this one. Looking at that diary, what does it show about Holmes' frame of mind ahead of these killings, would you say?

MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FORMER FBI PROFILER: What it shows to me is that there's really significant leakage in terms of his homicidal ideation and -- that it goes back in time at least according to what he's writing, and he talks in parts in a very logical way as he lays out what's a good venue and what's not a good venue. This is leakage, though. And what's important is that this writing is not dynamic.

So what is the next step, the most logical step is you have to sit down and talk to the person and determine, do you know the difference between right and wrong? And did you understand the consequences of your behavior? So his journal is a tremendous jumping off point, but you have to go further than that.

KAYE: And, Gail, just talking about, you know, some of the things that are in the journal, you have a desire to kill, violent thoughts, an obsession with killing, do the contents of that notebook, Gail, do they tell you whether or not Holmes could actually meet the legal standard of insanity in this case?

DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: They don't tell you one way or the other because the question, as was mentioned already, is really, did he have psychiatric illness that at the moment he committed the crime and in the planning of the crime was basically impacted by psychotic thinking? So, for instance, if he had written that, you know, he didn't think that killing someone was wrong, that he was doing it because, you know, of some delusion that he had and, therefore, felt that it was right, or he had to do it, was forced to do it because of his psychotic thoughts, then that would meet the criteria. But you can have serious psychiatric illness, which he may have, and

still not be legally insane because it doesn't impact the reason that you did the crime, it doesn't impact your ability to know that what you're doing is wrong. It doesn't, therefore, meet legal criteria of insanity.

KAYE: And, Joey, I mean, this notebook is really a window into what this guy was thinking before this all happened. I mean, what impact could something so valuable like that and the interviews this likely have on the trial?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure, Randi. Good afternoon. Always good to be with you. What's going to happen here is that it will be a battle of the experts. We know from a prosecution perspective, their experts are going to say that they've evaluated him, they've looked at the notebook, and certainly he was sane, he was lucid, he was rational, he knew right from wrong, and that's the standard.

However, you're going to hear defense experts, who are equally as capable, equally as competent, say that their evaluation shows something significantly different. And so you can look at the notebook, and of course the prosecution will cherry pick items which show that rationality, where should I engage in these attacks? Should I do it at an airport? No, I don't think so, too much security.

The defense will look at other aspects of the notebook that have rambling equations, that have why, why, why, scribbled everywhere and each side will cherry pick the notion that supports their point of view. Ultimately it will come down to what he knew at the time that he was engaging in this action and the prosecution, Randi, will hasten to add the plotting, the planning, the premeditation and everything that goes into it, and finally the defense will say he was simply delusional in a deep psychosis, he didn't know exactly what he was doing, you cannot hold him accountable. And that's the battle that will be before the jury.

[13:40:14] KAYE: Yes. And Mary Ellen, I mean, one of the things, you know, just to be blunt here, that the jury will have to consider is, could he be faking it? I mean, have you seen this before?

O'TOOLE: Absolutely. We've seen it in other cases where there's malingering on the part of the defendant, and that behavior can be seen in how they present in the courtroom. It can be presented in how they behave in the jail cell. So I think the jury will probably have to consider that very strongly in terms of this case. And it can make an impact.

KAYE: And, Gail, how will his demeanor in the courtroom there and the photos of him and his behavior in the court? How will that play with the jury?

SALTZ: You know, I think when someone appears ill, of course, it has to affect the jury's mind. And appearing ill can be because you're actively ill at the moment or because you're heavily medicated, and have -- so there's something called flat affect, which means you have kind of the stony non-emotional looking face, and you can have flat affect because you've had ongoing schizophrenia. You can also have flat appearing affect because you're on a lot of antipsychotic to control your illness, and that is an unfortunate side effect.

But either way a jury who sees someone, who doesn't seem to be having normal emotion response to things and therefore looks odd or eccentric in some way, that certainly could affect the way the jury sees and hears the information that's being presented to -- to them. They may say, wow, he really does seem ill. What the jury will have to be continually reminded of is that it's possible, and it sounds like, he actually is really ill.

And he has been ill but that doesn't mean that he's legally not responsible or insane in terms of committing the crime. You can have both things be true.

KAYE: And, Joey, how much personal information would the jury know about him? And would they know if he's on medication? What else would they know about him? And how would that weigh into which way they go with this?

JACKSON: Sure, Randi. Fabulous question. What will happen is, is that certainly the defense attorneys when they get up will cross- examine the expert, Dr. Reid. Sir, you interviewed him but that was two years after this event, is that not right? And certainly he was medicated at that time, would that be true? In fact he was medicated for a period of time when you interviews him and certainly this would not reflect his state of mind during your interview which would be his state of mind at the event, and that is when he engaged in this mass shooting, isn't that correct?

And so certainly both sides are attempting to use who he is and what he is for their own purposes. The prosecution, to say, listen, this is a normal person, you know, who turned into having some type of mental illness, that mental illness does not equate with legal insanity. And from the defense perspective, a person who's certainly amiss and a person who certainly at that time was under medication, that does not reflect what he was at the time he is insane, he is delusional, you cannot hold him accountable.

And that's the battle, Randi. And finally, you know, in any courtroom, you always have two professors. And both of them sound like they know what they're talking about. The prosecution certainly espousing a point of view, and that is he is sane, ladies and gentlemen, and look to the evidence that establishes that. And the defense professor saying, you know what, he is delusional, he cannot be held accountable, he had no idea what he was doing, look at the past history of who he is and what he is. That should answer the question and that's what the jury will have to sift through, Randi.

KAYE: Yes. It's going to be a tough one for the jury, I bet.

All right, thank you all. Mary Ellen O'Toole, Gail Saltz and Joey Jackson, of course. Appreciate it.

JACKSON: Have a great day. Thank you. O'TOOLE: Thank you.

KAYE: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:48:10] KAYE: Could a man who claims to be an eyewitness hold the key to what happened to Natalee Holloway. The Alabama teenager disappeared 10 years ago today while on a high school graduation trip to Aruba. She was never found. But a man has come forward now saying that he knows where to find her body.

CNN's Martin Savidge has been investigating his claims and joins us now live from Palm Beach, Aruba.

Martin, what have you found?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Randi. Where we're standing right now is the spot 10 years ago that authorities maintain and even the Holloway family believes was the last place that Natalee Holloway was, here, this spot here with Joran Van Der Sloot. The new witness who comes forward says, you know what, that's wrong, and it's been wrong for 10 years.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE (voice-over): Jurren de Jong says he's something the Natalee Holloway case has never had -- an eyewitness.

(On camera): You were the last person to see Natalee Holloway alive.

JURREN DE JONG, CLAIMS HE WITNESSED HOLLOWAY'S MURDER: Yes.

SAVIDGE: So where have you been? Because it's been 10 years.

(Voice-over): Actually, de Jong isn't new. He's been speaking up for years. In 2008, he even called Natalee's father and said --

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S FATHER: She's on land, and I know where her body is hidden. And my initial thought was, oh, this is another crazy.

SAVIDGE: He's gone to the police numerous times, even given a sworn statement.

(On camera): What happened?

DE JONG: Nothing.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): Here's his version. On the night Natalee Holloway vanished, De Jong says he was doing something illegal at a construction site. He won't say what. But around 2:00 a.m., he says he sees a young man who later he identifies as Joran Van Der Sloot, chasing a young woman into the site.

DE JONG: I thought first in a playful way like I'm going to get you. SAVIDGE: He says the couple disappeared into a small section of

construction.

DE JONG: After five minutes, he came out with her in his arms.

SAVIDGE: And it was what he saw the man do that told De Jong the woman was dead.

[13:50:05] DE JONG: He literally slammed her, like -- and then you don't start hiding this person in a crawl space.

SAVIDGE: Joran Van Der Sloot is serving 28 years in prison for the murder of a young woman in Peru. He has never been charged in the Natalee Holloway case. Now De Jong's testimony seems to practically solve the mystery of what happened to Natalee. And nearly 10 years after she disappeared, authorities have finally gotten around to investigating it.

ERIC OLTHOF, ARUBAN PROSECUTOR: I don't know whether he's lying. I can only say that his statement can't be true.

SAVIDGE: That construction site in 2005 is now a 12-storey vacation property owned by Marriott. And the prosecutor says Marriott informed him at the time Natalee vanished, there was no construction.

OLTHOF: Because when there's no construction, Natalee Holloway can't be buried in the crawl space under the foundation.

SAVIDGE: That certainly seems true. But Dave Holloway believes Marriott may be possibly wrong about those construction dates. Holloway led a number of searches for his daughter on Aruba, and he remembers the place.

HOLLOWAY: I was there on June 1st, and there was definitely construction in that area. June 1st, 2005.

SAVIDGE: And this Google Earth view from June 2005, a short time after Natalee vanished, appears to show a construction site, and the fuzzy shapes of structures. We asked Marriott for clarification, but in a statement, the company made no mention of the building, saying only, "As we have done all along, we cooperate fully with authorities whenever they are conducting an official investigation."

HOLLOWAY: What he's describing in his story matches what's physically there at the time. So I'm thinking, this could be something. It's something that really needs to be looked at closely.

SAVIDGE: Holloway wants a search, but authorities say that's not going to happen.

OLTHOF: It's useless to search there with a cadaver dog or drilling or whatever. One thing will be sure, she's not lying there. She can't be lying there.

(END VIDEOTAPE) SAVIDGE: Dave Holloway and I have had a number of conversations about this witness. You can sense that Dave Holloway does not want to build up his hopes too much, but unfortunately it looks like he already has. He really would like to see an investigation of that site and he's been told now by the prosecutor's office that won't happen. And as he put it, that is causing him a great deal of anxiety -- Randi.

KAYE: And Martin, though, it's hard to understand why the prosecutor would say it's useless. I mean, why not check it out? Why are they so sure it's useless?

SAVIDGE: Right. He says that he's gone through the entire case file, which is thousands of pages. Remember he only got on this case in October. And he says from the statements the witnesses have given, apparently the information that Marriott has provided, maybe some other things they won't mention, they are just certain that, one, this man is mistaken and, two, that she can't possibly be where she is.

I said, well, look, why don't you just check and put it all to rest? And he said they won't do that, it will build false hope. And I said, well then people will always doubt you. He said yes, I know.

KAYE: Wow, I guess you lose either way.

All right, Martin Savidge, I appreciate your reporting, thank you.

Let's talk more about this case now. Joining us is senior FBI profiler and special agent Mary Ellen O'Toole.

Mary Ellen, you actually worked on the Holloway disappearance. Natalee Holloway has been missing now for 10 years today. Does this man who claims that he knows where she was buried appear to have any credibility, do you think? Or did authorities make a mistake in continuing to ignore him?

O'TOOLE: Well, the case was assigned to me as the FBI agent profiler. And I did go to Aruba and listening to the story and I've been following it, you know, I've never met the witness, but, you know, I'm very concerned that there's not enough reason or justification not to check this out. I mean this is an older man at the time that Natalee went missing. Our information was coming either through Joran or through his friends and this man does not to have any association with him.

He's older. He's really made multiple efforts to contact people. He's going to -- he was fearful of getting in trouble. For all we know he could still get in trouble because of his illegal activities at the time. But there's just such a concerted effort. Apparently he even went there himself and tried to drill into the foundation. So I'm just extremely concerned that there's not the slightest bit of effort to say, yes, maybe he forgot, maybe he got his information wrong. But we're going to check it out anyway.

[13:55:03] I would never rely on a hotel saying it's not -- it's not correct or on my saying, I just don't believe this man because he's probably lying to me. KAYE: But as you well know, you know, at the time authorities, they

practically tore that island of Aruba apart searching for Natalee Holloway. Do you think that it's really possible that she has been there all along?

O'TOOLE: Well, but you have to remember, and being down there I know that this is true. Much of the search was focused on her body being put in the ocean and currents taking her away. And that was really the focus because the information that was given to law enforcement at the time was that was -- you know, that's what happened. And so this is a completely different new lead and it's one that maybe you're not 100 percent or maybe you're not even 50 percent comfortable with the witness.

With a case like this, and because of the way it was handled initially, the FBI -- we went down there as advisers, we had no jurisdiction. We would not have handled the investigation that way. I think you owe it to the victim and the family and to all the investigators to do as much as you can to check out this lead.

KAYE: Yes, absolutely. Appreciate your insight, Mary Ellen O'Toole, thank you so much.

O'TOOLE: You're welcome.

KAYE: And we have much more just ahead in the NEWSROOM. It starts after a very short break.

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