Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

President Obama's Envoy Holds Talks in Iraq; Shia Militiamen Battle ISIS For Crucial Highway; Witness: Alabama Teen Was Not Buried At Sea; Rand Paul Versus the GOP; O'Malley Joins in Democratic Run for the White House; Democratic Candidates Talk Wage Gap, Minimum Wage. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired May 30, 2015 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[17:00:22] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Five o'clock Eastern, I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. Right now, President Obama's point man on the war on ISIS is holding high level meetings in Iraq. General John Allen flew to Baghdad for a sit down with Iraq's prime minister and top military brass. Are changes in the works in the strategy to try to defeat ISIS? This comes as clashes inside Iraq's Anbar Province are nearing a crucial stage. Fighters there are trying to dodge booby trapped and mines and a straggle to remove ISIS from a crucial highway.

Our senior international correspondent Nick Paton Walsh got rare access to the front lines, look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Shia fighters say they have just taken the town ahead of us Said Gharib. But look just to the right of the black smoke here. It's not that simple. Mines are at the road side past the tree line. The blasts could be them being cleared away by engineers or taking more lives.

(on camera): Now heard in the distance two thuds, one very substantial. We're told there's a controlled explosion of mines in the area that just clear. And they seem quite calm here. But it could also be one of the cars has hit one of the mines laid by ISIS.

(voice-over): This is what they videoed of the fight close to a vital highway north. ISIS would just pushed out to its edges as we move closer it gets messier. We think a mortar lands nearby and stay in the car.

(on camera): Since we have been waiting on the road, there have been three or four substantial explosions, which may well be their fighters still coming across booby traps laid in the area. It just shows you how incredibly hard it's going to be to retake land here for people to come back to live in.

(voice-over): As we move out, Shia fighters pour north up the road. This is what victory against ISIS looks like, little to saver.

(on camera): The impression you get from seeing that is really have chaotic sometimes these frontlines can be. Different militia groups working alongside each other, potentially disagreeing on territory. They say advancing substantially along the main highway routes here and pushing ISIS back claimed in the area you just saw there that ISIS were encircled nearby but those explosions consistent, a sense of volatility on the highway as well. And I think you see in areas like that how long this conflict could go on for. Territory may change hands, but still ISIS for years many when the Americans had a presence here military in Iraq in a symmetrical warfare and sending bombs into areas that don't have a permanent presence, it's very hard to stop and it's very hard to see how peace really and a sense of society getting back to normal can rain here in the years ahead in Iraq.

Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Nick, thank you for that. Let's talk more about the U.S. strategy to fight ISIS inside Iraq with former CIA operative Bob Baer. Bob, when we look at what General Allen is doing ordering these 2,000 anti-tank grenade launchers, it just seems like a lot of incremental steps. And I wonder what you see in this strategy?

ROBERT BAER, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE: Well, Poppy exactly, it's incremental. We really haven't quite got into the Sunnis who live in Al Anbar Province. They don't go to Baghdad. We of course can't visit there. The Sunnis we do talk to have to be run through the Shia government. I wouldn't call them exactly. They don't have credibility with the other Sunnis. And what best we can do now is give weapons to the government and hope and really we can't count on that they're going to use them properly. The problem right now is that ISIS has adopted this tactic where they take a truck and they armor it, fill it with explosives and they drive toward a position, an Iraqi position and rather than drive forward, they back it up and the cabin is armored with suicide bomber. And when they get close to the position, they blow it up. The only way to stop these are with rockets and that's what we're doing now. And, you know, we'd have to give the army the weapons because right now, the army is being outmaneuvered on the field. This army, the Iraqi, ISIS is being run by former Saddam officers. They know what they're doing. They have been in combat, they are well trained and they have great use of, you know, great understanding of explosives.

HARLOW: In order to really defeat ISIS in Anbar Province, you have to empower the Sunnis, right? And so we saw Ash Carter, the defense secretary talking this week about the potential for the U.S. to directly arm the Sunnis, meaning directly distribute arms to them. I wonder if you think that it's a good idea and how much risk you think there is in terms of those arms staying with the Sunnis and not ending up in ISIS's hands.

[17:05:21] BAER: Well, Poppy, that's exactly it. In the past, the Sunnis have simply turned around and sold the weapons to the Islamic State or just abandoned them in place. The tribes that are fighting outside of the government aren't particularly capable. They are not large. They have been taking losses, but they are not going to turn the battle. My contention in a lot of very smart people on Iraq as you first need to set up a political framework, a very loss federalism in Iraq, which would be a very attractive to the Sunnis. They need to see some sort of gain at the end of this. You just can't give weapons and say, go get rid of the Islamic State. And they will take care of you. They want to be taken care of politically now. So if we could convince this government in Baghdad to really force through an agreement, except the Sunnis and then turn on the Islamic State with weapons is more likely to succeed.

HARLOW: That's exactly what we're going to talk about in the next segment. Bob, thank you. Stick around. We're going to talk more with you ahead as well. I appreciate it.

Also tomorrow marks one year since this moment, do you remember this moment? It is when Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl finally climbed aboard the American helicopter. He was released from five years of Taliban captivity in Afghanistan. In exchange the U.S. transferred five Guantanamo inmates to Qatar for a year. That deal with Qatar, it expires on Monday. U.S. and Qatari officials are meeting today to try to decide what do they do with the Taliban five now.

ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, under the agreement, the detainees have been monitored by the Qatari government for one year and banned from traveling outside the country. Now the State Department is leading separate negotiations with both the governments of Qatar and Afghanistan about what happens next. U.S. officials say, there are few options in play. Now, the U.S. prefers they stay in Qatar where they will be monitored. The five will brought their family there. Now total amount 70 among them. The other options could see the five returning to Afghanistan either be released or monitored by the Afghan government.

Now the Qataris say they will not expand the restrictions on the five nor will they send them home to Afghanistan if they don't want to leave Qatar. So none of these are great options. These are five pretty high ranking Taliban officials. At least one is trying to communicate with Taliban militants back home since arriving in Qatar, raising questions about whether the lives of Afghans, Americans and U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan would be at risk. Now, republican lawmakers were upset with the deal in the first place. Now they are calling on the Obama administration to make sure that these five are not set free -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Elise Labott, thank you for that. I appreciate it.

Turning to the flood ravaged state of Texas. Flash flood watcher are in effect until 7:00 local time tonight in North Central Texas. This is video from Dallas. The National Weather Services. Enough rain has fallen in Texas this month alone to cover the entire state with eight inches of water. Federal aid is on its way. Twenty two people though have died in Texas so far this spring as a result of the severe weather there.

Well, it is a poignant day, a very sad day for the family of Natalee Holloway. It has been ten years to the day since she vanished on vacation in Aruba. Now, a man is coming forward saying he's the last person to have seen her alive and he says, he knows where she is buried. What he told CNN, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:12:07] HARLOW: Today marks ten years since Natalee Holloway disappeared during a high school trip to Aruba. And the questions over what happened to her are once again back in the headlines. That is because a man now says he saw her right before she died. He claims to know where her body is buried.

CNN Martin Savidge spoke extensively with him and he joins us live from Aruba. Martin, what exactly did he tell you? And I know he's been saying this to investigators for a long time. They just haven't really been doing anything.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, they really haven't followed up on it until now, ten years later. And the keyword is what you used there in the introduction which is buried. Because for the most part, investigators and the family, the Holloway family have believed that whatever happened to Natalie Holloway, she ended up in the ocean, her body did. This person is saying, no, it didn't happen that way at all. In fact, he knows this because he was doing something illegal at a construction site in 2005, May 30th, when he saw two people. The young man and young woman later identified the man as Jordan van der Sloot. They were chasing. He thought it was playful. But a few minutes later, he saw the young man emerge holding the young lady and she appeared to be dead. This is what he told us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JURRIEN DE JONG, CLAIMS TO KNOW WHERE HOLLOWAY IS BURIED: -- An opening crawl space under the foundation and he pulled her by the ankles inside the crawl space. Stayed inside for a minute or something and then came out and closed the gap.

SAVIDGE: Now, keep in mind, this was a construction site in 2005. Fast forward to now and you have a 12-story Marriott vacation property there and this is where this witness is now saying that deep down in the foundation is where Natalee Holloway's body was buried. The authorities, though, they still don't buy it -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Right. And they are still not doing any sort of excavation to try to find out if that's true or not. I understand Martin that this man who says he's a witness actually called Holloway's father directly at one point?

SAVIDGE: He did. That was back in 2008. He had left Aruba at that point. And he thought that he wasn't having any luck with the authorities, so he thought one father would go to another father. That's what he did. The problem is Dave Holloway was also so invested emotionally and mentally into the idea that his daughter was in the water when a man sort of calls you out of the blue and says you know what, she's buried, I saw it, I know where she is. He just wasn't in a mind set to accept that and he admits he blew the witness off. He put him down as a cook.

HARLOW: Well, now, of course, he still wants answers and wanted authorities to do everything they possibly can ten years ago today that Natalie Holloway disappeared. Martin Savidge, thank you so much.

Instead of fighting for Iraq, should we stand aside and let Iraq break apart? We're going to talk about what some experts say is the answer to ending a brutal war there that is still raging ago cross the country. We'll take a look at both scenarios, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:19:02] HARLOW: Well, America's point man on countering ISIS is pledging more support to Iraq. General John Allen met with Iraqi leaders in Baghdad today after a really tough week of losses in Anbar Province that he calls frustrating. He offered to send 2,000 anti- tank grenade launchers in addition to continuing those U.S. and coalition airstrikes. One aspect that is not helping Iraq at all though is the political fighting within Iraq between the different factions. It's led some experts to wonder if breaking up Iraq might be the answer to preserving it.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Iraq is a little bit bigger than the state of California. And many experts believe that it's split up amongst three distinct factions. First you have the Kurds, they make up 17 percent of the country. Arab Sunni, (audio gap).

HARLOW: All right. It looks like we lost our feed there. But we're going to talk about this because CNN intelligence and security analysts and former CIA operative Bob Baer just pinned an article on this. So, Bob, you and I were just talking earlier on the hour about the issue with Iraq. It's not just about defeating ISIS. It's not just about getting Ramadi back in Fallujah. It's about bringing the country politically together and the hope of this administration is that having the new president in Iraq, having new leadership there is part of the solution. But other experts say you've got to break it up because they are not going to come together. What's your take?

BAER: Poppy, I think the country in fact has broken up. You've got the Sunni Arab area, you've got the Kurds who are Sunnis mostly have their own state. They have their own oil income. The head of the Kurdish area was in Washington two weeks ago saying that if we don't get paid more money from Baghdad, we're breaking off completely and then you have the Shia south and most of Baghdad. The hard part would be drawing up the map. The Sunnis actually have a map, they showed me they would like to divide the oil income for Kirkuk in a fair like whatever that is, they would make Baghdad an open city and on and on. They are quite determined they are not coming back. They are willing to lose Ramadi. They are willing to lose Mosul, but they want to be a separate state. And by the way, not to confuse anyone, the Syrians are heading that way too between Sunni and Alawite.

HARLOW: So, I do want to talk with Syrian, the President that this might -- Syrian in just a moment. But Bob, when you talk about drawing lines and breaking up the country, who ultimately would even decide that, sign off on that? How does that work politically?

BAER: You'd have to get an international body. We don't have the credibility to go in and do it. And the Iranians of course don't nor are the Russians. You have to get the U.N., you have to get U.N. mandate to divide it up and take a look at this. It would be enormously complicated on ISIS, especially the energy, and there's mixed populations that would have to be divided. People could choose. But the alternative Poppy is this continuous four which is not going to stop with all the weapons we can send it in. Because the Sunnis, look at the government in Baghdad, even the moderate Sunnis are illegitimate. Abadi, the prime minister, remember Dallof (ph), the sectarian party? He is looked at as a clone of Malaki. Whether it's true or not is not important. But that's the way the Sunnis looked at it. And that's why we're at this impasse. You know, it may serve our interests to push this fiction of Iraq until 2016, but it doesn't serve the Iraqis interest.

HARLOW: Yes. And that's what's most important, the people that are living there, and the citizens caught in the middle of all of this. You brought up Syria. It's important to talk about what precedent this would set for Syria. What would it mean?

BAER: You divide up Syria as well. You look at the Sunni East, Hasaki (ph), Derasor (ph), Aleppo, maybe even Damascus would go to the Sunnis, the Alawites, these are Shia Muslims would be in the mountains along the coast. Along Labikiya (ph). A lot of Christians would move there too. Last weekend I talked to somebody very close to Bashar al Assad, meet him in Europe and he said the unthinkable is they are going to divide that country up. A year ago they wouldn't consider it, but now even the Alawite say their best defense is simply to see the eastern part of the country to the Sunnis. And I should add Poppy that I'm hearing more rationality out Ansari Islam, you know, these other fundamentalists groups who are saying, no, we cannot use Syria as a platform to attack the west. Let's establish a Sunni area, a Sunni Islamic State and that's all we want. Now, you can't trust them, but in a sense it's encouraging.

HARLOW: Bob Baer, it's fascinating and important discussion to have, thank you so much. And for all of you watching, you can read Bob's column about this. It's called, is a two-state solution the answer to Iraq's problems? That's right at CNN.com.

Well, the Senate is running out of time to extend key parts of the Patriot Act. We're talking about a midnight dead line tomorrow night. But one senator says he is not going to let that happen. Is Rand Paul playing politics with the tools the NSA says it needs to keep the U.S. safe or is he making the point he's been arguing for quite a long time?

[17:24:16] But first, get ready for a taste of nostalgia. Anthony Bourdain has back to his home state, for a new episode of "Parts Unknown" airing tomorrow night at 9:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN. Here's a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Here's a deal with Jersey, people land at north, and they drive up to Turnpike. They don't turn off. That's New Jersey.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I think it's beautiful. Northern New Jersey is the embroidery capital of the world apparently. I don't know where that's happening.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: -- embroidery company.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I swear to God.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: For all of the marvelous things about New Jersey, will people ever come across the bridge and the tunnel in the other direction?

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: No. I did not have to think about that.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Let's go to a club in Jersey.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: You know what, it's all relative. A 25-year-old guy is going, we're not going to Jersey. A 60-year-old person is going, I'm getting out of the city.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: There's your answer. There's your answer.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: You know, what? We're just hitting a stop at what age?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:28:36] HARLOW: It may seem like an odd way to win over republican faithful first by trying to abolish key provisions of the same anti- terror law that the party held right after 9/11. And then by blaming fellow party members, fellow republicans for contributing to the rise of ISIS. It may seem odd that it is what's playing out right now. This is the strategy in recent days of presidential hopeful Rand Paul.

Here's CNN Athena Jones.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Rand Paul increasingly at odds with some key members of his own party. Doubling down on his opposition to government surveillance. Tools supporters say are vital to fighting terrorism.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Our founding fathers, the intent was to protect our privacy.

JONES: Paul has led the charge against the NSA's mass collection of phone data. He took to the Senate floor to block attempts to extend the program beyond its June 1st expiration. That prompted an eye roll from one fellow republican.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I object.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Objection is heard.

PAUL: Our forefathers would be aghast.

JONES: A libertarian with an isolationist streak, he's also blaming some in his party for the rise of ISIS.

PAUL: Isis exist and grew stronger because of the hawks in our party who gave arms indiscriminately and most of those arms were snatched up by ISIS.

JONES: Comments also drawing fire from his fellow presidential hopefuls.

[17:30:00] BOBBY JINDAL, (R), LOUISIANA GOVERNOR: When it comes to foreign policy, which is an increasingly important issue, his statements yesterday and some of his previous statements I just think were unsuitable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there's a lot of good things about him. I think he's just wrong on this one.

RICK SANTORUM, (R), FORMER SENATOR & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would expect to hear that from Bernie Sanders, not from someone running for the Republican nomination.

JONES (voice-over): Paul vows to keep blocking the NSA programs, sending snarky tweets like this to President Obama: "In 2006, you said we should defend privacy of Americans, so you were for privacy before you were against it?" And calling on his supporters to "Stand with Rand" and throw in some cash. His campaign even selling this filibuster starter pack with a T-shirt that reads "The NSA Knows I Bought This Rand Paul T-Shirt."

Still, Paul's opponents say he's wrong on the NSA.

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R), GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY: And there's nobody engaging in this national conversation, other than me, who has used these tools. I have used them for seven years as a prosecutor. And what they talk about is theoretical. What I talk about is actual.

JONES: Athena Jones, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: It has been quite a week for Senator Rand Paul. He warned today that he will, quote, "Force the expiration of the NSA illegal spy program." He plans to do that on the Senate floor tomorrow night when Congress meets for a rare session to try to hash this out before it expires.

Let's talk about it with CNN political commentators, Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson.

Guys, thank for being here.

Ben, let's begin with you.

Take a look at this statement. This is part of what Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid said today. Quote, "If Senator McConnell cannot convince Senator Paul, his fellow Kentuckian, who he endorsed for president, to back off his filibuster threat, then Mitch McConnell will have no one to blame but himself for allowing crucial security tools to expire on his watch."

Is he right?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't know if I would necessarily blame him for this. Rand Paul is a guy that has been about this issue and been very consistent. If there's anything to admire about him is that he doesn't flip-flop on these types of issues, even when he's taking the heat. He doesn't make deals. I'm sure he could be in a much bigger position in the Senate if he was willing to play the game with others. And he will not back down from this.

But the same time, I do think this is a little bit extreme from him to claim that others help the rise of ISIS in the GOP. I think this is going to end up being one of those days and issues that may actually hurt his real chances at the White House more than any other issue because, yeah, he may have a core base that loves him for this, but ultimately I think the American people are going to decide, I don't trust him on national security because of what he did on this issue.

HARLOW: He wrote an op-ed in "Time" saying, "I'm not an isolationist. We will be strong on foreign policy when we need to be." At the same time, he's going says he's going to call it like it is, how he sees it playing out.

FERGUSON: Yeah --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: But Marc, to you. The "Wall Street Journal" hated it that he said that. In their op-ed, they wrote, "Republicans who begin their campaigns assailing other Republicans rarely succeed. Ronald Reagan's 11th commandment was thou shalt not criticize another Republican."

What do you make of this strategy?

(LAUGHTER)

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: First of all, Ronald Reagan said that but he was winning at the time. Everybody says that when they are winning.

I disagree with Ben's assertion that this isn't a reflection of McConnell. If this were Harry Reid right now and some rogue Democratic Senators were saying something that people didn't like, they would say it was a question of leadership. Now suddenly, everyone is an individualist when it happens on the Republican side of the aisle. I find that curious.

At the same time, I agree with Ben. I think Rand Paul should be applauded for his principle. Too often in the Congress, on the Democratic side and the Republican side, people concede their values for what's politically expedient. Especially when running for president. How many times have we seen Hillary Clinton or Chris Christie change positions on something significant because they want to be president? That's troublesome. I do think it's problematic for people to say that Rand Paul somehow

is compromising American national security. I also think it's also problematic for Rand Paul to say anyone who disagrees with him is helping ISIS. That kind of language, for me, is very dangerous. It's divisive and it doesn't get us anywhere.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: -- Ben, Rand Paul telling a crowd on Chicago's south side this week that he favors reclassifying nonviolent felonies as misdemeanors, granting second chances for felons to regain the right to vote. Does that sound like a Republican presidential candidate to you? Is that a good strategy?

FERGUSON: No, and that's part of his strategy, which is weird to me. He doesn't want to look or be like anyone else in this field. He feels like that is what is going to make him stand out from the crowd.

HARLOW: Why is that weird?

FERGUSON: It's weird because you can have these ideas, but at some point when you're an elected official, you have to look at the reality. Whether it be dealing with ISIS or al Qaeda or dealing with drugs and offenses that are felonies right now, and he sit there is and he's like I will never change on any of these issues, when sometimes I got to wonder does he really believe this or is it more about the issue of I'm this Mr. Independent and I will never change who I am.

(CROSSTALK)

[17:35:04] FERGUSON: And I think it's going to do him in this campaign, I really do.

LAMONT HILL: I think it's kind of tough to applaud him on the one hand for being steadfast and not compromising in his opinion and, on the other hand, saying this guy won't change his mind. I think on some level we have to accept this is who he is. What makes him look bizarre to us is he's one of the few politicians that's actually being honest. He's actually saying what he wants, saying what he believes and trying to execute it. And this --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Marc, I'm not so sure --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Guys, I got to leave it there. We'll talk more after the break.

A quick break. We'll be back in a moment. We'll talk about the race for the Republican presidential nomination. So far, it has been nasty. But when a new candidate joined the Democratic side, how did that go down? Will it stay polite? We'll talk about it, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: And then there were three. Former Maryland Governor Martin O'Malley announcing today he will join Hillary Clinton and Senator Bernie Sanders in the Democratic race for president. Hillary Clinton tweeting shortly after O'Malley's announcement, "Welcome to the race, Governor O'Malley, looking forward to discussing strong families and communities."

Let's talk about this with CNN political commentators, Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson. They are back.

Marc, we were just talking before the break about how --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: What?

LAMONT HILL: Can I just say, you know you don't have a chance of winning an election when your opponent welcomes you into the race on Twitter.

(LAUGHTER)

[17:40:01] LAMONT HILL: That's a sign Martin O'Malley hasn't got a chance.

(LAUGHTER)

HARLOW: Come on --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: I hope you're teaching that in your classes in college, right?

HARLOW: This is just plain --

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: Don't play nice, right.

HARLOW: On a serious note, you're looking at this weird relationship, because you've got O'Malley, who stumped for Clinton in 2008, who was singing her praises. You've got the Clintons, who helped raise money for Martin O'Malley. What you make of what that does to really giving a formidable competitor to Hillary Clinton, Ben, in this primary?

FERGUSON: Look, I think the more the merrier. Honestly, if you're a Hillary Clinton supporter, you want her to have someone to fight with in the primaries, so she is battle ready for the Republican nominee and for all the Republicans that are going to come after her. I think the worst case scenario would have been to coast into this and not be tested and not have to deal with the answer as many questions. If these candidates are smart, they are going to go after her every single day to force her to engage them as legitimate candidates for the White House. I think this is going to be very interesting to see how it plays out. You're dealing with someone who is being very much underestimated. Former governors, they know how to play ball. This will be something that will be fun to watch.

HARLOW: I do think it hasn't been all Kumbaya and cordial because -- you heard in his announcement speech today, Marc, he said, look, you can't pass the presidency on from family to family. He came at Hillary Clinton on Wall Street. He talked about how Wall Street really likes Hillary Clinton. He talked about sort of the income gap. It seems like he tried to take her on in that way.

LAMONT HILL: First of all, I think that having other candidates in a primary is important. I didn't want to see a coronation for Hillary Clinton at all. I don't think anyone does on either side of the aisle, except the most staunch Hillary supporters. I think Sanders raises interesting questions. I think Bernie is actually a very strong candidate, probably not the one who will win, but a strong candidate --

(LAUGHTER)

-- minus his policies on the Middle East. Bernie is somebody dragging Hillary into the conversation we wanted her to have on income inequality. For the Clinton's, somebody like Bernie Sanders, still makes her look clean because he doesn't win. With O'Malley, he's more complicated because he's a governor. He has executive experience. He can raise domestic policy issues. He can raise issues that can concern people about Hillary Clinton that won't stop her from winning the primary, but will drag into the general and maybe make people say, hey, wait a minute, this is a person we want to be president. O'Malley could hurt her.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Yeah.

FERGUSON: You have got two-on-one. You have got two campaigns that are really going to be working side by side without shaking hands to go after Hillary Clinton to try to weaken her as a candidate because, ultimately, neither of them are going to be successful unless they can both land knockout punches on policy against Hillary Clinton. And I think it will be interesting to see where they attack her and how. But I promise you this. Both of their campaigns will be willing to team up, whether it be on money or even issues like Benghazi, because, right now, neither of them have a shot at this unless they weaken her on policy issues.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: And I think she's going to have to engage them.

HARLOW: Here's, Marc, how I think Bernie Sanders, who you brought up, Vermont Senator, really could change the game. Even if he doesn't have the name recognition, even if he does not have the polling numbers, what he does have is that growing chorus of people talking about income inequality. What he does have is the ability to pull her further to the left. I wonder how you think that affects her appeal in a potential general election.

LAMONT HILL: See, I don't think you get pulled to the left if people read the candidate as legitimate. Mitt Romney didn't get pulled to the right because of Ron Paul. Barack Obama didn't get pulled to the left because of Dennis Kucinich or Al Sharpton. It doesn't mean you don't have to have the conversations on stage. When it gets to nuts- and-bolts public policy, I don't think a critique of Hillary Clinton's policy is going to be compelling to the average voter, even though it should be, because Sanders raises it. And I love Bernie Sanders. He's right on this issue. I just don't think the American public responds to him. I think Martin O'Malley brings some legitimacy even if he doesn't bring the votes or the name recognition that will actually force her to have the conversation.

FERGUSON: And here's one other thing. Historical anecdote. Remember when Hillary Clinton was in this exact same situation when she ran last time and then there was this Senator that wasn't very well known but gave a great speech once named Barack Obama? She's been in this situation before and didn't do very well when it came down to the end game. So if I'm her campaign right now, I'm very concerned about the people that are jumping in because last time when she was overwhelmingly in the lead, she couldn't get it done and she got beat up.

HARLOW: Guys, good conversation as always. Thanks, Marc, Ben.

FERGUSON: Thanks, Poppy.

[17:44:54] HARLOW: Coming up next, there's one issue candidates cannot stop talking about on the campaign trail. It is your money. The growing income gap and why some people make so much more than others. We'll talk about it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN O'MALLEY, (D), FORMER MARYLAND GOVERNOR & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are allowing our land of opportunity to become a land of inequality. Main Street struggles while Wall Street soars. Tell me how it is, tell me how it is that not a single Wall Street CEO was convicted of a crime related to the 2009 economic melt down?

(APPLAUSE)

Not a single one.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HARLOW: In tonight's "American Opportunity" discussion, the wage gap in this country. Democratic presidential candidates, like Martin O'Malley, who you just heard from, and Senator Bernie Sanders, who launched his own presidential bid, are both talking a lot about it. Here's what Senator Bernie Sanders said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I), VERMONT & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Now have more income and wealth inequality than any other major country on earth and the gap between the very rich and everyone else is growing wider and wider. The issue of wealth and income inequality is the great moral issue of our time. It is the great economic issue of our time. It is the great political issue of our time. And we will address it.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:50:05] HARLOW: Sanders is pushing for a $15-an-hour federal minimum wage. Republicans are also talking about the wealth gap. Presidential candidate, Senator Marco Rubio, argues the focus should not be so much on the wage gap but rather on long-term job potential. Earlier in the year, he said, quote, "The issue is not whether the cashier at Burger King makes less than the CEO. The issue is whether that cashier gets stuck being a cashier in five, 10, 15 or 20 years."

In Kansas City, these are some of the photos on display as part of an exhibit showcasing the lives of fast-food workers. The workers themselves took the photos. Many of them are among the growing chorus calling for a $15 an hour minimum wage.

Billionaire investor, Warren Buffett, though, says that is not the answer. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARREN BUFFETT, CEO, BERKSHIRE HATHAWAY: Now, I'd like to see everybody make $20 an hour at minimum. But I know if you increase it to $20 an hour, you'd have millions of people unemployed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That's the debate, jobs and wages.

Let's get a reality check on the pros and cons of a $15 minimum wage.

Tami Luhby, "CNN Money" senior writer, joins us.

Tami, thank you for being here.

You're great at breaking this down. There's a lot of politics and partisan bickering around this. What are the pros, what are the cons about a $15 an hour minimum wage?

TAMI LUHBY, SENIOR WRITER, CNN MONEY: Right, Poppy. This is an age- old argument. You've got both sides, the people on the pro side saying that you need to raise the minimum wage. It will give people a base. Right now many people making minimum wage are in poverty. If raise it to $15 an hour, they end up making about $10,000 above poverty if they work full time. That's one important thing. Also, there are a lot of people making minimum wage who are in their 30s. It's no longer a job for teenage kids who are looking for high school or after-school jobs. So they're supporting their families on this low minimum wage. So they also one of the important things is that many studies show that if you give more money to lower income people, they plow it back into the economy. Those are all the pros.

But on the con side, you have people saying, as war even buffet said, that people could end up losing their job. Oakland raised its minimum wage to $12. 25 and an anti-increase group did a study there and it showed that 47 percent of businesses said they were either going to lay people off or reduce their hours. And another 47 percent said that they were going to have to raise their prices on customers. And some even said that they might relocate outside of Oakland. So you've got to weigh those two things.

HARLOW: You do. You do. And, look, Los Angeles just voted, the city council, to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour by 20. This includes restaurant workers. This is across the board, and this is happening. And this is such an important debate for so many Americans right now. "CNN Money" is launching an "American Opportunity" page on Monday. Why are you guys doing it, and what can we expect from this?

LUHBY: Well, as Bernie Sanders said, this is one of the top important topics of our time. You're going to hear all of the candidates for the next 18 months talking about it. So we felt it was really important for us to bring -- we've been doing great coverage on this topic for several years, and they felt it was important to bring it all into one place. So if you want to know about this topic, come to our "American Opportunities" page at "CNN Money."

You know, the problem is, as Marco Rubio said, some people who say that it's not so much, you know, what social well fare programs or raising the minimum wage but it's an issue of opportunity. The American dream has always been no matter where you are on the ladder you can climb up the ladder if you work hard. And a lot of people don't believe that's true anymore, and that's a fundamental breakdown in our society.

HARLOW: Yeah. President Obama calling it recently the great sorting. I think the great question is, what is the right answer. How do you maximize employment while paying people a living wage and not lose the jobs to technology or other countries.

Tami, thank you so much.

We'll look out for it, "American Opportunity" on "CNN Money," starting Monday morning. As we said, it will document the struggles and the successes of trying to make it in America.

More news right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) [17:58:02] UNIDENTIFIED CNN HERO: Art has the power to let children discover who they are. Every child needs the space for them to create.

When I moved to New York City, I noticed that art education was lacking. I decided we need to be the ones to put this in the hands of kids.

We opened art classes in public libraries that are near the schools that need it most.

You look like you're on a roll.

UNIDENTIFIED BOY: I'm drawing a fox.

UNIDENTIFIED CNN HERO: Our goal is not to create artists. Our goal is to let kids express themselves.

UNIDENTIFIED BOY: I use art as an escape.

UNIDENTIFIED CNN HERO: You can see where you can take it, right?

Art can bring more into our lives. You can feel more confident. The changes are quite remarkable.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[18:00:03] HARLOW: Vote for the "CNN Hero of the Year" at CNNheroes.com.

I'm Poppy Harlow. Thanks so much for being with me.

"SMERCONISH" is next.