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Cries of Help from Inside Capsized Ship; Bruce Jenner's Transformation into Woman Highlights Transgenders; Shakeup at TSA; American Killed by Lion at South African Park. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired June 02, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00] CHRISTINE DENNISON, EXPEDITION SPECIALIST & DIVING RESCUE EXPERT: I think those that may be trapped might have had some time depending where they were, cabin cabins, what level. And again, I think that they're just looking to be able to hear some sounds of life so they can try and get divers into these areas.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: There are pictures, you can see, of the rescuers kneeling on the upturned hull of the ship, presumably knocking, hoping for knocks back, signs of life --

(CROSSTALK)

DENNISON: That will resonate. They're using hammers, something that will resonate. If people hear it, they'll know someone's out there. Maybe if they get a sound back, they'll be able to decipher how far they are, how close they are and get deciphers into areas that I can imagine are very difficult.

BALDWIN: Here's the thing, echoing similar to the "Costa Concordia," and the ferry and -- again, you have the captain. Here it was captain and first mates survived, right. And you hear the old adage the captain goes down with the ships. That an archaic notion? If they can get out, they get out when they can, or should they have remained behind?

DENNISON: I think when it happens rapidly, it would depend. I would like to think this, there's the tradition of the captain goes down with the ship. But I like to think of them surviving because of where they were on the ship at that time. And again, we don't know yet. It is odd that they seem to be the first ones out possibly. I don't know. I think it's tragic. Time will tell us. It could be that they were in the right place at the right time. And there was an opportunity, and there was nothing more they could do. They can't swim back in and try and get people out. They should be helping people that were in an area where they could get out, push them toward something that would help save their life. Again, I think this will just sort comfort to light in the next few days.

BALDWIN: Christine Dennison, thank you very much for joining me.

DENNISON: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Next on CNN, imagine being a woman and telling your family, you know what, I'm a man. What do I do next? Similar to the story of Caitlyn Jenner. Our next guest faced that agonizing moment. We'll ask what it was like and where he is today.

Plus, the head of the TSA out. Agents out. Missing explosives, not detecting weapons in this overwhelming number of tests, 95 percent of the time. How does the agency fix that and keep all of us -- many of us hop on planes. How does it keep us safe?

You're watching CNN. Stay with here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:36:54] BALDWIN: Caitlyn Jenner's life-changing moment was very public and apparently cathartic, not just for her but many across the country. It is for people like Jenner, struggling to be comfortable in their own skin, and those who struggle with understanding and accepting what it means to be transgender.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Oh, my god. I have to tell him --

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: No.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Yes!

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Allie's crazy.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Tell me what?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Dad is a woman.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Does mom know?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Of course, I know that! You think I'm a dummy? It's his thing. It's his private kink. Everyone has one. Right, Rabbi?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I guess everyone has, you know, one or two.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That's a clip from "Transparent."

Joining me is transgender actor and comedian from Amazon's Golden Globe Award-winning series, "Transparent," a show that puts transgender in the mainstream. I have Ian Harvey with me.

Ian, welcome, welcome, welcome.

IAN HARVEY, COMEDIAN & ACTOR: Thank you very much, Brooke. I'm glad to be here.

BALDWIN: So you and this show of yours, you've put all of these issue in the spotlight, the mainstream. Now you have Bruce, now Caitlyn Jenner, on the cover of "Vanity Fair." How significant is this moment, this photo? HARVEY: It's incredible. It's such a gorgeous moment in time where

we get to see ourselves represented on the cover of such an iconic media publication such as "Vanity Fair." That's something that's stunning that Jenner was invited to do that and to come out that way. I thought that was beautiful. She looks like her. And when we get to see ourselves in the media, we get to feel like we exist. Especially when there's positive representations of trans people. That's something that has historically rarely been done. So when we get to see positive trans portrayals, we feel like we exist, and that can be lifesaving. To people in the middle of the country, people all over the world that are seeing this like, oh, you know, I actually -- I am like that, too, and they can maybe say that with a little about more safety. I think that that's done through storytelling. Like on "Transparent."

BALDWIN: Like your show.

HARVEY: Yes. And I say -- on my show, but I'm on the show. It's everybody's show. But you know, Caitlyn is telling her story. And her story is inarguable. It's her story.

BALDWIN: Tell your story.

HARVEY: Moira and the -- my story --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: You transitioned seven years ago. When you came to your family and said, I'm a man, what do I do next. What did becoming a man mean for you?

HARVEY: For me -- I came out to my parents 13 years ago. And I wrote them a letter and basically told them my story. They knew me, I was their child. I wanted to write a letter that was my story. From early childhood to present day, how I felt in my body, how I felt in my body and relationships to other people and my struggle to that. Then when I -- I actually left with them on Easter.

(LAUGHTER)

And I --

(CROSSTALK)

[14:40:18] BALDWIN: Happy Easter, guys.

HARVEY: Yeah. Jesus has risen, I'm trans.

(LAUGHTER)

So for me, I thought -- I thought I don't want to put them on the spot. It was my own personal way to tell them to just give them a letter, tell them -- as if I was telling somebody else's story but telling my own. And about two weeks after that, we started talking. Not put them on the spot, let them -- and my parents just love me no matter what. They're that family. I do have that gift of that family that just loves me no matter what. What happened after that, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. What decisions did I want to make. We're all different about what we want to do and what we want for ourselves. Some of us just need to name it. That's all we need in order to say who we are. Some of us need more than that in order to be who we are. For me, I needed partial medical transition, I needed hormones. I needed to look like this on the outside in order to feel better on the inside.

BALDWIN: And here are you so many years later, successful, standup -- I of practically crying in my office watching stuff. This is where we're getting an education, some of us, when it comes to, say, pronounce and discussing stories. Even when you read the "Vanity Fair" piece about Caitlyn Jenner, the writer, Buzz Bissinger (ph), talks about how he's screwing up the pronouns. Even Caitlyn refers to herself as a he at some point. So we're all learning. Can you help us -- what's correct? How do we address this?

HARVEY: Well, really the safe evidence way -- when you don't know, the safest thing to do is call somebody they. It's the safest way to avoid messing it up. If are you really worried, genuinely concerned and want to be earnest, say they until they tell you what they want. That's a safe place to be, sort of -- it's a middle ground for people who don't know. But it's OK to ask people what their pronoun is. And if -- the other thing is as a trans person, I feel like it's my obligation that my family, my friends, and people in my world are also in transition. I need to have a little bit of flexibility with them messing it up. That's something I offer to people in my direct contact. It's something I feel like I want to do for them. They are being earnest and trying. It is very rare that someone says it -- says the wrong pronoun intentionally.

BALDWIN: Right. Right.

(CROSSTALK)

HARVEY: I have friends who have transitioned -- sorry.

BALDWIN: No, no. I appreciate your flexibility. And I think all of us do, as well.

Let me throw this at you because Peggy Drexler, she's this famous psychologist, she works specifically with gender issues. She wrote this opinion piece for CNN.com. I wanted to get your response. Basically, she's saying, you know, listen, the transgender community has fought for many years to have its story heard. What does it say that so many people now are talking about this and paying attention because of Bruce, now Caitlyn Jenner, that it took a celebrity for us to pay attention. And might I add, she argues a celebrity who has the resources to be able to transition and the money and spotlight. Not everyone has that.

HARVEY: I agree that that is true. Jenner does have financial privilege. In a lot of ways that many, many transpeople living below poverty levels do not have access to medical care, to health care, to medically transition if they need to. It's not want to, it's a need. I do think that that is something that absolutely needs to be talked about even more than, you know, Jenner's transition.

But at the same time, I do have to say that Jenner is stepping out and giving up all of their male privilege. They will have to deal with things they never had to deal with before as a woman. People will say things like, come on, honey, smile, why aren't you smiling? Or get cat called on the street. She'll have to worry about her safety walking down the street. There's things that -- she's already being deconstruct good, whether she is woman enough by just on her appearance alone. She will have to watch her weight. She will have to watch what she eats. She will have -- there's all of these things that -- just that I personally as a transman do not have to contend with, that I extend into this, I have this instant privilege that people think -- I don't know, I should be paid more. There's just all of these things that she is actually giving up, that other transwomen have experienced forever. So --

(CROSSTALK)

[14:45:19] BALDWIN: But I have to say it is fun to be a woman, too, sometimes. I will argue on that end, as well.

I'm kidding. I'm half kidding with you. Ian Harvey, I know you know, and you know Caitlyn Jenner will learn, so many people.

And thank you very much for coming on and being part of the national conversation that we're having in the wake of this. Thank you so much for joining me here on CNN.

HARVEY: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks very much.

BALDWIN: One of the questions we're asking, is this America's transgender moment? Read more at our Impact Your World website, CNN.com/impact.

Next, we're talking about fallout at the TSA. The shakeup at the top of the agency just a day after the damning internal test revealed a stunning failure rate to stop banned items like explosives and weapons. Where does the TSA go from here? How does this affect us going through the airports?

Also, an update on our breaking news out of Boston. Police expecting a conference soon after the shooting death this morning of a man who officials say was under terror surveillance. We'll bring that to you live. Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:50:55] BALDWIN: A major shakeup at the Transportation Security Administration, TSA, after its major failing at screening bombs. Acting instructor, Melvin Carraway, is now out as leader, replaced by his deputy, Mark Hatfield. This is happening after Homeland Security found TSA agents failed to detect explosive, weapons, and banned items in 67 out of 70 tests performed across the country. Do the math. That is 95 percent of the time.

With me now, former air marshal, Jonathan Gillium. First, when you hear that, 95 percent of the time, were you surprised

by that honestly?

JONATHAN GILLIUM, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT & AIR MARSHAL: Well, I'm pretty surprised. What I'm surprised at is that the people that are in charge, that continuously are appointed into these positions are just not the right people to be picking other people to go down and provide the right policies in order to pick out and find these explosives.

BALDWIN: You point to the leadership as the issue?

GILLIUM: It's always a trickle down effect when it comes to government work. Like in the SEAL teams where, I was, the FBI, when you have the ground workers designing the operation from the bottom up. It's an effective operation. We think things through, we look at contingencies and we plan for the mission. When it comes from the top down -- Jeh Johnson, I think he should resign from this. I mean, this I think directly affects --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Didn't think it was that big a deal.

GILLIUM: It directly affects on his ability to choose the right people for the job. That's what his position is as the director.

And when you look at Jeh Johnson's career, he's an attorney. And we see this a lot in government. Attorneys being appointed to positions where they're head of a security agency, where they're -- they are chosen to pick the right people to go out and set these standards, to constantly evaluate these things and keep the American public safe. If they're not --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: This goes way before -- I mean, I don't know how long these tests have been going on in the window. But listen, when -- we've been walking through airports, really since 9/11 when everything's changed. Slowly but surely, we're removing shoes, belts, no water, breast milk, this and that. So, I mean, it's like you mean to tell me this whole time or -- most recently, I could have just not done any of that and it wouldn't have mattered? As somebody who flies a lot, I'm ticked.

GILLIUM: Right. I'm ticked, as well. And what really bothers me is there's so many people out there that are qualified to be looking at this and saying this needs to be done or this needs to be done, effective operators that have spent 20 years planning military and law enforcement operations. Those are the people that should be in charge. And those are the people that should be in charge of the people that are, you know, in the rank structure. That's what I don't understand about this. The TSA was born -- I was there in 2002, I got out of the SEAL teams and went straight to the air marshals, looking for the fight. We just never found it. And the way it was put together was so political that, from that point forward, it's just set itself up for this disaster. And I think it's time that we throttle back, we look at the whole aspects of security because even -- Brooke, even if they fix this, in 100 percent of the things that went through were caught, last year, we had at least half a dozen people jump over fences. Some of them actually make it into the wheel well of a plane.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: We've talked about it. We covered it.

GILLIUM: -- the tarmac.

BALDWIN: But those are two different things. One thing is those who work at airport and how it they're able to get around and get into -- I know.

GILLIUM: It's all encompassed.

BALDWIN: I'm thinking about all of us who fly on planes. This is not OK.

GILLIUM: Right.

BALDWIN: Jonathan Gillium, thank you very much.

GILLIUM: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Next on CNN, an American goes on a safari in South Africa. She is in a vehicle with a tour operator, somehow is still attacked and killed by a lion. How could this happen?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:58:24] BALDWIN: A lot of you would love to go on safari or have been on safari. Imagine this in South Africa. An American woman riding through the lion park, she was clawed to death by a lioness. Witnesses say they tried to stop it, honking for her to roll up her window.

CNN's Diane Magnay took a night ride through the popular Johannesburg attraction. She has more for us -- Diana?

DIANA MAGNAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, this is the stuff of nightmares. A trip to one of Johannesburg's, South Africa's most famous tourist destinations, the lion park, gone horribly wrong for one American tourist. She was 22-years-old, who was driving through the lion enclosure with a local South African tour operation. They were driving themselves. There are signs around the national park saying when you're driving, you must keep the doors locked and the windows closed at all times. But according to eyewitnesses, the two had their windows wide open and were photographing a group of lions. There were eyewitnesses around the vehicle who were apparently honking their horns to try and warn this women that there was a lioness approaching around the corner of the car. Apparently, she then, from a seated position, put her paws up on the window frame and clawed the woman to death. The South African tour operator is now in hospital. He has injuries to his arm. We're also hearing from a source that one of these leaflets, which the

park hands out, was in the passenger seat, and it says, "Please be aware that wild animals by nature are dangerous. Keep your windows closed and doors locked at all times." A simple mistake to make but one with very, very tragic consequences.

The park says that it is reviewing its practices but the system is flawless if you follow the rules -- Brooke?