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Tamir Rice Case Handed Over to Prosecutors; Divers Race to Rescue Survivors in Sunken Ship; Interview With Texas Congressman Randy Weber. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired June 03, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:05]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: So, the story she's alluding to was written by David Sanger over at "The New York Times." And they have been tweeting back and forth, back and forth.

Have you been following this Twitter ping-pong? What do you make of this whole Twitter spat?

REP. RANDY WEBER (R), TEXAS: Well, we're seeing the stories. We have not been following it, all of it back and forth.

But I will tell you this, Brooke. Once Iran has learned how to make a nuclear weapon, you cannot, for lack of a better term, unlearn them, untrain them. So they have the technology. They have the know-how. And with their stockpile of fuel growing, and nobody argues that, with the stockpile of fuel growing, that puts them dangerously closer to a nuclear weapon on a time frame.

How much longer do we want to give them to keep moving toward a nuclear weapon? And we would argue none, in fact, especially when they're holding Americans hostage.

BALDWIN: Congressman Randy Weber, thank you so much for taking the time today. And we're thinking about those families here at home. I know they want their loved ones back. Thank you.

WEBER: You bet. Our prayers are with them. Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes, sir.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: Top of the hour. You're watching CNN, breaking news. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Major developments in a story that brings together really two of the biggest storylines thus far this year, terrorism and police shootings. This dragnet now widens in a terror case that's left one suspect dead in Boston. Now a second suspect has been arrested. And David Wright is supposed to be in federal court right now.

We may also learn at this upcoming hearing how Wright, who was arrested just Tuesday, knew the man who was killed at this scene here earlier that morning the same day. His brother says police shot 26- year-old Usaama Rahim in the back, but today leaders of both the black and the Muslim communities there in Boston seem to support much of the version of events as told to us by police and FBI.

The police commissioner in Boston says Rahim came at officers with a large knife. A Boston officer and an FBI agent fired, killing Rahim. And in a show of transparency, 24 hours later basically, authorities showed this video of this confrontation from this sort of distant surveillance video to these leaders in these different communities in Boston.

And one of those Boston area leaders, Yusufi Vali , spoke with me just last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YUSUFI VALI, ISLAMIC SOCIETY OF BOSTON CULTURAL CENTER: I think today was a terrific step.

So, here's what we saw. Number one, it was not at a bus stop. Number two, the -- Mr. Rahim was advancing at one point towards the officers. And, number three, he was not shot in the back. The video is from a distance, and so everything else is fairly inconclusive.

BALDWIN: Could you see the weapon? Could you see him holding this, as authorities describe, this large military-style knife, approaching law enforcement?

VALI: You know, myself, unfortunately, because the video is from quite a distance, I could not see it. And most of the leaders in the room could not see that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go to CNN justice correspondent Pamela Brown. She's in Boston outside of where this hearing will be taking place with this second suspect.

Do we know, Pam, how this suspect knew the man who was killed, knew Usaama Rahim?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: We're hoping to learn more, Brooke, of course, when he appears in court. We know from the U.S. attorney's office here that the documents, they haven't been filed yet.

There's still a lot of questions about what his relationship was to the suspect who was killed yesterday. But I'm being told from law enforcement sources that this relationship between the two was more than just an online relationship. There was more to it. And, of course, there is a third person law enforcement is looking at that we have learned has not been arrested.

And authorities raided his home last night. We're learning a little bit more about the concern among law enforcement. We know that the suspect who was killed, he had been under 24/7 surveillance by law enforcement. They were very concerned about him and we're being told that he had discussed several plots.

One, according to my colleague Deb Feyerick, included beheadings. The other, they talked about attacking police officers. But my colleagues Deb Feyerick and Evan Perez say that it didn't appear that there was any viable plot that they were about to do or anything operational.

But I will tell you, from talking to law enforcement officials, they were concerned about the suspect that was killed yesterday, and the fact that he was under 24/7 surveillance really tells you something. They didn't know what would trigger him at any moment. That's what we're being told. And, again, hoping to learn more about who David Wright is and what his relationship specifically was with the suspect who was killed -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Hold on quickly, Pamela, because I'm listening to you and I'm jotting down notes. So, potentially plotting to attack police, no operational plot, and you mentioned the beheading. Beheading of whom?

[15:05:00]

BROWN: We don't know.

But what we're being told and what my colleagues Evan Perez and Deb Feyerick are being told, that it doesn't appear that there was a specific viable plot to behead police officers, but that they had talked about beheadings and that, separately, it talks about another plot to attack police officers.

BALDWIN: Got it.

BROWN: But I think that's key, that, at this point, we're being told from law enforcement officials that there wasn't anything operational, but that they were very concerned about the suspect who was killed and about his associate, David Wright. So, we are hoping to learn more about what exactly was in the works, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Got it. Pamela Brown, thank you so much. We will keep in close contact with you as this hearing is about to get under way.

Let's broaden out the discussion. Let me bring in CNN political commentator Buck Sexton, who is also a former CIA counterterrorism analyst. Also with me, retired Lieutenant Colonel Scott Mann, who was with the Army Special Forces.

So, gentlemen, welcome to both of you.

And, Buck, let me just begin with you here. Just listening to Pamela, really the headline that jumped out at me, we knew that there were an interest, apparently, a plot to target police officers or perhaps government officials and also reports that he, the man who was killed, and the other two associates were radicalized by ISIS or other extremist elements. Listening to these different threads, how do you read that?

BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Based upon similar cases we have seen in the past, I think the assumption here would be that there was some radicalization that occurred online. And we know that ISIS has put out a call -- this was earlier in the year -- to attack...

BALDWIN: They did, to attack officers.

SEXTON: To attack police, specifically.

So, they're -- ISIS is saying, pick your own target. Don't wait for us to tell you. If you want to take part in your own personal jihad here on American soil or anywhere in the world, you can do that. Attack cops, attack law enforcement personnel and military and government personnel.

So, that's already out there. That's an official command from the Islamic State to essentially franchise this out. Now, on the issue of the surveillance and the operational nature of this or where it was on that scale, the fact they have them under 24/7 surveillance tells you...

BALDWIN: Yes, 24/7 surveillance.

SEXTON: This is rare. This is unusual. This would only happen if law enforcement personnel -- true when I was at the NYPD Intelligence Division as well -- if it was an imminent threat, a very serious threat, if they were worried about a transition from just ideological jihadization into an operational phase. They're actually engaging in an attack.

BALDWIN: Yes.

SEXTON: Now, these officers may not have had a warning of exactly when it was going to happen beyond the date of Tuesday, but we're talking about somebody who's saying he wants to behead police. He has a large knife on him. And if he wants to actually take that next step, there's not a lot of plotting that has to go into this. If he decides to attack an officer with that knife, we could have a fatality on our hands, so that's why they stepped in.

BALDWIN: We have a little bit -- let me just play some sound. Police radio traffic shows that they knew something obviously could happen as they were approaching this man yesterday morning. This is a conversation between an officer and dispatch. Roll it.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you have those units know to be aware that if they can just stay just short of the Burger King and keep an eye on the bus stop that's right in front of the CVS sign, if our subject is making his way here now, we're going to take him right at that spot, when we need them to come up for backup.

It will be a plainclothes unit, about four of us, taking a black male right in front of that bus stop.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, Buck, just staying with you, when they're saying we're thinking about taking him, presumably meaning taking, arresting. SEXTON: That would be the assumption.

They also, of course, could just go up and speak to the individual. Law enforcement is allowed to do that.

BALDWIN: Question him.

SEXTON: They can say, look, we want to talk to you. This happens a lot in counter-radicalization efforts, right, where they know that somebody has said things that are concerning on social media.

But I would guess that here they have -- we don't know what the charges are yet. But they could have performed an arrest right then and there. And, by the way, 20 feet away, if you don't have your weapons drawn and somebody has an edged weapon, you're within the danger zone. That's a lethal situation for law enforcement.

He can get that knife and attack before a lot of people would be able to draw their firearm.

BALDWIN: Colonel, to you. I was reading some of your thoughts. And I know as we have been reporting on a number of Westerners, most of them are quite young, inspired by the ISIS brand, for example.

And so you were saying that there is a growing body of evidence showing Westerners breaking with their home societies to wage jihad against perceived threats to their faith. What do you mean by that?

LT. COL. SCOTT MANN (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Yes, I mean, this is something -- Brooke, it's good to see -- that I have talked a lot about in my book "Game Changers," which is we don't pay a lot of attention to the strategic narrative and the story that ISIS and other extremist groups are telling people around the world, particularly young folks who are struggling with honor and identity.

They're able to tie this narrative to young folks and really mobilize them to do their bidding in ways that don't require a lot of training. I mean, look at the reporter a few minutes ago talked about them being close to operational. With this kind of attack, it doesn't take much to get operational.

And a well-told story that mobilizes folks online to strike out is becoming more and more common. And I think we're going to see more of it right here in the U.S.

BALDWIN: What about, Buck -- let me circle back to you just on the notion that not even 24 hours later, police and FBI showed the surveillance video to members of the black and Muslim communities in Boston just for the sake of transparency. That was quick.

SEXTON: I think that what we see here is law enforcement recognizing that there's a messaging that needs to happen when there's a fatal incident involving anyone and police, that they shouldn't allow false narratives to get out there and they shouldn't allow people to think that this was some sort of an execution, shot in the back.

[15:10:10]

The facts need to get out quickly because it can take a lot more time to dispel a false narrative if it's allowed to sort of germinate in the early stages.

BALDWIN: Colonel Mann, you said that both the Bush and Obama administrations have really failed to change the perceptions of America from, what, elsewhere in the world, specifically, what, Middle East?

MANN: Well, I just -- watching this war and participating in it for the last 14 years, my sense has been that we really failed to acknowledge and deal with our enemy strategically and with the narrative and the strategic aim points that they have out there.

We have tried to come out at it top down. We haven't worked bottom up in the tribal and clan societies. And I think we ignore at our peril, Brooke, we really ignore this issue of narrative and how these extremist groups are able to tell a story around the world that mobilizes people to action.

And now we're starting to move on beyond these spectacular attacks, and you're starting to see folks with a little bit of inspiration self-select to go after police officers, after military members, and again all of this is designed to draw us deeper into the fight. So we have got to start paying attention to this. And, no, neither administration has paid enough attention to narrative and story like they need to.

BALDWIN: Buck, bigger question, and I know you don't have all the answers, but what's one way to counter that?

SEXTON: Well, a way to counter this is just to obviously try to make sure that the voices within the Islamic world who are decrying jihad and who are speaking about how this radicalization happens and the reasons why, it is in fact outside of the faith, and it's a bastardization of the faith. Those are voices that we need to hold up and say, look, this is...

BALDWIN: Do the young people care? Do they get that? This is pretty darn effective.

(CROSSTALK)

SEXTON: Not all of them. I mean, radicalization has been going on for a long time.

BALDWIN: Yes.

SEXTON: Lone wolf attacks are nothing new. You're not going to have perfect security. You're not going to have perfect counter- radicalization efforts. But they need to continue on, because, otherwise, I think we will see more of these.

The frequency of these attacks with the Islamic State, with its clarion call around the world, specifically to attack the West and America, we will see more of these things. And it's very corrosive if you have even a small attack that doesn't have any casualties or fatalities associated with it. There's a distrust, there's a corrosive effect in society that we also want to counter. So, it's just a constant messaging effort.

BALDWIN: Buck Sexton, thank you. Scott Mann, thank you both for your time this afternoon. Appreciate it.

SEXTON: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Still ahead, rescue crews racing all hours of the day, now cutting a whole in this capsized cruise ship desperately trying to rescue anyone who could still be alive. Will it work? We will talk to a rescue diver next.

Also, after decades of falling crime rates in New York City, a look at what's behind the sudden spike in shootings that has some calling for a return of stop and frisk. Would that be the solution?

And chilling words inside this courtroom from James Holmes -- the suspected gunman in the Aurora movie theater shooting, his taped sessions with a psychiatrist played out here in court, also who he called moments before walking into that movie theater. Do not miss this.

You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:17:29]

BALDWIN: Trapped in air pockets beneath the hull of a capsized ship, another survivor pulled from this Chinese ferry, giving some hope to families that hundreds of other passengers could still maybe be alive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I have gone beyond the sadness. I am preparing for the worst, while still holding on to hope.

The one thing I want to do the most is to see my mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, the clock ticking right now, desperate rescue crews cutting a hole in the upturned hull.

Joining me now, Jack Garcia, senior rescue diver with Miami-Dade Fire Rescue's Marine Operations.

Welcome to you. And let's just get to it. You did this for 33 years. The idea of cutting this hole in the ship, can you tell me how they will do that and why and what they're thinking they will find?

JACK GARCIA, FORMER RESCUE DIVER: First of all, thank you for having me on, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Sure.

GARCIA: But, basically what they're trying to do is gain access to areas of the hull that are inaccessible from any other way.

And we have done it on a smaller scale here on vessels that were on fire and effected rescues. But this is what we call in the rescue business a mass casualty incident, which is difficult at best because of the number of people, and the fact that it's underwater or in a capsized situation makes it just that more difficult to do. It's a -- I can't think of anything more dangerous for those rescuers to be doing.

BALDWIN: You know, when you think about the timeline of all of this and the fact, as I mentioned, they actually found a survivor overnight, if someone -- Jack, if someone is alive right now, how is that possible? Because even if you find an air pocket, right, and you cling to that, how long can you possibly survive?

GARCIA: Well, that's just it.

It depends on the size of the air pocket and how many people are breathing up the air in that air pocket and whether the air pocket is being replenished with other air from other areas of the hull that might be finding its way up in there.

There definitely is a window, but that window is closing rapidly. And you have to -- if that were to happen here in the States, we would be racing towards that window and making sure that our efforts continued until we were sure there was no one else alive still in the hull.

BALDWIN: You know, I was talking to someone yesterday. This was before we knew they'd be cutting a hole in the hull. But she was saying that they could raise the ship, pump a bunch of air into the ship, raise it, perhaps help anyone in those air pockets.

[15:20:10]

Do you think that that would be something that could be viable now, and why would that be helpful?

GARCIA: It would be extremely difficult to do. I don't see...

BALDWIN: Why?

GARCIA: It's a huge ship. Because of the number of air bags and stuff that you would need. I could see that maybe happening with a -- with barges and cranes and heavy equipment, but the window is closing very quickly.

And the best chance those people have is to be pulled out by divers and searching the hull. I don't know how many -- how effective the rescue going -- that's going on, how many divers are involved and any of those details, but, in my mind, the quickest way to get those people out there is to go in and get them. BALDWIN: So tragic, because you -- it's mostly elderly on board this

cruise. This was along the river. This was supposed to be just this incredible trip of a lifetime for so many of them.

Jack Garcia, senior rescue diver with Miami-Dade Fire Rescue Marine Operations, thank you so much, sir. I appreciate it.

GARCIA: You're welcome. Thank you.

BALDWIN: When we come back, we have some breaking news now out of Cleveland involving the investigation into the shooting death of Tamir Rice. You remember this video, 12 years of age. He was shot and killed by police while holding a fake gun. Major developments -- after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:48]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: More breaking news on Boston. We have court documents now on the second suspect in this Boston terror case. He's having his court hearing at this very moment.

Deborah Feyerick is all over this.

You have more on David Wright.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

And this is the document, this is the affidavit that they're presenting in court right now during this first appearance by David Wright.

BALDWIN: OK.

FEYERICK: David Wright is being charged essentially with material support and advising the suspect, now dead, Usaama Rahim, to destroy his smartphone and wipe his computer.

But here's what we're now learning from these court documents, specifically that Usaama Rahim purchased three knives from Amazon.com over the last week, that he met with this man, David Wright, and another individual in Rhode Island, at which time they discussed a plot to kill somebody outside of Massachusetts, specifically beheading this unnamed person.

They joked about -- quote -- "thinking with your head on a chest," which the document says suggested the kind of ISIS beheading that we have come to see. Now, on May 27, federal authorities investigated a package from Amazon.com and actually X-rayed that package. They found that there was a large knife inside the box.

On Sunday is when the two men went to Rhode Island. And that's when Usaama Rahim said that he had changed his mind, that he was no longer going to behead this unnamed individual. But, instead, he was going to go after police officers. He was going to kill -- quote -- "the boys in blue."

And that was scheduled, Brooke, to take place either today or tomorrow. And that's when David Wright, very early yesterday morning, told Rahim, wipe your smartphone, don't bring it to the scene where you're going to go, and also destroy the computer. And so that's where we are right now, David Wright expected to be in court to face these allegations against him.

He did waive his Miranda rights, David Wright, and that's how law enforcement was able to get this information, but that he was not going to behead police officers, he was going to go after police officers. Whoever this unnamed individual, he got lucky.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes. Yes, that he had gotten these knives in the last week perhaps sheds a little light on why they suddenly wanted to talk to him.

FEYERICK: Exactly.

BALDWIN: Deborah Feyerick, thank you very much.

FEYERICK: Of course.

BALDWIN: Now breaking news here out Cleveland, Ohio, the investigation into the shooting death of 12-year-old Tamir Rice is complete and is now being handed over the prosecutors in Cuyahoga County.

Tamir Rice was shot and killed by officers while he was holding this pellet gun, this fake gun, last November in a snowy park near his home.

I have got Ryan Young following the breaking developments for me right now.

And, so Ryan, what do we know now?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, a lot of people are holding their breath on this one, especially in Cleveland.

We were just there a week ago. And talking to the folks in the neighborhoods, they wanted to watch this case closely. This investigation was turned over to the sheriff's office in February, so they could do this independent investigation. We know sheriff investigators have been going through all the evidence, watching that videotape that so many people have seen, that reaction when the police car rolls up and then the officer opens fire on the 12-year-old Tamir Rice, who had that pellet gun.

Ultimately, he would die. So many people in Cleveland wondering what would happen with this investigation, so an independent investigation has been conducted by the sheriff's office. Now they have turned that over to the prosecutor. And we believe the prosecutor now will take it to the grand jury. And then those people will decide what will happen next.

So many people in that community are sort of holding their breath. In fact, they have talked about, if this ever happens, in terms of whether or not there will be charges or no charges against the officers, they will try to give community members a heads-up before it happens, so those community leaders can go out and meet with the community beforehand, because, obviously, they're concerned that if it goes one way or another, there could be unrest in the area.

Talking to community leaders just this afternoon, look, they say they knew this process was winding down. Now it's in the hands of the prosecutors there, trying to figure out and anticipate what will happen next.

BALDWIN: Got it. Ryan Young, thank you so much. We're going to stay on this.

Have to sneak in a quick commercial break in. I have got Harry Houck and Marc Lamont Hill standing by. We're going to continue on what could happen now this investigation from the Cuyahoga County's Sheriff's Office is handed over to the prosecutor, what this could mean.

Again, this is one of the biggest stories as far as police shootings in this last year. We will explore it. Stay here.

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