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Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Office in Cleveland Has Now Officially Handed Over Investigation of the Shooting Death of 12-Year- Old Tamir Rice to Prosecutors; Accused Theater Shooter James Holmes Says He Called Mental Health Hotline; Caitlyn Jenner Has New Reality TV Series. Aired 15:30-16:30p ET.

Aired June 03, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:30:00] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Again, this is one of the biggest stories as far as police shootings in this last year.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:34:27] BALDWIN: I want you get back to the breaking news. We have just learned here that the Cuyahoga county sheriff's office in Cleveland has now officially handed over the shooting investigation of the shooting death of 12-year-old Tamir Rice. So it is now sits with the prosecutor. It's up to the prosecutor to determine how to proceed, if he wants to bring charges against these officers. Tamir Rice was shot and killed by Cleveland police officers while holding a fake gun last November in a park near his house.

So let me bring in Harry Houck and Marc Lamont Hill, former NYPD detective and CNN law enforcement analyst and also CNN political commentator and Morehouse College professor.

So gentlemen, just first on Tamir Rice before we pivot to something else. Thoughts on what's happening.

[15:35:06] MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I'm encouraged to see that this had been taken to the prosecutor's office. This has been something that people have talked about even a week ago or two weeks ago when the other Cleveland case is happening. People say that one is a lot fuzzier. That was a lot harder to make sense - right. But when we talk about Tamir Rice, wait a minute. This is a kid, 12 years old, officer shows up, starts shooting very quickly, calls it in as not a 12-year-old but as a 21-year-old or 20-year-old, which makes people think again, do law enforcement agents have difficulty reading the situation when black people are involved? So it's a hot-button issue.

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, I don't think we're going to have an indictment here at all because the officer did act properly, although the fact is their tactics were a little strange. And I didn't agree with their tactics here and how they exactly pulled up to that kid and then jumped out and started firing right away. I think they should have stopped maybe about 50 feet away from him and then tried to find out if he was going to take a shot at them or whatever. But either way, the officer himself perceived the threat when he got

out of the car, he fired the shot. This is one of those thing that when a terrible incident like this happens. I had the same type of incident happen to me with a 15-year-old kid but I didn't shoot him. And I was lucky enough that he had dropped the weapon, and that was a toy also. So, you know, I don't think we're going to see an indictment here at all. And I don't see any civil rights violations against this officer.

BALDWIN: We'll wait to see. We are not in the entire investigation. We don't know. But that's happening. So we'll watch for that when it does.

Meantime, I want to talk about something that we've discussed before. Crime is up. When you look at these numbers, decades of falling crime rates here, suddenly the number of shootings are spiking in this country at nine percent, murders is up almost 20 percent. Here's the mayor of New York.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK: There has been, obviously, an uptick in homicides and shootings. It is something we take very, very seriously. It's something we're addressing right now. We know for sure that the increase in both murders and shootings has occurred in a small number of precincts and has been primarily because of gang and crew-related activities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: It's not just New York. This is happening around the country. Police chief in St. Louis, we talked about this, calling this the Ferguson effect. Others in New York are blaming the mayor for stopping the police practice of stop and frisk.

So that's where I want to begin, Harry, with you. Do you think doing away with stop and frisk then is the precise reason why crime is up in the city?

HOUCK: No, but the first thing is that stop and frisk has not ended at all. The officers were retrained on how to be able to articulate the reasons suspicion to make a stop. So it's still going on. I think, you know, the mayor is talking about he's going to give the police commissioner what he needs, but he's not giving them the 1,000 police officers that he's asking for here. What we're doing is we're putting a temporary patch into some of these precincts where there's a lot of killings going on. Police officers are going to stand out there through the summer maybe, they're going to say, OK, watch the crime come down, all right. And then they're going to pull them out again and it's going to come back up again. We need a constant presence in these precincts for crime to really lower, stay low in this city.

BALDWIN: What do you think, Marc?

HILL: I think a presence is fine, but the presence can't become an occupying force. And that is the distinction we have to make here. That's one of the reasons why it's important to have strong community relations.

I agree with you. It's not just a stop and frisk problem. Stop and frisk also is something that doesn't build healthy community relations. It doesn't make people want to talk to police. It doesn't make people want to cooperate in helping to solve crimes. It doesn't do any of that. So I don't think reinstating stop and frisk is appropriate, even if it were constitutional entirely.

But the other piece here, I think, is figuring out how to get a context where people have access to jobs, health care, housing, healthy choices. If that happens, this crime also goes down.

BALDWIN: But it is important because we've talked over and over, and all the numbers out in "Wall Street Journal" and "Washington Post" over the weekend about how crime is up sort of in many parts of nationwide, but we should be specific because it's not -- the reason why it is, is not the same in each and every city. I mean, people are talking about Baltimore specifically and how in the wake of the riots and demonstrations, you know, you had the CVS, another place was looted, a lot prescription drugs taken and perhaps, people, because of the drugs, is what some experts are saying, that is why part of this crime is spiking in Baltimore. You can't just blanket this whole problem.

HOUCK: No, you can't. Baltimore's had a problem for a long time, all right. But there's been a spike in the crime just like these 11 or 12 different cities we're talking about here. And I personally believe it's because police officers are being handcuffed more than being able to go out there and proactively, you know, work against the criminals in the inner city.

BALDWIN: Do you that's the whole Ferguson effect the people are referring to that may not necessarily --?

HOUCK: No. I don't think that's the whole reason why crime has spiked at all. But I think a lot of the rhetoric out there has empowered the bad guys. You know, the cops aren't going to stop me as much anymore, so maybe I can carry my gun more. And I think that's what's happening.

HILL: I sort of (INAUDIBLE). And I wish cops were handcuffed more when there are unjust killings and shootings. I want to see that in places like Ferguson. I want to see bad cops handcuffed.

HOUCK: Bad cops, yes.

HILL: Exactly. And I don't think that -- first of all, very few police officers are actually tried, convicted, and sentenced for killing civilians. So I don't think there is a scenario --

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: Yes. But Marc, you can't say that every time a police officer kills somebody, you know, a cop has got to go to jail. That's what your inference is here.

[15:40:03] HILL: That's not my implication. Let me tell you what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that I don't buy into the narrative that so many cops are getting arrested now that they're scared to do their job. Cops almost never get arrested and charged is what I'm saying. I'm not saying they all should.

HOUCK: Because they don't do anything wrong. When they do do something wrong, they're arrested.

HILL: You're saying every cop who does something wrong is arrested? That's your honest belief?

HOUCK: I believe so, yes.

HILL: You're telling me every cop in America who's done something wrong has been arrested.

HOUCK: Yes. Well, have they been charged? So you're telling me --

HOUCK: We're just really lucky that the three cops who got caught on tape --

HILL: Police departments are turning their back every time they think a police officer does something wrong. Remember --

HILL: No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying sometimes.

HOUCK: We had dozens and dozens and dozens of cases every year.

HILL: Right. For something to get to that requires someone to report it.

HOUCK: Exactly.

HILL: Right. And police don't report each other.

HOUCK: They do report. Not the police officers themselves.

HILL: Right.

HOUCK: The people will call us, make an allegation, all right. And then internal affairs will investigate it.

HILL: That's absurd.

HOUCK: It happens. I did it a million times.

HILL: I'm not saying that no one ever --

HOUCK: How could it be absurd?

HILL: Well, I'm going to tell you. I'm saying what I'm calling absurd is this idea that every cop has committed a crime or done something wrong has been punished or even investigated for it.

HOUCK: You're making a great leap.

HILL: I'm not making a leap at all.

HOUCK: That there's a lot of cops out there committing crimes not getting caught.

BALDWIN: I don't think he's saying there are a lot of cops out there --

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: There might be some.

HILL: Here's the thing. This year three police officers have been charged -- arrested and charged for killing civilians, right, three. To my knowledge, all three have been on videotape. To accept your logic it would be to suggest that every cop that has committed a crime, we've just been lucky enough to have a tape of. And all the times who haven't been videotaped, just happened to be honest. That's absurd.

HOUCK: So basically, what you are saying that whenever an officer does something wrong out there, all right, that it's not properly investigated and therefore --.

HILL: You're taking what I'm saying and moving it. I'm saying sometimes, not all the time. Sometimes.

HOUCK: You're going to have to give me those examples. I don't have them.

HILL: OK, I'll give you an example. In Charleston, before they found the videotape, they said the officer didn't do anything wrong.

BALDWIN: The police report said one thing. And then we saw the videotape.

HOUCK: That was right off the top.

HILL: You're asking for an example. I'm giving you an example.

HOUCK: And I agreed with that.

HILL: But you only agreed once you saw the videotape, Harry. Before the videotape, you said he didn't do anything wrong.

HOUCK: I did not say that.

HILL: What did to you say?

BALDWIN: Hang on, hang on, hang on. Does he have a point? And this is something we've talk about in some of these cases in which you have so many people take a police report as the God's honest truth, right? And I think because of some of these examples, it's caused, you know, Americans to peel away the layers and think, wait a minute, this may not all be factual. HOUCK: What I always say is we wait for the investigation to be

conducted and completed. That's what I always say when I come on and talk about when a police officer is involved in a situation. And I did in that situation there. And also, the fact that once we saw the video, and I said it straight out this officer should go to jail.

HILL: Once you saw the video. What I'm saying is most people aren't lucky enough to walk around with a video, Harry.

HOUCK: But you must conduct an investigation.

HILL: I agree. So what I am saying --

HOUCK: I mean, I can't tell you how many cases I would love to have on video when I was (INAUDIBLE) too, but I never had it. So I would conduct an investigation.

HILL: So here's the thing. A whole bunch of folks go to jail without being caught committing crimes on tape. Police only seem to go to jail when they get caught on videotape.

HOUCK: Now, that's not true.

HILL: The three times that someone was caught on tape aren't the only three times.

HOUCK: I locked up plenty of police officers when I was in internal affairs where we have no video.

HILL: But you can conceive that there are more than three officers commit a crime, right? You can see that.

HOUCK: Why is that even a question, now?

HILL: Because you just said it wasn't. And it's absurd.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: We got to go. We went from crime going up to this, but I appreciate the putting it all out there, as always.

Marc Lamont Hill and Harry Houck, we'll do this again. Thanks, fellows.

Next on CNN, what we've learned about James Holmes, the phone call he made just before he walked into that movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, and opened fire. Who he called, how long he stayed on that phone before he put the phone down. This is fascinating. This is coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:43:22] BALDWIN: Accused theater shooter James Holmes says he picked up the phone and actually called a mental health crisis hotline moments before he opened fire in that movie theater, killing a dozen people. Holmes says he called while he strapped on body armor and prepped his weapons. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At what point did you call the behavioral health hotline or a hotline of some kind?

JAMES HOLMES, SUSPECT IN AURORA, COLORADO MOVIE THEATER: Like halfway through gearing up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the car then?

HOLMES: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What led you to make that call?

HOLMES: Just one last chance to see if I should turn back or not. I just went to the very front and sat down in one of the chairs then pulled out my phone to make it look like I had a phone call.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry?

HOLMES: Pull the out my phone to make it look like I had a phone call, then went out the exit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now, Gail Saltz, psychiatrist and author of "Anatomy of the Secret Live, the psychology of living a life."

Gail, just to hear that halfway through gearing up, he has the presence of mind, if that's even the accurate way of saying it, to call this hotline. It gets disconnect and so we know the rest of the story. Do you think that could have stopped him?

DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: You know, I don't know if I'd call it presence of mind as much as I call it a reflection of ambivalence, right? That there was still some doubt --

BALDWIN: As to whether he should --

SALTZ: As to whether he should continue doing this or not. And you don't know from what he's saying whether that has to do with guilt, regret, or the knowledge that this is wrong and the wish to be stopped or not or some sort of suffering. In other words, he knows that he is ill. He's said that for a long time. He had talked about his broken lines and all in his diaries. He knows that he's ill. But it seems unclear as he goes into this, in and out of this, how much this is fortified by delusional thought, in other words, why he on the one hand knows he's sick but he's going to do it anyway. And how much it is that he does understand that it's wrong but he feels that he wants to anyway.

[15:50:33] BALDWIN: On the will to stop. Apparently he also talked about how he had regrets when he was speaking with the psychologist (INAUDIBLE) who treated him before the shooting and he has said God, I wished she had put me on lockdown or locked me up. SALTZ: Right. Well, again, is that in retrospect? In other words, I

wouldn't be sitting here responsible for all this, facing all this, I wish that she had locked me up because he is sick and he knows that he's ill versus an actual thought beforehand. Am really ill, I need to be hospitalized. I kind of wish -- I can't do it for myself. But I wish someone would step in.

This is actually not unusual for people who have schizophrenia or serious psychiatric illness to at one level wish that someone could stop them or help them or intervene in some way and on another level, not wanting to be hospitalized, not wanting to take medication. And because they are over 18, someone not being able to do that for them.

BALDWIN: I'm just so mindful as I read all these details of the families who are in the courtroom, some of whom have had to leave, you know. You are allowed to cry but not more than that.

And my final question, hearing him say that he said he had the opportunity to shoot some of the police officers but he didn't want to shoot certain police officers who had their backs to him yet we know what he did.

SALTZ: Right.

BALDWIN: Again, I'm perplexed.

SALTZ: So there's this bizarre separation between empathy for certain situations like shooting someone in the back or shooting children that doesn't seem to fit with what he did overall, which seems to lack empathy, his idea that he also states, you know, it was the numbers of people that I could take out essentially because I felt that somehow they had worth and their worth became mine after I killed them.

So that sounds delusional, right? That sounds to make no sense. I think what you have to look at for this is, yes, he is ill, clearly he is ill. But he knew what he was doing was wrong. And that is where the legal definition becomes separate. And we have to understand, most people that commit crimes like this are not mentally ill. But if you are mentally and you know it's wrong and you commit the crime like this anyway, it's still punishable. You see, it is still - you are still legally-you can be very, very ill and still be legally responsible for committing a crime even though you have illness. The question is, if he was delusional about why he committed this and not understanding it was wrong, that would be due to his mental illness and then like, say a John Hinckley, he should spend his life in a psychiatric facility.

BALDWIN: Right Doctor Gail Saltz, thank you so much for your time.

SALTZ: My pleasure.

BALDWIN: Next, days after her big announcement, Caitlyn Jenner has more news. She's starring in a new reality series. You know about that. But my next guest knows exactly what it's like to be a transgender woman in Hollywood. Her take on all of this in 60 seconds. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:54:23] BALDWIN: Caitlyn Jenner is ready to live and fully document her life as a woman. And now, after the revealing "Vanity Fair" - spread where the reality TV share her transition to millions, a new promo clip from Jenner's much-anticipated reality series called "I am Kate" has been released. Here she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAITLYN JENNER, TRANSGENDER: You go through all the stuff and you start learning, kind of the pressure that women are under all the time about their appearance. Put it this way, I'm the new normal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:54:59] BALDWIN: Joining me now, Erica Irvin who played the role of amazon eve in epic "American horror story freak show," the world's tallest model who came out as transgender 11 years ago.

Eric, awesome, having you on.

ERICA IRVIN, TRANSGENDER: It's Erica Irvin.

BALDWIN: Erica Irvin, that's exactly -- Forgive me, Erica. I know exactly who you are. So I will speak crystal clear. I want to get into your story in just a moment. But first, I want your reaction to the video of Caitlyn Jenner. This is the first time we're hearing from her after reading this very lengthy "Vanity Fair" article.

IRVIN: The first thought that came to my mind was the Wheaties box. And that's when I was a kid, I remember Bruce Jenner as this superman athlete that they promoted as this incredible sports star. And he's now -- or she is now an American icon. What the American public is shocked about is the man is gone, the super is still there.

BALDWIN: The super is still there.

IRVIN: Yes.

BALDWIN: Let me talk about you because I understand when you auditioned for this role, when you auditioned for Amazon Eve and the American Harsh story (ph) series, the show actually called for men to audition, you bound your breast, you dressed as a male but the show creator Ryan Murphy said, no, no, no. We want you to be the woman you are. But, Erica, your family, they weren't quite as receptive. What was that like coming out to them?

IRVIN: Are we talking about American Harsh story or my family?

BALDWIN: Your family, please, ma'am.

IRVIN: OK. My family wasn't as accepting. It was difficult for them. And I have some tension with them right now. And I didn't receive a lot of acceptance from them at first. They told me, do not write, do not call, you're no longer welcome in our home. When I started coming out, when I started revealing who I was to them. And that created --

BALDWIN: And all these years later?

IRVIN: All these years later, I still keep in touch with my brother from time to time. We do communicate. And I have been blessed by having a lot of extended family and friends, some people in this business and some people in Europe. I do travel a lot. And I do have the opportunity and blessed to be a public figure as an actor and an entertainer and have this platform to speak to the public's listening about this coming-out of Caitlyn Jenner. She's a marvelous woman. She's beautiful and what a coming-out, my God. Look at the super there. It's just oozing in super. It's like, bam! She's exhausting to look at.

BALDWIN: Let's talk about your super because I imagine, you know, you definitely turn heads in public for your height and who you are. You're in the spotlight. Caitlyn Jenner is in the spotlight. How hard or what are the challenges for Caitlyn Jenner when she's out and about?

IRVIN: Well, being misgendered, being called "sir," people judge you based on how you look. And being passable and presenting the way Caitlyn is right now. She's going to receive less criticism, less violence. There's this cultural war almost against transgender people. And there's no front line, there's no battlefield. There's nobody to aim at. It's a rescue mission. And when you have someone of the star caliber as Bruce, now Caitlyn Jenner, coming out, it moves the conversation forward, that we are part of you, we come from you. And it costs less to treat this condition than not to. And we have a large gap between where we are and where we need to be. I've seen a lot of great progress in terms -- legislatively moving the conversation for the removal of the health insurance exclusion out of contracts in California, the EEOC including us in the 1964 civil rights act under sex discrimination. And having Bruce Jenner become Caitlyn Jenner, the super is still there. And it's obvious.

BALDWIN: Erica Irvin, thank you so much. Amazon Eve here live on CNN.

IRVIN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Thank you so, so much for your time. I really appreciate it. This is a conversation we've been having every day this week. And it's an important one to have. And it's part of the national dialogue in the wake of Caitlyn Jenner's story. Thank you so much.

IRVIN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me. We'll see you same time, same place tomorrow. In the meantime, to Washington we go. "The LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.

END