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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Terror Watch Suspect Shot; White House Fence-Jumper Sentenced; New Law Stops NSA Storage of Phone Data; Bikers: Mass Arrests A "Gross Overreaction". Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired June 03, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That might be a better problem for us but, you know, we'll - we'll -

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: It will be a better problem for us as well.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A problem for us, but that's a whole other story.

Jay Walk (ph), thanks so much for being with us.

BOLDUAN: Jay, thank you so much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: That's all for us.

BOLDUAN: As the studio starts cracking up.

That's all for us "AT THIS HOUR". LEGAL VIEW with Ashleigh Banfield starts right now.

Oh, John.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

You've heard these worlds a lot of times over the past 10 months and I've said them plenty too, police officers shooting a suspect dead, but this one is different, very different, and the circumstances vastly different. This is not Ferguson. This is not north Charleston. This is not Cleveland. This is Boston. And police in Boston say a man that they've had their eye on for some time now as a possible terrorist came at them waving a big, dangerous knife, and that they had no choice but to open fire.

Today we know the man was 26 years old and under round the clock surveillance by the Joint Terrorism Task Force. They had reason to believe that he'd fallen under the spell of ISIS and was about to start hurting people. Police say they approached the man just to talk to him, and that's when the knife came out.

And what a knife it is. If you can see right there, that black thing, number two, highlighted on your screen. That's the knife. It is not small. The man who was welding it, Usaama Rahim, pulled it out, allegedly lunged at the police. Police say they then shot him dead.

Straight to Boston and Alexandra Field, who is reporting live.

Alexandra, the police officials right now are showing video of this shooting. Apparently body cam video potentially. And they're doing this to members of Boston's Muslim community, leaders of Boston's Muslim community. Can you explain what's happening and why?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. There are surveillance cameras that were in the plaza where the shooting happened just outside of that CVS. That surveillance tape should answer a lot of questions about what went down outside that store.

We know the account from police that the suspect, Usaama Rahim, lunged at them with the knife and that they shot twice, hitting him once in the chest, once in the abdomen, killing the 26-year-old. There has been a conflicting account on Facebook posted by Rahim's brother, a former imam in the Boston area, who says that Rahim was shot three times in the back while talking on the phone to his father and waiting for the bus.

Right now this surveillance video is a key part of the investigation, of course, into Rahim's death. So it's being closely guarded by the district attorney, who still has a big job to do in investigating this death. But in the meantime, what we're seeing here, Ashleigh, are steps from the Boston Police Department and the district attorney to try and show some people this video. What they did is they issued invitations to community leaders, clergy members, faith leaders in the community. They wanted to bring them in, show them the video so that they could get a really clear account of what happened outside that store. They hope that these leaders will be able to share the word of what they saw in that video with the larger community here.

This is an important step. It's, of course, a proactive step. It's an effort toward transparency, toward accountability. And, Ashleigh, frankly, is not unprecedented here. This is something that the DA and the BPD have teamed up to do in the past, showing surveillance video to a select group in another shooting also involving an officer.

We saw community leaders as they walked in. We know that there are about two dozen different people who were brought in to watch that video. They started their meeting with a prayer. They're also joined as they watch that video with the district attorney, Dan Conley, the U.S. attorney from (INAUDIBLE), and the police commission, Bill Evans.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: All right. Alexandra Field is reporting live for us in the filed right now on this story.

And we're also trying to dig into a number of different angles as well, working the phone on just what they might have known about this person and what exactly happened at the time of the shooting. Our law enforcement analyst, Harry Houck, is right here with me. And also national correspondent Deborah Feyerick is with me as well. Deb, I am waiting to hear what the clergy members are able to say, if

anything. I think they might be holding a news conference when they're finally through watching this video that they're being given access too. But in the meantime, what are the sources saying? The headlines that are coming out being retracted about what this person may have been up to and what kind of imminent threat he represented.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: OK, so here's what we know for certain by law enforcement sources and that is, is that there was a threat being investigated against police officers. When he was confronted by members of the Joint Terrorism Task Force, he pulled out a knife. Now, there's a very different story being told by his brother, who says he was actually on his cell phone at the time speaking to his father because he was uncomfortable, needed, in his words, a witness.

One of the reasons, Ashleigh, and this is critical, why they are bringing in the Muslim community is because there has been a partnership between law enforcement in Boston and the community, specifically the Muslim community, after the marathon bombing. They are working in partnership. And law enforcement knows, and they've been very specific about this. James Comey, the director of the FBI saying it even as early as last week, they need people, not only police on the frontlines, but also members of the community because it's those people who, if something is amiss with an individuals, they are going to be the ones who are going to be phoning it in.

[12:05:22] And that's why this is so critical for law enforcement to show members of the Muslim community what this tape suggests. Whether, in fact, he was on the phone talking to his father, as his brother, a prominent imam, alleges, or whether, in fact, he was - he had a knife and was ordered repeatedly to drop it. And that's what that surveillance tape is going to show. And we're expecting to hear both from the FBI chief in Boston, Ben Flese (ph), as well as the Boston Police Commission, Bill Evans, after this is over. They're only going to be talking about the shooting. They're not talking about the second man who is said to be arraigned in federal court later this afternoon.

BANFIELD: Well, I - without question, they'll be able to get phone records very easily -

FEYERICK: Very easily, correct.

BANFIELD: With regard to who might have be on the other end of any alleged phone call he may have been on, as his brother has suggested on social media.

FEYERICK: Yes. Good point.

BANFIELD: Harry, the Joint Terrorism Task Force coming in to talk to him. Those are words I don't typically hear. Joint Terror Task Force member watched from afar.

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Right. Uh-huh.

BANFIELD: They keep themselves hidden. They don't go to canvas someone on a location.

HOUCK: Right. Right. Uh-huh.

BANFIELD: They go to their homes, they go to their businesses and they do those kinds of things only when necessary.

HOUCK: Right. Uh-huh.

BANFIELD: What kind of circumstance do you think might have been at play here because they went right up to him?

HOUCK: I believe they probably aware that there was an imminent threat of a possible attack and that's why they went directly in front of him at the time. And -

BANFIELD: Any other scenario possible?

HOUCK: I can't think of any other scenario, because they'd want to maintain the surveillance on this guy. So the only thing that I could actually think of is basically that there was an attack and it was imminent and they had to confront him.

BANFIELD: Is anyone talking about that word, "imminent"? I've heard it used.

FEYERICK: Well -

BANFIELD: But is anyone flushing it out?

FEYERICK: The words that they're using is information that was alarming. Now, he was recently put under 24/7 surveillance, and it could have been that he identified members of the task force who were following him. He may, for example, have taken sort of defensive or evasive maneuvers and so they felt, we can't let this guy get into the wind because of the information that we do have on him. So there was no intention to arrest him when they walked up to him to question him. There was no arrest warrant. So you have to understand that these are very well trained officers and agents and if they did feel the need to question him, they did it for a reason. This was not sort of some random gesture.

BANFIELD: This was not a casual, can I have your name and your I.D.

HOUCK: Right. No, exactly. This was - this was - especially on the street.

FEYERICK: Yes. Yes.

HOUCK: Allegedly he was at a bus stop and they tried to stop him in an area where there weren't too many people around. So I'm thinking they're assuming there might have been a problem if -

BANFIELD: Just fascinating to note that we have had it cleared that there was an alleged threat to police.

HOUCK: Right. BANFIELD: And that FBI and joint terror members ended up having to intervene, however they did it, at that moment. So I think we're waiting on a lot of information here that will put these pieces together. Maybe we'll be getting them when this news conference is scheduled.

Listen, this is a moving part here, so we're awaiting at any moment those live mics to be fronted by members of the clergy and members of the police. They're holding a joint press conference any moment now after those members of the clergy, prominent members of the Muslim community, have had a chance to review those tapes Alexandra Field told us about, those videos that may just show what exactly happened at the moment that man was shot dead and maybe why he was shot dead.

And when we come back, the government trying to make sure that the guy who jumped the White House fence and just kept going, almost all the way to the Oval Office, by the way with a knife, doesn't end up going anywhere else for quite some time. Find out how long he'll be behind bars. Here's a hint. You're going to be surprised by this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:12:17] BANFIELD: We have a shocking update to last September's fence jumping incident at the White House that cost the head of the Secret Service her job. You may recall that U.S. Army Veteran Omar Gonzalez, carrying a knife, eluded both the Secret Service agents and trained dogs as he made this mad dash across the White House lawn and entered the executive mansion through the front doors, of all places. Only when he was inside, far inside, was he actually stopped.

Federal prosecutors are now asking a judge to send Gonzalez to prison for almost two years, in part because of what you're seeing on your screen. Mind boggling the array of weaponry that was found in his car at the time of this incident.

CNN's senior White House correspondent, Jim Acosta, joins us now with the details.

Jim, when you look at page upon page of photographs that the feds have actually issued -

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right.

BANFIELD: That he had with him, and it's not the first time he's been found with cashes of weapons that are somehow similar.

ACOSTA: Right.

BANFIELD: I don't understand why the recommendation is as low as it is. Can you help me through this?

ACOSTA: I think that's an excellent question, Ashleigh, and there is an answer to that question in this court filing from the U.S. attorney's office in recommending this sentence of 21 months in prison. They do also request that Omar Gonzalez be forced to undergo three years of supervised release. And during that time, they're saying that they want to see this army veteran get treatment for his post-traumatic stress disorder. At one point it says in the filing, Ashleigh, that Omar Gonzalez did not make sufficient efforts to consistently obtain that treatment, so they're asking for the maximum period of supervised release to ensure that he receives that treatment.

And all you have to do is look at those photographs we've been showing on screen. The arsenal of weapons that was found in his vehicle after he was caught jumping the White House fence and entering the White House. So, remember, this was last September. He was inside that White House for a descent period of time. Managed to get past Secret Service agents to really be inside the White House for a disturbing long period of time.

And that has forced a whole host of changes over here at the White House from, you know, a more aggressive use of the White House dogs. You'll recall there was another White House fence jumping incident that followed this one where the dogs were used on that jumper. And then, you know, something as simple as keeping that front door locked at the north portico -

BANFIELD: That's a good idea.

ACOSTA: That was something that wasn't always done.

BANFIELD: That's a great idea. Yes.

ACOSTA: Spikes are going to be added - spikes are going to be added to the White House fence coming up in July as a temporary measure. And, of course, you mentioned that the Secret Service director was scrapped in favor of Joe Clancy, the new Secret Service director.

[12:15:07] BANFIELD: Yes.

ACOSTA: So, this had a lot of consequences across the board at the Secret Service and in terms of security here at the White House, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Well, Jim, I think locking the front door is a good first step, without question.

ACOSTA: Always.

BANFIELD: I would have assumed - yes, I do it. I'm sure you do as well. Go figure.

ACOSTA: I do.

BANFIELD: Have been doing it for a long time. Jim Acosta at the White House, thank you for that.

ACOSTA: You bet.

BANFIELD: So, by the way, what is perhaps most astounding is that that's not the first time either that that man had been caught with loads and loads of weapons. I have just whole bunches of photographs of other stops where he's had cashes of weapons, 2013, 2014, another incident in 2014 and then, of course, there was this incident at the White House. So, there you have it, that's the recommendation. We'll see if it sticks. We'll see what happens next.

Meantime, the NSA is back in the snooping business today, not that it ever really was out of it, but the newly signed USA Freedom Act sets up some major restrictions that would have been unthinkable just a few years ago. We're going to show you what's out, what' sin, what's changed, what stayed exactly the same.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: After two days in limbo the National Security Agency is back doing what it has always done, just a couple of tweaks though that we want to mention. The United States of America Freedom Act, signed by President Obama, restores three important NSA surveillance programs that just had expired on Sunday night. Two of them were renewed without any changes, the so-called roving wire tapes that monitors those suspects who frequently change out cell phones, and then the ability to track that lone wolf, those folks who are not affiliated with any known terror group.

[12:20:18] But section 215, Google it, the wholesale collection of phone records. That thing has changed. It's been tamped down considerably. The brand new law, instead, gives the NSA six months to figure out a band new machine, a brand new process for leaving those records with the phone companies, allowing the government access only when they get special court orders through that fancy thing called the FISA court. Supporters of the brand new law say that this seems to balance our civil liberties in this country, the civil liberties of law abiding Americans, with the need to investigate terror suspects, who may or may not be law abiding.

I want to bring in CNN legal analyst and defense attorney Danny Cevallos, and criminal defense attorney Heather Hansen.

So, Heather, your take overall on how much has really changed.

HEATHER HANSEN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: With regard to the NSA, it's a really good start, Ashleigh. Now they have to get some sort of a court order, it is still by the FIFA court, which is a court that doesn't have a lot of oversight. There aren't a lot of people looking at what they do. But there are so many other ways in which the - I mean we saw yesterday that news about the airplanes that had the ability to collect cell phone data. So there's so many other ways that they're getting our cell phone information that it's almost like Wack- a-Mole. With regard to this mole, the law has definitely gotten better.

BANFIELD: Well, and it sounds like we sort of do have to keep up with Jones - the Jones of electronics and technology as well.

HANSEN: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: But in the meantime, you know, Danny, the government is not hog tied here in terms of trying to get the information that it was mega collecting before. They just need to have some kind of probably cause and have a nice judge sign off on it.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, that's always been the situation. So make no mistake about it, the government can still get access to this data, they just need to get a court order. And it's not impossible to get that information. You know, there's a shift in who holds the information. Now it shifts away from the government and into the phone companies. But that data is still reachable. It just means, for the most part, the government has to jump through more hoops to get it.

BANFIELD: More work. OK, so you say, FISA, I say FISA. And up until now, FISA's been sort of this crazy, secretive, black hole where I've always been frustrated that we don't have access to it, understanding fully that we don't always have access to that kind of work. That's changed.

HANSEN: It has changed in an enormous way. There's two different ways in which it's changed. One is that there's going to be a party of five people who are now going to be arguing for privacy in certain cases. There's still a lot of discretion as to which cases these people are going to be able to advocate for our privacy. But that's new. The other thing that's knew is that their decisions are going to be publicized for the most part and, again, there's some discretion there. But those two things are enormous changes because for the first time we get to see what it is they do.

BANFIELD: And 15 years it used to be for those material support charges we report on all the time, somebody gets, you know, charged with material support for terrorism, it used to be 15, now 20. Is that a good deal?

CEVALLOS: Yes. New penalties, I mean that's a good thing because you want - once you find who the terrorists are, I guess you want them to be punished more severely. But going back to what Heather said, I mean this court thing is fascinating because in our entire history the idea behind court procedures is that they were open.

BANFIELD: Yes.

CEVALLOS: And this is a notable exception. It will be fascinating to see what that court opinions hold.

BANFIELD: Some of them are selective, though, so don't expect to have complete transparency.

HANSEN: (INAUDIBLE) them all.

BANFIELD: It sounds like Pollyanna, but they're still going to have some selectivity in terms of blacking things out. So, thanks, guys, appreciate it.

HANSEN: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Danny and Heather.

In other news, two and a half weeks after the biker gang shootout in Waco, more than 150 of those bikers are still cooling their heels in a jail cell, mainly because they just were there and because they haven't also come up with that $100,000 bail that was leveed on them. We're going to hear from some of the folks who just happen to be able to scrape up that kind of money and what they think about the charges that they were facing and that their friends are facing. Might be surprised what they have to say.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:27:48] BANFIELD: A few of those bikers who were arrested after that deadly shootout in Waco, Texas, last month are now out of jail and they are not remaining silent. They're accusing the authorities of, quote, "gross overreaction," end quote. They're saying it because basically more than 170 suspects were locked up, the vast majority of whom are still locked up and facing some extraordinarily serious charges and a sky high bail. Our Ed Lavender looked into it and reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This epic bounty of mug shots tells the story of a wild Texas shootout, nine people killed, 177 motorcycle riders arrested after the rampage at the Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco. Police rounded up the bikers, charged them with organized criminal activity and set bounds at a staggering $1 million. One of those arrested was Matt Clendennen.

MATT CLENDENNEN, ARRESTED BIKER (voice-over): It's been horrible.

LAVANDERA: We spoke with him by phone as he sat in jail more than two weeks later.

CLENDENNEN: I committed no crime. I did nothing wrong. I just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

LAVANDERA: The next day Clendennen walked out of jail.

LAVANDERA (on camera): Matt.

CLENDENNEN (on camera): I'm Matt.

LAVANDERA: Hey, Matt. Ed.

CLENDENNEN: Nice to meet you.

LAVANDERA: Good to meet you.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): He and at least 15 other bikers had the bonds reduced and have been quietly released from jail in the last few days. But the stories Clendennen and some other bikers tell us raise serious questions about why they were arrested. Many bikers are calling the mass arrest a "gross overreaction" by the police.

CLENDENNEN: I don't think they knew what to do. I think they were in - completely clueless as to what to do. I'm one of the first ones to get out. There's still a hundred - over - you know, well over 150 people in there. You know, how long are they going to be here. How many of those guys don't have the ability to post these outrageous bonds, you know, so that they can go back to work and providing for their family. I had to post $100,000 bond to get out of here and it's just outrageous. You know there's - there's - there's families that are suffering.

LAVANDERA: He's not the only one. William and Morgan English got out on bond this week too. The couple says they were innocent bystanders.

MORGAN ENGLISH, ARRESTED BIKER: I couldn't understand in my head, what did I do wrong? What did we do wrong? Why - why were we being held like this? Why is there a million dollar bond? Why am I saying I'm a hard core criminal? It's just - none of it made sense.

[12:30:08] LAVANDERA: Matt Clendennen says he belongs to a biker club called the Scimitars. He says he was sitting with biker friends, unarmed, when an argument