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Terror Suspect Wanted to Behead Activist; FBI Needs Help Fighting ISIS Recruitment; Duggar Scandal: Family Speaks Out on Molestation Claims. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired June 04, 2015 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[09:00:00] CUOMO: Right? With what's happening with my baby?

CAMEROTA: I would have loved that. I needed that.

CUOMO: They get much needed peace of mind.

CAMEROTA: I needed that one. My babies, that's great. So happy. Thank you for telling us.

Time now for "NEWSROOM" with Carol Costello.

Good morning, Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks so much. Have a great day.

NEWSROOM starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Happening now in the NEWSROOM, a planned beheading stopped in its tracks. The target? The outspoken activist behind a Mohammed cartoon contest.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They mean to kill everyone who doesn't do their bidding and abide by their law voluntarily.

COSTELLO: This morning new details about the suspect and the weapons he ordered off Amazon.

Also, the Duggars stand up for their son after admitting he improperly touched young girls.

MICHELLE DUGGAR, MOTHER, "19 KIDS AND COUNTING": One of our children made some really bad choices, and I think as a parent we were just devastated.

COSTELLO: Why didn't they go to the cops earlier?

Plus, the GOP field gets even more crowded.

GOV. RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A lot of candidates will say the right things. We need a president who has done the right thing.

COSTELLO: Rick Perry throws his hat into the ring. Will voters give him a second chance?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think America is really seeing what a promising person he can be.

COSTELLO: Let's talk. Live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

We're learning chilling new details about a gruesome terrorism plot foiled by police. Here's what we know this morning.

Usaamah Rahim who police say was radicalized by ISIS and killed after lunging at officials with a combat knife, wanted to behead controversial conservative commentator Pamela Geller. Rahim, who was under constant surveillance, changed his plans just hours before he was killed. His new target, "the boys in blue," a reference to law enforcement.

Now this man, 25-year-old David Wright, who police say is an associate, is facing terror related charges. And for the first time, we're also hearing from Pamela Geller, the target of that initial plan. Geller recently made headlines herself after she organized a controversial Prophet Mohammed cartoon contest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA GELLER, TARGET OF BEHEADING PLOT: Drawing a carton, an innocuous cartoon, warrants chopping my head off? That's too far. I just don't understand this. They're going to come for you, too, Chris. They're coming for everybody. And the media should be standing with me, particularly in light of Foley, the media should -- should have understood that by kowtowing and submitting to Islamic law, that is what you are doing.

But people need to understand the jihadic doctrine and that it is coming for you, and mainstream Muslims should be standing with me shoulder to shoulder in defense of free speech.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right. For more on the investigation, Alexandra Field is live in Boston.

Tell us more, Alexandra.

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, Carol. That big question about why police intervened in front of the CVS has finally been answered. At first, authorities said that they had noted changes in the behavior of the man that they had been following 24 hours a day, but court documents now reveal that his plans had also changed. Authorities say that not only had he switched targets, he had accelerated the timetable. They say that he had planned an attack that would have unfolded on Tuesday or Wednesday of this week. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD (voice-over): The original plot was allegedly sinister and gruesome according to law enforcement officials. The FBI believes Boston terror suspect, Usaamah Rahim's original plan was to behead Pamela Geller, a controversial activist and conservative blogger.

According to an FBI affidavit, 26-year-old Rahim purchases this Marine fighting knife on Amazon on May 25th. The following day, on the 26th, he allegedly makes a phone call to 25-year-old David Wright. Wright is now being charged with destroying evidence on Rahim's smartphone. The FBI says Rahim told his nephew about the knife over the phone and that Wright later responded with a reference, investigators say, to terrorist beheadings.

The next day on May 27th, the FBI intercepts the Amazon package, x- rays it and finds the knife and the knife sharpener, but then abruptly this week, on Tuesday, the FBI says Rahim calls his nephew, saying he's changing the plan because he can't wait that long. Instead he's going to go after the "boys in blue," and Rahim reveals his plan to randomly kill police officers in Massachusetts on Tuesday or Wednesday.

This supposed escalation, investigators say, is what prompted them to approach Rahim at the shopping center Tuesday morning.

COMMISSIONER WILLIAM EVANS, BOSTON POLICE: That video clearly shows these four or five officers backtracking away from the suspect as he is coming at them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[09:05:02] FIELD: This morning, we are learning more about Usaamah Rahim. We know that he spent a year of high school in Saudi Arabia before graduating from high school here in Brooklyn, Massachusetts and then heading off to college in Florida. A former guidance counselor remembers him as a bright student. We know that back in the area he had some work in security, and beyond that, Carol, I was able to speak two imams at a mosque that he had attended with some degree of regularity.

They say that they knew him since he was a young boy. They describe his family as having been a -- being devout. They say that he was observant but to their recollection never expressed any thinking that they considered radical or extreme -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Alexandra Field, reporting live from Boston this morning.

Now after Rahim was shot and killed by police, his brother, a well- known imam, posted on social media that authorities had shot Rahim in the back. According to clergy members who were invited by police to view surveillance video, that's not what happened.

My next guest was one of the clergy members in that room, Reverend Mark Scott joins me now live from Boston.

Welcome, sir.

REV. MARK SCOTT, ASSOCIATE PASTOR, AZUSA CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY: Good morning. Thank you.

COSTELLO: Thanks for being here. First of all, can you describe what you saw on that video?

SCOTT: Well, the video displays very -- actually clearly it answers the question of was he shot in the back or was he shot in the front. And when you watch the video, what you see is that the officers in a fairly calm way are walking towards him, and then he comes back towards them, the officers begin to back up in a crouching position. They appear to call for support from two other officers who are there with them. And as he approaches them they fire and you see him go down. The video makes it very clear that he was shot in the front and not shot in the back.

COSTELLO: Did you see the knife?

SCOTT: The video camera is some distance -- it's a parking lot, and so the video camera is coming across the parking lot, there is some distance, it was raining that morning, so what you can see are the figures. You can't see the weapon itself, the knife itself, but you can see that he is approaching the officers.

COSTELLO: You were in that room with people and clergy from the Muslim community and others from the African-American community.

SCOTT: Yes.

COSTELLO: What were -- what was their reaction to watching this video?

SCOTT: So one of the things that was important about this conversation is that the police commissioner, as has been his habit now when these things happen in our community, reached out to Christian ministers. He also reached out to the Muslim community. Also present was the U.S. attorney, the FBI, and the district attorney, and so what we're in the habit of doing here in Boston when these things happened, is talking to one another and trying to talk about one another.

And so the Muslim community, when I first heard about it, I reached out to my colleagues in the Muslim community, and their feeling was one of surprise, one of shock, one of grief. And they are struggling to understand what has happened here, why it has happened and how we're going to be able to talk with one another to move forward beyond it. But I would say that the community is grieving itself, and certainly we feel for the mother who is grieving, and they are working very hard to support that mother who has lost a son.

COSTELLO: Reverend, I don't know if you got a chance to watch Chris Cuomo's interview with Pamela Geller because supposedly she was the initial target. This man wanted -- Rahim wanted to behead her. What do you make of that? SCOTT: Well, the idea of beheading someone or attacking someone, or

physical assault of someone, for them exercising their free speech rights, is clearly wrong. This though does speak to -- we need to have a deeper understanding of one another. Why is it that it's important for the Islamic community not to have a physical depiction of the Prophet Mohammed? We should be talking with one another to understand why that is.

That's where the dialogue needs to go. And we want to avoid, even though we have the right to do it, certainly we have the free speech right to do it, but taunting one another, egging one another on, really we're facing a very serious challenge in our city and across the country and around the world. And if we're going to solve it, we've got to do a better job of trying to understand one another, and engaging in some dialogue so that we're able to use our free speech rights for good things.

COSTELLO: I'm getting that you don't think Pamela Geller is actually doing that. She also said in the interview that this, quote, "a showdown for American freedom." That's why she held this Prophet Mohammed contest. That was the reason.

Do you believe that? Do you believe that what she's doing is a showdown for American freedom?

[09:10:05] SCOTT: No. We need to use our freedom and our free speech rights to build community. That's the purpose of freedom. There's a responsibility. With freedom comes responsibility. And so we have to use our freedom in ways that are responsible, and there is a very rich diverse vibrant Muslim community here in Boston, and we need to get to know each other and we don't do that by poking sticks in each other's eyes.

COSTELLO: Reverend Mark Scott, thanks for your insight. I appreciate it.

SCOTT: Thank you.

COSTELLO: The FBI is scrambling to keep up with ISIS' new social media strategy of creating direct contact with Americans. Just look at how effective that strategy can be. 2,000 core ISIS supporters push out a message, some 50,000 then re-tweeted, leading to more than 200,000 people reading that particular message.

Deborah Feyerick is following that part of the story for us this morning.

Good morning.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning there, Carol. I know this has become a very big problem for law enforcement because ISIS doesn't care who it reaches, they are throwing a very broad net to try to catch anybody who might be converted to their ideology and carry out an attack.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) FEYERICK (voice-over): In Boston, an alleged plot to attack police officers by a man suspected of being a homegrown extremist is part of what national security officials describe as a surge in U.S.-based ISIS sympathizers. A surge driven by Twitter and social media, say law enforcement, making the threat of attacks more and more likely.

JOHN CARLIN, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR NATIONAL SECURITY: There are thousands and thousands of messages being put out into the ether sphere and they're just hoping that they land on an individual who's susceptible to that type of terrorist propaganda.

FEYERICK: The U.S. estimates there are 180 Americans who have joined or tried to join terror groups overseas, and now ISIS' strategy is evolving. Not only is the terror group using social media to recruit and inspire, national security officials say they are also using social media to make direct contact with people like Garland, Texas, terror suspect, Elton Simpson, shot dead during a plot to open fire on anti-Muslim cartoon event.

CARLIN: Once they identify an individual, they'll then try to directly communicate with that individual to give them coaching and guidance on how to do an attack inside the United States.

FEYERICK: The FBI is using more resources tracking potential suspects. Boston terror suspect, Usaamah Rahim, had recently been put under 24/7 surveillance by a joint terrorism task force because of information police called alarming. FBI Director James Comey says ISIS recruitment efforts are becoming increasingly difficult to detect due to encrypted communication.

JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: We're working around it every single day but I can't stand here with any high confidence when I confront a world that's increasingly dark to me and tell you that I've got it all covered.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK: And the outreach, Carol, is really global because they are not only putting their messages out in English but they're putting them out in French and in German, and they're just trying to find those sort of lone wolf attacks or people who can communicate with each other to do these kinds of assaults. It's all about terror.

COSTELLO: Deborah Feyerick, many thanks.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the Duggar family defending their actions as son Josh confessed molestation. Plus more than a month after the looting of pharmacies, Baltimore finds itself awash in stolen drugs and desperate for help.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:17:48] COSTELLO: The Duggar family is breaking its silence, speaking out about their oldest son's Josh's molestation of his own sister and a babysitter. And what Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar called their, quote, "parents". Last night, the two sat down with FOX News, trying to explain their actions when their son confessed to touching four of his sisters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM BOB DUGGAR, FFATHER OF JOSH DUGGAR: He said he was curious about girls, and he touched them over their clothes while they were sleeping. They didn't know they have done it. And so, we went. The first thing was to protect the girls. And so we went in --

MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS: The girls all sleep together?

J.B. DUGGAR: Yes, the girls had two bedrooms at the time. But --

KELLY: How many girls are we talking about?

J.B. DUGGAR: We had five girls at the time.

KELLY: OK.

J.B. DUGGAR: And so anyway, he went in and said he had done this. And so, we, first off, of course, really talked to him and then we went and talked to all the girls and children.

MICHELLE DUGGAR, MOTHER OF JOSH DUGGAR: It was so important for us as parents to talk to our girls and make sure that nothing else had happened. And so, one by one, as we talked with them, none of them were aware of Josh's wrongdoings.

KELLY: So, they learned about it from you?

M. DUGGAR: Yes.

J.B. DUGGAR: Yes.

KELLY: How -- at that point, he said he had done this to how many of the girls?

J.B. DUGGAR: That was the two.

KELLY: But neither had any recollection?

J.B. DUGGAR: They did not know.

KELLY: And what was their reaction when they learned it from you?

J.B. DUGGAR: They didn't -- they really didn't know. What happened was, we asked them at first if anything happened, and then it was after some other things happened that we actually shared with them, and we actually -- but we took a lot of steps.

First, we tried to deal with this in house as parents. We were in shock and we were trying to figure out what was the next step. Really, looking back, we did the best we could under the circumstances.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COSTELLO: Now, part of their plan involved a stern talking to by a police officer, and sending Josh away to do construction work as rehabilitation for a couple of months.

Let's talk about this. We are joined by HLN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson, and Gail Saltz, she's a psychologist and psychoanalyst and the author of "Anatomy of a Secret Life: The Psychology of Living a Lie".

[09:20:02] Welcome to both of you.

DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHOLOGIST: Thank you.

JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Good morning.

So, Dr. Gail, did the Duggars sound like reasonable parents to you?

SALTZ: I think to many parents, they will sound like reasonable parents because they obviously deeply cared. They were deeply upset. They tried to do things to correct the situation, if you will.

So, I think there was a lot of -- I think it's heartfelt. There was a lot of reasonableness on their part.

Unfortunately, I think they also said things that viewers need to understand may not be the best thing to do. So, for instance, counselor is a meaningless term. It does not mean a professional who is experienced in the area of treating children and adolescents who are having an issue like this, and I think that viewers need to understand, is it a psychologist, is it a psychiatrist? What is the degree? A license --

COSTELLO: They called it a Christian counselor.

SALTZ: Right. OK. And so, for religious counseling purposes, that may be great, but for understanding what is motivating a behavior that is defiant, that is oppositional, when your parents had told you, you do not do this and you understand that it's wrong, that is a desire to do it to somebody so much younger than you, and I think defining 15 versus 16 for being, you know, an interest in somebody much younger than you is very arbitrary and protective on the parents' part, in their minds, but not true.

So, I think all those things matter and people need to understand what defines getting professional help in a way -- because a counselor who has no degree of particular sort of experience in this area can hurt more than help.

COSTELLO: What I found interesting, the Duggars kept saying what happened to their daughters was a mistake.

JACKSON: Right.

COSTELLO: So, you are in the field of law, was it a mistake? JACKSON: Well, listen, Carol, just talking about the statute itself,

if you look at the statute, that is the law in Arkansas and other jurisdictions, it defines sexual assault as contact for the purpose of sexual gratification. And so, if someone is touching someone else in various areas as there appears to have been here, then certainly it would have been a violation of the statute. Obviously, based on how it was reported, Carol, it exceeded the three-year statute of limitation for which he could have been prosecuted and that never happened.

COSTELLO: So, how do most families deal with this?

JACKSON: Well, interestingly enough, the first thing is, is that going back to the law, Carol, what I found very interesting was that there are over 30 -- about 36 mandatory reporters in Arkansas, and it varies by jurisdiction in terms of who are the mandatory reporters, and parents are not mandatory reporters. And so, you have a household that's full of children and interestingly enough, the statute talks about force to parents, but not parents themselves in terms of being reporters, law enforcement officials, judges, prosecutors, mental facilities personnel --

COSTELLO: Wait a minute. So, that means your child can go out and rape somebody and you don't have to report the rape?

JACKSON: You have no affirmative obligation to report as a parent and so, that's really a statutory issue in terms of whether or not the legislature behind this wants to change the law to hold parents accountable and force them to go other places other than the clergy --

COSTELLO: Let me ask you this question --

SALTZ: Those reporters are pediatricians, emergency room physicians and that's often where it comes into the system and should come into the system.

COSTELLO: I do want to talk to the girls themselves, because they appeared later on in the show and they're going to be on Friday. They say they have forgiven their brother, right? The thing is the Duggars say they didn't know they had been touched inappropriately because they were asleep, but in a police report, it says one time the touching happened in the laundry room, and another time happened when one of the girls was sitting on Josh's lap, which says to me that they weren't asleep.

So, are the Duggars characterizing it the right away? And what do you make of that?

SALTZ: Well, I -- what I make of it is that any parent that loves all of their children would want to minimize things as much as possible to spare all of them the pain, and they may not do that consciously. You know, unconsciously, like they didn't really get it or understand.

It's also partially true. They may not have understood what was happening to them at the time. They were little kids. So, it's an understandable thing to do, but when you are trying to

teach your child to protect themselves, it's better not to do that, right? That's how children end up being abused because they don't exactly understand or they want to deny that something terrible is happening to them, so they minimize it.

And when you are trying to teach children -- I think that's what we can all gain from this. We should stay away from the young ladies now, but in protecting your children in general, you need to be up front about what constitutes this.

JACKSON: And one last point in terms of protection is the issue of how these records actually got out, to the extent that they're sealed, juvenile records. And I think the only reasonable way to conclude, if there is a reasonable way, that the chief police consulted the county attorney.

I looked at the statute. It says that they're sealed and they cannot be released if you are arrested, if you were detained, or if there were proceedings consistent with juvenile proceedings.

[09:25:01] Now, to be fair, you could read that very broadly. And to the extent that this could have gone to juvenile court, it could be read as they should be released. But I think their reading of it was, hey, it doesn't fall within any of these required exceptions. So, as a result of that, they released them. Whether that will fly, that's another issue.

COSTELLO: The Duggars are taking issue with that. So, we'll see what happens.

JACKSON: Absolutely.

COSTELLO: Thanks to both of you. I appreciate it, Joey Jackson and Dr. Gail Saltz.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM: Jeb Bush finally announces -- well, not exactly yet, but he will announce soon, I promise you. We'll tell you the date.

And today is the date for Rick Perry. He's just a few hours away from formerly announcing his second bid for the White House.

CNN's Sara Murray is in Texas.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: That's right, Carol. We're in Addison, Texas, right now, where Rick Perry will try to make his mark in an increasingly crowded GOP field. We'll tell you exactly how he plans to do that, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)