Return to Transcripts main page
Dr. Drew
Duggars Speak Out. Aired 21:00-22:00p ET.
Aired June 04, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, the Duggars get defensive. Michelle and Jim Bob admit their son molested four of his siblings blaming though
everyone but the molester. Hear from his two sisters who were the abused children and from a church insider who says none of this surprises him.
It all starts right at the Top of the Feed.
Two weeks after the Josh Duggar sex scandal emerged -- became public, parents Jim Bob and Michelle gave an interview to FOX News and here we will
share with you now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER OF JOSH DUGGAR: Our son, Josh, came to us on his own and he was crying and he had just turned 14 and he had said he had
actually improperly touched some of our daughters.
MICHELL DUGGAR, MOTHER OF JOSH DUGGAR: As parents, we felt we`re failures. One of our children made a really bad choices.
J. DUGGAR: He said he was just curious about girls, and he had gone in and just basically touched them over their clothes while they were sleeping.
They didn`t even know he had done it.
This was not rape or anything like that. This was like touching somebody over their clothes. There were a couple incidents where he touched them
under their clothes, but it was like a few seconds.
As parents you`re not mandatory reporters.
M. DUGGAR: As parents, we were trying to do the best thing we knew how to help this one and protect these.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, Erica America, radio host and psychotherapist. Loni Combs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents
Tell". Mike Catherwood, My Loveline and KABC 790K Radio co-host.
All right, Mike, the timeline of the scandal, you`ve got.
MIKE CATHERWOOD, RADIO CO-HOST: Yeah.
PINSKY: Give us the highlights.
CATHERWOOD: It all really starts in March 2002. Josh confesses to Jim Bob that he fondled the breast and genitals of his sleeping sisters up to four
to five times. And July.
PINSKY: Did you notice when he bring that up to the interview and Megyn FOX -- Megyn Kelly brings it up. They say, "Well, they were sleeping, they
didn`t remember what happened."
LONI COMBS, ATTORNEY: Yeah. And they kept saying.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: So why? I want to use this as defense now. If somebody gets raped because they`re so intoxicated, they don`t wake up, it just didn`t
happen.
COMBS: Exactly. And that`s kind of what they were saying here is because the victims were young, they didn`t know it was going on and it wasn`t that
bad.
PINSKY: And they were asleep. Yeah.
ERICA AMERICA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Not only it was really not that bad, they were saying it basically didn`t happen.
PINSKY: It didn`t happen.
AMERICA: There was such tremendous denial with these two parents. It was insane. And not only do they not want -- I feel that they didn`t want them
to get better, they wanted it to go away. That`s what they wanted.
PINSKY: Of course, they wanted it to go away but they won`t have.
CATHERWOOD: Well, that`s -- I mean, if you look at the timeline, it does look that way. In July that same year, 2002, he confessed to touching a
sister who was sleeping on the couch and he got punished.
PINSKY: Whatever that is.
CATHERWOOD: Whatever that means, exactly. In 2003, the parents were told about the time he allegedly molested a sister while sitting on his lap and
putting his hand under his sister`s dress, and in that same year, Jim Bob and church elders decide Josh needs counseling.
Jim Bob tells the police Josh had Christina counseling, and then Josh comes back and gets a very stern talking to -- from a state trooper who is now in
prison for 56 years because of child porn.
PINSKY: Fantastic. Fantastic. And the guy that ran the school system, the home schooling system, the ATI, we`ll talk about it later, he was
accused of molestation or.
CATHERWOOD: Sexual harassment.
PINSKY: Sexual harassment. The sisters, the victims, Josh`s sister, Jessa defended him on FOX News. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSA (DUGGAR) SEEWALD, 19 KIDS AND COUNTING: I do want to speak up in his defense against people who are calling him a child molester or a pedophile
or a rapist, some people are saying. I`m like, "That is so overboard and a lie really." I mean people get mad at me for saying that, but I`m like, I
can say this, you know, I was one of the victims.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes. I was kidnapped and I was held against my will and those were good people who kidnapped me because now I identify with them, it`s
called Stockholm syndrome.
AMERICA: Right, right.
PINSKY: And particularly when a kid`s been exposed for a long periods of time, that`s when they tend to identify with the victimizer, right Erica?
AMERICA: Yes. This is identifying with the abuser on top of a family and a culture with their friends, in addition to just the family itself, it`s
very insulated it seems. They don`t want to be -- they didn`t -- they should have of course gone to the police right away and that would have
been, you know.
PINSKY: By the way.
AMERICA: . or to a therapist.
PINSKY: And based on the timeline that Mike told us, when the child came back three times saying what he had done, well then we thought we need some
outside help and we`ll go the church for that.
AMERICA: Right. I don`t event get that because the first instance that they were told that, it was five different times he said. Isn`t that
enough victims? Five?
PINSKY: Yes.
AMERICA: And then they said when they finally went it was because the victim that came forward was a single digit the way -- which we find is
five years old. For some reason, the five-year old triggered going to the police. What about all the other age sister, there has to be extreme
compartmentalization in their brains that they`re young girls were getting abused sexually, and the allowed it to happen over and over and over and
protect the son, it`s really wild (ph).
PINSKY: I want to bring in Angela Shelton. She had survived sexual abuse by her father and stepbrother. Thanks for joining us. I really appreciate
it. She now has three kids (inaudible), she has another one on the way. Do you have any way of understanding.
ANGELA SHELTON, SEXUAL ABUSE SURVIVOR: Whoa, I have one kid.
PINSKY: Oh, OK. Good, all right. Fair enough.
CATHERWOOD: You want more?
PINSKY: Then that`s the -- I beg your pardon, Josh has three kids and one in the way. I misread that. I beg your pardon entirely. I completely
misread the prop here which was that he has a bunch of little kids in his family. Now, is that a source of concern for you?
SHELTON: Yeah. Yeah, really. I have to bring up something that I don`t hear anybody talking about and having been in this situation where I was
molested by my biological father and my stepbrother who was also a victim of my dad, I don`t hear anybody talking about what happened to Josh.
I just want to throw that out there of why are we immediately saying he is a predator when -- why aren`t we looking into what he went through, like.
PINSKY: What do you.
SHELTON: I would suggest looking into his church.
PINSKY: Well, I -- listen, I so thoroughly agree with you. But that has been my bone of contention from the beginning is that even the victimizer
deserves an evaluation as much as his victims but he was never professionally evaluated. So nobody has any idea to this day what this is
we`re looking at. We have no idea.
SHELTON: Yeah, and it`s scary. It`s a much bigger problem.
PINSKY: Do you want to speculate? I know you don`t know them and you`re not in a position to really do a formal evaluation but what is it that
you`re alluding to?
SHELTON: From all the travel that I have done and all the many thousands of survivors I`ve spoken to, I would theorized that he was, let`s say,
diddled or, you know, molested himself somewhere, whether it was an elder in the church or it maybe even his own family and he`s over-sexualized and
he`s acting out. Yes, it`s totally inappropriate and it`s leading down the road if you don`t help him, he could turn into a child molester.
My brother was 12 and he was molesting us and he was the one who actually turned it in and turned and my dad in to make it all stop. And because he
wanted to stop against himself and he was incredibly -- we were over- sexualized hugely. And I know -- we`re in a country right now that we want to string everybody up and lynch them and put them on, you know, run them
down main street (ph), when there`s a much bigger question here. What`s going on in the family? What`s going on in the church? Why is he doing
this in the first place?
PINSKY: Well, again, why though is he being insulated from an evaluation where that could be determined and he be helped. He, for all we know, as I
said at the outset in this little interaction we`ve had, he might be doing something to his own children right now, we don`t know. We have no idea
where this is going, where it went and where it came from.
AMERICA: Yeah. I mean, so many years there could have been treatment going on. Now, it`s allowed to fester but this really goes back to the
parents. The parents could have gotten him the treatment. So I ask you, Loni, are they culpable in any way?
COMBS: Yeah. It`s interesting that Jim Bob pointed out very quickly in the interview that parents are not mandatory reporters. It`s interesting a
foster parent is, but if you`re a real parent, you`re no required under the law to be a mandatory reporter. However, there is a felony that says if
you know about child abuse, you`re supposed to immediately report either to a medical or law authority which they did not do.
So they could have been held liable for that felony, however, the statute of limitations was run by the time that they was actually investigated.
PINSKY: Do you really believe that the attorney that was helping them off this case -- with the investigation was trying to get the statute to.
COMBS: Well, I don`t know because it`s just interest that 2006 is when it all comes up is really because they were going to go on the Oprah Winfrey
Show. So I don`t know that they were purposely putting it out to that point and starting the investigation. I think were just trying to keep it
all quiet for as long as they could.
PINSKY: Don`t you think that attorney should be held accountable too for something if he`s -- he or she was specifically orchestrating it that way,
to let the statute run out. That`s insane.
COMBS: Yeah, honestly though, you do have to put some responsibility on that state trooper where they said they to law enforcement.
PINSKY: He`s in prison, don`t worry.
COMBS: That`s right. But he is the one that -- he should have reported it.
PINSKY: Well, and there were people at in the city that are being questioned.
CATHERWOOD: I also like to point out to that -- I mean, I don`t think anybody expects people to turn their child in. Or I can understand how
parents would be reluctant to turn their child in, but when you look at this situation, you`re then essentially choosing the need of one child over
another because some of your other children were also victims.
So now you`re.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: This is no different if Josh had leukemia and they took him to the church and his leukemia brought infected material because he was having
impaired immunity. Other kids got infected by his leukemia and we`re going to handle it with the church. This is no different.
Next, we`re going to talk about whether this show is to be canceled, we`ll be right back.
YASMIN VOSSOUGHIAN, HLN HOST: I`m Yasmin Vossoughian, I`m with the Daily Share at this hour.
This photo has been trending all day on Reddit. It shows a large and very active beehive in the children`s section of a public library in Ohio. It`s
called the Library Observation Hive and it`s maintained by local beekeepers.
Now, some of the Reddit comments, HappyEngineer says, "You kids better start behaving," get it? And this post, "What could possibly go wrong?"
And Montana, a car filled with bees was swerving all over the road so someone called 911, of course. Highway patrol said there were five
beehives in the vehicle with thousands of bees inside, they were flying around and swarming all across the windows. Apparently, they`re harmless
Russian honeybees and said it was all legal, though the driver just got a just got a ticket for careless driving.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: A new document detailing allegations against Josh Duggar.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It actually includes an allegation he molested his 5- year-old sister when he was 15.
PINSKY: Repeatedly, right?
CATHERWOOD: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know if every parent would turn their child in. Do you think people really would turn their children in?
PINSKY: It`s not about turning him in necessarily as much as getting him to professional help.
Jessa Duggar says I was a victim. Some people are calling him a child molester, rapist, some people are saying, "I`m like that`s overboard." I`m
like, "it`s a lie, really."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it`s really unfair for us to be calling Josh Duggar a pedophile when the only actions we know about happened when he was
also a child.
PINSKY: Child on child sexual abuse is one of the most common forms these days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hypocrisy is so real with this family.
I say screw you, Jim Bob and Michelle. Screw you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We here talking about Josh Duggar, it`s like well, Sam, settle down. The parents, they explained their response to the confession that he
had -- that Josh had molested his own sisters.
I`m back with Erica, Loni, and Mike. Here now is what the Duggars told FOX News whether they had been frightened to go to sleep at night after having
learned what josh had done.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. B. DUGGAR: Nothing ever happened like that again in the girls` bedrooms after that.
KELLY: OK.
J. B. DUGGAR: OK. So, we had safeguards that protected them from that. But there was another incident where -- two different incidents where the
girls were, like, laying on the couch, and it was -- and he had touched, like, over the couch and actually touched their breast while they were
asleep. And so -- over their clothes:
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I think they`re trying to contain an animal or something, right? We locked them in one room and put the gates around the other and.
COMBS: Well, even with all those safeguards, he just still continuing to touch those poor girls.
PINSKY: Of course, because it has nothing to do with them talking to him or the safeguards or anything else. This child has a mental illness it
looks like.
Josh`s two victims, Jill and Jessa told FOX News about how they felt when they heard the story had become a national subject.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JILL DUGGAR DILLARD, 19 KIDS AND COUNTING: They don`t have a right to do this. We`re victims. They can`t do this to us.
KELLY: And yet they did.
DILLARD: They did.
SEEWALD: The system that was set up to protect kids, both those who make stupid mistakes, or have problems like this in their life and the ones that
are affected by those choices, it`s just -- it`s greatly failed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m sure it`s no fun to be the subject of Twitter scrutiny, especially when there`s always controversy.
CATHERWOOD: Well, I empathize with the victims, with the sisters there because I, too, you know, I was the victim of sexual abuse and I didn`t
really even realize it nor did I want to create the image of my -- the person who perpetrated on me as a predator.
PINSKY: Yeah.
CATHERWOOD: . because when you don`t perceive someone doing that to you, as being a predator, it`s not like someone snatched you into their van and
doing that. It`s almost -- to a child`s mind, it`s very hard to reason with the idea.
PINSKY: Right. How did it shift? Did you started looking at -- because I remember I was kind there when you started going, "Oh, oh."
CATHERWOOD: You were there the first time I even was willing to admit that it happened.
PINSKY: Yeah.
CATHERWOOD: You -- it was on the air. And it was -- the thing what I was sexually active at an extremely young age by an older woman. You know weak
and older woman.
PINSKY: That`s a kind of a challenge.
CATHERWOOD: Sure. And oftentimes, people look at it as not being kind of sexual abuse because I was a young boy and I was horny and I kind of wanted
to, but it was -- and it started in a fashion that was clearly predatory to me.
PINSKY: Can you understand how Jessa and Jill though would try to excuse it and.
CATHERWOOD: Without question. I had.
PINSKY: How did it shift? How did you...
CATHERWOOD: I can see it their eyes because I`m sure they love their brother and I`m sure they do know that he`s not necessarily a evil person
or a predator. He`s a guy who has mental illness, like you said, that needs professional medical and psychiatric treatment.
And so like I was saying, when you don`t perceive someone who perpetrate any type of trauma on you as a predator going into it, it`s really easy to
then sympathize or justify their behavior.
PINSKY: Right. Especially if it`s your brother and the whole family system holds together because of it and your whole philosophy of life
hinges on this.
COMBS: And your parents are still providing this situation where you`re all together. So you want to normalize it and say like, "Yes, it`s OK
because my parents are saying it`s OK."
PINSKY: Let me bring this (inaudible) for the victims.
Joining me is Mark Harris, a senior pastor of the First Baptist Church of Charlotte, North Carolina. Pastor, I want to get your thoughts on this.
I`m so concerned at the way the insulation of that system they were a part of and it was not a typical Christian organization, by the way, the way
that was used as a justification for leaving these kids neglected, frankly. They`re not getting the care they need.
MARK HARRIS, PASTOR: Well, you know, I watched the interview, Dr. Drew. And as I watch the interview, to be honest with out, I didn`t see and hear
all the things that I`ve begun to hear obviously that created the national phenomenon.
In so many ways, I thought like I saw a family that obviously face a very, very dark time, a very difficult time. And I genuinely believe, as I watch
the interview, that the Duggar parents tried to take the steps they felt were best.
PINSKY: No, they`re not evil people trying to harm their kids. No one is saying that. And I know they`re taking some heat because they`ve taken
some very unpopular positions about certain minority groups. But the reality is they neglected the kids and they justified it and their church
leaders allowed -- insisted -- there was a leader in the church that insisted they not take the kid to care because that`s where they learn how
to be pedophiles, he told them.
He muscled them away from care when their social services were investigating them.
HARRIS: Well, I`m certainly -- I`m not aware of who that church person is and I`m not here to defend that particular decision. But also do know that
there are effective Christian counseling centers that are certified, that are licensed. I`m not familiar enough with the particular place where Josh
went but I do know that there are very.
PINSKY: Listen, you bring up a great point. You bring up a great point which to know how to evaluate these things, licensed is a good word to see
on these things. Board certified, JACO certified. These sorts of things. I want to just thank you, sir.
I want to go quickly to the audience and ask -- get a question here. Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a statement. I believe that, you know, this did happen a long time ago and he was a child, OK? And it was wrong and all
that. But I believe that Jim Bob, you know, within their Christian beliefs and everything, quite possibly did try to get him help and everything and.
PINSKY: That`s not what the record shows, though. The record shows that he went.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He send him to a construction worker.
PNSKY: He went to a worksite and then sent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.
PINSKY: . him to a guy who ended up getting accused of sexual molestation. So two guys that gets.
COMBS: And even now when he talks about it, you can see how naive he is.
AMERICA: He`s still denying, I mean -- about the sexual abuse, he keeps saying, "Oh, they were asleep."
COMBS: And it wasn`t rape.
AMERICA: And it was over -- I mean that is really, really sad.
PINSKY: So what we`ve learned is that if somebody is so intoxicated, that they don`t wake up or if they`re asleep, and somebody touches them or rapes
them, well then it`s OK. Is that what we`re.
(CROSSTALK)
CATHERWOOD: I think what we`re seeing is well is that and this happens so often that you really get frustrated by it. That there`s a grave
misunderstanding and also an aggressive kind of aversion to mental health professionals.
AMERICA: That`s all they had.
CATHERWOOD: . of mental health problem.
PINSKY: As opposed to a parenting issue.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: We`ve got to understand the distinction. This is not a parenting problem. They went overboard to the parenting, too much parenting.
AMERICA: So strong -- yes, I mean that`s exactly what is in that interview. They were like, "We are parents, and we are going to lock those
doors and we`re going to.
PINSKY: There you go.
AMERICA: And were going to and send them to construction workers, wrong. No.
PINSKY: Wrong. Get professional help.
Next up, a human lie detector is here to see what she sees when the Duggars are giving their interview. We`ll be back with that after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: You do not view Josh as a pedophile?
J.B. DUGGAR: No.
M. DUGGAR: No.
KELLY: What I`m asking is can you understand the critics` reaction to this news?
M. DUGGAR: I can understand that, but I think we`ve never -- I know that every one of us have done things wrong. We`re -- that`s why Jesus came. I
feel like this is more about -- there is an agenda.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: What did she say? It`s more about what?
CATHERWOOD: There`s an agenda, I think.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Like they have an agenda?
COMBS: Yeah. By releasing the police report, that`s what they`re saying.
PINSKY: Last night -- that was FOX News -- Josh Duggars` parents say their son is not a pedophile, yet he molested five under aged children when he
was a teen, a younger teen.
Back with Erica, Loni, and Mike. Joining us via Skype, I`ve got Janine Driver, the so-called human lie detect and author of "You Can`t Lie To Me".
Janine here is a clip from FOX News, I want you to watch and we`re going to get your reaction of what you see there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. DUGGAR: It was so important for us as parents to talk to our girls and make sure that nothing else had happened.
KELLY: So, what did they say?
M. DUGGAR: Well, one by one, as we talked with them, none of them were aware of Josh`s wrongdoings.
KELLY: The subsequent incidents after the first one involved daughters who were awake, or at least a couple of them?
J. B. DUGGAR: There was a couple, yes. And they didn`t really understand, though -- we took a friend with us to -- because we wanted to make sure
that we had a witness that would -- you know, that would verify that we had shared everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, Janine, let`s get at it here. That wide-eyed look from the wife and I`m sure she is struggling.
JANINE DRIVER, "HUMAN LIE DETECTOR": I can`t imagine, you know. I`ve shared this before with you, Dr. Drew, as I was molested as a young kid by
a next-door neighbor. And my mother called the police right away, God love her. And I told her the night it happened, and it was over the clothes
and, you know, I`m 45-years old today and even though it was touching over the clothes, it`s still -- it affected me throughout my dating life, my
childhood, my adult life.
It changes the kind of.
PINSKY: Can you imagine, Janine, having them locked in a household with that same perpetrator for ten years or so while you were told that God`s
got him in his possession, everything is fine. If you feel bad, pray about it, something of that nature, would that have done anything good for you?
DRIVER: I can`t -- I can`t imagine -- trust of your parents, you know, that -- the people you`re supposed to trust. And you see the smile there
with the dad which is interesting. We smile, Dr. Drew, from one of three reasons. I called it HEE, H-E-E, happiness, evil, embarrassment.
Now, I actually don`t think he`s smile is evil here. I think it`s either happiness or it`s embarrassment. And this is why, he`s either happy that
he brought his family`s friend in because now the cop that they went and confessed to is in jail for all this like kiddie porn stuff. And so, now
you see the father here smiling like as if to say, "Thank God I brought a friend with me because look at the precarious situation I got myself into."
Now, the language here is interesting as well, Dr. Drew. Now, we heard in the clip you played for me a second, "our daughters". Other than that,
very few times have they say our daughters. They typically say he knew it was wrong, it was in his heart. It`s more of his hear and his intent.
First of all, what does that mean? It`s just.
PINSKY: It`s means nothing. If I`m evaluating somebody for mental issues, I don`t know what`s in your heart? What`s your intent? What`s in your
heart? And it`s like no.
DRIVER: The guy that fiddled with me lives two doors down, he`s still lives in the neighborhood I grew up in. I mean, do you think -- my mother
was like, "Well, let`s look at his intent and let`s look at his heart?" What does that mean?
PINSKY: I`m sure your mom pulled him aside and said, "Dude, what was in your heart when you were molesting my daughter? What`s in there?" Janine,
hold on one sec, there`s a lot more here. I know you`re always are so good at breaking this all down for us but I want to get an audience question.
Yes, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So I just have a couple things to say. Number one, it comes down to we`re not talking about mental issues. I feel like
parents.
PINSKY: Why are were not?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, no. In the sense that they were not.
PINSKY: They didn`t even get anywhere near any of that, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. That`s the thing. First of all, people need to -- as parents, especially needs to go to that. And then number two, it
pisses me off how they talk about God, God, God, God this. No. God is not looking over you saying, "Oh, this is all right." No, like don`t -- be
responsible, you know, in that sense. And I feel like they were (inaudible) the daughter like, "Are you sure he did this?" Like, "It`s
OK." Like, you know how sometimes how parents say that so then the daughters felt safe and now the daughters are still, "Oh, you know, he
didn`t do anything."
PINSKY: I agree. I hear what you`re saying. That the daughters are sort of -- you know, the parents will protect themselves from a narcissistic
injury have to make it all OK. They have to make everything perfect.
We`re going to talk to a guy in a few minutes who was in the school system that they were trained, and he was saying that perfectionism was the only
goal of that system. You had to be perfect all the time. And if there was a transgression, you ought to be brought back into being perfect.
And I`m here to tell you, being perfect is no way to be. No human is perfect. I`m not perfect. I don`t want to (inaudible). You`re not
perfect because if you are, you got some concerns. Perfectionism ends up in really seriously problematic place.
Yes, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have two questions but -- I wanted to comment on this. Why does nobody talk about the fact if these children have received
proper sexual education from an early age that maybe this could have been avoided?
PINSKY: You know, people are saying that and it`s a great question. What do you think about that, Erica?
AMERICA: OK, you`re saying because they were limited to home school or something, they didn`t know that.
PINSKY: Well, then -- I`ve seen lot of people saying, you know, they were so repressed. Their sexuality was so scary to them that they were not
allowed to explore it. It doesn`t make kids reach out and grab one another. It doesn`t do that.
(CROSSTALK)
CATHERWOOD: No, but what -- it might -- I`m sorry to interrupt you, but what it will do, I think, will misguide the innate sexual energy that a lot
of young boys have. When a 14-year-old boy is an animal, I know. I mean I was out of freaking control. But what did I do? I -- because I grew up in
a household that really did have a very healthy view of sex.
PINSKY: Yeah.
CATHERWOOD: And I, you know, I flirted with girls. I had a little private time in the shower, you know what I`m saying?
PINSKY: But you did not violate somebody`s body.
(CROSSTALK)
CATHERWOOD: Exactly. Exactly.
PINSKY: Even with all that energy.
CATHERWOOD: But I was taught to embrace the idea of natural human sexuality and the beauty that comes with it. And I think for someone --
and I`m not trying to paint with a broad brush of all religion but clearly in very a repressed environment which the Duggars lived in, you can see how
they might distort that sexual energy.
PINSKY: You could see it and I`m on the record.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: On the record, it does not do that in my experience. You had your experience.
AMERICA: Yeah. The issue is that people, like a percentage of people molest children.
PINSKY: Somebody violated his body.
AMERICA: And they did it and they didn`t get the proper help and that would be -- we have to get people to get help. That`s it.
PINSKY: That`s right. Loni?
COMBS: And this ain`t beyond just curiosity. So he had -- he was doing this over and over again. He started over clothes, he started to go under
the clothes. I mean this is not just like something.
(CROSSTALK)
AMERICA: . words the girls are saying.
(CROSSTALK)
AMERICA: . they`re not -- these are impulses because of a mental illness, impulses. Totally different.
PINSKY: All right. Next up, a man who was raised in the Duggars` church says he`s not surprised by this. He says they were required to be perfect
at all times in all things. We`ve been hearing about all this family and the issues because of the choices these parents have made, not the choices
Josh Duggar made.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH DUGGAR: Now my family has a reality show, "19 Kids and Counting." I`m sure many of you have watched that.
My siblings, like all others, you know, we were best friends and we were worst enemies at times, you know.
When I was 15 years old, as some people say, I sort of rededicated my life. I really would say t hat that`s when I really manned up. I realized, you
know, what, I got to own this. I got to make sure it`s mine. And I`ve never looked back.
A lot of fun, I mean there`s a lot responsibility but I think there`s a -- I mean as far as -- you`ve got a lot of people that are watching you and
you got to be good examples to them."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That`s Josh Duggar. You see, I feel bad. That kid needs help and evaluation, professional intervention. He confessed to molesting under age
girls including four of his own sisters. That kid`s walking around with that and nobody helped him.
Back with Erica, Loni, and Mike.
Let`s talk about the so-called advanced training institute, the ATI. It is a controversial religious home schooling program that apparently the
Duggars followed. Gawker published some of the teachings. I mean -- hold on to your seat here, buddy because this his is what they`re being taught.
Semen, for instance, causes cancer. That`s right. Doctors have discovered that the seed of the man is an alien substance to the woman. I t triggered
responses similar to those of an "allergic" reaction. A woman who has a husband is able to develop "immunity" to this reaction, however, a
promiscuous woman`s immune system becomes confused and unable to distinguish alien substances. Then confusion is the key then to
development of cancer.
So, if you`re sexually active, you`re going to get cancer and that`s what that is saying.
And Bill Gothard, the founder of ATI forced to resign later after having 34 women accuse him of sexual harassment at his ministry. Also in the police
report obtained by In Touch, the officer asked one of the unnamed children about spanking, and the child said, "When a child is bad, the child`s
mother and dad spank.
The investigator then said what do they use to spank? And the child said, a rod. Investigator asked if they do this all the time, they said yes.
The investigator asked if they leave any bruising., they said no.
So, I want to bring into the program John Underwood. He`s a former student of ATI. He has since removed himself from that program and runs a website
with his wife called Recovering -- is it Recovering Grace or Recovery Grace, John?
JOHN UNDERWOOD, RECOVERING GRACE: Recovering Grace, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you so much for joining us. Tell us about ATI and the perfectionism that it demanded.
UNDERWOOD: Sure. Just to clarify a couple of points. It`s a whistleblower blog that actually many, many people are involved in. My
wife and I are a part of that team.
But ATI is actually not a church. I think there`s some struggling out there as to yet to how to define ATI. Many ATI families were actually
members of mainstream Evangelical churches. But there will be, in a lot of times, friends, groups inside those churches.
PINSKY: Is ATI a cult?
UNDERWOOD: We`ve had that debate quite a bit. And I don`t think it`s a cult in the sense that most people will understand it.
PINSKY: Well, there`s -- you`re either in or you`re out, and the leader got -- abused some women. That sounds little culty to me. It`s -- you
have to try their system and there are no -- and it leaves no alternative. What -- talk to me about when you finally left, how did you get out of the
system?
UNDERWOOD: Well, it`s interesting. You don`t really leave. It`s funny how as you get older, you sort of drift away. It`s like it`s an
organization totally focused on single, young people or parents with families. And as you get older, you just kind of either keep following the
teachings or you don`t.
It`s not a traditional church or a real heavy, you know, an organized thing that you`re either kicked in or out of but many people follow it.
PINSKY: John, whom do you think they went to in that church to get help when they realized they had trouble with their son?
UNDERWOOD : They -- (inaudible) about their, the ATI culture they probably went to the training center director there in Arkansas.
PINSKY: Could he have been the guy that told them don`t go to a professional because that`s where kids learn how to be child abusers,
that`s where they really get -- learn how to do drugs when they`re around other "bad" kids?
UNDERWOOD: Yeah, I heard that mentioned earlier. That actually does -- that doesn`t sound familiar to me, that particular comment but it doesn`t
surprise me to hear it. There`s a huge focus in ATI culture on avoiding evil influences and it`s almost an obsession and even within the orthodox
mainstream Christianity, you want to avoid being around who don`t have the same standards on dress or music, or whatever because it`s going to pollute
your children and, you know, put evil influences, I suppose.
PINSKY: You see how -- thank you, John. You see how they can`t allow themselves to see anything, they`re so blinded by the system there and you
had a question, again?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I think personally as a survivor of covert incest and, you know, looking at these girls, people don`t think about the
long term ramifications of when you get into adulthood and I would say, what advice would you give to people who have experienced abuse from family
members in that way? As an adult, how do you deal with these family members and maintaining relationships with them?
PINSKY: All right. You don`t do it by yourself. And you are note obliged to have a relationship with a perpetrator but you go into a close
environment an you learn -- with a psychotherapist like Erica, and you learn to tolerate being close, learn to regulate your emotions as you
develop that closeness. You examine how you respond to that, and you with that individual whom you now trust -- trust is a big issue for you, right?
That`s the big problem. Who you now trust, will help you determine what you should do with that perpetrator, whether you should ever have them in
your life again or how you manage that relationship because it has to be managed. OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then also my second is, I`m currently in a relationship with someone who has been a victim of sexual assault and I
want to be there for her obviously but my.
PINSKY: Not without.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . triggering thing, how will I.
PINSKY: Yeah. It will trigger you. Don`t -- get her own care, you have your own care. You keep it separate. Keep it separate. Just be a good
partner, don`t be her therapist.
I am out of time. This whole issue of perfectionism has got me sort of spinning a little bit. I want to address in the next block, so we`ll be
right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: And before we get to our Click Fix, I was saying this whole perfectionism thing, it actually got you and I talking on the radio today
about this very thing. And I get accused of being perfect all the time and that is -- no, I am not a perfect person especially when I was younger. I
was a screwball like everybody else.
CATHERWOOD: Right. And I -- I kind of get upset because people kind of place that upon you.
PINSKY: They want me to be perfect.
CATHERWOOD: Right. Or they assume that you`re some type of moralist telling people how to live their life. And it makes me very upset because
I know first hand, a lot of people don`t understanding that Dr. Drew and I are not just colleagues. Before I was even had any idea of getting into
the industry, Dr. Drew helped treat my addiction, you know, in a -- and when you deal with addiction in the public eye, there`s a lot of people who
think you`re bumming their high, you know.
PINSKY: I do not bum anyone`s high. I did drugs and alcohol when I was 22, 23-years old. That`s -- and I think I went around denying it when my
kids were younger.
This is where the problem is, I would say -- there`s a very strict parenting rule I have which is you do not tell anybody what you did during
your adolescents, young adult unless you want your kids to do the same.
CATHERWOOD: Right.
PINSKY: Now, you don`t ever lie to your kids. If they come to you, just go were not going to discuss that, but you have no obligation to tell
anybody anything about what happened.
My kids just graduated from college so I can talk about anything right now. I did. So, I do -- alcohol and pot when I was in, you know, for a year --
and by the way, it informed me, it informed later on. No, informed me because I didn`t like it that much and so when I stop people unable to stop
that, "Oh my God, this is very different than what I experienced."
CATHERWOOD: Did you also -- did it help you kind of deal with the chemical aspects of addiction better because you`re kind of -- you could see in some
people`s eyes, myself included, like, "Wait, I didn`t have this reaction."
PINSKY: Oh, 100 percent. 100 percent. So in any event, so I want to set that record straight, I am not perfect. I was a screwball like everybody
else. And you have a question for me, is it time.
CATHERWOOD: Yeah. When are you going to leave your wife and come to me? That`s my number one question.
PINSKY: I think it might have something to do why I got into the career I got into but I`m not in the bumming anybody`s high, I am not perfect.
AMERICA: . I just want to say like you saying that just makes you more lovable and relatable because all of us are like not perfect.
PINSKY: We`re all not perfect. (inaudible) not perfect. I talked last time that in fact I had therapy for 11 years which -- and you like that
Loni.
(CROSSTALK)
COMBS: . Oh my goodness, that`s going to help so many people feel like it`s OK for them to get therapy because you admitted I had disorder --
yeah.
PINSKY: I`ve changed a lot since I was a student, and that`s.
CATHERWOOD: And again, not to sound like an old -- like a bitter old man, but you know, a lot of times when, like I said, Dr. Drew, he deals with the
clinical aspects of addiction. And addiction oftentimes gets looked at as just good times. And there is a big difference between, "Hey, I want to
crack a couple of beers with my boys after work," and the disease of addiction.
And it`s oftentimes when you do, ask Dr. Drew, very bravely and very selflessly devote your life to the disease, it gets distorted into, "Hey,
he`s the guy who wants to bum my high."
PINSKY: Right.
CATHERWOOD: It`s nothing farther from the truth.
PINSKY: I was -- I get inside pot thing, too. I get (inaudible) pot thing and although, I mean I didn`t like that. I got -- kind of liked it but I
didn`t like.
CATHERWOOD: Well, you`re so neurotic about your figure, it probably made you eat (ph) them, you know.
PINSKY: Do we have time for Click Fix? We`re getting into it picks? How do we got? OK, so a quick Click Fix. Mike, let`s see what you got.
CATHERWOOD: Oh, cheese Luis. I`m going to talk about one of my favorite things, OK. it`s nudity.
AMERICA: Of course.
CATHERWOOD: Tourists around the world are causing an uproar. Check out some of these photos, they are naked tourists. It`s like this new trending
thing.
AMERICA: Oh my God.
CATHERWOOD: So many people are posing nude in front of like religious edifices and things like that. One traveler even called his blog "My Naked
Trip", OK? Authorities in some countries have fined, deported, and even banned the tourist from visiting their country as a whole. Kick them out
of their countries. They say it`s sacrilegious. Look, I`m a fan of the human body, it`s nice.
PINSKY: You`re done for the day. Loni -- I`m cutting you off, Mike. Loni. Real quick, all right, 30 seconds each.
COMBS: All right, all right. This story came up on Reddit, and we`ve heard of the Dark Knight, now we have the drunk knight. There`s a guy in
Massachusetts who lives above a bar. He found this guy out in the street at 3:00 in the morning, behind the driver`s seat, drunk, passed out. The
car was running.
He tried to wake him and help -- he couldn`t wake him up. So he took the keys, hid them on the back seat, brought him back a bottle of water. He
left him a note saying, "I found you passed out drunk and your car running, so I hid your keys under the Atlas in your backseat. I hope you get home
safe. I`m not your hero, I`m your silent guardian, a watchful protector. The Drunk Knight." How.
(CROSSTALK)
AMERICA: You know, I`m big on social media. You know, all over that, so all over Twitter, everything, stories about Kim Richards from Real
Housewives of Beverly Hills. So she left rehab to go to her daughter`s wedding, apparently back in rehab, and the news.
PINSKY: She`s back now?
AMERICA: Back in rehab.
PINSKY: Oh, good. That`s good.
AMERICA: And the news just came out that she`s not going to be back on the Real House wives of Beverly Hills.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s probably good too.
AMERICA: She may make a cameo or two but she`s not going to be a full cast member. So, yeah, that`s pretty, you know.
PINSKY: Good.
AMERICA: . upsetting for some people but good for her health, you know.
PINSKY: Upsetting because they love her.
AMERICA: Upsetting because they want see her on the show but.
PINSKY: Are you upset?
AMERICA: No. Because I don`t want to see someone that`s going crazy and wild in her downfall.
PINSKY: Because she really has a problem. Really, and she`s getting help, I think that will take a long time.
Anyway, thanks -- I was just thinking about what I disclose a second ago. For sure I was talking about things I did before I ever got a medical
degree. Before I got a license then.
CATHERWOOD: Sure. You became awesome.
PINSKY: You don`t get to experiment after that, everybody.
OK. We`re taking a quick break, be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: It is time now for Dr. Drew`s Qs. Your chance to ask me a question, any topic, I will make my -- do my best just to answer it. You
can also tweet @DrDrewHLN, and use the hashtag, DrDrewsQs.
First up on Facebook, Michael, I drink four to five cups of coffee and one to two of caffeinated soda everyday -- this is my kind of man. Can you OD
on caffeine? I get an awful headache if I don`t have it.
You can get into trouble with caffeine. There`s actually something called caffeinism. Obviously, you`re addicted to caffeine and you have a
withdrawal headache, you`re describing that headache. You can get cardiac rhythm problems, you can get panic attacks, anxiety disorders, sleep
disturbances, but otherwise, most of the things associated with caffeine, it`s been carefully studied are net benefits, reduced risk of Alzheimer`s,
reduced risk of Parkinson`s disease. So that`s my present drug of choice, categorically hands down.
From my audience?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How you doing?
PINSKY: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A big fan.
PINSKY: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. I wanted to say my girlfriend`s in the audience and she doesn`t know what I`m about to say, so.
PINSKY: Oh, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Security, stand by. Anyway, all right, so we`ve been together for a while.
PINSKY: Because we don`t know what you`re saying either. So it sounds -- it`s very nervous, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So we`ve been together for a while and ever since we started, she`s required that I use a condom. Awesome, right?
PINSKY: Good, yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So about a year into the relationship, I talked to her into birth control so that I could maybe not use.
PINSKY: Understood. She still wants to you use a condom?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the thing is that birth control is making her not want to have sex with me. And.
PINSKY: Yes. That`s a common side effect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s moody.
PINSKY: A common side effect. It`s (inaudible). Is she here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s up there in the pink.
PINSKY: Oh, they separated you, guys. Are you guys the Orlando couple?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
PINSKY: Oh, great. Thank you for coming out here. So here`s the deal, I feel deeply concerned for her because doctors don`t tell women when they
put them on this high potency progesterones, it`s going to give dryness, it`s going to give you mood disturbances, it`s going to shut down your
libido, and the very relationship that you so value is going to get pulled apart by that.
So, either try something different. There`re actually going to be a test one day where we can test whether a women`s likely to get that from the
progesterone, but if you -- if it -- here`s the real problem. There`s some women that continue to have it even after they get off the pill. So you
really have to get off it soon or tell your doctor you need an adjustment whether something, a little more estrogen, a little less progesterone.
Does that answer your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Definitely. So I`ll talk to the doctor that prescribed her.
PINSKY: Doctor, the prescribing doctor but, boy, you want to get off that stuff soon and maybe just stay with the condoms, it`s better than what
you`re dealing with, right?
Twitter, Don says, "What are some of the side effects of the meds that Bruce Jenner is taking?" We have a lot of hormone conversation. And yes,
the big one that I worry about is estrogen. And the estrogen is the one that`s feminizing and gives all those wonderful feminine qualities.
However, it can also call mood disturbances. It`s associated with blood clots, it`s associated with liver problems and it is something that can
change mostly mood. I would think I worry about when I think about Caitlyn Jenner, the problem is she had previously been suicidal, she has tremendous
stress, she has this being done very publicly. I mean, there`s so -- when you add up the score, the estrogen really can have a -- add to a potential,
really serious mood problem.
Thank you all for watching. I got to wrap it up right here. You can DVR us and you can watch us anytime.
Again, thank you. Thank you, audience. You did a great job. Thank you to my panel. And we will see you next time.
END
