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Did China Steal Info on Four Million Government Workers?; Family Names One of Dennis Hastert's Alleged Sex Abuse Victim; ISIS Uses Social Media to Lure Sympathizers; Sisters Stand up for Josh Duggars; Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired June 05, 2015 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:01] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM starts now.

And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. We begin with a developing story sure to rattle the nerves of millions of Americans.

The U.S. government now scrambling to deal with a massive security hack supposedly by China's military. Nearly every federal agency hit possibly right up to the White House. Millions of employees robbed of personal information and possibly millions more yet to be discovered. We're following all the latest on this developing story.

Evan Perez is CNN's justice correspondent. He joins me now from Washington.

Good morning.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Carol, this is much worse even than what the government said yesterday. The Office of Personnel Management versus the essentially the personnel office for the U.S. government says that it was notified four million former and current government employees that their personal data was compromised in this hack according to investigators we've talked to in the last 24 hours, the top suspect is the Chinese military.

They've been compiling, according to these intelligence and law enforcement investigators, they've compiling a database on Americans and so what's happening now is the U.S. government is trying to assess the extent of this damage. We're told that this is much bigger than just the OPM office. That it extends to virtually every government agency that's been hit by these hackers.

And what's worse is that this happened months ago and it took a long time for the Homeland Security Department, for the U.S. government, to even figure out what exactly was happening. There's a system that they put in place called Einstein which is supposed to help detect these type of intrusions, Carol. And in this case, it didn't really do that after it was discovered they deployed Einstein to try to figure out where else it might have gone and they discovered that it was much bigger than just the office of personnel management.

COSTELLO: Evan Perez reporting live from Washington. News of the U.S. government breach comes at the same time Edward

Snowden marks the second anniversary of his massive NSA snooping leak. In a "New York Times" op-ed he sheds light on his concerns that the public wouldn't take his findings seriously. He hails Congress' decision to put an end to the NSA's call tracking program, writing in part, quote, "After a White House appointed oversight board investigation found that this program had not stopped a single terrorist attack, even the president, who once defended its propriety and criticized its disclosure has now ordered it terminated. "This is the power of an informed public," end quote.

Now to another story unfolding at this hour. Dennis Hastert was once second in line to the presidency but years earlier he was a trusted coach and beloved teacher, and according to one family, a child molester.

A woman has come forward saying her brother, seen here, endured years of sexual abuse in high school by the man who had become speaker of the House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOLENE BURDGE, SISTER OF ALLEGED VICTIM OF SEXUAL ABUSE: I asked him, Stevie, when was your first same-sex experience? I mean he just looked at me and said it was with Dennis Hastert. And I just -- I know I was stunned. I said why didn't you ever tell anybody, Stevie? I mean, he was your teacher. Why didn't you ever tell anybody? He just looked at me and said who is ever going to believe me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: CNN's Chris Frates is with investigations here at the network. He joins us now live from Chicago to tell us more. Good morning.

CHRIS FRATES, CNN INVESTIGATIONS UNIT CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning. So we just heard there from the sister of one of Deny Hastert's former students. And she's telling ABC News that Hastert abused her brother throughout his high school career.

Steve Reinboldt was abused by Hastert in the 1970s while Hastert was a high school wrestling coach and Reinboldt was the team's equipment manager. And that's what his sister Jolene Reinboldt says. She says her brother first told her about the alleged abuse in 1979 when he revealed to her that he was gay. When her brother died in 1995, Hastert attended his funeral and that's where a furious Jolene -- an angry Jolene Reinboldt confronted him.

Here's how she described that confrontation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REINBOLDT: I just looked at him and I said, I want to know why you did what you did to my brother. He just stood there and stared at me. And then I just continued to say, I want you to know that your secret didn't die in there with my brother. And I want you to remember that I'm out here and that I know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRATES: So federal prosecutors allege that Hastert had agreed to pay another man $3.5 million to hide past misconduct. Reinboldt says she never asked Hastert for any money. And Hastert is charged with trying to hide the payments to that man and lying to the FBI.

[10:05:08] Now, Carol, CNN has reached out to Hastert's attorney and the FBI for comment. We've not yet heard back. And in fact, Hastert's made no public statements since he was indicted last week -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Thanks so much. Chris Frates reporting live Chicago this morning.

I want to talk a little bit more about this. Joining me now is criminal defense attorney, Brian Claypool.

Good morning, Brian.

BRIAN CLAYPOOL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good morning, Carol. Nice to see you again.

COSTELLO: Good morning. Thanks for being here. It's such a story. This sister said her brother was molested by Dennis Hastert in 1979 and when he was in high school, he later died of AIDS in 1995. She approached authorities in 2006 saying, you know, this really happened. Can someone help me? No one could corroborate her story. Is there any recourse for her now?

CLAYPOOL: Well, unfortunately, Carol, because her brother has passed away, she really doesn't have any civil recourse. But you know, in some states, like in California there's a statute that allows somebody to report child abuse beyond the statute of limitations if they file a formal police report then for example here in California law enforcement can conduct an investigation within a one-year time period and then determine whether to file criminal charges against the alleged perpetrator.

Not sure what the law is there in Illinois as far as criminal recourse. But I think more importantly here, we have to start understanding, Carol, in our society that child sexual abuse sometimes is minimized. For example, look at the Hastert indictment. The child abuse aspect of it is secondary. They were even trying to hide it when they initially came out with the indictment.

Trying to catch a child predator especially somebody who's in a position of authority and trust, and holding them accountable is much like getting a straight answer from a politician. It's very, very difficult. And it's daunting. Because you have that person who is in a position of power versus a young child and unless there's a witness or you've got some text message or something on videotape, it's very difficult to hold that person accountable.

COSTELLO: It's just mind-boggling if these allegations are true and I know Dennis Hastert allegedly paid out millions to keep it quiet. But this was kept secret for 36 years.

CLAYPOOL: Yes. Carol --

COSTELLO: At a time in our history when he was -- when he was speaker of the House there're all sorts of political scandals coming out. So it's not like no one was investigating lawmakers.

CLAYPOOL: Yes. Carol, you're raising a great point. Hastert was two steps away from being the president of the United States. I've been involved -- I was involved in one of the biggest child abuse scandals in the history of our country. The Miramonte child abuse case. I fought for three years over 80 kids were molested by one single teacher. The reason why I'm sharing that with you is, I've learned two things from child sexual abuse cases.

Number one, the child perpetrator doesn't just do it one time, Carol. Most child perpetrators and child sex abusers do it repeatedly. That's why I was very disappointed in the Hastert matter that there was no investigation conducted back at the time when this happened. Now we have a second alleged victim.

The second thing I've learned, Carol, over the years, there's a major code of silence in covering up child abuse. And also in conjunction with that, a child abuser can't get away with this by himself or herself. There are always cohorts involved that know about it, who are covering it up and who are collaborators, and until we start investigating more seriously and prosecuting not only the child abuser but those who are facilitating the child abuser this will continue.

COSTELLO: Brian Claypool, thanks for your insight. I appreciate it as always.

CLAYPOOL: Thanks, Carol. Have a good weekend.

COSTELLO: You too.

This just into CNN, eight suspected Taliban militants convicted in the shooting of a Pakistani school girl Malala have been acquitted. The men were sentenced to life in prison earlier this year but Pakistani police said they've been cleared in an appeals trial due to lack of evidence. Two others will retain their life sentences.

Malala was gravely injured when gunmen stormed her school bus in 2012. Last year she became the youngest person ever to receive the Nobel Peace Prize.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the family of a terror suspect gunned down in Boston this week now disputing claims Usaamah Rahim had contact with ISIS. Hear what they have to say next.

[10:09:48]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Right now investigators are trying to figure out how exactly ISIS may have a inspired Boston terror suspect Usaamah Rahim. This morning we're learning new details about that foiled terror plot. Officials say Rahim who was shot dead after lunging at Boston Police with a knife called his father just moments before he was killed to say his final goodbyes.

In the meantime, in an exclusive interview with CNN's Erin Burnett, Rahim's brother, a well known California cleric, is defending his brother asking people not to judge him just yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IBRAHIM RAHIM, BROTHER OF BOSTON TERROR SUSPECT: You've got to start speaking more about the Muslims of America and not the Muslims in Syria who are doing bad things who don't like America. Speak about Muslims who actually live who love America. That's me. That's Usaamah. That's the Rahim family. Let's establish the facts. The facts are still coming in. We need more information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK. So let's head live to Boston for more info from CNN's Alexandra Field.

Good morning.

[10:15:05] ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Carol. Good morning. We know that the Rahim family has plans to bury Usaamah Rahim today. They made a request to the district attorney's office not to release that surveillance video of his death, of the shooting, until after he was buried.

But we do know, Carol, that the family did get an opportunity to watch that video privately. It seems that that viewing has dispelled some of the misconceptions that the family had about what went down outside of that CVS. The family initially under the impression that Rahim was shot in the back three times. Family members now acknowledging that that was in fact not the case. But they say they do still have a lot of questions about why police approached Rahim in the parking lot and what happened.

They also have questions about why he was under surveillance. Why authorities were watching him. They say they never saw any indication that he was inspired in any way by ISIS. They never had any reason, they say, to believe that he was plotting anything.

Listen to what his aunt had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAREN, DEAD TERROR SUSPECT'S AUNT: If it wasn't for him being Muslim, then we would not be hearing terrorism. We would not be hearing ISIS. What I heard on the media was that they said at the last minute at 5:00 a.m., he decided to -- he mentioned (INAUDIBLE), which was some last-minute discovery. There was no plot. There was no scheming. It was some type of impulse.

(END VIDEO CLIP) FIELD: Authorities have a very different take on this. They say they have evidence that he was planning, that he was plotting, that he was speaking to accomplices. This is a man who was on their radar for several years. He was under surveillance from the joint terrorism task force. In days before his death he was under 24-hour surveillance, Carol. Authorities say that he had purchased three knives in order to launch his attack against police officers.

We're now learning that authorities believe that he spoke to his father on the morning of the attack in order to say his final good- bye. They say that he -- they stopped him in that CVS parking lot because they wanted to reach him before he boarded a bus -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Alexandra Field reporting live from Boston.

Authorities are now worried the number of plots being planned by ISIS supporters on American soil is surging. In addition to social media, terrorists are also communicating using encrypted messages. Their goal, of course, to evade law enforcement. All of this speaking to strength of the terrorist group's recruiting tools. Last hour I talked with a mother who says her son was radicalized by extremists before he was killed by an airstrike in Turkey. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINA DAM, SON KILLED DURING AIRSTRIKE AFTER JOINING ISIS: In my case, I have a hard time believing my son was ISIS because he's not that kind of a boy. The recruiters define the vulnerable paths and work on that. At the end of the day my boy went -- he ran off to Turkey to help with aid and he did that for the first four months. So he didn't travel to ISIS. He traveled to help in aid camps and help with clothes and food and stuff.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK. So let's talk more about this with former CIA counterterrorism analyst Buck Sexton.

Welcome, Buck.

BUCK SEXTON, FORMER CIA COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Thank you.

COSTELLO: So I know it's difficult for parents to believe that their child could join a terrorist group. But really they are the most effective means that authorities have in keeping track of young people who may be radicalized by terrorist groups online.

SEXTON: Of course we have sympathy with grieving parents no matter what the situation is but in the case of Usaamah Rahim in Boston, for example, all of the evidence points in one clear direction, and that is a radicalization that would have occurred without his family knowing. That's not unusual. In fact, that's the standard. And many of these chat rooms and forums and places where that radicalization occurs online, they discuss operational security or ops sec measures.

Part of that would be don't talk about this a lot. Because generally speaking, the way individuals get caught before they can engage in this kind of a jihadist plot, a lone wolf jihadist plot is they want to talk about it, they want to make a show of it to some of their fellow believers. They want to reach out to what they think might be an ISIS Twitter or Facebook account or something along those lines.

And that's when law enforcement says OK, we've got a problem here. But this individual was on the radar for quite some time. He was under 24/7 surveillance, which is a big step. The FBI does not have the resources to put people all across the country to 24/7 surveillance unless they think they're an imminent and operational threat.

COSTELLO: Was his phone tapped? His cell phone tapped?

SEXTON: It seems like that's the case so far because I believe that they --

COSTELLO: That's the information we have. His phone was tapped.

SEXTON: Yes. The FBI has said that they have a call from him to his father, Usaamah Rahim to his father, and if he said good-bye right before then and he knew that the police were coming in, there's a possibility that he may have made the decision to be a shahid, to be a martyr, that this was his chance to go after the police, and even if he knew he wasn't going to win this battle, he thought maybe with the knife that he had he could have killed one.

That is possible. We don't know. But given the phone call to the father and saying good-bye right before depends. He might have just said good-bye, I'm going to work or I'm going to wherever, but he also -- we'll have to see what the context of that phone call.

[10:20:12] COSTELLO: How do you tap someone's cell phone? I'm just curious.

SEXTON: How? Well, it's not hard to do. I mean, the FBI can tap cell phones and they do this even for insider trading cases. They can do this for any number of things. It's just electronically they can pick up the signature, they can listen in. It's all recorded. And there are many ways. It's not hard to do.

COSTELLO: OK. So they are following this guy for years. And I'm -- what do you think was the final tip-off?

SEXTON: I think that he probably made a decision at some point, based on everything we've been told so far, to change his target set. I know we've heard that he was planning beheading of Pamela Geller. That's already out there. He may have decided that, well, I don't want to wait to do that. That's too difficult. Maybe that's too grandiose of a jihadist plan. Let's do something that's faster. Let's do something that's easier for him to do as a jihadist.

We've seen in New York already, for example, one individual who had sort of self-radicalized who attacked an NYPD officer with a hatchet. Something along those lines. It's not just something that they've come up with. ISIS is actually explicitly this year said that you should, if you want to wager on jihad, go after police, go after law enforcement. These are higher level, higher tier targets and you can get them anywhere.

So he may have decided let's just go with this. I've been radicalized long enough. I want to be a part of this movement, this Islamic State movement, and I want to engage in jihad and that looks like what happened. There is more information that will come out. We'll have to see. But nothing that we've seen so far would indicate that it wasn't a case of somebody who had radicalized.

COSTELLO: Buck Sexton, thanks for your insight. I appreciate it.

SEXTON: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Still to come to the NEWSROOM, two of Josh Duggar's sisters publicly stand up for their brother despite being his victims. We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:26:02] COSTELLO: Was it illegal to release Josh Duggar's history of molestation? Depends on who you ask. The Duggars and an Arkansas county official say police reports should have been kept secret but "In Touch Weekly" is now defending the release of the records, arguing in a new article online that, quote, "The reports were legally obtained through Arkansas's Freedom of Information Act which is one of the most liberal open records laws in the country."

I should probably know two of the Duggars daughters, Jill and Jessa, are set to talk with FOX News tonight. They'll talk about their older brother, Josh, touching them inappropriately and expressed their anger at their own exploitation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSA SEEWALD, SISTER OF JOSH DUGGAR: I do want to speak up in his defense against people who are calling him a child molester or a pedophile or a rapist. Some people are saying. And like that is so overboard and a lie really. I mean, people get mad at me for saying that but I'm like, I can say this. You know, I was one of the victims.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: With me now, Teresa Huizar, executive director of the National Children's Alliance.

Welcome.

TERESA HUIZAR, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL CHILDREN'S ALLIANCE. Thank you for having me, Carol.

COSTELLO: Well, help us understand this. Jessa told FOX her brother is not a child molester or a pedophile. How should we characterize him? HUIZAR: Well, I think we should characterize him at the time as a

youth with a sexual behavior problem. And I think that it's very difficult for us in cases of sibling abuse often victims have very mixed feelings about the person who offended against them. That's very common that they both love the person who offended against them and also know that what happened was wrong.

COSTELLO: I think it's confusing because Jessa also said she had a right to characterize him however she wishes and she does. But she said she has that right because she was his victim and the use of that word -- the use of that word victim is somewhat confusing.

HUIZAR: Well, I think you can just hear the mixed feelings she has even in the way that she's describing what happened to her. I think the other thing we should keep in mind is that there are other victims as well. Two individuals have come forward and decided to speak about their victimization but there are three others who have not done so and whose privacy I hope will be respected in that way.

But I think there's a real continuum of feeling about what happened to these individuals. If you saw the clips of the interview, in one, one sister seems very angry. The other seems very tearful. I think that it's very common to have that continuum of feeling about these cases and about these situations.

COSTELLO: I do admire both young women for appearing on television and for being willing to talk about this publicly. They are also going to have their own spin-off TV reality show. Should we worry about these young women?

HUIZAR: I think we definitely should. You know, they were essentially outed by the media as his victims and when that happened, people are often very ill prepared for the kind of attention that they're going to get and the fact that while we had hoped that everyone would be supportive of them, that in fact often there is still quite a bit of stigma that attaches to having these experiences and people are really judging them not only for what happened but also for speaking out now.

And so I hope that they're getting professional help as they really think about how they want to move forward in this way because they're going to experience the consequences of this media attention for some time.

COSTELLO: And a final question. Some are comparing Josh Duggar's actions to Lena Dunham. Dunham in her book wrote about examining her baby sister's body when she was 7 years old. Josh Duggar inappropriately touched five girls when he was 14 and 15 years old. Is it the same?

HUIZAR: Not at all. And I think we have to understand that when youth have sexual behavior problems, there's a real range and a continuum of behavior. And we shouldn't minimize it based on the age of the person who's doing this. Really we have to measure what happens on a sexual abuse case by the trauma of the victims and the effect on them. You know, I think people have rightly said that it was important for him to get help and that we need to recognize that youth with sexual behavioral problems can get help and get better while at the same time not at all minimizing the effect on the victims including his siblings.

[10:30:08] COSTELLO: Teresa Huizar, thanks so much for your insight this morning. I appreciate it.

HUIZAR: Thank you.

(END)