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WORLD RIGHT NOW WITH HALA GORANI
Massive hack of U.S. government data; Eight Malala attackers acquitted; Former Egyptian official accuses FIFA executive of asking for bribes; Public face of Saddam's regime dies at 79; Migrants found at U.K. port; MERS spreading in South Korea; Greece defiant after postponing IMF payment; One hundred three bodies recovered from China ship; Report criticizes American Red Cross efforts in Haiti; Pope Francis to visit Sarajevo; Release of FIFA file "United Passions"
Aired June 5, 2015 - 15:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:59:49] HALA GORANI, HOST: Tonight accusations are flying around the world as the U.S. and China trade barbs over a cyberattack affecting
millions. We'll look at who and what was compromised in what could be the biggest hack in history.
Then we're learning that eight of Malala's suspected attackers were acquitted. What went wrong in the case?
Also, a dam in (new report) says the American Red Cross has built just six houses in Haiti since the 2010 earthquake. Does what does the aid
agency do with the half a billion dollars that it raised? I'll ask a Red Cross official this hour.
Hello, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani. We're live at CNN London, and this THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.
Millions of current and former U.S. government employees are at risk in the wake of a massive cyberattack. Washington says their personal data
may have been stolen by Chinese hackers. Beijing is strongly denying the allegations. Athena Jones has our report.
ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT, WASHINGTON: The U.S. government is struggling to assess the damage, officials revealing possibly the biggest
cyberattack on the U.S. government ever breached their critical computer network.
Two distinct attacks hacked into the Federal system, sophisticated and undetectable for months, all the while stealing information from the
databases of virtually every government agency. Sensitive information from up to four million current and former Federal employees now in the hands of
hackers, including employees at the Department of Defense, the Social Security Administration and even potentially President Obama.
Officials say there could be millions more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHAWN HENRY, PRESIDENT, CROWDSTRIKE SERVICES: These networks are so vast they are really geographically dispersed and very, very difficult to
be able to protect. And the reality of it is you can't prevent these attacks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: The suspect, according to authorities, a super power, the People's Republic of China. According to officials, evidence points to
hackers working for the Chinese military who may be compiling a massive database of critical information on Americans.
Now Federal employees being cautioned to set (ph) their bank statements and get updated credit reports.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIE HARF, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT STRATEGIC ADVISOR: They continue to update our security, but it is a pretty significant challenge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: Hackers have targeted the American government before. Just this week investigators says Russia attacked the IRS. It made a hundred
thousand tax returns vulnerable to criminals.
GORANI: Athena Jones reporting there now. China, for its part, is objecting to the U.S. government allegations and says it too has been the
target of cyberattacks. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HONG LIE, CHINESE SPOKESMAN, MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS, REPUBLIC OF CHINA (through translator): China resolutely tackles cyberattack
activities in all forms. China itself is also a victim of cyberattacks. We are willing to have global cooperation in this field to build a peaceful
and safe, open and collaborative cyberspace.
We ask the United States not to be so skeptical and stop chasing the wind and clutching the shadow. But, instead, add more trust and
cooperating in this field.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: The spokesman for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in China there, responding to the allegations. This massive hack - of course, it
exposes some deep vulnerabilities inside the U.S. government's computer network. Let's talk about cybersecurity. I'm joined by Brian Kelly, the
chief security officer for the cloud (ph) computing company, Rackspace. Thanks for being with us.
BRIAN KELLY, CHIEF SECURITY OFFICER, RACKSPACE: Pleasure.
GORANI: First of all, when you heard the news - read the news - about this potential cyberattack affecting millions of U.S. government
employees, what went through your mind?
KELLY: Well, it's disturbing but, yet, not surprising.
GORANI: Why not surprising?
KELLY: Because these attacks are so persistent and sophisticated that, you know, many organizations, be it government or private sector
companies, are under constant attack. And they're very difficult to defend against.
GORANI: And this means that the computer system is vulnerable - vulnerable potentially to hackers that could recover then and steal
KELLY: Very much so.
GORANI: Yes. How does this work? I mean, how - you say you're not surprised. How would hackers go about trying to get into a system that is
supposed to be secure - that is the U.S. government?
KELLY: Yes. And many things have changed over the years. For many years, we were able to put kind of a perimeter around our organizations and
protect that perimeter. But again, given the sophistication of attacks, attackers now - really through email and social media type of attacks - no
longer need to come through the perimeter.
They come up through the center of the organization, if you will. And so the nature of their attacks - the way they - the way they conduct
those attacks is really giving them a level of access that - that we really didn't see years past.
GORANI: Now, we're talking four million Federal employees from nearly every government agency. They have to be sophisticated,
professional hackers that know what they're doing and try over and over again. Right?
KELLY: Not necessarily.
GORANI: Really? OK.
KELLY: Not necessarily. Yes. I think if - I think if you get access - you know one scenario is you troll through the databases, if you
will, find interesting looking files and just take whatever it is. So, you can't necessarily say that that was the target. Now, certainly in this
case, given the nature of the information that was - was stolen, you could make the case that it was specifically targeted.
GORANI: And basically (ph) what needs to be done - you have to secure obviously? But how do you do that?
KELLY: Right. You know - to layer defenses. There is no silver bullet. You need a number of different defenses. But, really, I think
we've got to be world class as organizations in our ability to detect and respond. Its ability to detect kind of anomalous activity, contain that
activity, characterize it and respond effectively - that's gotta be a number one priority. And then, with that, we'll build the defenses.
GORANI: All right. Well, they have their work cut out for them if, indeed, four million people's personal data was stolen in the attack.
Thanks very much, Brian Kelly, the chief security officer at Rackspace. Thanks for being with us.
KELLY: My pleasure.
GORANI: Now to Malala. She's, of course, the Pakistani girl who became a global icon and Nobel Peace Prize winner. But Malala (INAUDIBLE)
road to recognition as a champion of girls' education had a violent and gruesome beginning three years ago when she was shot on her way to school
and almost died.
We thought justice had been served to her attackers. But after reports that 10 men had been sentenced to lengthy prison terms, we are
learning that eight of them were acquitted. Take a look.
GORANI: This was the scene after a horrific attack on Pakistani school girl, Malala Yousafzai. It took nearly two years for police to
arrest the alleged attackers. Just this spring authorities in Pakistan announced that 10 militants had been sentenced to life in prison for the
attack on Malala.
But now new information from the Pakistani policy has revealed that only two men were, in fact, convicted of attempted murder. Eight of the
defendants were acquitted.
A spokesman for the Pakistani police told CNN that not enough evidence was produced before the court against those people. That's why
they were acquitted.
It's not clear why we're learning only now that just two people were convicted. The trial was held at a military facility rather than a court
and was always clouded in secrecy. The Pakistani government was under pressure to deliver justice for Malala, who had become a global hero.
At 14 years old, she was a champion for girls' education and an outspoken campaigner. She'd been riding a school bus when the militants
attacked. Gunshot wounds left her with serious head injuries, and she was rushed to the U.K. to receive specialist treatment.
She made a miraculous recovery, and Malala vowed to continue her campaign for universal education.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALALA YOUSAFZAI, PAKISTANI ACTIVIST FOR FEMALE EDUCATION AND NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WINNER: When my (INAUDIBLE), my priorities changed too. I had
two options. One was to remain silent and wait to be killed. And the second was to speak up and then be killed. I chose the second one. I
decided to speak up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Malala was made "Time's" person of the year and awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. But, despite being a global figure, the Pakistani
Taliban has vowed Malala is still a target.
GORANI: There you have it. We'll continue to follow that story, of course, as more information emerges from Pakistan.
Now, the fallout from the FIFA scandal into the weekend with an accusation that former FIFA executive, Jack Warner, told a senior Egyptian
sports officials that he'd have to pay money to win the bid to host the 2010 World Cup. Speaking on Egyptian television station ONTV (ph), former
Sports Minister, Ali Hadid Halal (ph), said that Jack Warner told the official that quote, "Each vote is worth a million dollars" unquote.
Warner is one of the officials being investigated by the FBI in connection with a series of alleged financial crimes. He is denying the
charges. However, tomorrow night football has a big night. You know, the reason FIFA even exists comes back into focus with the Champions League
final in Berlin, and that's where we find Amanda Davies from CNN "World Sport," and she joins me now live.
GORANI: Of course, it's the big final - the big match. Everybody's gonna be crowded around TV sets watching. But it's - it's bringing up -
I'm sure the big conversation, of course, surrounding this event will have a lot to do with FIFA as well.
AMANDA DAVIES, CNN "WORLD SPORT": Yes, absolutely, Hala. It would be naive - even though we're here in Berlin for the biggest club game in
world football - it would be naive to think that the FIFA scandal has suddenly been brushed under the carpet. The top officials at the European
game are all here in Berlin.
UEFA President, Michel Platini, arrived earlier on Friday. He's one of the men being talked about as a potential successor to Sepp Blatter. He
hasn't decided whether he's gonna throw his hat into the ring as yet. But we do understand that he's spending today and tomorrow having meetings with
the heads of the different national associations, speaking to them, finding out what they want from the future of FIFA, and whether they think that
they would want him to stand.
There's a big meeting on Friday night here in Berlin, as is traditional ahead of the Champions League final, where there will be a lot
of politicking and discussions in corners taking place. But in terms of the football, the two sides really couldn't be any better placed to try and
turn the attention back on to the football and the action.
It's the champions of Spain - Barcelona against the champions of Italy - Juventus. Both sides have already won two trophies this season.
Both are looking to complete what would be historic trebles (ph). The event that is back (ph) in the biggest game of club European football for
the first time in 12 years. They haven't actually won this event since 1996. They've really got a point to prove, but they're very much the
If you're to look at the betting statistics against the Barcelona side, it's really swept everybody away so far this season. They're looking
for their fourth Champions League crown. In just a decade, they have one of the most feared strike forces in the world - the trio of Naymar, Suarez
and Messi. They've scored 120 goals between them so far this season.
Naymar has spoken a little bit earlier. He says he sees it as the biggest game of his career. And there's no doubt that all eyes - first
temporarily at least - will be on the Olympic Stadium in Berlin on Saturday night.
GORANI: All right. Amanda Davies in Berlin with our coverage there. Thanks very much. A lot more to come tonight.
Serious allegations against one of the biggest charities to help Haiti after the devastating earthquake in 2010. The American Red Cross
says a critical, new report lacks balance, context and accuracy. We'll bring you the report and the Red Cross response.
Plus, this hour, a deadly virus is spreading in South Korea. Should there be worry in that part of the world? We'll find out more and get the
opinion of an expert after the break.
[23:59:47] GORANI: One of the most recognizable faces of a brutal dictatorship has died of a heart attack. Seventy-nine-year-old Tariz Aziz
was Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein's foreign minister and deputy prime minister over two decades. He died at a hospital southern Iraq after his
medical condition deteriorated in prison.
Nick Paton Walsh joins me now live from Baghdad with more on possibly just one of the most public ambassadors for the Saddam Hussein regime
during that dictatorship (INAUDIBLE). We saw a lot and heard a lot from Tariz Aziz.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: (INAUDIBLE) face that defines - call him what you will - a heart attack
killed him it seems today in a hospital near Nassaria (ph) after a lengthy period in jail in which his health was certainly deteriorating.
He was, after all, 79. But I think many seeing the pictures of Tariz Aziz again and remembering what he did for Saddam Hussein, initially the
man who said no, we will not draw our forces out of Iraq back in 1991 sparking operation Desert Storm, the first Gulf War. And the man who was
occasionally a diplomat who staved off U.S. military action and fundamentally failed to, in 2003, Hala, reminds you a very different time
in Iraq's history here, where arguably its problems were savage - brutal at times - but less complex than they stand today with the swirling mess of
sectarian violence that seemed to be more or less unleashed by the American present (ph) of the Ba'ath Party and the Iraqi Army in the early 2000s.
I think many people are still looking at this moment not because of the significance of Tariz Aziz no longer being with us, because he's not
figure who registers really in Iraq's messy politics now, but simply now reminds people of how far - I think it's fair to say - Iraq has really
fallen since even the repressive, tragic times of Saddam Hussein, Hala.
GORANI: Yes, and I find that interesting what you're saying, because we hear it sometimes with Syria, sometimes even with Egypt, where people
are - we're hopeful for a time. But some actually look back with some level of fondness. It's - it's odd that - to say - but to the simpler days
of the brutal dictatorship. What has been the reaction in Iraq to this? Have you spoken to any Iraqis with their' thoughts?
WALSH: Well, it's very human reaction (INAUDIBLE) to crave stability when currently you have chaos - to look back to a time when even if a
person in charge was a thug - that actually at least you didn't run the risk of going a normal hotel here and a car bomb going off in the car
(INAUDIBLE) the case just over a week ago now.
But I feel many Iraqis will perhaps with the passing Tariz Aziz as a reminder of quite how much this country has changed. And also bear in mind
too he was part - he was a Christian member of Saddam's cabinet - the only one, but part of a city elite who ruled over the Shia majority here. Now
we have very much the other issue here, where one of the most (ph) cities in the country arguably are ISIS. And that I think is a telling moment for
those who look quite where Iraq has traveled since the U.S. moved in 12 years ago.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Thanks very much, Nick Paton Walsh, in Baghdad mentioning Tariz Aziz is a Christian. Many people, even when you talk about him
today, weren't necessary aware of that. Thank you, Nick Paton Walsh.
The U.K. border forces made a shocking discovery when four trucks arrived from The Netherlands. Authorities say 68 migrants were locked in
containers aboard the trucks, including 15 children and two pregnant women. The discovery was made when the trucks were searched at Harwich
International Port north east of London on Thursday night.
There's growing concern in South Korea where the MERS virus is spreading. The Korean government says the disease has now reached a U.S.
base where a member of the Korean Air Fore tested positive. So far four people have died from MERS in South Korea, and there have been 41 confirmed
cases in all. Well over a thousand schools across the country have been closed to try to contain the outbreak.
Let's get an expert analysis on this. Our Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, joins me from CNN Center. Sanjay, should
there be concern here - four deaths - 41 cases reported?
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, look, when we talk about these particular infectious diseases, this particular
virus comes from the same family as - as the common flu virus. The difference is - is what you just said. You - you do seem to have a pretty
high mortality right now.
We - we don't know what the numbers really are, Hala, and I always caution that at the beginning of something like, you don't know, there may
be a lot of people out there who, in fact, have been infected and have very few or maybe no symptoms at all. So, this could be a much lower mortality
But I think we definitely have to pay attention to, and we're still getting an idea - more and more information about exactly how this is
moving from person to person and where it's coming from. It doesn't appear to come from somebody who is simply a carrier, meaning you won't spread it
unless you're sick.
But the source for this could potentially be camels - that's what they think - people who have become sick have had contact with camels. But
we're not still entirely sure. So there's some mystery to this still, Hala.
GORANI: And - and, so, you're saying in terms of transmission - I mean I know viewers watching this around the world travel a lot. They
might be planning a trip to that part of the world. I mean, it's - it's not - if only people who exhibit symptoms of the disease are contagious,
then I - should there be - I mean how can people be prepared, I suppose, if they're going there?
GUPTA: Yes. You know, if you distill that all down, it comes down to probably to the basic rules that we should all follow, and that is you
don't want to have contact with people who are sick. If some is sick, they're the ones who are potentially spread this.
Now, how exactly they got sick - did they have contact or were close to camels, for example, who may be the hosts for this virus? Still, that's
unclear. But if you're traveling in this part of the world and you come in contact with somebody who I sick, then you may have great cause for
concern. Still, unlike that you're going to get this.
If you haven't been in this part of the world and you develop symptoms of the flu, which is what the symptoms are going to be, you really
have no cause for concern, because this is not spreading widely around the world right now. So, they gotta figure out what's happening there in
Korea, obviously, in the Middle East as well. But right now the rest of the world doesn't have to say, oh look, this is definitely coming to us.
GORANI: All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Thanks very much for joining us on that.
Coming up on the WORLD RIGHT NOW the Greek Prime Minister slammed the proposal from lenders as absurd after delaying a payment to the IMF. I
speak to a member of parliament in Greece. We'll be right back.
[15:33:22] GORANI: Absurd is what Greek Prime Minister, Alexis Tsipras, thinks of the latest deal the country's creditors are putting on
the table. Despite the defiance in front of parliament, he also said Greece is still searching for a compromise. That did not stop traders from
hammering the Athens Stock Exchange today. It was down nearly five percent over the session. The country's banks are taking a hit once again.
Earlier I spoke with Costas Lapavitsas just before the Greek parliament (INAUDIBLE). He's a member of parliament. He's from the same
party as the prime minister, and he has some very interesting things to say about where he thinks Greece should be headed. I spoke with him about his
country's defiant mood in the face of its creditors.
COSTAS LAPAVITSAS, GREEK MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, SYRIZA: The fact that Greece has not paid the installment to IMF today is an indication that the
country is taking a defiant attitude, and I think this is right.
GORANI: Well, it's bundled its payments. It's not like it's not planning on paying its IMF commitment. It's bundled them to pay them all
at once at the end of the month.
LAPAVITSAS: That's correct.
LAPAVITSAS: However - however, it still is an act of defiance. It still is an act that indicates that this government has limits to how far
back it will go, and it will not be completely pushed over.
GORANI: Is it not an act that indicates that it just doesn't have the funds right now?
LAPAVITSAS: Like I said just a minute ago, funds are tight. Greece is very short of liquidity due to the tender (ph) care of the lenders, who
made sure that liquidity is not available. However, the money was there to pay today, and the government chose not to do so.
GORANI: Now, one of the things you've written in an editorial opinion piece in "The Guardian" recently was we are deluded to think we can
achieve real change within the single currency. You still believe that?
LAPAVITSAS: Absolutely. I think events during the last few days confirm this analysis completely. Tsipras (ph) came to power with a
program that was quite actually moderate. It was moderate gainism (ph), which Greece badly needs.
And the lenders, the monetary unions, essentially, made it impossible for Tsipras (ph) to apply this program. And they're demanding the country
go back to the policies that have been applied the last five years. These policies have ruined Greece. Greece must not go back to those.
GORANI: So you think that - and - and I've read that in some interviews you've given that you believe Greece should withdraw from Euro
and re-introduce the drachma. Do you still also believe that that's the right course of action?
LAPAVITSAS: I think that's emerging very clearly as the dilemma the country has in front of it, because the lenders are trying to say,
basically, if you wanna stay in the Euro, you've got to accept austerity policies and you've got to accept these very harsh policies they are
proposing to us. I think that would be a disaster. And, therefore, the country must consider very seriously the exit option which would allow it
to follow a different path and to revive its economy.
GORANI: But, as the partners in the Eurozone are saying, look, you - you - the country overspent, the country has borrowed money, it needs to
repay these loans, you know. Germany has the - the loudest voice in this, because it's the country owed the most money by Greece. So, aren't they
entitled to - to want to be - some sort of plan in order to get Greece out its current situation and get some of these loans repaid?
LAPAVITSAS: If - if only they had a plan of this nature. The plan of the lenders is basically ruining the country. The policies applied to
Greece the last five years have been an unmitigated disaster. A simple look at the figures will tell you so.
These policies were designed to rescue the banks - German and French banks. They didn't pay much attention to what would happen to the Greek
economy. They ruined the Greek economy. And, if there's any sense in Europe - any sense left in Europe - so-called partners should realize this
and actually take some - adopt some policies that will help the Greek economy instead of insisting on more austerity, tax cuts, tax increases,
and so on.
GORANI: So, what happens then? June 30th is a pretty hard deadline here before the lenders release another trunch (ph) of money - over seven
billion euros. If the government continues to say we will not accept the proposals, not come to an agreement, do you foresee a situation in which
Greece will default then on some of its payments come July?
LAPAVITSAS: The proposals by the lenders are unacceptable to the government, to cities (ph) and to the Greek people. Greece cannot go back
to these policies. It has enough sense not to do so. (INAUDIBLE) they will be cutting its own throats if they did that. So, if the lenders
insist on these policies - GORANI: Yes?
LAPAVITSAS: - then, yes, my own view would be that Greece should default and consider its other options. There are people in this country
who know how to handle exit from the Monetary Union.
GORANI: Well, there you have it from Mr. Lapavitsas (ph), MP - Costas Lapavitsas telling me earlier he thinks jumping out of the Eurozone
and re-introducing the drachma might not be such a bad for Greece after all.
World news headlines are just ahead plus a new report says the American Red Cross raised half a billion dollars for Haiti but built only
six permanent homes after the massive earthquake there. We'll speak to a Red Cross official about the group's relief efforts as well as the co-
author of that report. Stay with us.
[23:56:24] GORANI: Welcome back. A look at our top stories this hour.
The U.S. government says Chinese hackers may have stolen personal data from four million current and former Federal employees. China says
the accusation is irresponsible. But it could be the largest ever breach of the U.S. government's computer system.
Pakistani police say eight out of the 10 people that were believed to have been sentenced for the attack on Malala Yousafzai were, in fact,
acquitted. It now turns out that just two people were sentenced to life because there was quote "not enough evidence" to convict the other eight.
Chinese media say 103 bodies have now been recovered from the capsized Eastern Star cruise. Hundreds more are expected to be found after
the ship was turned upright on the Yangtze River on Friday.
Many people reach into their pockets to help those in need after a catastrophic natural disaster. That's exactly what happened in 2010 after
a powerful earthquake struck Haiti, the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. Devastating pictures like these led millions of people to
donate toward relief efforts. And the need was staggering.
The quake killed as many as 316,000 people - wounded another 300,000 - and left some one and a half million people without a home.
Now, a new report is leveling serious allegations against the American Red Cross. It raised nearly half a billion dollars to help Haiti.
ProPublica, which calls itself an independent, non-profit newsroom, co- authored the report with NPR, National Public Radio in the United States.
The report says, despite the outpouring of donations, the American Red Cross built only six permanent homes in Haiti. It accuses the charity
of squandering money, botching the delivery of aid, and lacking the expertise to carry out its own projects.
The American Red Cross, for its part, issued a statement rejecting the allegations. It says in part quote, "These funds have helped build and
operate eight hospitals and clinics, stem a deadly cholera outbreak, provide clean and sanitation and move more than a hundred thousand people
out of makeshift tents into safe and improved housing."
Now this report makes some serious accusations. So we wanted to not only hear from one of the reporters behind, but also give the Red Cross a
chance to respond. I'm joined now by ProPublica's Justin Elliott, who co- authored the report. He's in New York. And David Meltzer, general counsel and chief international officer of the American Red Cross. Thanks to both
of you for being with us.
GORANI: Justin, I wanna start with you before we get the response from David Meltzer in Washington. Now, in your report, you found that all
of these donations ended up not necessarily materializing in the form of new housing or aid that helped Haitians. Tell us a little bit about what
you found on the ground.
JUSTIN ELLIOTT, PROPUBLICA REPORTER: Sure. So our - our story is based on reporting on the ground in Haiti, but also interviews of more than
10 current and former Red Cross - American Red Cross staffers, and also internal documents that we obtained and posted on our site.
And what we found was - while some of the money certainly was spent on delivering aid and on worthy projects, a lot of it was wasted, promises
were broken, particularly in the area of housing. And really a lot of people that worked on the program, some of whom we quote on the record in
our story, were disappointed.
In one case, we published a memo where the head of the program actually said a couple years into it, we're failing in Haiti - there's (ph)
internal issues that have gone unaddressed here. So, what we found - what we're reporting is really this is a troubled effort.
GORANI: And David Meltzer, one of the examples that Justin and his co-author from NPR used is a project in Kampesh, where there was even a Red
Cross logo painted on one of the walls there that promised new housing and, in fact, not a single home was built there. Why not? What was going on in
Haiti at that time that really this didn't materialize into new homes as promised for people there?
DAVID MELTZER, GENERAL COUNSEL AND CHIEF INTERNATIONAL OFFICER, AMERICAN RED CROSS: So, we promised safe, durable housing for the people
of Haiti for a hundred thousand, and we have delivered that. In Kampesh, which is a terribly affected urban community in the heart of Port-au-Prince
- is a wonderful piece of open land upon which we had plans to build new homes. Unfortunately, the government of Haiti could not provide clear
title to that land.
So, we very much adapted our plans, and we are now repairing 600 homes - strengthen them against future earthquakes and also providing water
and sanitation and lighting and roads and pathways.
When I first traveled into this neighborhood a few years ago as part of my 20 or trips, it was treacherous to walk in this neighborhood. Now,
with - with safe walkways, the people can get to water that we are providing in a well, and their lives are very much improved.
GORANI: Well, so, Justin, you're hearing from David Meltzer there of the American Red Cross saying that, in fact, lives were improved thanks to
money spent by the American Red Cross. Did you not find that in your reporting in Haiti?
ELLIOTT: There's no question that some of the money that the American Red Cross raised, as I said before, went to worthy projects. And
David's also right that a lot of people have run into trouble trying to build in Haiti. There's (ph) serious legal issues around land title.
However, our reporting found that other groups besides the American Red Cross were able to build more than 9,000 permanent new homes compared
to six by the American Red Cross. Specifically in Kampesh, my reporting partner and I went there a few months ago. We read about the project on
the American Red Cross Web site. And, frankly, we were expecting to find a good project - this is something they had on their Web site.
But very quickly, when we started walking around and talking to people in the neighborhood, we met a group of men who run a local community
group that works with the American Cross, and they were very angry, very frustrated. They said the American Red Cross had showed up in 2011, 2012
making big promises about building new homes - really transforming the neighborhood. And now three years later that really hasn't happened, and
they're very, very frustrated.
GORANI: And - and, David, how do you respond to that, because there's also a question about - a question of transparency regarding the
American Red Cross? There are very broad categories of spending in Haiti. But really I haven't seen an instance where the Red Cross has been able to
point to a neighborhood and say we built those homes - we improved this road. So how do you address that?
MELTZER: Certainly our objective is to provide safe housing for people, along with clean water and heath care and whole range of other
assistance. In the area of housing, we have spent well over a hundred million dollars, providing safe housing, including emergency shelters in
the days after the earthquake.
So, I understand Justin spent a couple of days there. I've spent, collectively, weeks in Haiti. And, frankly, the experience that he reports
is not like anything I have seen. And, in fact, people I spoke to when I was most recently in Haiti have said that they - they very much are happy.
And we would invite any reporter to go down and view the community. What you see is a new road, new water sources, new pathways, homes being
repaired, homes being strengthened. So that - that is very much the experience in that community.
GORANI: But you do acknowledge that in an area like Kampesh, where promises were made, for whatever reason the millions of dollars that were
pledged to the residents there that that never really came to fruition? I mean that is an acknowledgement from the American Red Cross. Is that
MELTZER: No, it actually is not. The fact of the matter is we have pledged a total of $24 million for not just this Kampesh community but six
other surrounding communities. And that money is fully committed and will be entirely spent. So, very much - we're very proud of our efforts, not
just in Kampesh, but throughout Port-au-Prince.
GORANI: Justin, you spoke to the residents there, and they're reacting differently, according to your reporting.
ELLIOTT: The people we spoke to in Kampesh were actually the people that run a community group that's called the Community Development Platform
that was set up by the Red Cross. So it wasn't sort of just random people on the street. It was people that have worked with the Red Cross. And
they're very frustrated. If you read my story on ProPublica or listen to the radio version, you can - you can hear them talking.
In terms of the money being spent, it's - it's very difficult with that project and in general to assess that from the outside because,
unfortunately, we haven't been able to get from the American Red Cross detailed financial breakdowns for that project - how the money was spent
or, in fact, for the entire nearly half billion dollars that was donated for Haiti.
GORANI: Where can we find, David, more detail on how the American Red Cross has spent its money in Haiti, because we see sort of 170 million
plus for housing? But that doesn't say where, when, what kind of housing, how many people were helped, et cetera, specifically linked to a line item
in - in an expenditure spreadsheet, if that makes sense. Where can we find that information?
MELTZER: So, on redcross.org/Haiti, there is a wealth of information, not just provides not only the sector like housing that - that
you have up on the screen, but we also provide how much money has been spent and committed in each of those categories. We've reported on the
number of people that have been benefitted by these programs. We've reported on who our partners are. So we believe there's a wealth of
information out there already.
GORANI: But - but there's no - I mean can you point to specific projects I guess is my question where you say this street, this
neighborhood was rebuilt, was improved with American Red Cross money?
MELTZER: We can certainly point, and we have dedicated information on this Lamika (ph) Project of which Kampesh is one part of the program.
GORANI: But, Justin, you saying you didn't find that when you went - (INAUDIBLE) investigated American Red Cross spending with - pointing to
ELLIOTT: Yes. What - what I can tell you is - when - when we were down in Haiti, we talked to a number of Haitian government officials,
including the former prime minister, Jean-Max Bellerive, who was the prime minister at the time of the earthquake and after.
And it was - this wasn't just something that we were sort of concerned about and interested in. The former prime minister of Haiti said
that, you know, he wanted to see a breakdown of American Red Cross projects - sort of a list of projects - and how much money was going to each one and
what had happened. And that's not something he's ever been able to see.
So, if you're trying to sort of assess the program and you just have a handful of categories with dollar figures next to them, it's - it's
difficult to know exactly where to look beyond sort of a few selected examples.
And, actually, the reason we went to Kampesh originally was that is featured on the American Red Cross Web site. And that's why, when we went
there, we were expecting to find people who were satisfied and happy with the work that had been done. But we found something very different.
GORANI: One of the things, Justin, in the ProPublica piece and also in the NPR report, David, I'm gonna ask you this - that, essentially, the
American Red Cross is mired in administrative inefficiency - that you have even issues with some cultural insensitivity picked up in some internal
emails - mismanagement on the ground. Too much outsourcing where you basically trust other organizations to carry out some of the promised work.
Is any of that something you acknowledge?
MELTZER: Absolutely disagree with that categorization. So, with partners, there are many partners such as the World Food Programme that
have the resources, the standing army if you will, to deliver food. And certainly the American public donated a lot of money to the World Food
But a lot of the resources were donated to us. And so, in the early days when people were literally hungry - on the streets - we donated a lot
of money to the World Food Programme to deliver necessary food assistance. So, partnership is very much the model for a lot of the work the entire
We partnered with Sean Penn's charity, J/P HRO, to remove rubble. These are critical resources that are needed. We maintain a work force to
have strict oversight over these partners to make sure that they are utilizing our donor funds efficiently, effectively for the benefit of the
people of Haiti.
GORANI: But, David, you don't see just a few homes built with about half a billion dollars in donations as a failure?
MELTZER: I see providing homes as a success for over a hundred thousand people. Just in the last couple of days the U.S. government
General Accountability Office published a study highly critical of one program, a government program, designed to provide brand new homes, which
was found to be behind schedule by two years, having exceeded budget by 300 percent, and reduced the number of homes.
So, had we waited for land to become available, as the article suggest we should have, we'd still be waiting and many more people would be
living underneath terrible circumstances underneath those tarps. And, as humanitarians, it's our obligation to alleviate suffering as effectively
and quickly as possible. And waiting around for land to be cleared for permanent homes, we determined, ultimately, despite our sincere desire to
build new homes, was not the best way to spend our donor dollars and help people in Haiti.
GORANI: All right. Justin Elliott of ProPublica, we really appreciate your time. David Meltzer of the American Red Cross thanks for
joining us from Washington. Thanks to both of you -
MELTZER: Thank you.
GORANI: - for an important and interesting discussion. Several years since that earthquake hit, and so many people still in need in Haiti.
We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back.
[15:51:52] GORANI: Pope Francis heads to Bosnia-Herzegovina Saturday, bearing a message of reconciliation in a country divided along
religious and ethnic lines. It's been two decades since the civil war there ended claiming a hundred thousand lives. Tensions remain, however.
CNNs Nic Robertson has more on the Pope's visit and how the region has changed.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Pope Francis arrives here Sarajevo Airport Saturday morning. It's 20 years now since
the Dayton peace deal ended the war here.
Bosnia's Muslims, Eastern Orthodox Serbs, and Croatian Catholics agreed to stop their fighting. Back then the city was under siege. The
U.N. ran the airport. Eight (ph) were targets. The terminal got shot and shelled.
Back then I was a producer, and the drive Pope Francis will take to Sarajevo City was one of the scariest things we used to do. Back then the
road crossed over the front line - through no-man's land - sometimes gambling with your life.
There was a Serbian sniper position right around here. Some people never even made it into the city. In the summer of 1992, ABC producer,
David Kaplan, was shot and killed right here. And I remember in a 14-day period that summer (INAUDIBLE) was either shot or shelled, killed or
But today much has changed. The pope will pass these shiny new buildings - many here hoping he will bring more progress. So, when the
pope comes, what do you want to hear him say? What's his message that you want to hear?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want the peace between Muslims and other religions, and that's it. I want to stop war and a -
ROBERTSON: Reminders of the war are still here. This building's
untouched, but many, like the hotel here, have been rebuilt during the war. This road here became known as sniper alley. CNN Camerawoman, Margaret
Moth, was shot just over there.
It was a desolate place. The U.N. in armored gear calls civilians left shot at the roadside - snipers always looking for easy prey. Mortars
could land any place, any time. That one landed right here, just outside the TV station where we had our offices. And driving further into the
city, it became even more dangerous.
At the same intersection today no one's afraid of being shot. They do have really serious concerns about where the peace they have is going,
about nationalist politicians and about corruption.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean we have a lot of politicians like corruption (ph) and everything. So we don't - we can't, I mean, if someone
sent us money from other countries, I mean, the take it and that's it.
ROBERTSON: And the pope can't help sort this out?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think so.
ROBERTSON: The pope is coming to encourage peaceful coexistence he says. So much blood was spilled here. This city alone - more than 11,000
killed. That's where we used to live - the Holiday Inn - right on sniper alley - right by the front line - back then, shell-riddled by Serb tanks.
Corridors, rooms smashed - often no water. Right outside, the city was being destroyed. The parliament building shelled, shot and on fire.
Today the same view from my room - the parliament fully repaired. The building is being used to govern Bosnia again. This is right where the
war started in 1992. No one dared walk down here. Now, it's beginning to look like a modern metropolis. But looks here are deceiving.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty years later we are still suffering here, and I don't think - I can't (ph) see a future here -
ROBERTSON: You can't see a future?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have children (ph), and I still can't see any future for them.
ROBERTSON: The last time a pope visited Sarajevo was two years after the war - 1997 - was Pope John Paul II, is remembered by a statue. Pope
Francis wants his legacy to be more than symbolic. He wants real reconciliation - real breaking (ph) of boundaries for a real peace. It's
gonna be a challenge.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Sarajevo, Bosnia-Herzegovina.
GORANI: Coming up - after (ph) real-life drama on the big screen. We'll have more on a film by FIFA. We'll be right back.
[23:59:41] GORANI: Well, this is the story that keeps on giving. Each day brings new scandal for FIFA. So, it's fair to say football's
governing body would hope a movie it sponsored got some positive attention. Here's a short clip from "United Passions" that debuted in the U.S.
(VIDEO CLIP - MOVIE CLIP)
GORANI: That is Tim Roth as Sepp Blatter. What's the verdict? I took a look at some of the reviews online, and let me just say this - not
good. Let's ask CNNs, Clare Sebastian. She went to the premier in New York. So, what was the reaction from the crowd - the viewers?
CLARE SENASTIAN, CNN PRODUCER: Hala, it's better to say the reaction was almost non-existent. We turned up at (ph) - the one New York movie
theater that's showing this film - it was after (ph) when the first showing started, and one person turned up. He was an Irish football. He said he
was just curious. As he said, the critics at (ph) university panned this film.
There was a comment in the Hollywood report that described it as a cringe-worthy self-aggrandizing affair. Others have called it propaganda -
a vanity project.
I spoke to one critic today who said they - it was something you might see shown at a corporate retreat. It's something for the
organization, by the organization. And more than a little awkward coming after the two weeks they've had, Hala.
GORANI: And what did you think - you watched it, yes? You sat through the whole thing?
SEBASTIAN: Some of it.
GORANI: Some of it. OK. Well, thanks for being honest. What did you think of it?
SEBASTIAN: Well, I think it's as you say. It's very much a glorification of the past hundred years of FIFAs history. It's starts -
it's very chronological. It's start around 1900 and skips through various decades. So you see the start of the organization in 1900. You see the
first World Cup in 1930. Jules Rimet played by Gerard Depardieu. We have this all-star cast.
And eventually you get up to the present day - the era of Sepp Blatter. And this is where it gets really awkward. You see Sepp Blatter
played by Tim Roth. There are moments in the film when he - he talks about ethics - about how any breach of ethics will be severely punished. So, as
I said, very much ironic given the events of recent weeks.
GORANI: I wonder if Tim Roth is regretting that particular career move today. Thanks very much - Clare Sebastian in New York.
This has been THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. I'm Hala Gorani. Thanks for watching. "Quest Mean Business" is next.