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Two Murderers Escape From Prison; Facebook Posts of Boston Terror Suspect Emerge; Feds: China Believed To Be Culprit In Hack; Increase in Violent Crime Worries Some Cities; American Pharaoh Going for Triple Crown; Jeb Bush Absent in Iowa; Will Americans Vote for Clinton Who Polls Show Majority Think Is Untrustworthy; Baltimore Prosecutor Wants Freddie Gray Autopsy Results Kept from Public; Obama Gives Emotional Eulogy for Beau Biden. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired June 06, 2015 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:12] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Five o'clock Eastern. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

We begin this hour with a potentially dangerous story developing right now in Upstate New York. There's a manhunt underway for two convicted murderers who have escaped from prison. The man broke out of the Clinton Correctional Facility. That is in Dannemora in New York. They are described as dangerous. Take a listen to Governor Andrew Cuomo.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: These are two dangerous individuals, one was incarcerated for killing a sheriff, so these are dangerous people. And they are nothing to be trifled with and we want to make sure that they don't inflict anymore pain or any more harm on any New Yorkers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: CNN Polo Sandoval is covering the development for us. Also with us, CNN law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes. Paulo, let me begin with you. What do we know about this two people?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Poppy, we have a truly remarkable scene right now playing in Upstate New York. Heavily armed police officers right now setting up road blocks as they try to search as many vehicles as they can, try to look for these two individuals. We want you to take very close look at these two bulks of police are currently searching for Richard Matt and David Sweat are the two men that essentially broke out of prison earlier this morning at a facility there in Northern, New York. Staff there at the prison noticed them missing during a head count early this morning.

Matt a convicted cop killer and kidnapper serving up to life in prison for beating a man to death. And as for Sweat is convicted also for some other very serious charges here. Now, this escape plot itself has been described as extremely sophisticated, very elaborate. The duo likely cut a hole out of the metal plating that's essentially behind their cells. They crawled down a six story catwalk and then used power tools to cut steel pipes and walls. New York Governor Andrew Cuomo who actually retraced some of the steps Poppy that these guys did earlier this morning. Offering an inside look at this process. He does say that they eventually made their way to a manhole cover just outside the prison perimeter and then eventually made right there.

HARLOW: Straight out of the movies.

SANDOVAL: It really is. And the scenes that are playing out right now and what's perhaps more interesting is how they tried to throw off the guards here. They left some clothes in their bunk. Listen to what the Governor said a few moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: They were not actual dummies, but they had clothing on and it looked like people sleeping in the bunks with a sweat shirt hoodie on which is quite usual.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANDOVAL: Last thing I should mention, Poppy, staff have accounted for all of the power tools, all of the equipment they are in house. The next step will be to take a closer look at some of these outside contractors which essentially bring their own equipment to see if that could potentially lead to a potential break in the case. The main priority, finding these two guys.

HARLOW: Absolutely. Dangerous and convicted murderers, one of them killing a police officer. Tom Fuentes, former FBI, you're looking at this situation. You've got two men in the loose near the Canadian border, how does that change things?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, not only that Poppy but you have so much of a head start. You know, these guys could be in Canada as we speak, you know, being that close to the border. So well planned. They must have had somebody come and pick them up, somewhere along the line. So, they had a vehicle to take them somewhere. They are probably re-armed, you know, the way they were before they went to jail and were apprehended.

So, they would be extremely dangerous. Heavily armed, probably. And a long way from the Clinton Correctional Center. And that's where the problem comes in. It's not like they just escaped and you can track them and put aircraft in the sky and check the woods. They have way too much of a head start.

HARLOW: How much does it increase the stakes that one of these is someone who killed a police officer?

FUENTES: Well, the stakes are that they will be more desperate. So, you're likely to have them if they get desperate to do a carjacking, to a home invasion for safe-haven, hold people hostage. It will make it very dangerous for anybody in the public that might encounter them because essentially they have nothing to lose in term of sentencing and, you know, what they are charged with in the past. So the fact that they've killed police already means they have no qualms about killing anybody.

HARLOW: Wow! Polo reported they apparently used these power tools but they are all accounted for. How do they even get their hands on these?

FUENTES: Well, I don't know. I don't know how nobody hears that. You're using power tools and nobody hears the noise especially because it would be coming from close to their cells. It's not like somebody is building a new fence outside the yard or something. So, that's a very good question. I think, you know, it does make you wonder if they had inside help, if they corrupted an inside guard or a group of guards to let them do it, to give them their way out. So there will be a lot to look into in this case.

HARLOW: We will be watching.

SANDOVAL: Just to point out, it was about a seven hour gap from the last time guards had their visual on them yesterday at 10:30 p.m. and then at 5:30 a.m. this morning is when they essentially noticed that they did in fact make a break for it.

[17:05:06] HARLOW: So, as Tom said, they have a long head start on the authorities.

All right. Tom, thank you very much. Well, the public also will get a look, a look soon at the surveillance video of the fatal shooting of a knife wielding man who police say was radicalized by ISIS and who wanted to behead Islam critic Pamela Geller and also a man who plotted to kill police officers. Now, it turns out, as early as 2012 this man, Usaama Rahim had been thinking about targeting law enforcement officers.

CNN's Pamela Brown has more on this developing story and new allegations about possibly a third individual connected.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Indications, Usaama Rahim became suspicious the FBI was on to him in 2012 and had bugged his phone. On Facebook under an alias Abdur-Rahim Al-Amreeki, he wrote I heard some clicking noises on my phone. He said an FBI agent called him and told him, sir, we have some allegations regarding you. I came by your house a few times but kept missing you. Law enforcement officials confirmed Rahim who police shot and killed in Boston on Tuesday had been on the FBI's radar for the past couple of years. They say he met on a Rhode Island Beach Sunday with his nephew David Wright and unnamed 24-year-old man. That man lives here in Rhode Island with his parents. Police searched the home Wednesday and the law enforcement source tells CNN agents have spoken with him but he's not been arrested. The three allegedly plotted to behead activist Pamela Geller in New York before Rahim changed his plan and decided to attack police officers in Massachusetts on Tuesday, according to the FBI.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: The trick of this is frankly let the person get close enough so that they are taking a substantial step forward that their efforts, their actions are prosecutable.

BROWN: CNN communicated with the third individual through Twitter back in March as part of reporting on Americans who follow Jihadists. He indicated he was in touch with terrorists online including with ISIS. He claimed that an alleged ISIS fighter was telling him to come to Syria to fight with the terrorists group. This as CNN is learning known ISIS members overseas were communicating through peer to peer communication with at least one of the three men, encouraging a terrorist attack at the U.S. Court records showed Rahim bought three military knives on Amazon that were delivered to him in the last week.

WILLIAM EVANS, BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: This individual coming --

BROWN: Boston Police Commissioner William Evans believes he intended to behead officers.

EVANS: When they have the knives and what's happened across the country and across the world, the beheading of military and police officers we can insinuate that that's why they had the knives and based on their comment that's what we believe they were up to.

BROWN: We have learned the family of Rahim has viewed the surveillance video showing the shooting after those five officers approached him at the parking lot. The family through their attorney disputes that he had anything to do with ISIS.

Pamela Brown, CNN, Boston.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Pamela, thank you. We're also learning new information today about a staggering data breach that spanned decades, personal sensitive information of four million Americans, four million federal employees is at risk. The head of the House Intelligence Committee weighs in next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:11:31] HARLOW: New details on what may be the biggest cyber- attack in U.S. history. We're learning that the data breach spanned three decades and the culprit according to authorities they believe, they believe is China. Personal data on four million workers has been stolen, U.S. officials telling Reuters the data breach includes security clearance information, background checks dating back to 1985 and it took the U.S. government four months to realize that this information had been stolen.

Earlier I spoke with Congressman Adam Schiff, he is the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee and I asked him why it took the government so long to find out why this happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), RANKING MEMBER INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Not only did we not prevent this attack from taking place in the first place but it took us quite a while to even learn about the breach. OPM is utilizing new software defenses to try to prevent these attacks and determine when they have taken place but that wasn't fully implemented and not in time and I'm not sure that was even adequate to begin with. So, it's a big problem, it's a huge data breach and if the U.S. government can't protect itself I'm sure a lot of the private sector thinks what hope is there for their defenses.

HARLOW: Well, what's interesting you bring that up, we're actually seeing the private sector perhaps doing more. I mean, the big corporations, big banks like JP Morgan Chase has literally thrown thousands of employees and millions and millions of dollars into cyber security after the big hacks we've seen in the last year. I wonder if you think the U.S. government is not doing enough on that front and that is why things like this happen.

SCHIFF: Well, we're certainly spending a fortune on our cyber- defenses. But I think one of the key challenges here is, this is a very asymmetric battlefield where it's a lot easier and more cost effective to be on the attack than it is on the defense. Because after all you only need one open door, one vulnerability and your system is compromised. So it's hard. I don't want to overstate the difficulty. But nonetheless we spent billions of dollars trying to address this problem and still with attacks on OPM, on the White House, on State Department, on the IRS plainly we're not doing enough or not doing it smart enough to prevent these kinds of attacks.

HARLOW: Do you believe that this was carried out by the Chinese government?

SCHIFF: Well, one area that I think we have gotten a lot better at and that is attribution of attack. So, I think we're really narrowing in on who is the responsible party. At this point I'm not permitted to comment on it. But this was a very sophisticated attack, involving a massive amount of data and if this were simply a matter of theft for purposes of I.D. fraud we would probably have seen that information on the black market. So it may be more sophisticated an attack than that and this something we're investigating.

HARLOW: People, I mean, we're talking about four million Americans who work for or worked for the U.S. government from 1985 on. What do they do now?

SCHIFF: Well, those employees are going to be contacted by OPM to let them know what steps that they should take. That there will be access to a credit review and identity theft review package that they can implement for a year two. They will be instructed to change their passwords and take other precautions and what to look for in case their personal information was compromised. But if this wasn't simply about theft and it was about exploring vulnerabilities that's going to be much harder to prepare the workforce for because that may mean that foreign actors will have information about their personal lives, it also may mean that they can conduct further spear fishing attacks by utilizing some of this personal data against them.

HARLOW: Right. Right. Congressman Adam Schiff, thank you very much.

SCHIFF: Thanks, Poppy. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Well, coming up the murder rates skyrocketing in some major cities across the country. Take a look at those numbers from Milwaukee to St. Louis, Chicago, Baltimore, New York, you name it. Is a new crime wave on the horizon? We will discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:19:08] HARLOW: The numbers are staggering. A spike in violent crimes in several major American cities and the big question is, why is this happening? What is driving this?

CNN's Miguel Marquez reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Protest and rioting in Baltimore and Ferguson. Anti-police demonstrations from New York to California and now worrying indications violence and deadly crime in some places on the rise. In New York a brazen scene, police now seeking this man who fired off several round in Brooklyn's Bushwick neighborhood. A 50-year-old man shot twice but survived. And one of the nation's latest murders, this weekend a 23-year-old from the Bronx in New York.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I saw the brother on the floor with a big hole where his heart should have been, just pumping blood.

MARQUEZ: Police grappling with increased crime worse in places like Baltimore that has seen so much protest and violence in recent weeks. The month of May in Baltimore, the deadliest in 40 years. In Houston, murders up 45 percent year to year. In Chicago where total crime is down, murders and shootings up. In New York, where crime overall is also down, murders up nearly 20 percent. In Milwaukee says the "Wall Street Journal," murders up a staggering 180 percent this year. The paper also says in Los Angeles crime is down but in the South Central precinct shootings up 100 percent. And in St. Louis next door to Ferguson, Missouri, the "Post-Dispatch" reports 70 homicides this year that's up more than 30 percent. Peter Moskos is a former Baltimore cop and current professor of policing.

PETER MOSKOS, FORMER BALTIMORE POLICE OFFICER: If there's a national mood that starts to see police as the bad guys, police as the enemy responsible for these problems, it makes it a hell of a lot harder to police. One way to deal with that they stop policing those people.

MARQUEZ: One example, New York City has sharply limited the controversial police tactic of stop-and-frisk. At its height in 2011 nearly 700,000 mostly black and Latinos stopped and search. So far this year just over 11,000 total but gun crimes in New York now up. Are increases in gun crimes tied to a sharp decrease in stop-and- frisk?

MOSKOS: Entirely possible that stopping hundreds of thousands of people which has moral and constitutional and legal questions but it's quite possible that has a strong deterrent effect on people carrying guns. If we give that up and people start dying again then we have to come up with a plan B.

MARQUEZ: Miguel Marquez, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Let's talk about this. And I'm joined now by Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke and also retired Los Angeles Police Sergeant Cheryl Dorsey. Thank you for being here.

And Sheriff Clarke, let me begin with you. You heard it in Miguel's piece violent crime is on the rise in a number of big U.S. cities. Your city Milwaukee murder is up 180 percent. From a year ago. Some critics say as you just heard in the piece the police are afraid to do their job in some cases. Do you buy that?

SHERIFF DAVID CLARKE, MILWAUKEE COUNTY: Not at all. You know, the police are damned if they, damned if they don't. It's always the fault of the police in the city of Milwaukee. It's the manifestation of this failed social engineering experiment that's masqueraded itself as sentencing reform, prison reform, criminal justice reform have been predicted for years, where a revolving door has been created on the justice system where the police arrest career criminals, violent career criminals, get them in the system and the system spits them back out into these depressed areas, into these struggling areas to reoffend and commit more crime. You couple that with fact that there's less assertive, less self-initiated pro-active policing because of the constant bashing and that's what we're seeing what we're seeing today.

HARLOW: So, we had the Milwaukee D.A. who I know leads that program you just criticized. And I know that you two do not agree on what the right way is to handle the criminal justice system in Milwaukee. We had him on the program talking about that program last week. Cheryl, to you, you were a detective in L.A., right? Shootings are up 100 percent in L.A. from a year ago. What do you attribute that to in Los Angeles?

CHERYL DORSEY, RETIRED LOS ANGELES POLICE SERGEANT: Well, you know, I don't know what the cause and effect is. But what will I tell you is that if the inference is that crime is up because officers are not doing their job then I have no patience for that kind of activity because understand that people who choose to be police officers are not plugged from obscurity and placed in those positions. And so what is going on is inherent. Officers take that position knowingly and well informed about the problems that are facing you as an officer day-to-day, and so you don't get to not do your job. And if you're found not doing it, then you should be removed.

HARLOW: And Sheriff Clarke says, look, that is not the case. Whatsoever. Let me ask you this Sheriff Clark. Because so much of the discussion around policing America's cities in the last year has come down to race. Right or wrong it has been the focus point of the discussions and unlike in Ferguson where the Police Department was mostly white policing a mostly black community, you've got a lot of big cities where the police departments are very reflective of the communities, Baltimore, Cleveland, New York, for example. Do you think Sheriff Clarke that matters? Does it matter that the race of the officers reflect the race of the community?

CLARKE: Well, you know, that's a desirable goal but I don't think that's what at play. I think we focus too much on race. Let's look at the pathology that exist in many of these urban cities with the concentrated poverty, people can't find meaningful work, failing schools, father absent homes. And I'm not saying those cause crimes, but those conditions lead to the rise of the underclass and what we're seeing in these areas are underclass behavior. So we can continue to focus on the police if we want but transforming the police is not going to remove those pathologies.

HARLOW: What do you mean underclass behavior? What do you mean just for our viewers -- under class behavior?

CLARKE: Underclass behavior, things like having kids out of wedlock, failure to stay consistently in the workforce. Drug and alcohol abuse. Criminal involvement. Father absent homes. Those are some of the behaviors that black subculture behavior in many of these American ghettos I'm talking about. Those are underclass behaviors. Those things are on the rise because the underclass is growing in these American ghettos.

HARLOW: Cheryl is that a fair assessment do you believe talking about having children out of wedlock. Is it fair to make that correlation in your opinion?

DORSEY: It has nothing to do with anything in my opinion. What I believe the problem is and I'll take race out of the equation as well because what we're seeing are police officers who are not being held accountable for the actions that they take. They are drunk with power. Police departments circle the wagon and they shield these officers from any liability. I promise you if police officers who are errant and who are taking the lives of people inappropriately are held financially responsible, personally responsible, this stuff will stop yesterday.

HARLOW: Sheriff Clarkes?

CLARKE: Well, you know, we can continue to blame the police if we want. You want to throw out some anecdotal references. I want to see the evidence to support the claims that the police aren't doing their jobs, that the police are out there committing crimes and engaged in racist practices. Show me the research and the data to suggest that and we can have that discussion. We can continue to come down on the American police officers if we want, but I'm not going allow that to happen because if we don't go into these communities and I push back against this notion that the American police officer has quit on their cities. That is not the case. Not the police officers I know. If it weren't for the American police officers, who else is going to go down into these areas, this untenable situations, these impossible situations to protect the lives of everybody, including black people. So, you know, we continue to harp on the American police officers if we want. HARLOW: Yes.

CLARKE: That is not the problem in the American ghetto, it is failed liberal urban policies.

HARLOW: Certainly a lot more to debate here, guys. We'll have you back on soon. Thank you very much. Sherriff David Clarke --

CLARKE: Thank you.

HARLOW: Cheryl Dorsey, I appreciate it.

DORSEY: Thank you.

HARLOW: Switching gears here, you will remember the great Secretariat, Seattle Slew and Affirmed. Thirty seven years later, American pharaoh posed to possibly become the next Triple Crown winner. Can he run straight into the history book? More on the big race, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:33:00] HARLOW: A mile and a half is all that now separates the 3-year-old thoroughbred from horse racing history. American Pharaoh is going for the Triple Crown tonight at the Belmont stakes, and if he pulls it off, it will end a 37-year-drought.

Here is Richard Roth.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: American Pharaoh, a true American phenom.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): By winning the Preakness Stakes and Kentucky Derby before it, American Pharaoh raced to the edge of sports history. Could he be the first horse in 37 years to win the prestigious Triple Crown by capturing the Belmont Stakes?

ANNOUNCER: Post position number five is American Pharaoh.

ROTH: Bob Baffert, his trainer, has already lost three times in the Belmont while chasing the seemingly unachievable Triple Crown.

BOB BAFFERT, TRAINER OF AMERICAN PHARAOH: Hopefully, he's going to do his thing and finally we can break this drought. I think I'm responsible for the drought.

ROTH: But it may all come down to this, is American Pharaoh feeling lucky?

(SHOUTING)

ROTH: Superstitions are a big part of the game.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On a personal note, if I was in a slump, I would turn my underwear inside out.

ROTH: American Pharaoh's jockey is Victor Espinoza, who lost last year on California Chrome, the latest to fall short of winning the Triple Crown.

VICTOR ESPINOZA, JOCKEY FOR AMERICAN PHARAOH: I'm not superstitious but I like to take a nap before the race.

ROTH: Espinoza, who is not religious, did adjust pre-race routine by praying with Orthodox Jewish rabbis.

The owner of Pharaoh heads an Orthodox family, which means, on the Sabbath, no driving to the track. The families will sleep overnight in four R.V. vans at the track.

AHMED ZAYAT, OWNER OF AMERICAN PHARAOH: Our family and God comes first.

ROTH: Fans at the Belmont have their own superstitions.

UNIDENTIFIED FAN: If I'm at the track, I always to end my bet with an even number.

UNIDENTIFIED FAN: When I come to the racetrack, I usually call my grandfather. My one superstition would be to try to stay as far away from him as possible.

[17:35:00] ROTH: If he wins, American Pharaoh will make $800,000 for his owner, plus much more in marketing deals.

ANNOUNCER: The benchmark in the thoroughbred industry --

ROTH: At Coolmoor Stud Farm, where race horses are bred, American Pharaoh will get to have his own fun when he retires, while the owner rakes in part of what is known as stud fees that could top $100,000 a pop if he wins the Triple Crown.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He'll have dates with a lot of pretty fillies. And human athletes would excel in their sport if they knew that was their fate they had in their future.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

ROTH: Richard Roth, CNN, at Belmont Park in New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: We'll be watching. We'll see what happens tonight.

Well, they are pictures that are melting hearts all around the world and they just got released. Take a look. The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge have just released the first official pictures of their daughter, Princess Charlotte. They show Charlotte getting a cuddle from her big brother, Prince George. The photographer, by the way, the Duchess of Cambridge herself. Coming up next, Hillary Clinton has her lowest approval rating in 14

years. Here's a question. Can the candidate who the latest poll show the majority of the country does not trust be the next president? We'll hash it out with Marc and Ben, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:40:48] HARLOW: Republican presidential hopefuls are in Iowa today. They are roasting, riding motorcycles and working the crowd, trying get an early start in the early caucus state. Noticeably absent is Jeb Bush.

Let's talk about it with CNN political commentators, Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill.

Ben, let me begin with you.

Jeb Bush has not officially announced. That's happening on the 15th. He isn't exactly stealing the limelight like a lot of people thought he would. Is this why so many GOP candidates are jumping in?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I don't. These people are going to do it anyway. There was a lot bigger name recognition with the last name Bush and people gave him a lot more credit in reality what he was going to bring to the table. So from his perspective I think the bar was set so high early on that actually did hurt him when he did not plateau at some incredible pace and he was not ever going to be what Hillary Clinton is on the Democrat side in the GOP primary. He has to fight hard. He's doing about as wellington as I thought he would. He's one of the other solid candidates. But there's a lot of solid candidates around him.

HARLOW: Let's talk about Hillary Clinton. You brought these up. Let's pull up these poll numbers. These are from the most recent CNN/ORC poll. When you look at "honesty and trustworthiness," down 8 percent since March 2015. When you look at the numbers now, the question becomes, Marc, can a cane who the majority of the country does not trust become the next president? That's what she's facing.

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The answer is no. You can't become president.

(LAUGHTER)

But the bright spot for Hillary Clinton is those numbers can change. She doesn't have to stay where she is. Those numbers are linked to the e-mail scandal and Benghazi and sometimes those numbers are actually a proxy for other things. People say they don't trust Hillary Clinton because they are saying they trust someone else more. As time goes on, and they lose satisfaction with the Democratic primary nominees and they begin to realize 75 Republicans are running for office also aren't all that trustworthy for some reason or another, I think Hillary could be just fine. That won't be the thing that kills her.

HARLOW: But, Ben, if you look through the polling -- and I'm just looking at the numbers here -- Hillary Clinton is --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: They are not good.

HARLOW: -- at 40, 50 points higher than Vice President Joe Biden.

FERGUSON: Yeah. She's the front-runner but ultimately do you get inspired over a candidate? One of the things that Barack Obama and even Bill Clinton were able to do they were able to inspire people to get off the couch and go work for their campaigns or at the bare minimum go vote for them. Hillary Clinton had a hard time the last time she ran, inspiring information really want to go out and work for her. Now I think you add this trust issue that she did not have the last time.

LAMONT HILL: Oh, I don't know about that.

FERGUSON: Well, hold on. Look at last time. She didn't have this issue with trust. She now does have an issue. The Clinton Foundation hurt her a lot more than her campaign thought did it. I think the way they mishandled it with the media and not taking questions is where people thought if she's not speaking to us what is she trying to hide. And now poll numbers are backing that up.

HARLOW: But --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: -- Clinton at 60 percent, Biden at 14 percent, those are one and two in terms of Democrat choice for nominee in 2016. Guys, I want to touch this recent poll number out this week.

It was interesting to me, Marc. 63 percent of Americans in this latest CNN poll disapprove of how President Obama is handling ISIS. I wonder -- that's a big number. I wonder --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: Huge.

HARLOW: -- how much, Marc, do you think I want plays in this election cycle with Democratic candidates?

LAMONT HILL: I'm not sure it's going to play in in any significant fashion. I'll tell you why. Hillary Clinton strategy on foreign policy is not tethered to the president, particularly on the Middle East. Hillary has said I don't agree with the president on Syria, on ISIS, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The president's stance has been in some ways consistent with what many Republicans have said. There are Republicans on the other side of the aisle who have said, hey, let's not be interventionist. My overall point is this isn't a clear-cut partisan thing. No one has a vision on for ISIS. No one is going to the polls to vote based on ISIS. It will be domestic issues.

(CROSSTALK) [17:45:05] HARLOW: Really? No one is going to the polls to vote on ISIS?

FERGUSON: Yeah. Marc, the only --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: Let me be clear. Let me be clear. I'm not saying Americans don't care about ISIS. I'm not saying Americans don't care about ISIS. I'm saying it's not going that decisive. Hillary Clinton will not say anything so radically different than what people across the aisle will say.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Yes, she is.

LAMONT HILL: -- different approaches.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: -- quickly.

FERGUSON: Hillary Clinton was the foreign policy of this White House, so to as act as if she's not the same as Barack Obama, I'm sorry, it's unrealistic. She was the secretary of state and ISIS was rising under her watch. Benghazi was connected to it. The only Republican you could say was to be closer to Hillary --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Let me finish. Let me finish -- would be Rand Paul. The rest of them are very different on foreign policy in dealing with ISIS than Hillary Clinton. They have been beating her up on the issue on the campaign trail.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Guys we have to leave it there.

LAMONT HILL: You're absolutely wrong.

HARLOW: We have to leave it there. We have to leave it there.

No surprise you guys disagree. I will say, though, Hillary Clinton has come out and said she did not agree with the president in terms of the policy in Syria.

We're going back with the two of you in just a moment.

Coming up next, we'll switch gears and talk about the autopsy report for Freddie Gray. It's now complete. But the Baltimore prosecutor, Marylyn Mosby, says she won't make it public. And the lawyers for those six police officers indicted, they are crying foul. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:49] HARLOW: Baltimore prosecutor, Marilyn Mosby, says she's seeking a protective order that would block the release of the Freddie Gray autopsy to the public. This is according to the "Baltimore Sun." As you'll remember, Gray died in police custody in April after suffering a spinal injury. Six officers have been indicted in connection with his death.

Let's talk about this with CNN political commentators, Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill.

Marc, let me begin with you.

So to set the scene, this is a prosecutor who calls for transparency in this case. She spoke publicly on the steps of city hall there, saying, I want to get all of the information out. Do you think it is appropriate for her to withhold this autopsy from the public?

LAMONT HILL: I don't think it's inappropriate. I mean, would I like to see the autopsy? Absolutely. Would I like the public to ultimately see it? Yes. I don't think there's a contradiction about announcing charges particularly in the middle of civic unrest and say, hey, we don't want to try out the whole case in the media, turn it into more of a spectacle more than it is, particularly when the defense teams are saying we need to move this venue because the public knows too much information. They want it both ways. They way the public knows too much information, they can't get a fair trial, and then say, hey, give the public more information.

HARLOW: Part of this, Ben, is about tainting a jury pool, right?

FERGUSON: Sure.

HARLOW: And I you look back at Supreme Court rulings, there's a case from 1991, Genteel vs. the State of Nevada, that basically said defense attorneys have a right to sort of make their case heard to the public, right? Yes, some judges can put gag orders in place. It didn't mean you can't have gag orders, like this basically is, but it does also uphold the right of defense attorneys as well. Should that be a part of this consideration here, because the defense attorneys for the officers are enraged by this?

FERGUSON: Yes. Well, not only that, I mean, this is a breaking precedent because usually the police department would receive this autopsy report. She doesn't even want them to have this. This isn't even a race issue because you have several African-Americans that have been indicted. She had cameras around her and begged for cameras to come to her at the beginning of this. This started out in public. And for her to now act as if she wants this to be some private issue, to me, it screams that there's something in there she doesn't want people to see and she wants to hide. It's unfair to the officers. Unfair to the police department.

HARLOW: Do you think it's unfair to jump to that conclusion that she wants to hide something?

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FERGUSON: I think the fact -- well, there wasn't a camera she hasn't met that she didn't love early on. Now all of a sudden she's claiming that's a bad strategy when she loved it before? This is a prosecutor who came out and wanted to be in the middle of the limelight about this.

LAMONT HILL: Wrong. That isn't true.

FERGUSON: She did. She absolutely did. Now when it got down to the real issues, she's saying I want to hold all this back? I think the public deserves to know on this issue, and they want to know.

HARLOW: Gentlemen, I have to leave it there. Sorry.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Thank you very much.

I'm sorry. I have to leave it there. First word to you next time, Marc.

We want to get this in to our program. "Beau Biden, he was a mighty heart who made you want to be a better person." Those words from President Obama about Vice President Joe Biden's oldest son. We will take you inside Beau Biden's moving funeral, next.

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[17:58:19] HARLOW: President Obama embracing his friend, Vice President Joe Biden, as he said good-bye to his oldest son, Beau. The president giving an emotional eulogy for the former Delaware attorney general. The 46-year-old Iraq war veteran leaves behind his wife and two young children.

The lead singer of Coldplay was among those paying respects at the church in Wilmington, Delaware.

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