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James Holmes Trial Continues; Dennis Hastert in Court; New York Manhunt. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired June 09, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:05]

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: So -- so, the authorities have not upped the threat level as much as they could here on Capitol Hill.

Apparently, over at the White House -- and who knows. I don't know exactly what their protocols are. Now, presumably, somebody who put that T-shirt or whatever it was over the camera was trying to make sure that protocols were not revealed on how they handle things like this.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Mm-hmm. Right.

JOHNS: So, it will be something to go back to the Secret Service and say, just at what point do you tell the president of the United States you have to get up and leave because we're concerned that something might blow up?

And it probably has to do with finding something that a dog alerts on and initially believes to be some type of an explosive, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Joe Johns, thank you so much.

One more correspondent, our justice correspondent, Pamela Brown, let just me bring you in to just button this up.

You know, you were the one we were talking about -- Joe was mentioning, like, the cameras in the Briefing Room were covered. Many of them were. The cameras were tilted down outside of the White House. They have been allowed to return, but still a lot of questions about this one.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: There's a lot of questions and a lot of questions, Brooke, about the nature of this call, but I can tell you in regards to what happened earlier today with that bomb threat on Capitol Hill, we're learning that it was a specific threat that was called in.

Apparently, the caller said that a device had been placed in the Homeland Security Committee offices on the third floor of the Dirksen Senate Office Building. And so because the threat was so specific, that is why Capitol Police, I think, took the action they did, evacuate the area, took that threat so seriously, and, as we saw, interrupted the TSA hearing there. Again, we don't know if it's connected. Authorities are investigating

whether it's connected to what happened with the bomb threat called in against the White House press Briefing Room, but it is interesting to note that they did take this threat so seriously by evacuating people out of the room, covering the robotic cameras in the room and tilting down those cameras on the North Lawn. I think that tells you something, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Pamela, thank you so much.

Art Roderick, retired U.S. Marshal, he is still with us.

And just from your perspective, obviously, they took this quite seriously, in the sense that they evacuated the White House press corps out of the press Briefing Room, but, again, the president was home. Josh Earnest said the president wasn't moved. josh Earnest went back to his office a couple feet away. Senior staff weren't evacuated, so how do you read this?

ART RODERICK, FORMER U.S. MARSHAL: Well, I mean, strictly from the law enforcement perspective, I mean, you have to connect these phone calls, and I think law enforcement connects the phone calls and then works back from there.

So, I think what happened was, you had the scare up on the hill, which was very specific to a package being left in that particular hearing room. That room was cleared, and it probably lowered the anxiety a little bit as to whether these were credible threats or not.

So, when it got to the point where they had to clear the White House press Briefing Room, I think they did that obviously taking the threat for what it was, but also knowing that they just had one previously up at Capitol Hill that turned out to be a situation where they were able to clear it very quickly.

It does seem -- and the reason why I say that is because you're right. The right questions were asked by the reporters, the same questions I would ask.

BALDWIN: Right. They were. They were. They were. Kudos to them. I would be asking the same questions.

RODERICK: Yes.

BALDWIN: I think we will hear much more about this, you know, in the coming hour or hours.

Art Roderick, thank you so much for sticking around with me through that. I really appreciate it.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: News here not at the White House, but in Upstate New York.

This is as it pertains to the hunt for the two ruthless killers who we are being told are on foot right now, police swarming this town in Upstate New York. It's about 30 miles south of that Clinton Correctional Facility. That was the prison where these two men escaped using power drills some time on Friday evening.

This search active, happening right now, apparently triggered by the sighting of two suspicion men in the town of Willsboro, New York.

So, let me go to Polo Sandoval. He is live in Dannemora, which is where the Clinton Correctional Facility is, some 30 miles down the road.

You had helicopters out in the sky looking for these guys, potentially these two.

Well, tell me about the search that's under way.

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Brooke, I can tell you, at this point, there are just dozens of police officers searching that -- through that very small town of Willsboro, New York.

I can tell you, within the last hour or so, we did hear from a law enforcement source telling us that they do believe that these two individuals likely weren't picked up after they emerged from that manhole, which is not far from where I'm standing, which could lead authorities to believe that they were on foot eventually.

[15:05:05]

That does mean that that is a very real possibility, that they could still be in the area. We have heard so many theories that these two individuals, David Sweat and Richard Matt, could have fled even north to Canada or even down south to Mexico, since it's been already about four days since this prison break happened.

So, again, this is still a very real possibility. I want to sort of set the scene for you here, what's happening about 30 miles from here. We know that local, state, federal officials are in the air. They're on the ground. They're searching this small really farming community at this point. We know that there was an individual in that community that spotted two people overnight. They were walking down a lonely road in the rain.

That clearly raised a red flag, so that individual calling it in to authorities who then moved in to investigate. At this point, really, this is just one of just several leads, dozens of them, perhaps even well over 300 leads that have come in to investigators, who are promising to follow up on each and every one of them, but at this point, this does seem to be perhaps one of the more solid ones that they have received in the last four hours since this pretty incredible jailbreak was executed.

BALDWIN: Polo Sandoval, thank you so much. We're going to come back to this story and this active manhunt in just a second.

But more breaking news, because right now in Chicago a new and damaging chapter is being written in a long political career -- former U.S. House Speaker Dennis Hastert has arrived. Here you go. There's the scrum -- has arrived at the federal courthouse there in Chicago, where he is going before a judge to be arraigned on federal corruption charges.

The legal counts against him have to do with violations of banking laws and lying to the FBI, but the claims have a much darker subtext, allegations that he violated those laws in an effort to pay off an accuser, hush money, in effect, over sexual abuse that allegedly happened decades ago.

CNN's Ryan Young is there at the federal courthouse in Chicago.

Ryan, talk me through these charges and just bring me up to speed as far as what's happening inside that courtroom.

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, let's start with those first images that we just showed you.

In fact, this just started. It was supposed to start at 3:00, so it's just under way. It's 2:00 here. We know this court case will get going. He will face that judge, but really the optics of this, the images of him getting out of that car, you're talking about the man who used to be the third most powerful man in this country, 77 years old.

He didn't look so powerful getting out of the car, if we can show that video again, that huge scrum that was all surrounding him. Of course, we now know he's been charged with those bank fraud charges, because obviously trying to get that money out of his bank accounts and then providing it to somebody who -- apparently for hush money and then lying about it to the FBI.

But I really think all those people surrounding him, and he looked really small in that huddle of people. It was a powerful image. A lot of people standing on the sidewalk couldn't believe this was the former speaker.

BALDWIN: Longtime teacher, longtime wrestling coach.

Ryan Young, I am being told that he has pleaded not guilty on all counts, not guilty on all counts. Is that a surprise?

YOUNG: No, from what we believe -- we believe was going to happen is he would plead not guilty, and, of course, the defense would not show their strategy today. Probably, a mug shot will be taken sometime today.

That has to be a sobering fact for a man who was once this powerful and someone who a lot of people held up in high esteem, but you're talking about a man who was charged with being a wrestling coach. As a former high school wrestler, you understand how much and how powerful that person is in your life, and then the idea that several people who were on that team are charging him with sexual misconduct.

You can understand why people would be upset about that. A lot of folks want to know, what about those charges? Because, obviously, that's not what's talked about today in court. We have two people upstairs now, and of course we will be getting all

those details as they start rolling out. But we did expect him to plead not guilty.

BALDWIN: Not guilty.

All right, we will wait for that color. Ryan Young, my thanks to you.

Let me bring in Edward Genson. He served as defense attorney for Rod Blagojevich. He's often called the dean of Chicago defense attorneys.

Mr. Genson, can you hear me? It's Brooke Baldwin. You're live on TV.

EDWARD GENSON, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR ROD BLAGOJEVICH: I can hear you.

BALDWIN: OK. Wonderful.

Sir, we have just heard that Denny Hastert has pleaded not guilty on all counts. What is your read on that?

GENSON: My read on that is that he is doing what all defendants do when they're charged in federal court. He's pled not guilty. It's the obligation of the government to furnish him with all the evidence that they are going to use in this case, with some limitations.

It's then their -- it's then the obligation of the defense lawyers in the case to put that evidence together and see if they have a case. Remember, this case is not a case that has been put on television and written about in the newspapers. Essentially, he's charged here with taking his own money, giving it to someone, and not filling out a report that he gave it to someone.

And then, according to the agents that interviewed him, he's further charged with not telling the truth about it. That's the case.

[15:10:04]

BALDWIN: Right.

GENSON: All of the rest of these things that they have been talking about is what the press wants to talk about, and probably news, but it's still not this case.

BALDWIN: It's not this case.

And I hear you loud and clear as to the fact that he took -- it's against the law to take more than 10 grand out in cash out of those banks. He was taking $50,000, accused of lying to the feds. It is absolutely germane, though, this indictment, as we have been reporting on, and these other -- these allegations.

But to your point, you're absolutely 100 percent correct. Before we get into that, I want you to talk to me about this high-profile attorney he's hired, Thomas Green. Who is he?

GENSON: Thomas Green is a man about my age, I guess. He's a Washington lawyer. I met him once years ago. I have heard a good deal about him.

And they brought him in from Washington to try the case. He is assisted by a man by the name of John Gallo, who is a very well-known lawyer and a very good lawyer who practices here in Chicago in the same firm that Mr. Green works out of in Washington.

BALDWIN: To the indictment that I referenced and this Individual A, I was talking to Mark Geragos, pretty high-profile defense attorney, last week, and he was saying to me, the big question would be, would we ever know who Individual A is, who presumably Denny Hastert has been paying this hush money to?

And so we know he is being -- Hastert is in court right now and then after the arraignment, he will get the discovery and that Individual A will be revealed in the discovery. So, do you think, in some time, days, ever, the public will know who that individual is?

GENSON: It depends on what the government leaks out or puts out and it depends on what the defense lawyer puts out.

It's no secret that if you pay somebody $1.7 million -- $1.7 million to someone that you certainly know who you gave it to. So, I don't think it's a mystery to the defense as to who in fact that person is. The only person who doesn't know about it are you guys.

(CROSSTALK)

GENSON: The fact of the matter is, all the discovery relative to the payment of the money, the writing of the checks, who got the money, the police reports regarding that, the FBI reports who -- relative to that will be presented to the defense. It's not going to be any secret.

BALDWIN: OK.

GENSON: And it probably -- it probably isn't any secret today. How many people have you given $1 million to? I bet you, if you did, you would know their name.

BALDWIN: No one. No one.

Do you think, though, as we talk about potential, potential abuse cases, because we had heard last week from a sister of an alleged victim -- the victim has since passed away, but the sister says her brother said, yes, I was sexually abused once upon a time and it was Denny Hastert.

And I'm wondering, because the statute of limitations would have run out on that case, but if you do begin to have other alleged victims come forward, how might that, Mr. Genson, how might that play into this?

GENSON: I don't think a good judge will let any of it in.

It plays into this as to how a jury might be prejudiced in hearing the case and then the court and the lawyers in the case are going to have to make a very, very strong showing as to why none of it should be presented, and try to cleanse the jury of all those people that was tainted with that news -- that were tainted with that news.

You have here a situation where, in fact, the charges are absolutely irrelevant to all these things you have been talking about, and a fair trial would minimize or at least maybe get rid of it all. The fact of the matter is, all those charges have nothing to do with the case. The fact of the matter of it is that all these allegations are beyond the statute of limitations.

They're not prosecutable, and the only way that it's going to get in is if the government figures out some theory as to why it's necessary to prove their case.

BALDWIN: I understand. I understand.

GENSON: From what I see, it isn't necessary.

BALDWIN: You would know, as a man of the law, very well-known defense attorney in the Chicago area. Edward Genson, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.

GENSON: Thank you very much, ma'am.

BALDWIN: And now to here in Washington, my colleague Jeff Zeleny, senior Washington correspondent, joining me here to just, what, marinate on what's happened, really no huge surprise the not guilty plea on all counts. Tell us more about this.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: It's not surprising, Brooke, the not guilty pleas, but what happens now is the most interesting thing is, the lawyers I'm talking to, who are familiar with these type of cases, really believe that Speaker Hastert is likely at some point to accept some type of a plea deal, because he's so afraid of the potential of all these allegations coming out in open trial

[15:15:10]

That is certainly what he was trying to avoid by paying this hush money in the first place, if you're to believe the indictment. And so it's hard to imagine that he would want to actually double down on this. At age 73, you know, the charges themselves are not as extensive as what could come out in a whole criminal proceeding here.

But the Republicans I have talked to in Illinois, here in Washington, Brooke, are still absolutely stunned by this, and they know and they worry and they fear that the allegations and things could actually become even worse if this ultimately goes to trial.

BALDWIN: Since -- final question, since this indictment came to light, I mean, there has not been a peep from him, no statement, nothing.

ZELENY: Right, there hasn't been. And that silence has really been -- even has added to the shock and the dismay of some people who were so close to him.

It really -- his attorney may speak after they leave the courthouse in downtown Chicago. And this is the scene of so many Illinois politicians who have walked through those doors, sitting congressmen, governors and others. And now Speaker Hastert is on that list.

But I expect his attorney may say something today, so will defend him for the first time, but, Brooke, this silence has been absolutely deafening and it's adding to just the questions here that Republicans have.

BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. Well, we will watch to see if his attorney, Thomas Green, will speak at any point. We will head back that way and perhaps talk to you as well. Jeff Zeleny, for now, thank you so much.

More breaking news on the manhunt under way right now in Upstate New York, the search for these two inmates who broke out of prison right now focused on a small town not too far from that facility, two suspicious individuals spotted and reported. We will take you there live. You're watching CNN.

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[15:21:30]

BALDWIN: All right, here go, back to Chicago, because we just got an update on Speaker Dennis Hastert, who has been in this federal courthouse.

We know that he has just pleaded not guilty on all counts to these charges for lying to the feds that pertain to a lot of money, about $3.5 million he agreed to pay to an undisclosed subject to cover up past misconduct.

Here's what I have now from our producer in our Chicago Bill Kirkos. He's reporting that the judge is allowing Hastert to be released on a pretrial release. He had to sign an appearance bond of 4,500 bucks, which he forfeits if he fails to appear.

Three conditions, let me just run that -- down them for you really quickly. He is barred from carrying firearms effective immediately, and must remove all firearms from his property by a date in June, number one, two, has to surrender his passport, three, must cooperate in giving a sample of DNA.

So, bottom line, release, pretrial release here of Dennis Hastert.

Let's move on to Upstate New York, back to our breaking news, the manhunt for these two cold-blooded killers who escaped from a prison in Upstate New York. Now a source is telling CNN that they are likely on foot right now. Police helicopters are hovering over Willsboro. This is about 35 miles south of this Clinton Correctional Facility.

That is the prison where these two men escaped from using power drills at some point in the wee hours of the morning Saturday or Friday evening. This is a search that is active right now apparently brought on by a sighting of these two suspicious men.

So Brendan Lyons is a reporter with "The Times Union" paper.

And, Brendan, you have had all kinds of nuggets here on this story. But let me first begin with the fact that if we're hearing these two, if this sighting is correct, that they're on foot, that tells me there was no getaway car. Have you heard anything about that?

BRENDAN LYONS, "THE TIMES UNION": Yes, it's our understanding that the getaway car plan fell apart, that they did have someone on the outside who had agreed to possibly pick them up when they escaped from the jail, from the prison on Saturday, but that they weren't there.

And so for the past two days, two-and-a-half days, the FBI and state police have worked on the assumption that they are on foot in that area. They had drawn initially a 10-mile radius. And now where they are is almost 40 miles southeast going toward Lake Champlain toward the Vermont border.

BALDWIN: So, heading in the opposite direction from that Canadian border, heading south, as we pointed out, south, as you say, about 40 miles south of Clinton.

Do you have any idea why they would be heading in this direction, any sort of geographic significance, other than the fact that it is in the other direction of the prison?

LYONS: Well, I mean, it's speculative, but certainly going for the Canadian border might have been an obvious choice and one they wanted to avoid.

It's also heavily guarded in spots. It has motion cameras, and different surveillance equipment that's used. It's not easy to get across the border without detection, especially not without the right resources.

And this may just be where opportunity took them, different country roads they may have followed or they may have tried to follow some railroad lines with the idea that let's head in the -- in the direction that they -- we thought we might least likely go.

BALDWIN: Let me ask you about some of your reporting about that female prison worker, the fact that she may have provided certain pieces of equipment, maybe even from the outside to help Matt and Sweat, these two inmates, escape. What are you hearing from your sources?

[15:25:03]

LYONS: Well, they're certainly focused on her at this point. And she has not been charged, is my understanding. She's been questioned. She's been relieved of duty, and there was a relationship there that was even explored several years ago by the New York State inspector general, but no action was taken.

BALDWIN: A relationship. What kind of relationship are you referring to?

LYONS: You know, I don't know. I think a personal relationship. Certainly, there would be limitations on the contact that an employee could have with an inmate in a facility, but it may have been more that there was correspondence discovered or sometimes it can be favors that an employee does for an inmate that can get them in trouble.

But they're prohibited from having any relationship at all with an inmate.

BALDWIN: But, as part of your reporting, were you not hearing that it may have been -- may have been this woman who had what, was it, a saw and a hammer, brought it in from the outside?

LYONS: Yes.

BALDWIN: Tell me about that.

LYONS: Not sure about the hammer, but a law enforcement source did tell us this morning that they are working from the theory that a small handsaw that they obtained may have been provided possibly by this woman or someone else close to her, and so that that saw was key for them in cutting through the back wall of their cells and then also cutting through the pipe that led to their freedom.

BALDWIN: So then how would they have even been able to take a saw in a maximum security prison from this civilian woman back to their cells? Were they able to walk about? I read -- perhaps it was your article -- that they were in what was called the honor block?

LYONS: Yes, that's right.

There are liberties on the honor block that give them more freedom, but when they work -- for instance, in this case, they work in a tailor shop. The rules, as I understand them, are that they should have been searched each time they left that facility, that duty work station.

But, you know, in prison with lack of resources, sometimes the rules can fall by the wayside, including perhaps searching her bags when she enters the facility. She's not required to go, nor any other employee, through a metal detector. But it is possible for them to bring bags into the prison, and they are searched, but to what extent, it's unknown.

It may have been a combination of protocols that weren't followed here that enabled this. Apparently, they hid some of the tools in a guitar case in their cell.

BALDWIN: Whoa, that's new to me. Are you serious?

LYONS: Yes, that guitar case held a guitar. They actually dragged that case with them through the pipe.

And a witness had told police and told news reporters that they spotted two men in their yard near the prison just after midnight Saturday, and that the -- this would have been five hours before they were discovered missing -- and that one of the men had a guitar case on his back, and he claimed to have just taken a wrong turn and been in the wrong yard when the person asked them to leave their yard.

BALDWIN: It's like -- I'm telling you -- this is a Hollywood script being written, every single detail I keep hearing.

LYONS: If you wrote it, they wouldn't...

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: Right.

Brendan Lyons, phenomenal reporting, "Times Union" paper. Thank you so much. I'm sure we will talk with you again.

LYONS: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Next, we have more breaking news involving the Colorado theater shooting and the murder trial of James Holmes, word of a potential issue with the jury. We will take you live to Colorado next.

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