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Prison Break Manhunt; Baltimore Cops Speak. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 10, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:04] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, thank you so much. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.

We begin with the manhunt, the manhunt for those two escaped killers that has just taken now this shocking new turn because here's what we know now. A source making some pretty explosive allegations about this woman here. This is Joyce Mitchell. She's a female prison worker. She's a mother, she's wife who apparently befriended convicted killer Richard Matt while working in the prison tailor shop. Now according to this source, they say she was supposed to be waiting in a getaway car for these two, but apparently she had a change of heart, perhaps cold feet. She bailed. And her son, though, not buying it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOBEY MITCHELL, SON OF FEMALE PRISON WORKER: She's not the kind of person that's going to risk her life or other people's lives to let these guys escape from prison.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a report out there that your mom went to the emergency room with a panic attack. Did that happen?

MITCHELL: Yes. She was in fact in the hospital that evening. I don't know the exact details. I just know that she was having severe chest pains.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Meantime, another one of her sons is also speaking - another son is speaking out. This is the son of escaped killer Richard Matt, the fugitive who dismembered his boss limb from limb and he says he is not surprised his dad escaped.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have any respect for your dad at this point?

NICHOLAS HARRIS, SON OF ESCAPED PRISONER: I don't know him to say I respect him or not. Obviously he was in jail when I was younger and he wasn't there for me as a father 100 percent. So there's that. But I don't know him well enough to - Well, might just be his nature. It's not the first - he escaped from Attica before, too. So, I don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: Want to bring in Brendan Lyons, "Times-Union" reporter. He is back with us today, as is retired U.S. marshal Art Roderick, who has hunted down the FBI's most wanted and even investigated the Alcatraz prison escape.

So, gentlemen, welcome to both of you.

And I understand there's - Brendan, first to you. I understand there's even more of a law enforcement presence here in this town of Willsboro as I speak. You know, obviously, they want to find these two if, in fact, this tip is valid. Do you - are you hearing from sources? I mean how confident are they that they are following the right trail?

BRENDAN LYONS, "TIMES-UNION" REPORTER: Well, they got what they think is a very credible tip yesterday when a female driver reported that she had seen two men run into the woods when her headlights were cast on them. They've taken this - they've gotten many, many tips of reported sightings, but this one they are taking the most seriously as part of a two-pronged approach. The other approach is they're going back to the village of Dannemora today and starting the search again because as we said to you yesterday, the FBI is still believing that they could be within a five or ten-mile radius of the village as well.

BALDWIN: Incredible how they could be that close, under their noses.

Art, I want to ask you about the manhunt, but, first, this is something we got from Anderson Cooper's show last night. He talked to a former accomplice of this inmate, Richard Matt. And he actually witnessed Matt snap his boss' neck - this was back in 1997 - watch his break his fingers, watched him shove a knife sharpener in his victim's ear. He calls this man the devil. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE BATES, FUGITIVES FORMER ACCOMPLICE: He can make friends easy. He's a master manipulator. This is a 48-year-old man that knows a prison system, that knows street - the streets, street smarts and is a very cunning and dangerous individual. If he has a goal set in mind, he's going to go and do everything he can to achieve it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Art, I mean you hear those words, master manipulator, cunning, street smart. Knowing that, put yourself in these, you know, police officers' shoes, how do you find this kind of guy?

ARTHUR RODERICK, RETIRED U.S. MARSHAL: Well, Brooke, I mean I think that's - that's right on. I mean these guys are both psychopaths. They are able to seek out victims and then manipulate them to do whatever they want them to do. And that's exactly what happened in this case. And I'm - and I'm fairly sure at this point that the New York State Police and the federal authorities, U.S. marshals, FBI, probably know exactly Mitchell's involvement in the escape. And if she got cold feet and backed out, that is excellent news for law enforcement. That means they're probably still in the area. And I have heard reports of more law enforcement being brought into that area. So I think these are very credible leads. Any time you have multiple sightings on any fugitive case, you have to take them seriously. And they will track these leads down or run them to ground.

BALDWIN: You mentioned - you referenced Mitchell. This is the female worker. And, Brendan, I know you wrote about this for the paper. I know we here at CNN have sources that say her cell phone was used. I don't know if she allowed someone else to use her cell phone in relation to one of these inmates. Apparently it was used multiple times. They don't know who they were calling, why they were calling. But what can you share on that?

[14:05:15] LYONS: Our information is that her cell phone was in fact used to call relatives of Matt. Now, whether she made the calls or allowed him inside the facility to make the calls, it's unknown to us. We don't have that level of detail yet. It's also possible that she gave him a cell phone that he still has with him. If that's the case, I'm sure the state police would be glad for that - to have that information.

BALDWIN: Yes, wouldn't they know, Art, I mean, if one of them has a cell phone, isn't that pretty easily pingable, for lack of a better word?

RODERICK: It is. You know, a lot of - a lot of those that are involved in crime these days know exactly what can be done to track those types of devices. So, you know, when we look at any fugitive case, regardless if it's this one or another one, we always look at two things, communication, who are they talking to and what's their support system. So I'm pretty sure that was done right off the - right off the get-go as far as these individuals are concerned. And if they've got a cell phone, that's good news for law enforcement.

BALDWIN: Brendan, back to you, because, you know, we're reporting about these tools that these - these fugitives use to get out, this small electrical saw, power by extension cords and this 20-pound sledge hammer that was used to like break the lock on the other side of the manhole. You mentioned when we were talking yesterday that this guitar case in this cell that they used to high some of this stuff in. How did they use it all in their escape?

LYONS: Well, the saws - it's unclear, I think. Nobody has had the level of detail yet or it hasn't been released to know when they cut the holes in the backs of their cells. It could be that they - they did that that night and everything unfolded at once, or it could be that the holes were cut in advance and they had some trial runs down there to explore the bowels of the prison. But the grinder saw that they used cut a clean cut. I think that was left behind down below as well, at their last cut on the pipe that they got - that they entered in order to escape.

And so these tools - my understanding is that they may have carried these tools with them in the guitar case, as well as other items, possibly a change of clothes. I don't know. They wouldn't have been able to have money legally in prison, not a lot of money, but certainly they could have found ways to have some of those resources. Our information is a little different than CNN's on - now it's changed

today on the getaway vehicle. We've heard from one law enforcement source that the plan may have been for an employee to leave a vehicle for them that they could use to escape and that - and that there was no vehicle when they came out.

BALDWIN: How would they have even known they would have needed a sledge hammer? How would they have known that there would be a lock on the other side of the manhole, to either of you?

RODERICK: Well, I think - I think from - from the - you know, we're never really going to know until they charge somebody with aiding and abetting or assisting in the escape. So a lot of those facts are never going to come out. So - but it is quite obvious that based on the escape they had help from either the outside or the inside, either by getting them these devices or somehow smuggling them into the facility. And you'd be amazed at the type of - of contraband that gets smuggled into facilities, even though it's a maximum security prison.

BALDWIN: I have one more for you, Art, and then I'm going to let you all go. You know, Brendan mentioned something that I hadn't thought about before, a trial run. I mean in all these different escapes you have been a part of in terms of investigating, is that - is that pretty typical that you would have a trial run? Because I would think it would be fairly risky.

RODERICK: It is fairly risky, but I have been involved in escapes where there have been trial runs. It's not unusual, but it is very risky. Obviously the potential of being caught and the whole thing being given up is always a risk when you try to do a trial run. So it's hard - I mean I've even heard that there's a possibility that somebody might have come in through the - from the outside and assisted them.

So there's all kinds of speculation flying around on this. We're never going to know about the actual escape until they either charge somebody or somebody cooperates and then they just let the information out to the public.

BALDWIN: Well, we have just learned we should get some more information. There will be a news conference at the top of the next hour from officials, top of the 3:00 p.m. Eastern hour, there from upstate New York. So stay tuned for that. Art Roderick and Brendan Lyons, thank you both so much.

RODERICK: Thank you.

LYONS: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Also any moment, the lawyer for the officer who just resigned after that pool party takedown in Texas, he's about to speak about - this lawyer will speak about his client's behavior and his future. We'll take that live.

[14:10:03] Also, my candid and stunning interview with these two active officers from the city of Baltimore. This is the first time we have heard from cops since the riots, the Freddie Gray arrest and the city's deadliest month in 42 years, and they let go and give me their thoughts.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Just want to give you a head's up on two items we're going to take live that are happening throughout this show. Number one, we're going to take you - and we'll show you some live pictures from Dallas, Texas. We are awaiting this attorney representing the police officer who responded to that pool party melee in McKinney, Texas, over the weekend. So we will hear from her. The big news item on that is the fact that he will be - has - has resigned.

Item number two is out of upstate New York, the latest on this manhunt for these two fugitives. We will be hearing from the governor of New York, Governor Cuomo. So stay tuned for that. That's at the top of the next hour.

[14:15:01] Meanwhile, I want to pivot and talk about Baltimore. I want you to hear from a couple of voices we really never get to hear from. Six weeks ago riots erupted in Baltimore after the death of Freddie Gray. He died in police custody and six officers are now charged in his death.

Since those riots, the city has just had its deadliest month in 42 years. Why? That depends on who you ask. But it's rare that we hear from the actual people who are patrolling the streets and protecting the community. I sat down with two veteran police officers who have not been given permission to speak from the department. Because of that, and in an attempt to allow these officers to speak candidly, CNN agreed not to use their names or show their faces. We have also modified their voices. But what you're about to hear throughout this show is their reaction to the riots, why they're afraid, they say, to be proactive in their jobs and why they also say people in power do not have their backs.

In this first clip, they talked to me about Freddie Gray's arrest and whether the officers involved were justified. They told me they wanted to speak on behalf of the officers who are afraid to speak their minds. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So you're here today to help speak your mind, and we'll get into the bigger picture issues. But first I have to ask you all about the death of Freddie Gray. I want to begin with that. I know you're familiar with the arrest. You have seen the videos. Do you feel like those officers acted appropriately?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They've done nothing different than what we've always done as police officers on the street. Those types of arrests happen on a daily basis.

BALDWIN: The fact that they said they had reasonable suspicion, although you see the video, he's being dragged. He doesn't have a medic for 40 to 45 minutes. You would have done the same thing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. It's being complaint. If you're complaint, you will not have to be engaged by officers. Force has to be used with equal force. If you're not complying, that is why, you know, police are able to restrain subjects that are non-complaint. The officers did nothing wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That wasn't the intent. I don't think anybody woke up that day and said, we're going to go find someone to kill.

BALDWIN: What do you think the public's biggest misconception is about that whole incident, the arrest, the video, the death?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we've seen in-custody deaths throughout the country that you have a bunch of activists that come to the scene and get everybody charged. And when I say charged, get the community in an uproar and then they leave. And it's for their own personal gain. It's for the attention. But when they leave, the people that live in those communities are left with moving on, and the police is left with trying to rebuild these communities.

BALDWIN: So that's your frustration, but what's the biggest misconception? What are people not getting right in your opinion about what happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That this was an intentional act by the police officers. I don't think so. I don't think there was - there was any attempt to do - there was no malicious. There was no malice from the officers.

BALDWIN: Officer two?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And obviously, I mean, the officers knew that they were being videotaped. That's the biggest thing. You can't tell me -

BALDWIN: By a cell phone?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course. And even not being videotaped, you have six officers that are involved in this. The two officers that were placing him inside the wagon, and a normal person, you would think - there's nobody, especially a law enforcement officer, that you're going to jeopardize your life, your career, your families, your friends and everybody else to - for what, to, you know, to throw an extra punch or throw an extra kick? There was no physical violence that was involved in this. He was non-complaint.

BALDWIN: There was no physical violence? I mean when you look at the video and you see the takedown, is that all, you know, academy training?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a takedown, which is - and like I said before, its force has to be met with equal force, you know? If per say you start, you know, throwing punches at me, I will defend myself. It's not my duty or my job to retreat and let you be in control of the situation and let it escalate. We're there to de-escalate things. And he was placed in restraints. The situation was de-escalated. He was placed inside the transport vehicle. Whatever transpired after that, that only Eddie (ph) Gray knows and perhaps the other suspect that was in the wagon, which he had no view of exactly what, you know, the suspect was doing inside the vehicle

[14:20:18] I think people would take issue with - and here's the issue with a lot of these stories. There's video but it doesn't cover the entire confrontation, right? So when you talk about equal force meeting equal force, when you watch that snippet, it certainly doesn't appear that Freddie Gray is exerting the same amount of force as those police officers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're correct, and, you know, our training and expertise, we're trained to be able to de-escalate things before they escalate. So there was no deadly force that had to have been utilized at that point. He was taken under control. He was placed inside the wagon. And the unfortunate thing is, the results of it, it ended up with somebody dying, which I'm sure, you know, all the officers, not even officers, the public and the family for Freddie Gray, everybody has lost something because of this. And, you know -

BALDWIN: What did the officers lose?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their lives. I mean they - they will never be able to go back to their normal life at this point. It doesn't matter. If they're exonerated, which they should be, it doesn't matter. This is a life-changing event which can't be turned back around. And, you know, it's not only for them, but you have to count their children, their families, mothers, brothers, sisters, friends, everybody is affected by this, you know? Any place they go now, you know, there's going to be fingers pointed at them.

BALDWIN: Even if they're not convicted?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Coming up next, the officers tell me what's behind the city's deadliest month in 42 years. It's not drugs. Hear why they say criminals are empowered and while they are holding back in the fight against crime. Their candid revelations exclusive to us here at CNN. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:26:26] BALDWIN: Before the break we played you part one of my exclusive interview with these two active Baltimore police officers. They agreed to speak with me under the condition of anonymity. Because of that and in an attempt to allow these officers to speak with me candidly, CNN agreed not to use their names, not to show their faces. We've also modified their voices.

Since the riots in that city erupted after the death of Freddie Gray, they're making a startling admission of holding back and not being proactive on the street against crime and they suggest the reason crime is up right now is because criminals are running wild.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Since the riots, Baltimore has had the deadliest month in the city's history in 42 years. I was just reading the paper this morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

BALDWIN: A 16-year-old died. Over the weekend, an eight and a 10-year- old shot. Why is that happening?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because the criminal elements feels as though that we're not going to run the risk of chasing them if they are armed with a gun, and they're using this opportunity to settle old beef or scores with people that they have a conflict with. I think the public really, really sees that they asked for a softer, less aggressive police department, and we've given them that. And now they're realizing that their way of thinking does not work.

BALDWIN: Are the criminals right in thinking that you all will not arrest people as you would before?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to - you have to take - run the risk of - you have to look at it like, if I choice this guy, who possibly has a gun, and he gets in a parked (ph) car, will I be get - will I be charged with criminal negligence for chasing a possible armed suspect if I did not see the gun? That roll of the dice is greater than me just riding (ph) to the next call and writing a report. So these are the things that we have to weigh when we are riding past a group of guys on the corner and we can't make that decision like (ph) because we will be - we have - we run the risk of being criminally charged.

BALDWIN: So there are additional conversations you're having almost with yourself in your head as far as whether or not you want to pursue. Is it because you don't want to be wrongfully, your word, charged, or is it because the they you reference, those above your pay grade, are wanting this softer, more gentle police department? Which is it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well - well, we believe that there are outside influences, such as the activists, that requested a softer police department. Some of the citizens requested a softer police department. And now they have the softer police department. It's like - I mean we - we've survived through -

BALDWIN: But you took an oath to serve and protect?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we - we've survived through commissioners changing the color of our cars to be a light blue color to be - to appeal to the public and everybody wants officer friendly, but we respond to people's situations and we encounter people while they're at their worst. The worst thing that could have ever happened to a person, we respond to and see. And we understand that these are not our problems. We are coming to solve problems and help. You know, whenever there's a call for someone firing a gun, every day our officers respond with the same amount of vigor that they've always done, even before Freddie Gray.

BALDWIN: So then what's different?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, what's different is the pro-active, self- initiated policing has stopped.

[14:30:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're now in the reactive mode.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're in a total reactive mode.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is the result that you get. And, ultimately, it does a disservice to the law abiding citizens.