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Baltimore Police Speak Out; Manhunt. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired June 10, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:01] CARL STOKES, BALTIMORE CITY COUNCILMAN: Let me put it another way.

No officer has gone to jail for doing his job or her job. Hardly any police have gone to jail for not doing their job. So, it's not true to put out this tone that, if they do their jobs, they will be charged, convicted, arrested, put in jail. That's not the case at all.

We're saying, look, we still love...

(CROSSTALK)

STOKES: Go ahead.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: No, no, I think that, again, having spent an hour with them, they would say that part of the problem -- they would -- because I pushed them.

Obviously, I said, listen, you both took this oath. This is your job.

STOKES: You did.

BALDWIN: And they said to me, we recognize that.

But they don't feel like the leaders in the city have their backs, and that would even include you as a member of City Council, that so much -- this is politics at play. That's what they would say.

STOKES: Right. They are playing politics. Let me throw that back at them.

This is politics at play. That's absolutely correct. It is not law and order. It's something else going on. Not only do the elected officials have their back. More importantly than all of us, the leadership, the citizens have their back. The people out there, Mrs. Jones, the retired widow, Mr. Jones, the lifelong working mechanic, they have the back of the police officers in this city.

At this time, many of those people feel the police don't have their back.

BALDWIN: The end of the day, I'm still left with this question -- and this is not to you, but to these officers -- what needs to change in their opinions for them to return to not only, you know, reactive policing, but proactive policing. I'm wondering what kinds of conversations they are having, Councilman

Stokes, with their boss, with the police commissioner, who I would, by the way, love to have on the show.

STOKES: Sure.

Of course. And I said I think last week that -- I don't think I was with you, but I said last week that the commissioner, the community, the Fraternal Order of Police, all of us need to be in a room with or without the electeds, keep the politics out of it, if that seems to be a barrier, but they need to have an honest conversation with the citizens of this city.

And citizens will say, we have your back. Now, what do you want for us to do? And here's what we expect you to do to make sure that we're living in a safe environment.

BALDWIN: Yes. Councilman Stokes, thank you so much.

STOKES: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: All right, we begin the hour breaking news. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Any minute now, we will take you live to the scene of this massive manhunt for these two escaped killers. These are live pictures. This is outside this Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, New York, where we will see both New York Governor Andrew Cuomo and Vermont Governor Peter Shumlin. They're expected to speak.

This comes as we get word of two possible sightings of these escaped killers on the run in the area, with a source telling CNN that they may be on foot right now, because of a woman we're about to show you. Here she is, Joyce Mitchell, a female prison worker. She's a mother. She's a wife. She was apparently supposed to be waiting in a getaway car, but she had a change of heart and she bailed at the last minute.

That's what we're getting from sources.

I want to go live to Polo Sandoval, CNN national correspondent, live there outside of this prison.

Interesting, though, Polo, tell me why -- I understand why we have the governor of New York speaking, but why the governor of Vermont?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's one of the big questions, too, Brooke.

Clearly, it's been -- this expected press conference is generating quite a bit of interest. It's been about three days since the last official press conference from Andrew Cuomo. But the other question, which is a great one there, is why the governor of Vermont? That could potentially mean that the search radius may be growing, may be expanding.

Officials with the governor's office haven't said exactly what they expect to release. We can tell you, as some of the pictures that you're able to see, they do have pictures of these two fugitives that remain on the run at this hour, Richard Matt and David Sweat, as well.

And, as you mentioned, though, there are just so many developments that have already happened since this last press conference which was last Sunday, not only this -- these possible sightings that happened really within the last few days, but also this female prison employee as well and these reports that have surfaced about her potential involvement as well, Brooke.

So, I can tell you there are still so many unanswered questions, exactly where this investigation is and more importantly why did this investigation eventually come back to square one? Today, we saw just really dozens of police officers on the streets here just outside of the prison itself, so, again, we do expect hopefully at least some answers in the hours ahead from both governors.

BALDWIN: All right, we will take it live. Polo Sandoval, thank you so much.

Police -- people in this community, they are terrified. They say they can't drive down any road around this prison in Dannemora without being stopped by police, the crews hunting down these killers going door to door in the desperate search to find them.

[15:05:05]

We have some new video I want to share from you. This is taken from a car showing the extent of this manhunt here, officer after officer lining up alongside this country road.

I have Steve Dolgin, owner of Dannemora Ford.

Steve, I understand your business is directly -- I see the prison wall, I believe, over your shoulders there. You stare at this 35-foot wall every day you go to work. I mean, what kind of change have you, has this town experienced over the course of the last few days?

STEVE DOLGIN, OWNER, DANNEMORA FORD: Well, it's night and day.

You know, there's just police everywhere, of course, a lot of reporters here. Businesses are very quiet right now. It's very dead. You have got to go through at least three to four roadblocks to come here or go home. It's been very professional, though. I think everybody is doing a great job under the pressure.

And it does give us a little time to get some internal things done, so even though we're slow, we're making do.

BALDWIN: Wait. So, hang on, because hearing about all this presence I guess in Willsboro, maybe 40 miles away from you, but you're telling me, in order for you to get to work there in Dannemora, to get from your home to where you are standing now, you go through three roadblocks, three law enforcement stops?

DOLGIN: That is correct, yes.

BALDWIN: Wow. And what are they asking for? Just curious.

DOLGIN: I'm sorry?

BALDWIN: What are they asking for? What are they looking for in your car? Are they searching your car?

DOLGIN: Well, they just -- yes, they are just basically checking your car out. They want to see inside your trunk. And it hasn't been much of a delay at all. But it's interesting because they are very close to each other too, of course.

BALDWIN: I imagine too if we're talking car dealership in the shadows of this prison, are they doing inventory checks at your work?

DOLGIN: Yes, we -- yes, we did a couple of inventory checks to help them, and, as a matter of fact, a little while ago, we had a crew of searchers coming in here. They were armed, you know, looking at different areas in our shop quickly with the dog and that's the scene that is going on here pretty much.

BALDWIN: So far turning up, I presume, nothing?

DOLGIN: Yes.

BALDWIN: OK. Thank you so much. I appreciate you joining me there, Steve Dolgin, owner of the Ford dealership just outside of that prison.

I want to now bring in someone who has been involved in many a manhunt over his 28-year career. He is Bill Sorukas, retired U.S. Marshal, even investigated the Alcatraz prison escape.

So, Bill, welcome.

BILL SORUKAS, FORMER U.S. MARSHAL: Good afternoon.

BALDWIN: You say it is a matter of time before these two start committing crimes while on the run. Why?

SORUKAS: Well, I think that there's two factors that determine how long it will law enforcement to locate these individuals.

One is the level of any type of assistance they may have gotten from any of their support network. The other is the discipline that they will display in separating themselves from their past, from their locations that they worked in, that they lived in, from their family members and any communications.

So if they are disciplined in their ability to stay away from their past, they can stay away a bit longer. The problem will be that any support that they may have gotten will dry up very, very soon. And they will both return to their criminal behavior, whether it's stealing a car, taking a hostage, robbing a store to gain money.

There are generally three items, necessities that people need to survive, and that's food, water and shelter. And if you don't have those items where you are, you generally have to move to a different location to find them and that's when they will become vulnerable.

BALDWIN: OK. Those are potential vulnerabilities.

What about in terms of character? And I use this word loosely, because we have heard from a former accomplice of one of these two, Richard Matt, who testified against him as a witness. He said he actually saw with his own eyes Matt snap his boss' neck back. This was back in 1997, and he told CNN that Matt is the devil, his word.

SORUKAS: Yes. Law enforcement is very much aware of their criminal history.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE BATES, KNEW ESCAPEE: A 48-year-old man that knows a prison system, that knows the streets, street smarts, and is a very cunning and dangerous individual. If he has a goal set in mind, he's going to go and do everything he can to achieve it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Bill, how does this change things? I mean, to hear one of these two, at least one of them, is this master manipulator who is cunning and has street smarts, how does that change, you know, this whole thing for law enforcement looking for them?

SORUKAS: Well, law enforcement is well aware of the criminal histories and the past of both these individuals, so they are well- versed in who they are looking for and what their capabilities are, both as far as fleeing and the violence that they may be capable of.

[15:10:03]

The real threat here, I think, is to a police officer 1,000 miles away from this area who stops a car unexpectedly for a taillight being out with one or both of these individuals in the car. The other threat would be to the community who doesn't understand and isn't in a process of dealing with violent individuals, as law enforcement is.

So, the unknowing police officer and the communities that they may be in are facing the biggest these with both of these individuals.

BALDWIN: OK.

Bill Sorukas, do me a favor. I want you to stand by.

Again, live pictures outside this correctional facility. We're about to hear from both the governor of New York and the governor of Vermont in a matter of minutes.

Quick break, breaking news here on CNN. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:16]

BALDWIN: Back to our breaking news. We're looking at live pictures here.

These are the two individuals that police are looking for. We have seen the manhunt. This is just outside the Clinton Correctional Facility in Upstate New York here and we're waiting for this news conference. You see empty podium. We should be seeing in a matter of minutes both the governors of New York and Vermont.

I have a U.S. marshal, a retired U.S. marshal, Bill Sorukas, with me, and Polo Sandoval, who is standing there.

And, Polo, let me just begin with you. Set the scene for us again, because I was just talking to a businessman in that community. And even though there seems -- they seem to be flooding the zone, so to speak, in that town about 40 miles away, where there have been a few suspicious sightings, obviously, law enforcement, massive presence where you are.

SANDOVAL: That's right, Brooke.

And, of course, feel free to interrupt at any moment when that press conference does begin. I can tell you that there is quite a bit of anticipation here. It has been at least three days since we had the last official press conference involving Governor Andrew Cuomo. And now there are so many questions, not only obviously from us, but also members of the public here.

We have not really seen, at least with respect to the mood here on the street, not really a whole lot of fear, but questions, a bit of concern, and of course alertness. That's what we have seen on behalf of some of the folks here. We have seen people coming up to us, asking really what the latest is, and really not a whole lot of updates and that's because potentially there haven't been a whole lot of extremely solid leads for law enforcement.

Yesterday, there was that possible sighting that happened not far from here in Dannemora, New York, investigators following up on that, searching fields, searching farms, but obviously no results there.

And then today, which was most -- which was very interesting, the focus of this extremely massive manhunt shifted right back to where it all started and the gates of this prison here in the Clinton Correctional Facility here, so that obviously begs the question, are there any leads, if investigators are going back to square one, back to retrace the steps of these two highly dangerous individuals?

Again, we have hopefully -- or at least we hope for some of those answers as this press conference gets set to begin. And the last thing I should mention here, Brooke, the other interesting thing, Vermont Governor Peter Shumlin expected to join Andrew Cuomo during this press conference, which also leads to the other question. Has this search area expanded to some neighboring states as well?

BALDWIN: That's what makes you wonder. We know you're just, what, 20, 25 miles shy from Canada, and then you have Vermont just to the east there of this section of New York.

Bill, to you. I think we have to just remind our viewers here that -- the new nugget today. We have been talking a little bit about this female civilian worker at this prison. We know that, apparently, she became quite -- hmm -- she became known to one of these two inmates some years ago, but the fact that we're now learning, according to sources, that her cell phone was used to place multiple calls involving one of the inmates, and also we learned that it was her car, either her car that she would leave or, you know, a car that she would be waiting in herself for these two once they got out of the manhole.

Her involvement, what do you make of all of that?

SORUKAS: Well, I don't think it's unusual that a female employee becomes friendly with any of the inmates.

I have seen that many, many times over the years. But going to the extent of helping them to escape from the facility, I think that is somewhat rare, although I have seen it before. In 1992, I worked a case in San Diego where a female guard made available a handcuff key to an individual who was looking at life in prison. And he was able to escape from a transport van and kill someone in downtown San Diego. And it took about seven days before we had him back in custody.

BALDWIN: Friendly, that was word I was looking for.

Bill and Polo, stay with me. We're going to come to you as soon as we see those governors.

Meantime, coming up next here on CNN, much more on my exclusive conversation with these two Baltimore police officers. They told me what they think about Baltimore City leadership, the mayor, the state's attorney. Hear that, plus what they say their bosses told them about what to do as those protests and riots broke out across their city.

You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:23:39]

BALDWIN: I'm Brooke Baldwin. Welcome back.

I want you to hear from a couple of voices we never really get to hear from. Six weeks ago, riots erupted in Baltimore after the death of Freddie Gray. He died in police custody, and six officers are now charged in his death.

Since those riots, the city has just had its deadliest month in 42 years. Why is that? Well, that depends on who you ask, but it's rare that we hear from the actual people who are patrolling the streets and protecting the community.

I sat down with two veteran officers who have not been given permission to speak from their department. And because of that, in an attempt to allow these officers to speak with me candidly, CNN agreed not to use their names or show their faces. We have also modified their voices.

But during these riots from about six weeks ago, more than 400 people arrested, more than 100 officers hurt, businesses suffering millions of dollars in damages, but these two officers say they were given an order that forced them to hold back.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Take me back to the riots, to the cars and the buildings on fire and the CVS being looted there at Penn North and the mall. What happened? Were you at all told to stand down?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That call would have had to have come from someone of higher rank.

[15:25:04]

As far as the low-level officers, like we are, we were told to not engage. When I say not engage, to allow the people to throw whatever items were being thrown at us and just hold the line. That was the one thing we kept hearing all day, hold the line. So, wherever the line was moved to, that's what we did.

BALDWIN: What does that mean?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just stand pat, hold the line, don't move, don't give up any ground, don't back up.

BALDWIN: But don't engage?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't engage.

BALDWIN: Is that what the academy trained you? Is that what your gut instinct told to you do as well or were you having to hold back? You didn't want to hold back, but you were being told from up the chain to hold back?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think if they would have just allowed to get the perpetrators that were instigating it, it would have de-escalated a whole lot quicker.

BALDWIN: Did that make you angry?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

We were scared.

BALDWIN: You were scared?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. BALDWIN: What were you scared of?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Getting hit with a brick and possibly -- we have seen people in our profession hit with objects and never recover, or become vegetables, or die.

So -- and, you know, when people say rocks, you think of pebbles that you row and skip across water. We're talking broken pieces of cinder block, broken bricks with, you know, a quarter of a brick was being at a time, softball-sizes pieces of brick that were coming towards us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I guess the biggest issue is that, you know, that the upper command had advised even the officers, you know, to leave our perspective equipment inside the vehicles.

You're being deployed three, four, five blocks away from where your patrol car is and your riot helmet and your riot baton and everything else is inside your vehicle. You're told not to deploy unless things get out of hand, and you will be able to be respond and get your riot gear and all.

Things escalate so fast, that a riot helmet doesn't do an officer any good when it's in his patrol car four blocks away. And because of the public perception...

BALDWIN: The optics of what a baton and a shield and a helmet would look like?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

They didn't want that. They wanted a softer and gentler police department. And this was the end result. Things went out of control so fast. To get it back in control, it took several days. And it took several officers being severely injured that could have been avoided.

And the presence of force probably could have been -- it may have alleviated or it may have even prevented all this looting and whatever, you know, the fires, the acts of violence, the destruction. Maybe if it was a show of force, and it would have intimidated some of the public, and of course, there's times when that is not needed.

But it was needed at that time. It was needed to show that we will react if there's advantages that are being taken by a criminal element for their own personal gain.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: What would you have done to stop all that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They should have had all the officers with the proper equipment on.

And as soon as the first -- the first attempt of looting, of disturbing the peace, destruction of property, there should have been action taken immediately. There should have been arrests made and there should have been shown an example that we will not stand for this.

We took an oath. Every police officer has taken an oath to protect property, to protect life, and to serve people. Pretty much, we were told to break that oath, because when you're told to stand down, when you're watching a mob of people destroying somebody's livelihood, destroying, you know, their business, you know, people being violated, being assaulted, and you're told to stand there helpless?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: I want to go straight to our justice correspondent, to Evan Perez, Evan, who was there in the weeks after those riots as well.

And, listen, these are explosive allegations. Essentially, these two are saying they were told to hold the line, read between the lines, being told to stand down. And I know you sat down with Police Commissioner Anthony Batts after a lot of those riots. And he has time and time again denied ever issuing that command.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Brooke. He says, simply, that's not true.