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Police Set Up Perimeter; Dogs May Have Traced Killers; Holmes' Ex-Girlfriend Testifies. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 11, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:03] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Brianna, thank you so much. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And we kick off the hour with more breaking news here on this manhunt happening right now for these two escaped killers. Sources telling us these police dogs have managed to trace a scent all of three miles from this prison wall here in upstate New York. All of this as we learn this female prison worker, suspected of being an accomplice here, she is cooperating with police. A source telling CNN, Richard Matt, the killer known as "hacksaw," made her feel, in a word, "special."

Right now, hundreds of officers are setting up this perimeter, they're swarming the woods, apparently finding a shoe print and multiple food wrappers looking suspiciously like a place these killers hunkered down for the night. This latest lead bringing this usually sleepy part of the country to its knees, and entire highway shut down, schools in the area, closed, armed officers at every, single corner.

Let's take you straight to the scene live to Miguel Marquez, our CNN national correspondent.

And given all these new nuggets in the last couple of hours, Miguel, I mean what's the sense from police? Are they - are they getting closer?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they certainly hope they are. We are about four miles from that area where the encampment was - or this location that they suspect may have been where these two individuals stayed for - and it sounds like recently. A source telling CNN that something at that encampment, among the grass that had been sort of matted down as though they slept there, the wrappers, the food wrappers, a shoe print, possibly a boot, something there led them to believe that they had been there very, very recently.

We are also now learning a little more about David Sweat. In 2010, a local reporter here had sent him a letter asking him to partake in a journalistic effort that she had. He wrote her back. And that letter the journalist dug out when she realized that it was from him, which is - it doesn't say much other than him politely refusing to take part in her project. But it gives you an idea of his handwriting and what sort of person he was.

The area here certainly under tight lockdown. The area where they believe they may have bedded down about three miles from the prison. We're about four miles from there. So seven miles from Dennamore in total. So it's a very, very wide area they're searching, but 500 individuals on that search, and they are hopeful that they'll have them soon, Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK. Let me ask you, Miguel, about this woman, this female prison worker, Joyce Mitchell. Again, we just learned from a source, apparently Richard Matt made her feel special. You know, she apparently did not provide that getaway car. And now we hear she is pretty cooperative with police, yes?

MARQUEZ: Well, it's hard to draw anything from the very special remark from police. In the words of her own family, these are individuals who she tried to help out of the goodness of her heart. That they were very - that they were known to her. But in as far as there being any love connection or anything along those lines, they absolutely say there wasn't and that she didn't - and they even deny that she helped them at all in this escape, and that she was just wrong person, wrong place, wrong time, Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK. Miguel Marquez, thank you so much. We'll loop back around with you as soon as we get any more developments there.

Meantime, now that investigators are getting these potential leads on the whereabouts of these two fugitives, state police are warning people to multiple search areas, hunker down, stay on alert.

Joining me now on the phone is Thomas LaSalle. He lives in the town of West Plattsburg, New York. He is, as I mentioned, on the phone with me.

And I know, sir, you know, that the police presence in your area has increased. Dogs may have picked up this scent. You've blockade yourself in your garage with your family members. What are you seeing out your window right now, Thomas?

Thomas LaSalle, it's Brooke Baldwin, you're on CNN, can you hear me?

I'm getting nothing. Let's move on, guys.

OK, let me bring in Bill Sorukas. He's a U.S. marshal, retired U.S. marshal. Spent 28 years hunting fugitives, even investigated the prison escape at Alcatraz.

So, Bill, first to you. You know, when you're hearing from our correspondent that there may have been, I say this loosely, like a campsite, I think the words we heard from law enforcement, an area where these two may have bedded down, three miles, just three miles from this prison, that would be within the perimeter set up by police. So what does that tell you first and foremost?

BILL SORUKAS, RETIRED U.S. MARSHAL: Well, I think that if the reporting is true, that the transportation they had arranged for was not there at the time when they emerged from the manhole, that they had to immediately go to plan b, which may have been just to hide in the area and hope that their ride arrives at some point. [14:05:07] When it didn't, and there was a reaction from the prison and local police that an escape had occurred, then they had to secrete themselves. They had to be mobile, get away from the area as much as they could, but hide at the same time.

The information that they found at the campsite, I think it can tell them a lot of things. One, whether one or two people were laying down in the grass. Second, the boot print that they have, as well as the food wrapper can be connected back to prison-issue or an item that is available at the prison. So that can tell them an awful lot as well.

BALDWIN: What is their smartest move? When I say smart, I don't - I don't know how smart these two really are to be doing this, but to stay together or to separate?

SORUKAS: Well, I've seen cases happen both ways. And one of the most notorious cases that we're aware of is the "Texas Seven," where all seven individuals stayed together for a month after their escape and up until their capture in Colorado. So I've had cases both ways, and investigators should approach it with the best information they have, and right now that appears to be that they are still together.

BALDWIN: What about the fact that, you know, when you look into their backgrounds, I mean these are - these are hardened criminals, and the fact over the last couple of days we have not heard about, you know, any hostage situations, anyone being holed up, no armed robberies, no cars missing. What does that tell you?

SORUKAS: Well, I think that does help investigators. The absence of any of those thing occurring, along with the information that their ride was not available, I think that does tell investigators that they had to find somewhere very local to hide. One of the three general ways that fugitives avoid apprehension is mobility, to keep moving. Some of the most difficult cases that I've been involved in over the years are individuals who don't know where they're going to be at the end of that day or at that night.

BALDWIN: All right, so keep moving, if they're thinking straight. Let me ask you, Bill Sorukas, to stand by. I've got Thomas LaSalle on the phone with me.

So, Thomas, let's try this again. I know you're essentially hunkered down, you're in West Plattsburg, New York, in this - all these search areas. You're hunkered down in your garage with your family. What can you see from your vantage point outside your window?

THOMAS LASALLE, WEST PLATTSBURG, NEW YORK, RESIDENT (via telephone): Well, I can - just a quick correction. My family is away right now. We - we sent them away last night.

BALDWIN: Forgive me, I was told you were with your family. So you're alone?

LASALLE: No, I'm with my cousin, Eugene. We've been - we've been here since last night. But I can tell you that over the last few minutes, we heard sirens. An ambulance just drove by with EMT behind them heading east towards Route 3. Helicopters still very frequent, every few minutes they're flying over. We did notice that, you know, east of here, maybe about two miles down the road, there was quite a bit of activity about half an hour ago. Four wheelers just took off down there with the border (ph) patrol. So, I mean, from my vantage point here, it's been kind of quiet. But there's definitely a lot of activity going on about a mile east of here.

BALDWIN: A mile east. So what about the fact that - have you been out and about wandering, I don't know, around your home, around your neighborhood? I understand you were talking to state troopers. What were they advising you all?

LASALLE: Yes. Well, yesterday, we went out, my cousin and my brother- in-law, nobody - we hadn't seen any police presence at all north of us. And due north of my house - of my house is the prison. You know, about two and a half miles away. And I hadn't seen anybody up there in the five days, you know, leading up to yesterday. And we took off and we - we went up about a mile, mile and a half, and, you know, about like two miles wide and just like a basic search just to see if we could see anything, you know, just trying to get more peace of mind to my family..

BALDWIN: Oh, so you went searching yourself? You went searching yourself for these guys?

LASALLE: Yes. Yes. We went out ourselves, you know? We've actually talked to the border patrol that morning. They were searching some power lines and needed some advice about local area. I grew up here, you know. I moved here when I was four years old, and, you know, I've been all through these woods my entire life and, you know, we helped guide them a little bit to where they could get to where they needed to go and we let them know that we were heading north, you know, just to kind of check things out and, you know, he just told us to be safe.

BALDWIN: So you're the perfect person to be talking to, because let me ask you about the conditions in the woods. I mean we keep seeing, you know, these pictures, but, you know, you've been through them. Can you describe the conditions? How wooded, how challenging would it be for people who are not familiar with the outdoors?

[14:10:00] LASALLE: Very challenging. You know, it - a lot of this is very like old growth forest. You know, you could be walking and 10 feet from you the brush is so thick that, you know, somebody could easily lay in there and you would never even notice it. I mean, you would literally have to be like stacked almost arm to arm to go through a lot of this and really just to cover everything. You know, there are abandoned cars, camps out there. You know, there's just a thousand places that these guys could hide and hunker down.

BALDWIN: So, wait, are there official campsites or just places where people just camp out?

LASALLE: No, it's not official. It's all privately-owned land. But, you know, it's - it's been owned for a long time, you know, and there's - it's like a high hunting area. It's - it's a pretty thick area.

BALDWIN: So if you find yourself in this thick area, let's roll with me on this hypothetical, I mean how far would you be in terms of getting food from, you know, nearby 7-Eleven, restaurants, a water source?

LASALLE: Oh, that's - a water source, yes. There are several mountain streams that they could follow. But due to the heavy rain, you know, a lot of them are, you know, inaccessible, unless you find some small bridges along the way. But as for food, you know, unless they brought their own, you know, you're not going to find much this time of year. You know, it's - this is the very colder area. You know, berries and stuff haven't even started to grow yet. You know, you're going to be forging. You know I can imagine that, you know, if you wanted to survive for days out there, you would definitely, you know, be eating grubs and worms and whatever you could.

BALDWIN: Are there cabins?

LASALLE: There - there are a few camps along the way, you know, but we're talking like two and a half mile stretch of nothing but wilderness, you know, north to south, and their search grid, last I heard, was over three miles wide. So, I mean, they're coming down from the north in like a three-mile wide pattern kind of trying to push them into one direction.

BALDWIN: OK. I asked you about the cabins because I'm just wondering if that could be an option for them and if - I know you mentioned this time of year, not a lot's going on, would there be people in those cabins yet?

LASALLE: Probably not. I think most of them are just owned by landowners, and they're primarily used in the fall for hunting.

BALDWIN: OK. Thomas LaSalle, thank you so much.

LASALLE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And I've still got Bill Sorukas. Bill Sorukas, please stick around. Our retired U.S. marshal. I've got more for you.

We will also take you live to a K-9 site where bloodhounds are trained for these searches. We'll show you how the training works, how effective it is in picking up someone's scent. How do these dogs even know what scent to be sniffing for? We've got all that for you. This is CNN's special live coverage. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:58] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: Back with our breaking news. I'm Brooke Baldwin. This is CNN.

This frantic search for these two escaped killers. We have these police dogs now running through these woods and farmland of upstate New York. And according to sources, they have just sniffed out the two fugitive killers picking up a scent of fugitives Richard Matt and David Sweat just about three miles from the prison.

So we want to take you live now to this K-9 unit in DeKalb County, Georgia. I have Sergeant Thomas Devoie.

And you have these Belgian Malinois dogs with you. This is the same breed of dogs being used in this particular manhunt. Same breed of dogs that were used in the Osama bin Laden raid. So, sergeant, let me begin, as we're looking at these pictures, how do these dogs even know what scent to pick up on?

SGT. THOMAS DEVOIE, DEKALB COUNTY, GEORGIA, K-9 UNIT: Brooke, they start their tracks right where - I mean they had last contact with the suspect. And then they acquire the scent from that track. So they actually track between a combination of ground disturbance and some - and odor also or scent.

BALDWIN: But hang on a second, sergeant, because in order for them to even know these inmate's scents, what are they being given? Like bedding from inside their prison cell?

DEVOIE: You know, Brooke, I couldn't speak to - I'm not up there, so I can't speak to what - what they're - what they're using.

BALDWIN: But in general. In general.

DEVOIE: It's possibly they are using - in general, I mean they could be using clothing or they could be using some of the items that were left behind in the encampment as far as being able to identify the scent. They could be using, you know, what bedding or wrappers, whatever they left behind.

BALDWIN: Got it. And so this dog here that we're looking at, we have two boxes up on the screen, on the right side, the dog is Django and so what is Django doing? What are we looking at?

DEVOIE: He's doing a training track, Brooke. We put a track out maybe about a half hour ago and this is something we do on a regular basis. He's tracking - he's tracking - in the training exercise, he's tracking to a toy. Obviously what they're doing up in New York, they're looking for those two suspects. So this is something we do on a pretty regular basis. Most K-9 units do to enhance the dog's ability to track. It's practice and obviously when you practice - the more you practice, the better you get at it.

BALDWIN: So what is it about this breed of dog, Belgian Malinois, that really is so amazing?

DEVOIE: They're pretty versatile dogs, Brooke. They're used a lot for police applications. A lot of folks always harken back to like German shepherds. They're similar to a - similar to the breed of a German shepherd. They can do a lot of things well. You know, they can track. The dog that you were looking at, with Django, he's actually trained to sniff out drugs, human odor, and then he can also apprehend. So they can do a lot of different applications. They have a lot of pretty high-driven dogs, and their almost - you know, this is what they're - this is what they're born to do. BALDWIN: Sergeant Devoie, how often do they get it right versus, you

know, follow the wrong scent?

DEVOIE: You know, Brooke, it really depends on what you're given. I would assume up there, obviously with as many agencies and law enforcement officers are out, they're pretty confident that, you know, that the suspects, the encampment they found is the suspects so that they're following a scent is probably a pretty good probability. There's a lot of things, a lot of factors that could go into it as far as make it a little bit more difficult. But I'm pretty confident in this perspective they'll be pretty successful in finding these two suspects.

[14:20:27] BALDWIN: What about the fact that we've heard I think over the course of the last few days, there's been rain on and off. How does that affect scent?

DEVOIE: Its -- it makes it a little bit more difficult. There's environmental issues that make it a little bit more difficult. You know, heat of the day, you know, it dissipates the scent disturbance. Rain could push it down. It makes it more difficult. That's why I believe up in New York they're using blood hounds, and bloodhounds are generally, you know, they're main purpose, their main application is for tracking and they're a little bit - I'll say they're generally a little bit better at it than the - than the Malinois. So to answer your question, it would make it a little bit more difficult, but certainly not impossible.

BALDWIN: Got it. Sergeant Devoie, thank you so much, DeKalb County, Georgia, and our buddy Django here. Thank you so much.

DEVOIE: You're welcome, Brooke. Have a good day.

BALDWIN: You too.

Coming up next here on CNN, this - we'll take you back to this manhunt in a second.

Meantime, this ex-girlfriend of the Aurora, Colorado, theater shooter, James Holmes, is on the stand. What she's revealing about their first date, about Holmes' state of mind and how he behaved around others.

You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:25:53] BALDWIN: The ex-girlfriend of Colorado theater shooter James Holmes testified in court today. She met James Holmes back in 2011 at the graduate school they attended outside of Denver. While they were dating, prosecutors say Holmes sent her messages saying he wanted to kill people. She didn't think he was serious. She described him as bright, but shy. Said he wouldn't go up and interact with other people. She says Holmes was more talkative when he was alone with her. She also testified that their first date was to a horror film, and that Holmes' struggled with social anxiety.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: During the time that you were with him, did the defendant express to you concerns about his social anxiety and ability to interact with people in public?

GARGI DATTA, HOLMES' EX-GIRLFRIEND: Um, yes. He recognized that he had issues interacting with people in public and he thought other people were judging him for it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, did you make a recommendation to him based on these expressed concerns?

DATTA: That and some other concerns he had. I told him to go see a therapist, it might be better for him. It might help him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And we have Sara Sidner, who's been following this trial, and especially this testimony.

Sara, what else did she tell the court?

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: James Holmes' ex-girlfriend, Gargi Datta, talked a lot about their relationship. She was asked by both the prosecution and the defense about the relationship. Also asked a lot about his demeanor throughout their relationship. In particular, if he changed throughout the time.

And the defense is trying to argue, of course, that he cracked up, so to speak, or went crazy after the pressure of school. He wasn't doing that well in a class, and because she broke up with him. And he had told her that he loved her, and it was something that she did not feel towards him and ended up breaking up with him just months before he went on this shooting spree killing more - a dozen people and wounding 70.

But she was also asked about a change in his demeanor and she was asked about a particular change during a g-chat (ph) where she noticed something that concerned her and her friends. This is the defense cross-examining her about that exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was toward the end of March where you get that g-chat from Mr. Holmes about the human capital.

DATTA: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that was, you said, the first and only time you had heard him talk like that.

DATTA: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prior to that, he had never said anything delusional in your words, something irrational that didn't make sense?

DATTA: No, he hadn't.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And after you got that g-chat, you told Ben (ph), you know, hey, take a look at this, this is kind of weird, right?

DATTA: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you guys told James that he should talk to his therapist about that idea.

DATTA: We asked him if he was talking to his therapist about that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: So, again, her and her friends had asked him, look, this is strange. She wasn't sure if he was serious. It sounded very philosophical. But they were concerned and so they said, maybe you should talk to your therapist. She did know that he was taking a medication at one point. And you'll remember that James Holmes has gone on trial and said that he's not guilty by reason of insanity. Of course, the defense trying to prove that. The prosecution trying to prove otherwise.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: We know you'll keep watching it for us. Sara Sidner, thank you so much.

We want to pivot back to our breaking news, though. Update state New York. We will speak live with the former co-executive producer of "Americas Most Wanted," why he says these escaped killers will not last long on the run.

Also ahead, this woman, allegedly planned to be the getaway driver for the escaped killers. She told investigators one of the murders, quote, "made her feel special." Hear why officials are holding off on charging her so far.

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