Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

More U.S. Troops to Iraq; Escaped Convicts Manhunt Update. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired June 11, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:03]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour, breaking news here on CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

We have got to talk about this manhunt for these two escaped killers. Six days now after they tunnelled their way with these tools out of this New York maximum security prison, we are now hearing these police dogs, these bloodhounds may have tracked down their scent to what sources are calling a bedding site, perhaps where they overnighted.

This is just three short miles from this correctional facility. One of the questions now, why didn't they get more space between them and the prison before setting up camp? Were they hoping a getaway car would still show up? Did they even have a plan B? The female prison worker who is alleged to have bailed on said getaway plan is now cooperating with police, apparently being open about her role in this and why she may have been an accomplice to these killers, a source telling us, Richard Matt, the killer known as Hacksaw, made her feel -- quote -- "special."

Let's go to the scene, to Miguel Marquez, our CNN national correspondent, who was just talking to that state police spokeswoman, learning a little bit more, Miguel, as far as the cabins in this wooded area there in Upstate New York.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Look, this is an all -- it's an all-effort -- all-out effort here by the state police and many agencies in this area.

Cadyville is the closest place to this. There's -- rumors run rife through this area very quickly. There were rumors of gunshots being heard. Police now say there is nothing to that. It has nothing to do with this investigation. This is a very, very rural part of Upstate New York.

They say the area that they are searching, excuse me, is about five square miles, about three miles from Clinton Correctional Facility, where they escaped from. We, where we are right here at this intersection that they have blocked off, is another four miles from there. So it's a very large area that they are blocking off.

The individuals, they are looking through every possible place they can, in the woods. There are a lot of lakes around here, and a lot of summer homes that may be empty at the moment. They have special teams who are going home to home. They have helicopters up. They are flying those helicopters at night using FLIR or infrared so they can try to pick them up, those bodies up at night, which is always a good possibility.

But I want to keep folks in mind that many of these searches, it is often the case that the people who escape do stay very close to where they escaped from, and then only make plans to move on later. We saw that with Dorner in California. We saw that Eric Frein in Pennsylvania. It would not be unreasonable to think that they are this close still to that correctional facility. Still, about 500 people out there looking for these individuals.

And regardless of the fact that they haven't found them yet, they say that they have about 600 leads that have come in so far and that they will find them -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: I keep thinking of the Christopher Dorner manhunt. There he was in Big Bear in a cabin in that wooded area. You know, mindful of that as we move forward. Miguel Marquez, thank you so much.

Let's broaden out this discussion to Tim Williams, former chief inspector New York and New Jersey Regional Fugitive Task Force and former director for Interpol U.S. operations.

So, welcome to you, sir.

And also with me, Lawrence Kobilinsky, CNN contributor and forensic scientist.

So, gentlemen.

Tim, let me begin with you here. When you're hearing about this wooded area, Miguel was saying five square miles, three miles from this correctional facility, presumably, the getaway plan, plan A, and maybe even plan B, you know, out the window. What are the chances? Is there a window for these investigators in finding these two?

TIM WILLIAMS, FORMER CHIEF INSPECTOR, NEW YORK/NEW JERSEY REGIONAL TASK FORCE: Well, I don't think there's necessarily just a window. I think they're doing a great job coming together as a team, which is what you hope happens in these kind of circumstances where agencies work together. They drop all the politics and they work together on these type of cases.

That's what the key is that. In the task force that we ran in New York, they are up there, they are working, they're supporting the local, state police, other federal agencies. That's the way it's supposed to happen up there.

BALDWIN: Larry, I know, as far as forensics goes, right, we heard, according to sources, that they had -- food wrappers have been found in the woods, maybe a footprint. What are investigators able to glean from those nuggets? DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, first of all, I think

that's very important, because we're assuming this is their bedding site based upon a dog that, you know...

BALDWIN: Picked up their scent.

KOBILINSKY: ... reacted. And dogs are phenomenal because they -- a large part of their brain is devoted to olfaction work, sense of smell.

They can do miracles with just single molecules, but, essentially, we don't know for sure if this dog acted correctly. Let's assume it did.

[15:05:00]

BALDWIN: OK.

KOBILINSKY: But by looking at the candy wrappers, there's touch DNA that we can do, or if they ate something and left it there, saliva has a lot of cells. And you can do a DNA analysis very rapidly, and confirm that it is indeed these two individuals.

Now, once you have done that, then the issue is, where are they? And, as we heard, helicopters, using infrared equipment, can spot people sometimes, but this terrain is extremely rugged in Upstate. So, I think they need to do a search by hand, people basically side by side, walking through an area that's been basically cordoned off in these arcs.

They set a perimeter, and they have concentric circles, and they go through each arc step by step by step to make sure they haven't missed anything.

BALDWIN: I mean, Tim, what we're hearing these two are definitely not outdoorsmen. We know that one of them apparently was on prescription medication for some kind of back pain. We are, what, six days out from the two of these criminals escaping, and we also know that investigators are now searching, you know, cabin by cabin by cabin. This is far from any kind of restaurant or food source.

There are some creeks in the area. Where might they be?

WILLIAMS: Well, I think you're going to see a lot -- things a lot different than some of the survivalist individuals that have been captured most recently.

These individuals have been inside and have been in custody for many years. They're not outdoorsmen and haven't been out there. I think they are going to have to be -- I think you have some trained, really well-trained law enforcement personnel out there that have worked in that wooded area, and wooded areas all over the country, and they will -- they will do their best. Dogs, technology, forensics, like that was mentioned, they're going to be a key to help finding these individuals also.

BALDWIN: Larry, how mindful are law enforcement in terms of not giving up too much information? I mean, there is always -- again, we're thinking of these two in the woods. I don't know how they'd have any kind of way of watching the news, but still.

(CROSSTALK)

KOBILINSKY: Well, if they're watching the news, hopefully it's CNN, but if they are listening...

BALDWIN: Thanks, Larry.

KOBILINSKY: ... then they know what we're talking about and they will take evasive action.

I think the real issue, the dangerous issue is, they could break into a home and find a gun.

BALDWIN: Right, or a kitchen knife.

(CROSSTALK)

KOBILINSKY: And it is a dangerous thing for people to actually confront these two characters, because they have very little to lose.

BALDWIN: Tim, what is worst-case scenario?

WILLIAMS: Well, I think that's the -- he hit it on the head. The worst-case scenario is these individuals are desperate, and they're going to get more desperate as time goes on.

And that's when they're going to have to come out and act and hopefully not do anything more violent that will, you know, set a stage for them to commit more heinous crimes than they have already committed. That's the worry I think of all law enforcement and community right now, is that these individuals are going to get desperate. That's why people have to be alert.

Your previous "AMW" individual mentioned the community. They have to see things that are strange, they see individual -- these individuals, they need to call the police right away and get -- get assistance. But I think the worry for everybody is that these individuals get desperate. They have killed before and they will again if they had to.

BALDWIN: Well, the AMW, the "America's Most Wanted" former co- executive producer was making also the point that it's the little things, it's those little mistakes that members of the community need to be astute.

If you see a window on car that's shattered that really you don't think should be shattered, call police. His whole point was, if you see something that doesn't look quite right, let authorities know.

Bottom line, Larry...

(CROSSTALK)

KOBILINSKY: Bottom line, they're going to get caught. I don't see them staying out that long. There's a tremendous manhunt under way.

BALDWIN: Yes.

KOBILINSKY: And with, you know, helicopters and small aircraft, they're going down. It's just a matter of tonight, tomorrow, or another day. But they can't survive very long out there.

BALDWIN: Larry Kobilinsky, thank you so much. Tim Williams, I appreciate you as well.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Matter of time.

Coming up next, we keep talking about this woman who worked at this prison for seven years. She's being questioned in connection with this escape -- what she says about her relationship with one of these killers.

Also, investigators who train bloodhounds will join us live to explain how these dogs right now, in the woods, are working to track down these two criminals. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:14:00]

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN, back to our breaking news, this thorough search in one specific area in the woods here happening now, as these two escaped killers in Upstate New York are on the run after this dog, this bloodhound picked up on a possible scent, food wrappers.

And a possible overnight site has been discovered as well. Outside of that search area, the focus is on this woman, this is Joyce Mitchell. She worked at the prison for the past seven years. And according to a source talking to CNN familiar with this investigation, she told investigators that one of the escaped prisoners made her feel -- quote, unquote -- "special."

CNN national correspondent Deborah Feyerick, along with forensic psychologist and Dr. J. Buzz Von Ornseiner.

J. BUZZ VON ORNSEINER, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes.

BALDWIN: Known as Dr. Buzz.

Dr. Buzz, welcome to you.

And, Deb, welcome back.

VON ORNSEINER: Thanks.

BALDWIN: Let's begin with this woman. What are your sources tell you about her? She's cooperating. What else?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, she's absolutely cooperating.

What we know is, there are a couple of things that authorities have determined definitively. The first is, is that she had a cell phone that was used multiple times to call people, associates, friends known to Richard Matt. It's unclear whether in fact she's the one who actually placed the calls on their behalf or whether these two men accessed her phone and made them call -- the calls themselves. the

[15:15:12]

The second thing we know is that she has told authorities that she was the one who was supposed to be waiting there on the other side of that manhole cover when these two convicts got out of prison, and she was supposed to drive them to safety.

They could have been miles, and miles, and miles away. Now it appears they're very, very close to the prison itself.

BALDWIN: Dr. Buzz, on this woman, I was talking to a former, a retired U.S. Marshal who was saying to me earlier, Brooke, women, some women love outlaws.

VON ORNSEINER: Sure. Yes.

BALDWIN: And there is that lure, especially when you're working for I don't know how many years she might have had a relationship potentially with this one man. There is that lure, that attraction.

(CROSSTALK)

VON ORNSEINER: There is, and there's also women who feel they can change the man's personality and their temperament, and they're going into prison to help.

I mean, these are men who need protection from their own impulses and society needs protection from them. So, here's a woman who is volunteering her time to go in there and work with these individuals with this, sadly, unrealistic view that you can change someone's personality and make them into a man that is presentable and wants to work with society, not punch holes in it.

In addition to that, you -- I think it's hard for many people to realize, when you're a woman alone, or a man alone, who knows, you're in there with individual attention coming at you from this person. And this person is telling you, you are my everything, my God.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Apparently, he's pretty charismatic, according to people who have known him.

VON ORNSEINER: Yes, a lot of cunning, a lot of sly -- a lot of manipulation.

BALDWIN: Master manipulator is what I hear. (CROSSTALK)

VON ORNSEINER: A master, how he can get in your brain. How can I get over? How can I make you basically my slave?

BALDWIN: And this is the one who, by the way, also chopped up his boss, correct?

FEYERICK: This exactly the one who chopped up his boss.

And one of the people who testified against him was his girlfriend. He was able to manipulate her as well. So, and, interestingly, when in that first case, he threatened his accomplice that he would kill him absolutely, would kill him outright if he every stepped forward to tell, ultimately, the guy cracked and he did tell.

Now, whether Joyce Mitchell knew of that past, you have to wonder whether in fact she began to question, OK, I'm the only one who knows these guys are breaking out. And if I'm waiting there on the other side, what are my chances of survival?

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: She might have saved her own life.

FEYERICK: What have they done so far?

BALDWIN: Absolutely.

FEYERICK: Exactly.

BALDWIN: She might have saved her own life by not showing up in that getaway car. I thought the exact same thing.

(CROSSTALK)

VON ORNSEINER: She's smart.

FEYERICK: Yes.

BALDWIN: What about -- we heard from a news conference yesterday when the governors were speaking outside the correctional facility, they said, yes, we're talking to inmates. And in terms of prison culture, you hear a lot about snitching.

VON ORNSEINER: Yes.

BALDWIN: What's the likelihood, A, that anyone on the inside would have known about the plan, and you hear Governor Cuomo saying, well, you guys must have been heavy sleepers to not have even heard the saw -- what's the likelihood these inmates are going to talk?

VON ORNSEINER: I think it's very unlikely, because these guys are going to come back. Chances are, if they're caught, they're going to come back. They're going to be really well-thought-of inside the prison, or they will move them around. But an inmate is fearful of what those consequences will be. Every

inmate wants to get out. And they're fearful about what can happen to them.

BALDWIN: Yes, but wouldn't -- if I'm an inmate, I would be thinking, well, if I cooperate, maybe I get out earlier.

VON ORNSEINER: It depends on where they're sleeping. And it depends on if they want to go into solitary confinement for the rest of the time they're there.

Again, you're talking about survival. And I can remember bringing guys in to talk to me when I was in prison as a psychologist, and you get very tight-lipped. What's going to happen to me, ultimately?

BALDWIN: Interesting.

FEYERICK: Yes.

VON ORNSEINER: Watching my back.

FEYERICK: Right. And, also, when you think about the psychology of these two people, look, they were very -- they kept very close counsel with one another.

We have seen that happen with -- in recent terrorism cases, where the two that are collaborating are brothers. They speak to no one outside their immediate circle because the moment one person hears or knows, either they want in, or they have got the power to control the information. So the fact that these two men spent so much time together and were so close, it may have been simply to protect the nature of the plot itself.

(CROSSTALK)

FEYERICK: So, plus, they had it relatively easy inside that maximum security prison. When they go back, whether it's to Clinton Correctional or Sing Sing or anywhere else, they're -- the terms of the confinement are going to be dramatically different.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: When they are caught.

Dr. Buzz and Deb, thank you both very much. I really appreciate it.

VON ORNSEINER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Just ahead, these search teams, as we have been reporting, they're combing Upstate New York. They're trying to find these two killers.

Coming up, we will talk to investigators who actually train these bloodhounds, explain that process, how they pick up on the scent, how reliable it is. That's coming up. Also, a new development in the U.S. plan to send in more troops to

train Iraqi forces in the fight against ISIS -- what one official says about where they might be opening additional sites in Iraq. You're watching CNN. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:24:15]

BALDWIN: The U.S. role in the war on ISIS may be about to get bigger. A day after the White House floated this plans to send 450 more American troops to Iraq, we are now getting word here that the U.S. may also be sending troops to new locations as well.

So let's go straight to the Pentagon to our correspondent there, Barbara Starr.

And where, do we know, will these troops be going?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, good afternoon, Brooke.

Right now, the White House is calling it all hypothetical, but the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is telling reporters they are looking at the possibility of sending additional troops, repositioning troops to perhaps several locations in Iraq, Pentagon officials telling us maybe three or four locations.

Clearly, one may be on the road to Mosul, Iraq's second largest city in Northern Iraq, a key area that Iraqi forces want to liberate. Why we are talking about, one day later, sending even more troops to be advisers in Iraq? We just talked about that, right, 450 troops yesterday.

[15:25:13]

The idea seems to be that the Pentagon now, after all this time, is getting the sense it needs to do more on advising Iraqi troops, just basic military skills like command-and-control communications, how to send new supplies, fresh supplies of ammunition to your troops in the field when they're in combat.

So, the idea is, if you put more troops out there as advisers, closer the to front lines, all of this will go more smoothly. But -- and there's a lot of buts here -- the thing is, the Iraqi forces still, everyone will tell you in the U.S. military, need to get their act together. They need to establish well-trained troops, get them some morale, weapons, supplies, make sure they really believe in their government, and that they believe their government is behind them.

That is the key to solving this problem of lack of will to fight that we have seen in Iraq, the U.S. making its effort, but still the Pentagon saying the Iraqis have to step up -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Barbara Starr, thank you.

Back to our breaking news, back to Upstate New York -- massive manhunt under way here, the search for these two escaped killers on the run.

Next, we will talk to bloodhound trainers about how they track a scent, how they could find these murderers.

Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)