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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Latest on the Manhunt for Escaped New York Convicts; How People Can Survive on the Run; James Holmes Trial Update. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired June 11, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:10] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: And then look over at David Sweat, the second tattoo on the right, his three fingers have the IFB. It is very -- I mean significant, it's unusual, it is hard to hide the hands.

Is there something these guys can do other than wearing a shirt and wearing gloves to try to mask the fact that that's out there too?

DARRIN GIGLIO, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well I mean, yeah changing appearance is obviously a really important thing for a fugitive. Now do they have connections to where they can have these tattoos removed, do they have connections where they can have them changed to have them different.

You know, all the identifying characteristics of somebody is what's going to aid the public and finding them.

So, you know, that some - you know, changing your appearance from simple to complex, you know, changing hair color, styles, weight gain, weight lost, you know, the way you walk, the way you talk all those kinds of things. But, you know, some criminals down the road will have access to money at the time can do something extreme where there, you know, plastic surgery or there, you know, having these tattoos removed.

A good sign and another thing that investigators uses ears a lot of people don't realize how ears almost like fingerprints. They're very difficult to change and they're very identifiable. So that's another key thing if there are clear pictures from the investigators that they would probably would be using that as well if that's something down the road.

I'm very confident that they're going to be captured soon.

BANFIELD: Darrin, can I just ask you quickly, when people are on the run like this and they're obviously loath to go to places with video cameras like convenient stores to steal food or to rob to get food sources. If they don't want to break into someone's home for fear that that will also lead to detection.

Is there I mean, I can only think of restaurant dumpsters or some other source of food for them if they're not hunters, if they're not Eric Rudolph off for five years in the wood with the survival skills.

What else can they do just to get food? GIGLIO: Well, you know, a lot of times, what people can do is almost become embody the life for someone homeless. You know, how did the homeless survive. You know, dumpster diving, you know, a lot of these like restaurants or the market they throw out food, you know, do they have the knowledge to do that or can they learn how to do that. It's certainly possible. But again, you know, it has let say big brother as well, you know, always watching. Now it's all brothers and sisters who are watching, right.

Everybody, you know, is eyes and ears. Not only that we have sophisticated surveillance systems. Everybody has their cellphones. And, you know, we certainly urge in the public to reach out with any kind of tips to look for any of these kinds of strange behaviors as well.

BANFIELD: Well I certainly appreciate it. Thank you so much Darrin Giglio and Larry Koblinsky for your insights.

And we're just continuing to show you these pictures of the authorities. Not only shutdown roads but also are monitoring cars that pass by, looking in back windows, looking in trunks et cetera, residents in these deeply wooded area regularly approached by troopers and officers who say "I'm having a look, I hope you'll comply," and many of them obviously all too happy to comply, no one wants to live among two dangerous killers who are disparate to do anything to stay out of that prison they escaped earlier this week.

Coming up, I'm going to take you back to the street, back to the neighborhood, back to the area in West Plattsburgh New York, where our Jason Carroll is standing by where the authorities are on the scent. The dogs have hit a mark, they know who they're going after and they know they've got at least something on where these guys maybe.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:37:09] BANFIELD: I want to take you back now to our breaking news of the hour potentially a huge break in that manhunt for two escaped murderers in Upstate New York.

Police have set up what call a large parameter around a wooded site that's just east of the town of Dannemora where the bloodhounds have hit a mark.

Today they picked up what may just be the scent of Richard Matt and or David Sweat, those two convicts.

And what search teams also found food wrappers possibly footprints or a boot print. And maybe even more interestingly a massive down area of grass, suggesting that that may have been a place where one or two maybe bedded down for the night.

CNN's Jason Carroll is watching the goings on, he in the town of West Plattsburgh. I'm also joined by CNN Law Enforcement Analyst and Retired New York Police Detective Harry Houck.

Harry, I'll ask you to standby for a moment. Jason straight out to you live on the site.

We see so many vehicles live in our shots coming and going behind you in the presence of officers. One of those residents is just saying the officers are his front yard and backyard. Are they coming up with anything more since these last finds?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well they're all over the place. And they have to be because this is one of the most significant leads that they've had today. We're right along route 374 here. You can see where the checkpoint is. It is been shutdown, blocked off ever since last evening that is when this first came to life, this new evidence, possible evidence and a very significant lead as investigators now believe that these dogs have keyed in on a scent from Richard Matt and or David Sweat.

They believe that they found this boot or shoe print, food wrappers, multiple food wrappers. And here's what's key about this Ashleigh, they believe the materials that they found so far are fresh. And that's very important because that could possibly mean. And again I use the word possibly, possibly mean that Richard Matt and or David Sweat have been in the area recently.

As you can imagine that's very unsettling to the folks who live in Dannemora, that is the community, that is right where the prison is located. Speaking to people there, they have showed us all along, they will not rest until these two men are caught.

BANFIELD: And about...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's scary I mean they literally could've been in my backyard the whole time running through, you know, making their way by the -- keep going where they're located now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think law enforcement is very effective so I wasn't concerned at all on the onset. I have concerns now, but I do think they're doing the best they can this under circumstances.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: Number of people on the edge as you can imagine. But also searchers and New York's governor are asking for the public even though they are feeling nervous about what's going on because still be vigilant if they see anything at all to report it right away.

[12:40:03] The search though is continuing but it's still this is the most significant lead investigators have had to date, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Yeah, Jason hold on don't go anywhere. Harry Houck if you could weigh in on something Josh Parker just said to us, he is a resident in this area, who's been basically, in sort of a lock down, they are able to go to work in school but one daughter, you know, he's got three daughters, 10, 13 and 16, her school has been canceled, he does a gun sweep of this house before those children and his wife come into that home. And he said there was an officer outside of his home that has been at least on a 24 hour watch. How personal is this for police officers and authorities when they are on the hunt for two guys like that?

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Well, it's very personal because, you know, these guys only have two options now, either surrender, if they're in this area either surrender or commit a crime now. So you've got every residence there, where the perpetrators couldn't make their way to a home and commit a crime to be able to get away.

So they have the state police at every home location hoping that these guys will somehow try and make their way to a home and break in and the police will be able to catch them. So that man is a very smart man to be able to do that everyday, they've never allow these people have weapons up there too. So if they get into a house, where there's nobody home or when there's somebody home and they went up home and hostage.

They probably going to be able to grab a hold of weapon. So, and another thing, I don't know if Matt is a real marine or not? He's got a marine tattoo, all right. But if he was in the Marine Corps like me, they teach you how to survive in the jungle and in the woods so.

BANFIELD: But we do know he's got some background in the marines. I'm not sure how far, I'll look into it to find out how far into the weapon. I think that tattoo is significant, he's got a Mexico forever tattoo on his back, he's got a heart tattoo on his chest, and on his left shoulder as we'll and then his got that Marine Corps insignia on his right shoulder as well.

And then for David Sweat, he's got tattoos on his left bicep as you can see here, but then the significant tattoos on those right fingers on the fingers of his right hand, tattoos saying IFB, very, very identifiable, clearly he's not got access to make up. But if there is someway he is able to, you know, to mask those, well also trying to get food and somehow.

HOUCK: Right Ashleigh, you know, they're rather hungry, they need water, they got to go to the bathroom, all right, no sense to be picked up by the dogs, all right. So if they are in this area, and the police have them cornered in, they're probably catch them sometime today or tonight, if they are there.

We don't know how long that bedding place that they identified has been there, was it used once, do they keep on going back there to sleep every night and there watching that now, so we're be able to find out.

BANFIELD: All right, Harry Houck stay on it with us, if you will, Jason Carroll, also going to stay on it and update, when you find more information.

And we are folks getting information in moment by moment as the police release, but they are very busy doing the job as suppose to updating the media. But clearly they want the people in that community to know when their fears can end. And they certainly want those two people back behind bars.

Thank you Jason and thank you Harry, a lot more news ahead as well. Stay tuned we're back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:47:35] BANFIELD: Our breaking news. We continue to follow with this live picture courtesy WTEN, in West Plattsburgh New York, Upstate New York the site, where authorities believe they maybe zeroing in, on the scent at least of two escaped murderers.

Convicts who tunneled their way out of a prison in Upstate New York. And have been on the run for six days. Traffic had to slow down because they are leaving no stone unturned they are checking every vehicle, they are checking the woods, they are in the air, they are on the ground, hundreds of authorities after finding not only a few wrappers that may have belong to these inmates in the woods. But also a boot or shoe print, the scent that was picked up by the bloodhounds and a depressed area of the ground where they may have actually bedded down.

So we're continuing to watch this as they close in on the perimeter. And it's only about 3 miles from the actual prison itself, so we'll continue to update all day long and as we get information here on CNN.

And I also want to take you to Orlando Florida, where a man there says, police officers pepper sprayed him and than tased him and then kicked him repeatedly as he sat on the ground over and over again, this happening. But what started this tussle, there are a couple of different stories, the tasing, the kicking they'll all recorded by witnesses with cameras.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(OFF-MIKE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Last Thursday in downtown Orlando, that is Noel Carter lying on the ground. Shouting for an off duty policeman to stop kicking him as he sat on a curve, outside of a night club.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(OFF-MIKE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So this is a different angle, a different shot, Noel Carter running away from those officers prior to what you just saw, he was shouting at them or they were shouting at him to get on the ground. And they were deploying there tasers at that point. And this is what Noel Carter looked like when he was finally arrested and brought in and booked.

Mr Carter was on CNN this morning. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NOEL CARTER, KICKED BY ORLANDO POLICE OFFICER: You an clearly see that I sat on the curve, he hovers over me for two seconds and waits for the other officer to approach before he literally stomps me in the head. And the other cop comes up and stomps me in the head again. And they continue to brutalize me at that point, and literally beat me like a dog in the street.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So that's one side of the story, the police say there is another side as well.

[12:50:02] The say Mr. Carter was drunk, he denies that. The police say that Mr. Carter is getting physical with a woman, he denies that. But the woman does say he was drunk.

The police involved are still on duty. And their boss says that he have no intention right now of doing anything to kick them off of the force.

Orlando's Police Chief instead says that in the interest of transparency he has outside investigators, from a different jurisdictions Florida Department of Law Enforcement to help work this case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JOHN MINA, ORLANDO POLICE DEPARTMENT: There's a lot more of the story beginning at the night club, when Mr. Carter was intoxicated, put his hands on a woman. Our officers tried to interfere. There's a video and witness statements to say he resisted our officers efforts, fled the scene. And beyond that, he was, at one point, on top of one of our officers and punched another officer.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: So what we see in one of these videos he seems sitting on the curb.

That's the video that obviously a lot of people are pointing to when the officer kicks him while he's sitting on the curb.

As part of his attorney said pretty clearly, said this, "The police department is not trained to beat, punch, kick, tase people who are in a passive position. There's nowhere in the training matrix that you will ever see that."

So, is it ever OK to kick someone when they're passively -- seemingly passively sitting on a curb? Explain why? Explain that moment to us, from your perspective.

MINA: Well, like I said that's only a small piece of the picture. And I'm not going to comment until I have the full and complete investigation.

BOLDUAN: The attorney though says you don't need to know the totally of the situation to understand in that moment what was happening right there is wrong. Do you disagree?

MINA: Of course, you need the totally of the circumstances. Like I said, this individual -- the incident didn't start right there. This individual, Mr. Carter, have fought with officers and punched one of our officers, he was on top of one of our officers, fled, had tried to pull out taser prongs when he was tased.

So there's a lot more of the story.

But like I said, let's -- let the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, you know, third party independent, you know, do the entire investigation. And let's -- and all of those findings will be made public.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The police chief in Orlando.

We're going to continue that story.

And also up next, on the witness stand today, she was James Holmes girlfriend before that theater massacre. Wait until you hear where he took her on their first date.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:56:16] BANFIELD: The jury in the James Holmes' trial is hearing from the person who may just know him best, his ex-girlfriend.

Holmes says his break-up with fellow graduate student, Gargi Datta, sent him into a depressive spiral that led him to attacking a crowded Colorado movie theater.

Datta testified that her first date with Holmes was to a horror film festival. And she also explained how Holmes struggled with social anxiety.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE BRAUCHLER, PROSECUTION: During the time that you were with him, did the defendant express to you concerns about his social anxiety, inability to interact with people in public?

GARGI DATTA, HOLMES' EX-GIRLFRIEND: Yes. He recognized that he had issues interacting with people in public. And he thought other people were judging him for it.

BAUCHLER: Now, did you make a recommendation to him based on these expressed concerns?

DATTA: That and some other concerns he had, I told him to go to see a therapist. It might be better for him. It might help him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Certainly, a position she never wanted to be in. And joining me now to talk about the Holmes' trial in this latest development, CNN's Legal Analyst Paul Callan and Mel Robbins.

Look, I understand that Mr. Holmes is terribly sick, just about anybody who commits a killing or a murder has to have some element of mental illness.

However, the standard in that courtroom is that he had to have known the difference between right and wrong.

And Ms. Datta has a message that she is eventually, at some point, if not, any moment, is going to be able to read to this jury saying, "You take away life and your human capital is limitless." This is what he said to her in text, "You take away life and your human capital is limitless."

I hate to say the nail in the coffin, but this is pretty obvious.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well. And we've heard this theme before, you know, his whole idea was that when you kill human beings, if they're facing you when you shoot them, you inherit their human capital.

As a matter of fact, he reference...

BANFIELD: Inherit or steal?

CALLAN: Well, steal because he said he didn't shoot police officers who had their backs to him because he couldn't inherit their capital.

Now, the prosecutors will say...

BANFIELD: Again, inherit or steal? Because inheriting isn't wrong and stealing is wrong.

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: But here's the problem...

CALLAN: Well, steal. OK. But -- no, no, no let me -- please let finish.

ROBBINS: No.

CALLAN: So, I haven't even been in my point yet.

My point is that when you take somebody's human capital by shooting them that demonstrates right from wrong. You're stealing it.

So, your point is well taken. It's proved sanity.

ROBBINS: Unless you are so crazy in the head that you don't know right from wrong and you're discussing death in terms of human capital which you think you've been absorbed, which is completely out of the realm.

All you have to do is show those photos that we were showing, OK and to say, "This guy didn't know right from wrong. He was insane." And by the way, the standard is actually that the prosecution has to prove that he was sane beyond the reasonable doubt.

Is there one juror on that jury that's going to say, "If they proved beyond the reasonable doubt that he was sane?"

BANFIELD: No.

CALLAN: No, there isn't. No, there isn't, Mel. There isn't.

BANFIELD: No. I'm going to tell you why, because he kevlared virtually every inch of his skin before he went in and perpetuated these killings. He found an escape routes. He planned the booby traps. He even said I've got spikes trips in my car in case they're chasing me.

Mel, how can that not be someone who knows inherently everything I'm doing is wrong?

ROBBINS: It's a very strong case. He also did call the 800 number they're alleging for a hotline for mental illness, nobody picked up.

So I think that whether or not they prove he's sane is he going to get to death penalty, that's the bigger case.

BANFIELD: That part, I think, mitigates. You're absolutely right.

CALLAN: Well, that's part two.

BANFIELD: I think you're right...

CALLAN: But this proves he knows the difference between...

ROBBINS: But it's going away forever. I don't think...

CALLAN: He knows the difference between right and wrong.

ROBBINS: ... going to kill. I don't know he's kidding the death penalty. I don't know that he knew the difference between right and wrong. I think he was insane.

BANFIELD: If you're the juror that he wants to pick for his next trial...

[13:00:00] CALLAN: Tell me about it -- not from that prosecutor, OK...

BANFIELD: We got to go guys. Thank you very much Paul Callan and Mel.

CALLAN: OK.

BANFIELD: I always loved having the two of you because you're just -- you're perfect with each other.

Thank you for watching everyone. You're perfect for us. Brianna Keilar is going to take over the helm. She's coming up right now.