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NAACP Controversy; Manhunt. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired June 12, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: What did he tell you?

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: We spoke with Andrew Wylie, the district attorney here in Clinton County, just a short time.

We were talking about Lyle Mitchell, because there were a lot of questions surrounding him. And he did confirm to me that Joyce Mitchell's husband is being looked at for his role in this escape plan.

I asked him directly, is he involved? And he said they are getting information through interviews and from other sources that he not only could have been involved, but possibly also just had knowledge of it as well.

They have information about his role. They said -- he said -- that they have information about what part in this he may have played. And also, Brooke, one more interesting note. As you mentioned, he works at the prison. Not only does Lyle Mitchell work maintenance at the prison, but he works maintenance at the prison here in the tailoring block, which is the very same block where Joyce Mitchell works and where she apparently got to know very well both of these fugitives, David Sweat and Richard Matt.

David Sweat was moved out of the tailoring block, but Richard Sweat (sic), the DA confirmed for me today, has always worked in that tailoring block with Joyce Mitchell.

BALDWIN: And just staying on this, let me follow up with -- I think it's just worth reminding our viewers that this woman who is being questioned who apparently on her own volition is cooperating being incredibly with investigators, who is divulging this information, she has yet to hire an attorney. Yes?

KAYE: That's from what I understand. He wouldn't talk much about her. He says that the main thing he was saying is that maybe she -- she is cooperating, certainly. She's been questioned a lot and they think that maybe she's talking because she might feel guilty about her role.

He said he didn't want to put words in her mouth, but she certainly is talking to them. It's unclear from the district attorney, though, if Lyle Mitchell has been questioned. But they are certainly investigating him. BALDWIN: Yes, listening to the DA on our air this morning, he said

potential charges for her, conspiracy for escape and providing prison contraband. Randi Kaye, in a very rainy Dannemora, New York, thank you so much.

Let's discuss all of this here, the manhunt, what is happening.

I have got John Clark, retired chief deputy U.S. Marshal, and also with me, I have Lanny DePaul -- Lenny DePaul -- forgive me -- former commander U.S. Marshals Regional Fugitive Task Force for both New York and New Jersey.

So, John, to you first. I think one thing we haven't really explored much today is here we are just about day seven, it's rainy, it's cooler, these two have no clue how to survive the wilderness, from what we understand. One of them takes a prescription each and every day for back pain. I don't know how much food they packed or how much they planned beyond getting out of that fence. But what do you think their mind-set is at this point?

JOHN CLARK, FORMER DIRECTOR, U.S. MARSHALS SERVICE: It's certainly been a long week for the escapees and for the law enforcement investigators that are on the scene. But the toll is going to be much more on the escapees, especially if he hasn't had his meds.

They wouldn't have been able to pack out a lot of food, but they have been having to scramble around. Obviously, their plan fell apart once they came out of the manhole because they didn't have the transportation that they expected, they didn't have the resources, they didn't have the food. So they are having to really scramble around to get their basic human needs met, so there's a lot of pressure on them, which is to the advantage of law enforcement.

BALDWIN: I just want to bring you in on that as well because you were really fascinating, as we were discussing, on mind-set. You were also considering the possibility if they end up getting cornered, suicide by cop, these are all the things that these task force members have to think about.

LENNY DEPAUL, FORMER COMMANDER, NEW YORK/NEW JERSEY REGIONAL FUGITIVE FORCE: There's a millions things racing through their minds as we speak, absolutely. The guys on the perimeter have a certain thing that is racing through their minds, the SWAT teams that are doing the push through the woods if they confront these guys. So, absolutely.

And as John said, the provisions probably aren't -- and then let's make sure that we are taking everything into consideration, that it is them in this perimeter, and hopefully that is the case, and, if so, yes, what is going to happen when they do get found? Are they going to split up if they are together? That's going to -- law enforcement is going to go into two different directions. It's going to -- the canines' scent is going to get messed up, so a lot of what-ifs going on still.

BALDWIN: On -- John, on the weather -- and I was just talking to someone in a helicopter who is very familiar with this infrared and also thermal imaging. And he was saying to me it's beneficial because of the rain because it cooled things down, which would improve the possibility of picking something up on the ground.

How do you think the rain is affecting investigators and also these two escapees?

CLARK: The rain will not necessarily have an impact on investigators.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: The bloodhounds?

CLARK: Because they are going to be outfitted with -- with their Gore-Tex outfits, things like that, boots. They're properly equipped, but it's going to have less of an impact on them.

But for the escapees, they are not going to have the same resources unless they have been able to find shelter in a cottage or some place where they are holed up. Then it's going to have less of an impact. But if they are out there in the elements and it's cool, it's rainy, it's going to have -- you know, force them, especially if one is already predisposed to having back pain and things like that, the cold and the rain are certainly not going to help him out at all.

[15:05:05]

BALDWIN: John, what about the rain and the bloodhounds? Does that affect scent?

CLARK: I don't believe that it will be that detrimental to the canines, no. If -- they can be very effective regardless of the elements. It may detract them a little bit, but they are pretty spot on. They are really a great resource.

BALDWIN: OK.

And then, Lenny, he mentioned these cabins. This is a beautiful part of the state of New York, seasonal area for folks who spend summers there. So, from what I understand, not a lot of people are in their summer homes as of yet, which is a good thing in the case that these two have a wild idea to hole up in one of them, as we saw in Big Bear with Christopher Dorner some years ago.

So on the ground among this task force, there are, what, hostage negotiators? What are they thinking about?

DEPAUL: Oh, they have a variety of resources available, and the men and women that are downrange that are inside the perimeter, they are thinking about all of this.

They are taking it step by step. If they confront or if they stumble onto a cabin that is not occupied at this point, these guys could be in there . Infrared is not going to pick them up, as you heard from the chopper and pilot and whatnot.

So, it will tighten up a little perimeter on that cabin or on that summer home that hasn't been occupied yet and hopefully get in there and search it and so on. But it's a tough, tough job for law enforcement as we speak. They are out there doing a great job. But they certainly -- there's a lot going on.

BALDWIN: I'm also taking, John, we were -- when you consider when these two actually were locked up, they don't even know what an iPhone is. Or maybe they -- I don't know. Maybe they have access to the Internet. Maybe people are walking around and -- but I don't know if they are looking for pay phones. And those are sort of long gone.

This is, I imagine, a shock to their systems and culturally trying to figure out how to maneuver. Presumably, they don't have cell phones, although I guess this alleged accomplice, her cell phone was used as part of this whole plot. What do you think is the biggest challenge right now for investigators?

DEPAUL: The biggest challenge for the investigators is just really being patient and staying the course that they are on.

It's -- the theory is, currently, that they are still within the perimeter. And, as Lenny has previously described to you, the perimeter is always a little bit dynamic. It will contract, it will expand. They will shift the focus.

BALDWIN: What does that mean?

DEPAUL: That it's not static, that it's not -- that they will be collapsing it down tighter and tighter, you know, as -- if they zero in on an area within the perimeter where they believe they are, but if circumstances then pop up that would indicate that they are in a different area within the perimeter, then you would shift the focus within it again.

So, it's a constantly evolving thing based on the information, the facts that you have.

BALDWIN: OK. John Clark, Lenny DePaul, thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

CLARK: Thank you. Thank you.

BALDWIN: Just ahead, as we mentioned, talked about the technology involving these helicopters. We will take you live inside this chopper that does infrared images during these kinds of searches, like there in New York. See how they are tracking these guys.

Plus, did she fake her race? A couple says an NAACP leader is actually a white woman. How do they know? She's their daughter -- coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:12:48]

BALDWIN: A Spokane, Washington, leader, in the NAACP has caused quite the uproar. She has just been outed by her white family as passing for black.

Take a look for yourself. We will show you a picture of 37-year-old Rachel Dolezal. The Montana native's parents gave us the picture here on the left side of your screen. That's her as a young girl. On the right, this is Rachel today.

Now, this all began to unravel when our CNN affiliate KXLY reported that she lied about her race on a city job application. When the TV station confronted her, here's what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: I'm wondering if your dad really is an African-American man.

RACHEL DOLEZAL, PRESIDENT, SPOKANE NAACP: That's a very -- I mean, I don't know what you're implying.

QUESTION: Are you African-American?

RACHEL DOLEZAL: I don't -- I don't understand the question.

QUESTION: Are your parents, are they white?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right.

So CNN spoke with this woman's parents, and they said they cannot explain why she would want to lie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL, FATHER: We are -- we are confirming the truth. We are her birth parents and we do not understand why she feels it's necessary to misrepresent her ethnicity.

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL, MOTHER: She has never claimed to be biracial or African-American in our presence.

A lot of people knew that Rachel was white, and for a while it seemed like she was just doing more of an artistic, expressive representation of her identifying with African-Americans by her hair in extensions and things like that. But when it started to be claims that she was African-American, then, as family, we didn't take the initiative to report her doing that.

But there were many other people from her hometown and from the area that knew that she was not African-American and no one of them spoke up either.

L. DOLEZAL: And they were just puzzled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The parents said that they haven't spoken with their daughter and the NAACP did issue a statement standing by her leadership role.

[15:15:02]

Joining me now, Melissa Luck, the executive producer at that CNN affiliate KXLY, and I also have with me CNN political commentator and Morehouse College professor Marc Lamont Hill.

But, Melissa, got a couple of questions for you first. We just played the exchange with your reporter confronting her over that job and asking specifically about her parents. How did he even know to ask about the ethnicity of her parents? How did this begin?

MELISSA LUCK, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, KXLY: Well, we have been covering Rachel Dolezal in this country for six years or more. It started when she worked with a human rights task force in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.

And around that time, she had made several claims that she was a victim of a hate crime. So, we looked into the stories then, obviously, as we would, and none of those cases went anywhere. There was always an explanation or the cases were dismissed for insufficient evidence.

And she came to Spokane and she worked here as an instructor at some local colleges, then became involved in the NAACP. We had always had concerns about the hate crime reports, and then we started to hear from sources wondering about her ethnicity, and that's when it all came out earlier this week.

We were questioning her. She had applied for and is serving on the police ombudsman commission, a police oversight committee here. And on that application, which is right in front of me, she checked that she is black. And we had seen pictures of her parents and seen her birth certification and we had a chance to ask her.

BALDWIN: OK. So, hang on a second. Let me back you up. When you're going back to Idaho, was she self-reporting these hate crimes? Was she alleging that she was being targeted because -- was she saying she was black?

LUCK: Yes.

She said -- in one, she said that she found a noose on her property.

BALDWIN: Wow.

LUCK: She told police in that case she thought it was because of her -- quote -- "ethnicity" and her work with the human rights task force.

What came out in that police report is that the person who owned the property had hung the rope, he says, a year before as a way to dress deer after he was hunting and he told police she knew that is what it was and that she reported it anyway.

BALDWIN: OK.

LUCK: That case didn't go anywhere. But when she talks about it now, she says she was the victim of hate crimes, starting with that incident.

BALDWIN: OK.

So, then, Melissa, with the NAACP position -- and, listen, I was talking to the NAACP last hour. It was founded, whites, blacks. You can be -- you don't have to be an African-American to lead a chapter of the NAACP. That said, do you know if in this elected position, did she misrepresent herself within the community? Do you know?

LUCK: I don't know if she specifically did to the NAACP.

I do know in writings that she has online, in biographies, in many interviews she's done, she does identify herself as black. I don't know specifically what she told the NAACP. I do know, because of a public records request, that that is how she represented herself to the city of Spokane and that's why they have launched an investigation to see if she violated their code of ethics to serve on this board.

BALDWIN: OK. Melissa, stay with me.

Marc Lamont Hill, this is a head-scratcher. I know it's infuriating some people. Some people are, I don't know, almost laughing about this. I have so many questions for you. I guess when you first heard of about it, what was your -- what did you think?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I laughed. I said black Twitter is going to go nuts.

BALDWIN: There you go.

HILL: And sure enough it did, I mean, because I think there's a way in which there is something comic about this.

But it still speaks to a broader question and challenge of race in this country. The reason why it's partly a head-scratcher is because historically we have always had people who passed, but passing has been a practice that people use to get away from social misery. People passed to avoid Jim Crow in the South. People passed to be able to get access to jobs, to be able to have living wages, to get health care, housing, to get away from lynching.

And so it's sort of bizarre that someone would try to opt in. So, that is why some people are scratching their heads. But this is bizarre, and I think a lot of this has to do with the family issue. Whatever beef she and her parents...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: And we don't know fully know that.

By the way, by the way, Melissa, do we know? There is some kind of family issue. Do we know what the issue is?

LUCK: She's made claims in the past that she was abused by them, that she was beaten because of the color of her skin. So, when you add that, because the color of her skin, it calls everything else into question that she says before that.

BALDWIN: What? I hadn't heard that.

OK, Marc Lamont Hill, where were we?

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Go ahead.

HILL: Yes. So, I don't know what the truth -- I don't know what the truth is with regard to her family situation, but I do know that it raises another question in terms of motive for why her parents would come out with this information and perhaps why she's distanced herself from her parents.

But at the core here, there is more at stake than just her individual choice. And I think that is what we have to remember. This isn't just about an individual white woman who decided that she wanted to try on a different identity.

If that were the case, that would be her business. I would say go ahead. But there are other people's lives at stake. But for someone who is a black advocate, to go ahead and get elected to a board to advocate for black people, but deny black people the self- determination to decide who they want to elect, is a problem.

As you said, plenty of white people have led NAACPs, but we knew they were white. Just give me the choice.

BALDWIN: That's the difference. Right? That's the difference.

HILL: Yes.

BALDWIN: And, finally, I just -- I had to ask you. I saw this question that popped up on Twitter today and I had never heard of it before, transracial. Did you see this?

[15:20:02]

HILL: Transracial is -- first, I'm aware of the term, but it seems to me that this is a way to deny and duck and dodge the social effects of and impacts of and realities of race.

You know, race is a social construct. So, people say, oh, it's not real. No, race is very real. You can't just say, hey, I'm black today, because you don't have the burden of it. This woman Rachel didn't grow up in a world where she was taught she had the wrong hips and lips and nose. She didn't have dolls that didn't match her body image.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: What if she says she relates more, for whatever reason? What if she says her three -- or she has four siblings, three of whom African-American, one Haitian, and she felt close with them?

I'm just -- I don't know that. I can't get inside of what she's thinking. But I'm just playing devil's advocate.

HILL: Right.

That's a hypothetical that is counterfactual, though, right? If she had said that, we wouldn't be on CNN. If she said, hey, I'm a white woman that really loves black people, she would just be Iggy Azalea, and we would all be clapping or booing or doing whatever we do.

(LAUGHTER)

HILL: But she took it to another level.

BALDWIN: Oh, my goodness, I wish I had more time. Marc Lamont Hill and Melissa Luck, thank you so much. We're going to stay on this.

Melissa Luck from our affiliate there in Spokane, Washington, appreciate both of you.

Next, the search for these escaped convicts in New York, what it is like inside one of these police choppers using this infrared technology. We will show you how they are looking to detect these two escapees on the ground by simply their body heat -- a live demo coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:34]

BALDWIN: We're back with our breaking news in this hunt for these escaped killers.

We now have confirmation from a source that the prison worker accused being an accomplice in this whole escape was in a relationship with not just one, but both of these men. That source telling us -- quote -- "It's unclear" -- OK -- "it's unclear which one she favored." That is a quote.

As for the hunt, 800 officers are now sweeping a five-square-mile area after bloodhounds picked up a scent just a mile from that prison, that Clinton Correctional Facility. You have helicopters scouring the woods and farmland using this heat-seeking technology.

How does this work? We sent a crew up into a chopper to find out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LUCA VULLO, DEKALB COUNTY POLICE: The first thing we're going to do is, while we're looking out, look -- keep trying to get a visual of them, we're going to set up our perimeter of other officers, ground units.

We're going to get them set up on all the surrounding streets as close by as we can and kind of make the noose, get the noose set up, so we can get that set, or a perimeter, so they can't escape from there.

Next thing we will do, usually on a call like that, we're already going to have canine en route, the dogs en route. And then we will be on scene as well getting ready to do the infrared camera to start searching.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The man whose voice you just heard, Luca Vullo. He is a pilot with the DeKalb County Police Aerial Support Division there in Georgia, along with DeKalb County public safety director, and CNN law enforcement analyst Cedric Alexander, who is with me by phone.

So, Luca, let me just start with you. We have got you in front of that chopper. Can you show me how this works?

VULLO: Yes, ma'am. Brooke, I will show you this, our control that we use in a helicopter, disconnected, of course.

It's called our laptop controller. Out TFO, or tactical flight officer, is going to be in the left seat using the camera to monitor. And there's all these array of buttons and knobs looking for our guys in the woods, our bad guy.

And I was told earlier this is going to be looking for a heat source or infrared heat signatures. As far as the camera, for our daylight camera we use during daylight obviously. Up here is going to be all our infrared controllers, over here just the -- the gimbal. It actually controls the camera, turn it around, so we can turn look different directions.

BALDWIN: All right. You mentioned daylight camera. Does it matter, Luca, if it's -- is it better for you all at night or during the day?

VULLO: For the infrared, preferably night.

Things are usually a bit cooler at night and we can see a little bit better. During the day, you get the heat soak from the sun and the ground. Some of the things, even rocks, can blend -- make other guys blend in. So,, again, nighttime preferable, but we can use it during the day. It's just a little bit more difficult for the operator.

BALDWIN: How close to the ground are these choppers hovering?

VULLO: Most times, about 500 feet, maybe a little bit higher. At night, we will -- personally, we will operate about 1,800 feet or something like 800 feet off the ground. And we get a pretty good picture of the scene from that elevation.

BALDWIN: All right.

So, the issue is -- and I'm looking at the screen on the right side of our screen which translate I guess some of the thermal images. Listen, this is Upstate New York. This is bear country and other obviously wildlife. When you detect something on the ground, you don't want to have a false lead. How do you determine what is a human, what's a bear?

VULLO: Exactly. We find the heat source, and we're not sure know what it is, we will

try to spend a few more seconds on it to determine what it is. Is it wildlife? Or it could be, again, a rock that soaked the heat up from the day.

If we can figure out what it is, we will do that first before we send an officer in, one, so we're not wasting resources. And, two, if it's a bear, we don't want them walking in on a bear unannounced.

BALDWIN: No, you would not.

Luca, stay with me.

Cedric Alexander, you're on the phone.

We're talking about 800 officers, task force guys, FBI, different jurisdictions all on the ground searching through these woods. You also, though, I'm sure, are keeping in mind the mind-set of these two criminals. They don't know how to survive in the woods. It's been rainy. This is just about day seven.

So what would you be thinking if you were on the ground looking for them?

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, here's what I do know, is that they are not going to let up on that search and, if anything, that search is going to continue to intensify over time, Brooke, because what is going to happen, that each day go by, the more inclement the weather becomes, quite frankly, the more difficult it is going to be for those two murderers out there to survive in that weather.

I just think it's just a matter of time now before they are captured. But, in the interim, I think it's important to note too as well that, as this -- as this search continues, it's going to intensify with more and more personnel, if needed.

But nothing is going to let up on this search.